I have made an offer on a house where there has been a very heavy smoker living for a number of years. The originally white popcorn ceiling is now yellow over the entire surface. There is so much nicotine on the ceiling that it is running black streaks down the wall. The people at the local hardware store where I usually buy my paint have recommended the Zinsser B.I.N. saying its the only primer that will block the nicotine stain, and as you stated it is very expensive. Would I be able to paint the ceiling with dewaxed shellac to cover the smoke stain ,(and smell) without cleaning? or would you recommend removing the popcorn and cleaning with TSP detergent?
I asked Gail to repost in the DIY forum, not realizing the post was already in the DIY forum. But this really deserves its own separate discussion, mostly because I'm about to lay out some pretty controversial realities as I see them.
I think what should be stated first out is that the normal flipper quick-fix solution would be to B-I-N prime that ceiling up, paint it reel gud, and sell the joint. This is not appropriate for a long-term buy-and-hold, because the quick-fix solution will begin to fail rather quickly (give it a year or two) and after maybe five years we're talking some spectacular-spectacular failure. Any disagreement on that?
I would scrape the popcorn ceiling, so it is flat and go from there. You may need to put a special layer of primer down such as kilz to block any stains.
I would scrape the popcorn ceiling, so it is flat and go from there. You may need to put a special layer of primer down such as kilz to block any stains.
I want to start by addressing the nicotine. First of all, those black streaks while sickeningly high in nicotine (and I mean that literally, you'll get sick with too much exposure) are actually tar residues from tobacco smoke. They are greasy and slippery and notoriously difficult to lock down with primer. And once they're properly concentrated, they're a health hazard. If it's at all possible, you want those residues gone in a buy-and-hold. That's why my recommendation to use TSP here, which is not the safest cleaner out there, always stands to get rid of nicotine residue.
TSP also does something else: at high concentrations and when it's had a chance to soak, it significantly softens latex paint, primer, and all sorts of binders. That property will often become extremely useful when you go after the popcorn.
Lagrangeville, NY · Member since 2017 · 144 posts · 218 votes
6y
Had a house with a similar situation. Yellow/black ceiling in family room from a smoker. We cleaned it really well with TSP, then we primed it with Killz oil primer. That primer was potent. Then we hit it with 2 coats of behr ceiling paint, the only spots left are the white oil primer spots on my face. It took a few weeks to get rid of those but the ceiling looks great
Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
6y
Depending on the height of the room, I have had good success having my drywaller encapsulate it by going right over it with 1/4" drywall and refinishing the ceiling. I won't go that route on ceilings less than 8 feet but on taller ones no one knows the difference, and you don't have to get into asbestos worries in the compound, popcorn, or insulation above the drywall in the attic. Not to mention the dust, mess, cleanup, and time involved.
Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
6y
There are multiple kinds of popcorn ceilings, multiple textured finishes that have been used over the years in common residential building applications. The thing that they all have in common is that they started as and have always primarily been a way to hide flaws in the finishing of a ceiling. Beneath a large percentage of popcorn ceilings, there's a problem lurking. The popcorn is not there primarily for decoration or to deaden sound from above, although there was a time (late 70s, early 80s) when a lot of people did think that a sprayed-on popcorn ceiling finish was the classy thing to do in your house, along with swag carpeting, puke-green toilets, whole-wall murals, painted representations of wood down the sides of your station wagon, and those forever leaking waterbeds.
So when you commit to scraping off a popcorn ceiling, you have to accept that you're probably going to find an additional problem under it. Poor or nonexistent drywall finishing in cheap, tract-built properties from 1950 on, damaged plaster from before that.
For removal purposes, there are only two kinds of popcorn ceiling: the painted-over hard ones and the still-unpainted easy ones.
Depending on the height of the room, I have had good success having my drywaller encapsulate it by going right over it with 1/4" drywall and refinishing the ceiling. I won't go that route on ceilings less than 8 feet but on taller ones no one knows the difference, and you don't have to get into asbestos worries in the compound, popcorn, or insulation above the drywall in the attic. Not to mention the dust, mess, cleanup, and time involved.
Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
6y
As @JD Martin has pointed out, a main concern that you should have over scraping a popcorn finish is that if the finish was put in pre-1977, there's a good chance that there's asbestos in it. For me as a DIY investor, that means I test it with a kit and if it passes, I get rid of it. But if it doesn't, your best bet is to cover it up, "encapsulate" it, as is the term in the asbestos removal industry. The easiest way to do this is to get a gyp jack, also known as a drywall life, and screw in 1/4 in. drywall over the existing ceiling, then finish it. In older houses where the ceiling is usually 8 feet tall or higher, this is practically invisible. A lot of people who worry about working with drywall choose instead to put in a dropped ceiling with acoustic tiles. It looks ugly but it handles the problem nicely.
An important point to understand is that, pre-1977, the joint compound used to finish the ceiling could also have asbestos in it. I hope by this stage popcorn removal isn't looking as easy and simple a decision to make as the HGTV shows usually make it out to be.
Investor · Akron, OH · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes
6y
If I was going to just cover it up with 1/4" drywall (which I do understand if it contains asbestos) but then I'd still (thoroughly) coat that ceiling with zinsser bin shellac to avoid any possibility of off-gassing-- that smell can be mighty persistent.
Investor · IL · Member since 2019 · 151 posts · 135 votes
6y
This house was built in 1989, I am thinking they banned asbestos popcorn ceilings in the late 70's. Still as I have not bought the house yet, would it be prudent to test it as part of the inspection?
Sorry Jim K. if I had read all the way through I would have seen you have already said '77 was when they banned it.
Yeah, but this is great information. It's a late 80s house, no asbestos, and the popcorn is probably unpainted, which is going to make removing it easier. This probably also means the drywall ceiling under the popcorn is either going to be unfinished or very poorly finished.
If I was going to just cover it up with 1/4" drywall (which I do understand if it contains asbestos) but then I'd still (thoroughly) coat that ceiling with zinsser bin shellac to avoid any possibility of off-gassing-- that smell can be mighty persistent.
Part of this thread is going to be explaining why I think B-I-N primer is a ripoff, Jill. Please stay tuned.
New to Real Estate · Livonia, MI · Member since 2019 · 27 posts · 4 votes
6y
I’m a drywall finisher by trade and just started investing in real estate. Popcorn and any textured ceiling can be ripped down and reinstall drywall or you can go over it with drywall. Those are good options, but you can also skim coat over the texture with joint compound. I have successfully done this multiple times and is a great way to reduce cost and time.
I’m a drywall finisher by trade and just started investing in real estate. Popcorn and any textured ceiling can be ripped down and reinstall drywall or you can go over it with drywall. Those are good options, but you can also skim coat over the texture with joint compound. I have successfully done this multiple times and is a great way to reduce cost and time.
Another aspect, the ceiling skim coat, I plan on addressing.
So getting back to where we're at, late 80's built house, so no asbestos, popcorn ceiling, I would scrape it and expect to find a lousy or nonexistent finish job underneath it.
Lay down a 3-mil-or-so plastic sheet in the room if you have reusable canvas down. If you have cardboard you plan on throwing out after this, you don't have to do this, but be aware that you're going to get a lot of heavy, wet, tarry residue on that floor, and it's going to be nasty. Have your particulate respirator on, usually just an N95 paper mask here.
Get yourself a 1-gallon pump sprayer and mix up your TSP at standard concentration. Spray the ceiling with the mix. You want it wet enough so that it's holding as much of the TSP as it can take. You want the air damp as hell to help the solution do its work, which is to absorb into the popcorn finish and help break down the glue binders adhering it to the drywall. Now what's going to happen is that the tar residues are going to be pooling and streaking like crazy, and little brown droplets are going to be falling on you. Wear a waterproof rain jacket or poncho while you're in there working. Nicotine will absorb through your skin.
Your tool of choice should be the heaviest painting pole you can find, a Wooster Sherlock. The right length for this is the standard 4-8 footer. You will need to screw in a razor scraper at the end of this. IMPORTANT: you need a high-quality 4-inch razor scraper, not the cheapest on sale. The one with three screws that hold the blade in place, not a knob. Perversely, you want the thinnest 4-inch blades you can get, usually sold in a 10-pack, not a 5-pack.
You 'll want to hold the pole well above your head and go after the popcorn at a pretty acute angle. You'll usually find that longer strokes work better than shorter strokes. You'll notice that this is a great upper body workout. Usually, you'll have your best results at first with your dominant hand as your push hand and your weak hand as your guide hand, but you're going to be switching back and forth as you work and you'll quickly get get better with your weak hand pushing.
Expect to go through the whole 10-pack of razor blades in about 400 ft2. You'll feel them going dull, but sometimes the thin ones do catch something stubborn and break. They're cheap enough.
You will invariably scrape and damage the drywall above in some places. We'll get to what you need to do to fix that later.
Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
6y
To add to this thread, you can also lightly knock off the popcorn with a drywall knife, leaving behind the carrier, and lightly sand the ceiling, then prime and paint. It leaves a very fine texture, almost like an orange peel, and saves you from having to redo all the drywall joints. Only downside to this method is it's messy and dusty, and if you ever have to patch the ceiling matching the texture is really difficult. But it's relatively fast and leaves the sins of the ceiling hidden. If you go this route you use a wide drywall knife, like a 10", hold it at a very slight angle, and just start scraping the popcorn down. Be careful not to dig the edge of the knife into the compound, and paint the ceiling with a flat paint (white is best to hide flaws) when you are done.
I have done 4 or 5 ceilings this way and it really looks nice when it's done. It's not for every ceiling, especially if you can see a lot of major flaws through the popcorn, but if the ceiling is in good shape you can really get a nice product when you are done.
Yep, I focus hard on the heavy-duty approach with a 4-inch razor scraper. Probably because almost all of the ceilings I've scraped are older and painted, which is the subject of my next post.
Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
6y
The Black Art of DIY Scraping a Painted Popcorn Ceiling
By now, I hope most people reading this thread have realized that it’s usually easier, cleaner, and safer to cover an ugly popcorn ceiling with 1/4 in. bendy-board drywall, and tape and finish it. Especially in a place with a good, high ceiling. You can also deal with the problem by putting in an acoustic-tile ceiling in a dropped grid. Finally, you can rip out the ceiling and replace it with new drywall, or, if the ceiling is made of plaster, you can remove all the plaster and screw up 3/8 in. drywall on the existing lath.
But here’s a common scenario in 100-year-old housing which @JD Martin mentioned in passing : the popcorn ceiling is on the second floor of the house and the floor joist bays in the attic are filled with asbestos-contaminated vermiculite. Perversely, you scrape a hole through the paint and test the popcorn, and it comes back negative. And the painted popcorn plaster ceiling needs a lot of work -- it’s cracked in places, sagging in other places. Just a complete crapshow. If you remove the plaster, the vermiculite will rain down out of the bays above. If you try to cover it up with 1/8 drywall, there are obvious sagging areas that you’re not going to be able to deal with and keep a level ceiling.
It’s easy to see what happened. The popcorn was put in as a measure to hide the growing ceiling plaster problems when they first started to assert themselves decades ago. Years later, after accumulating a patina of filth, tobacco tar, or cooking grease, the ceiling was painted in latex paint, incompetently, with inadequate or no cleaning and of course no primer to speak of. Now you’re left with a hot, uneven mess.
The dropped ceiling option with acoustic tiles remains. You could also put in furring strips and drop a drywall ceiling with new drywall that way. But, if you’re like me, you deeply dislike those option, you WANT TO BRING THE CEILING BACK. Every other ceiling in the place is fine, you refuse to compromise on this one room. Something in you won’t budge. You’ve made your choice, and it’s bad for your pocket, but you’re going to do it, come hell or high water. You want to, and here’s the magic word that marks out many stupid choices when it comes to 100-year-old properties, RESTORE it.
You can use the same wet technique with the razor scraper mounted on a pole that I mentioned to handle a popcorn ceiling that's been painted with one coat of paint. The TSP will soften the paint significantly. If you keep a handheld steam cleaner handy and steam up small sections in turn just before you go after them, you can soften the paint even more. You should commit to replacing the razor scraper's blade very often. Steam on existing TSP applications and changing the direction of scraping will usually help you when you get stuck.
Your best help is going to be the movement you make to scrape the ceiling. You need long, fluid strokes. You need to have the scraper accelerating when it engages the surface and first cuts through the paint, and you need to keep it at the same angle through the stroke as it seeks out the right place to separate the popcorn from the plaster. It’s a lot like playing pool and following through as you hit the cue ball. There’s a careful rhythm and feel to it that’s hard to understand if you just watch someone else doing it.
You will gouge the ceiling and have to repair it in places. But if you’re stuck and working alone, if your resources are stretched, or if you simply have confidence in your hands, the scraping I'm talking about is often very significantly cheaper and less time-consuming than the alternatives. You can also get the popcorn off and see where you have to put in plaster washers, where you have to replace sections of plaster, and where there’s no lasting damage. You can leave the ceiling trim alone, not mess with that and further damage the plaster. On the other hand, you WILL probably spend more time doing this your first time than you thought you would. It's a slow, methodical process and requires a methodical mindset. It's best to amuse yourself with inventive cursing as you do it. What you don't want to do is fall into a pattern of repeating the same curse word over and over and over again in the same, dull, monotonous, helpless tone. if you're reading this and laughing because you know exactly what I'm talking about...
What's the worst that could happen? You have to go back and use the coverup technique anyway.
Take frequent breaks. Please do not curse me five or six hours into this when your arms and shoulders start to ache. If you can't get the smooth stroke motion I'm talking about to work, stop. It's not worth repeatedly jamming and gouging the plaster and giving yourself carpenter's elbow.
Let's imagine that you stick it through and you get it done. You're left with a ceiling that's gouged in places, and of course full of residue. After you let it dry, it's time to repair and prime the surface.
Rental Property Investor · Corpus Christi, TX · Member since 2019 · 306 posts · 176 votes
6y
@Gail White
I saw a contractor post a video about this earlier today. He said mix water and fabric softener (not sure of the ratio), throw it in a sprayer (similar to a bug sprayer) spray it in the ceiling, then scrape it off. You can youtube some videos, but that's what I would do if it's a buy and hold. Doesnt look hard at all....messy for sure.
Contractor · North Conway, NH · Member since 2018 · 59 posts · 48 votes
6y
@Jim K. Get yourself a garden sprayer fill it will water. Spray the ceiling until damp, use a14 inch trapping knife to scrape the ceiling, the popcorn will basically just fall off (cover the floors if you don’t plan on replacing them it can get messy). Paint the ceiling and walls with 2 coats of bin oil base primer. Shellac primer create a hard surface which doesn’t move and will crack over time. Then paint everything whatever color your heart desires! Good luck. If you paint over the popcorn and it is actual popcorn and not mud texturing the moister will basically remove the adhesion that the popcorn has to the ceiling and will fall off anyways. My recommendation would be to get rid of it. You can cover it but it will take you more time.
Yep, I focus hard on the heavy-duty approach with a 4-inch razor scraper. Probably because almost all of the ceilings I've scraped are older and painted, which is the subject of my next post.
