Toilets... To caulk or not to caulk...

Toilets... To caulk or not to caulk...

Contractor · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2012 · 351 posts · 196 votes

I've seen several threads on BP where whether or not caulking in the base of a toilet is a good idea has been discussed. Seems the general concensus is to NOT caulk them. I vehemently disagree!

The main reason given for not caulking them in is so that in the event a wax ring fails, the swill can run out into the floor and be seen so one knows theres a problem. The major concern is that te subfloor doesnt rot.

Over the years, I have renovated many dozens of bathrooms and I would say about 90% of them had rot issues due to leaks at the flange. My question is, do the wax rings fail us or do we fail the wax rings? IMO, it's the latter.

Setting a toilet is truly a shot in the dark. Its just not possible to check to ensure we've acheived 100% positive contact between flange-wax ring and wax ring-toilet. Being that damage from bad seals is so prevelant, It has never made sense to me that even the DIY gurus continue to teach the same old method.

Here's my reasoning in favor of caulking in the toilet base...

Toilets are attached to the flange with two wimpy little bolts. If you use only what comes in most flange bolt packages, the bolt is connected to the flange with nothing more than a plastic retainer washer. Then, the bolt passes thru an oversized hole in the toilet base, and the nut cannot be overtightened due to the potential the porcelain base can crack. Caulking in the base of the toilet is the added reinforcement needed to secure it in place so that it cannot move. Without caulk, how long do you suppose it would take the toilet to move with kids or large adults plopping down onto the seat? The smallest rocking or twisting could result in compromise of the seal.

Now, on to my reasoning for why a leak causing a rotted subfloor is no excuse not to caulk toilet...

It has never made sense to me that we take a shot in the dark and then neglect to take a step that can prevent the leak in the first place. So why does a leak have to cause damage? It doesnt!! I look at a bathroom as a wet environment where things like overspray from shower, overflowing clogged toilets, and overflowing bathtubs are a real concern and steps need to be taken to contain spills and at least reduce potential for damage.

When water runs thru a gap in the wax ring, where does it go? It flows down over the outer edge of the flange. On 100% of the floors with rot, there is a gap between the flange and the flooring. On vinyl floors, often the edges of vinyl have curled because the installer wasnt worried about full contact with glue or a precision cut, as the toilet will cover it. With tile floors, the cuts are often jagged, with good sized gaps because again, it will be covered. In both instances a small trickle at each flushing, which is likely the case with most failures, will never flow out where it can be seen. The water will take the path of least resistence, and take up residence in the exposed underlayment and subfloor.

Here's how I prep for setting a toilet...

1. If flange is metal and is rusty or a painted steel with paint peeling, replace it.
2. If old toilet is being reinstalled, clean outlet area well, remive existing caulk if present, and clean perimeter of toilet base with thinner.
3. If keeping existing vinyl flooring, cut away any curled edges. If vinyl is loose, staple edges down securley.
4. Always buy an extra plain wax ring. Cut a piece from it and "butter" entire area of toilet outlet that will come in contact with wax ring. Use finger to spread evenly and body heat and friction will ensure wax is bonded to porcelain. (Note: How many times have you pulled a toilet and the wax ring pulled away cleanly frome toilet outlet? Buttering makes sense!)
5. Now, cut chunk of wax and fill the void between flange and flooring. Again, use finger to smooth it out uniformly so you know all gaps are filled and wax is smoothed out onto surface of flooring.
6. Using same method, butter entire surface of flange being sure to fill all unused holes and screw heads.
7. Now, install bolts onto flange. Have extra nuts in hand and instead of using plastic retainers, securely attach bilts to flange with nut. Measure distance from each bolt to wall and ensure they are both horizontal to wall an centered on flange.
8. Fill bolts slots with wax and smooth over.
9. Take new wax ring out if package and run finger around flat bottom surface of wax repeatedly to warm it up. Now set it onto waxed surface of flange centering it over hole. Twist it as you push down into place. Now use some of the extra wax ring to "caulk" where wax ring meets flange. This is so that as ring compresses and is pushed outward it slides into soft wax.
10. Ready to set toilet. Straddle toilet and lift over flange, keepin bottom of toilet parallel with floor and lower straight down over bolts and onto wax ring. Hold toilet as level as possible and twist it slightly from side to side as you push down. Its good to have someone help guide it and to help ensure that toilet is straight when it hits its final resting place. The idea is to move it as little as possible once wax ring is fully compressed.
11. Now install nut. Go back and forth from on side to the other a you tighten, till both are snug. Overtightening will first bend flange and then crack porcelain.
12. CAULK THAT SUCKER IN!! If you want to leave and inch in the back uncaulked so a leak will show, thats fine.

I also seal entire perimeter of bathroom floors. I tile most, and usually use porcelain tile with a body color that matches surface so that I can cut tile base. I caulk in the base with siliconized acrylic caulk in a matching color. With wood base, I apply a small bead of siliconized acrylic toward back edge of bottom of base before setting it into place. Depending on flooring, I sometimes then caulk base to floor. I dont do this unless I have caulk that matches well with flooring. Vinyl cove base? I hate it. But when its used I caulk it after adhesive has set up.

Everything in remodeling is about the details. Thinking thru every aspect of a job and taking even the smallest preventative steps can save headaches and money down the road.

Another small step that can prevent damage is sealing perimeter of dishwasher hole I caulk cabinets and back wall to floor and if there is a gap between cabinets and wall, I create a dam there. If DW leaks water has nowhere to go but out onto floor. Same with those pesky sink drain leaks. Seal perimeter of cabinet and fill plumbing holes with Great Stuff foam if necessary. Simply sealing edges so that water cant soak into edge grain of cabinet bottom will prevent the major damage we see. If its a solid wood or veneered bottom, an extra coat of sealer before silicone is a good idea.

As with all my "opinions"... Take what you can use and leave the rest!

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Flipper/Rehabber · Bakersfield, CA · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
13y

I think you should at least aim for the toilet with your caulk.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Flooring Contractor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 36 posts · 19 votes
    13y

    I like your method Randy! I have always caulked toilets in, leaving an inch or two uncaulked in the back. After reading through your process I'm kicking myself for never thinking to butter the flange, but I will certainly do that from now on. Thanks for posting.

  • Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    I agree with Randy. I believe a toilet should be caulked to the floor. I prefer 100% silicone. You are correct that those two little bolts do not provide much support.

    What I have seen over the years is that the was ring might settle a little and now the toilet wobbles. That caulk between the toilet and floor will hold the toilet in place instead of letting it rock to and fro. Especially with so many Americans being fat, or even morbidly obese, it makes the problems of toilets even worse.

    I like your idea of using an extra wax ring. I always use the wax ring with the rubber gasket in the middle. If the flange is lower than it should be (perhaps several floors have been added, raising the toilet higher from the flange than it originally was), I've used a wax ring with the gasket on the bottom and an extra wax ring with no gasket on top of it. It's easier to push the top wax ring into the bottom of the toilet and then set the toilet and top wax ring right down on top of the flange and bottom wax ring.

  • Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2013 · 292 posts · 81 votes
    13y

    Thanks for this, Randy. I've always caulked, but hadn't thought about cannibalizing a wax ring to waterproof the entire flange area. I'm all for the idea of taking an extra ounce of prevention to prevent worries in the future.

  • West, MI · Member since 2012 · 674 posts · 182 votes
    13y

    I always use plastic shims to prevent any rocking.

    Caulk the front and leave the back open. The shims are the key.

    Once had a 'big' person snap a flange out of concrete in a basement.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Bakersfield, CA · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    I think you should at least aim for the toilet with your caulk.

  • Contractor · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2012 · 351 posts · 196 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Ryan M.:
    I always use plastic shims to prevent any rocking.

    Caulk the front and leave the back open. The shims are the key.

    Once had a 'big' person snap a flange out of concrete in a basement.

    Thats a good point, Ryan. Rocking can be a problem especially on tile that was set carelessly. On the rare ocassion Im replacing toilet over existing flooring, I run a level across area before hand and if it needs shimming, dryset toilet first. I put it in place before prep, get it straight where it will sit, and shim it leaving shims sticking out. I mark the edge of base on the shims, tape them down, and put pieces of tape at numerous spots around perimeter to mark position. I then remove toilet, trace the shim on floor, cut off excess, and tape shims back down. I do it this way because if you set toilet into wax and then shim, you may be raising toilet up creating gap in seal.

  • Contractor · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2012 · 351 posts · 196 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Rob K:
    I agree with Randy. I believe a toilet should be caulked to the floor. I prefer 100% silicone. You are correct that those two little bolts do not provide much support.
    .

    Yeah, 100% silicone is ideal and I use it often but in case where you have a textured tile surface or a porous tile, it can be a challenge to get a clean caulk job with silicone. In that case, or if its a dark tile, I go with siliconized acrylic because its water soluable so easier to control with wet finger or rag if need be.

    There is a definite art to caulking. Drives me crazy when I see even a high end tile job and then they slathered caulk all over the place, ruining what would have been a quality installation.

    Im going to make a couple videos one of these days soon. One for setting a toilet. One a tutorial in caulking. There are tricks that make a huge difference and can mean the difference between a so so job and a high end job. All too many contractors leave the caulk work to the low man on the crew when in reality it is in many cases one of THE most important finishing touches.

  • Contractor · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2012 · 351 posts · 196 votes
    13y

    In another thread recently, it was mentioned that in someones area, code doesnt allow for caulking toilets. This is hard for me to fathom. It makes no sense. If gray water can leak out from flange, so can sewer gas.

    Ive been called in twice for my opinion on what could be causing a bad smell in a bathroom. Both times I suggested they clean toilet inside and out, and clean floor around it with a cleaner w/ bleach. If it still smelled call me back. Both were uncaulked. Both called me back. I pulled both and they had nasty stains on floor and swill around flange from a leak. I had no way of knowing if the smell was from sewer gas or from the leakage, but one wasnt wet anymore so I assumed it was gas. I cleaned them, reset the toilets and caulked them in. No more smell.

    If an inspector told me I couldnt caulk a toilet, Id tell him that as soon as they require a trap below the flange, ill stop caulking them.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    13y

    No way did I read all that, set the toilet, crank it down, caulk around the outside base neatly, walk away!

  • Real Estate Investor · Central, TX · Member since 2012 · 479 posts · 165 votes
    13y

    Randy, do you set the flange on top of the finished floor? Or flush with the finished floor?

  • Contractor · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2012 · 351 posts · 196 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Ryan Richard:
    Randy, do you set the flange on top of the finished floor? Or flush with the finished floor?

    I set the flange on the subfloor. If I use a half inch backer board under tile to bring floor level up to say a 3/4 hardwood to get a smooth transition( Im anal about transitions), I will add a plastic flange extender/spacer to flange to bring level up. If flange is a quarter or so below finished surface, Im comfortable just using a Jumbo or extra thick ring.

    Being a remodeler, Im always thinking of the next guy cuz I so often wish the last guy had thought about me!! If the flange is replaced and set atop flooring, the next guy to replace floor has to go thru a bunch of hassle to get old flooring and underlayment out and new in.... Unless of course the ceiling below is unfinished and flange easily pulled and replaced.

  • Contractor · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2012 · 351 posts · 196 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Bill Gulley:
    No way did I read all that, set the toilet, crank it down, caulk around the outside base neatly, walk away!

    Thanks alot, Bill!! Then I come along and have to deal with cutting out another rotten stinky moldy subfloor! Oh, but then you get to pay for it, right? Then thats ok!! :c)

    But yeah... Sorry. Typed it on my Iphone and didnt realize just how long it was!

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Randy F.:
    ( Im anal about transitions)

    Being a remodeler, Im always thinking of the next guy cuz I so often wish the last guy had thought about me!!

    I am glad to know anal transitions are a top consideration in your setting toilets Randy.

    And I'd do the same, doing a job right and considering the next guy gets points!

    I just went with the caulk thing in the title, didn't realize we were making a science of it, thus my quick remarks. Good Job! :)

  • Contractor · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2012 · 351 posts · 196 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Bill Gulley:

    I am glad to know anal transitions are a top consideration in your setting toilets Randy.

    LOL! I walked right into that one!

  • Real Estate Investor · Central, TX · Member since 2012 · 479 posts · 165 votes
    13y

    Randy F., thanks. I just remodeled a bathroom and had trouble finding the correct way to do this. The toilet instructions and several pro plumbers specified mounting the flange on top of the finished floor. Due to support, I thought that it should be flush to the floor.

    I ended up running the backerboard and tile right up to the pipe and set the flange directly on top of the finished floor. After a couple months, the toilet rocks forward...

  • Contractor · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2012 · 351 posts · 196 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Ryan Richard:
    Randy F., thanks. I just remodeled a bathroom and had trouble finding the correct way to do this. The toilet instructions and several pro plumbers specified mounting the flange on top of the finished floor. Due to support, I thought that it should be flush to the floor.

    I ended up running the backerboard and tile right up to the pipe and set the flange directly on top of the finished floor. After a couple months, the toilet rocks forward...

    The problem isnt likely due to mounting flange in top of finished floor. Ive seen toilets where te casting was just bad... A perfectly level floor and toilet still rocked. Sometumes you just have to shim them.

    I cant say the toilet manufacturer and plumbers are wrong. The toilet man. is simply concerned that adequate space between toilet and flange is maintained and the plumbers likely gave suggestion easiest for you to do and easiest for them to explain. Neither look to future and the hassle and extra cost if the floor is redone later. As far a support, flanges are mounted on subfloor in new construction every day. If integrity of subfloor is such that extra support is needed, I would cut out bad area and patch in new subfloor.

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