Bank note purchase vs dil vs cash for keys

Bank note purchase vs dil vs cash for keys

Marlton, NJ · Member since 2013 · 8 posts · 0 votes

Hello all, I am new to the forum and I've been very interested in many of your insightful comments. I would really like some help with my current situation which is both complex and unnerving.

This particular instance we would like to purchase NPA /NPN. We would like to purchase the home ideally but we have run into resistance from both the agent and the owner. Here is the history of this property

1. It was on the market since 2008 and has been abandoned since 2010

2. The original note was held by IndyMac for $575,000 beginning in 2003

3. In 2009 Deutsche Bank became the noteholder

4. I checked with our local tax office and one West Bank which took over for IndyMac has now been paying the taxes since 2010 but not under any tax lien or credit

5. The house is essentially a zombie property whereby the bank has no interest in foreclosing and the owner has not lived there in three years and the property has been toileting

6. The house is been off the market for several months but we reached out to the agent and made an offer and were advised that this is essentially a short sale situation where the owner was just along for the ride and the bank had the final say

7. We keep getting the runaround from the agent he has not even been able to get in touch supposedly with the owner we are unsure if this is because the agent is complicit with the owner is delaying the process for reasons unknown. Or the owner wants nothing to do with the agent or the owner does not want to sell for some reason. This is been going on for 3 months and hasn't even reach the bank yet.

8. Recently my builder advise me of the possibility of purchasing the note directly from the bank. We also did a title search which revealed different information that was given to us from the real estate agent. He never mentioned that Deutsche Bank held the note he just mentioned one West Bank was servicing the property.(how can this happen and why would one West Bank continue to pay the taxes in a non-tax lien or credit fashion for properties that they were not the noteholder for?)

9. We called Deutsche Bank on Thursday and they told us that the buyout would be $634,000

10. The title search revealed secondary mortgage of $77,000 Wells Fargo bank that had been written off since 2009. It also revealed approximately $60,000 of private contract debt to condominium associations, individual lenders private ,that were considered foreign judgments in the state of New Jersey. (what are my responsibilities to these secondary creditors besides Wells Fargo )

I have read some of Bill Gurleys comments and Mr. DIpaoli comments and would like more insight on what the proper thing to do. I have No intention of foreclosure on the individual if I could become the primary note holder , I am just interested in becoming the owner of the property. What are my best options : 1. clearing the confusion on who and what the primary noteholder is at this point either one West Bank or Deutsche Bank (should I get title insurance and a full title search)

2. Should I do with Mr. Gurley suggested which is confront the owner give him cash for keys and then deal with the primary noteholder supposedly Deutsche Bank.? This appears to be somewhat risky.

3. Mr. G urley also mentioned obtaining a waiver for the bank and then going directly to the bank but would this make it more feasible to obtain the deed and the property

4. Is a D IL helpful in accomplishing my goals and is it easy to obtain?

finally, how do I obtain the property if I have the note without foreclosing on the principal borrower? In other words I want no harm to come to the seller I just want the property!

Sorry for the long-winded question but this is of utmost importance to us thank you very much in advance

Steve

0Reply
63 views

Most Popular Reply

Flipper/Rehabber · Greeley, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
12y

welcome to the forum! I can shed some light on this.

I list REO for OneWest Bank who basically used to be Indymac. It makes perfect sense that OneWest is the services/owner. It is tricky to know exactly who the bank is, but I would be 99% sure you are going to have to deal with OneWest.

In listing REO for OneWest I talk to a lot of previous owners. They all said it was very difficult completing a short sale with them. OneWest usually wanted more money for the payoff then they could sell it for. Having said that, they are very easy to work with on the reo side.

I would estimate your chances of buying the note from them at about 1%. Most banks will not sell notes to individual investors and they will probably want more than you want to pay. Plus OneWest just sold a bunch of loans to Ocwen. They may not even control the note anymore and talking to Ocwen is going to be fun! They outsource to India and there call service people will have no idea what you are talking about.

Assuming you did buy the note, you can't just take over the property because you have a loan. That is what the foreclosure process is for. The only other option is a deed in lieu where they owner signs over their rights to you. However, that does not remove any liens from what I understand. To remove the liens in my state you have to go through foreclosure and hope none of the liens redeem the property.

My thoughts are you should wait for it to become reo or listed as a short sale.

See this reply in the discussion

27 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Investor · Clairemont, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Bill Gulley

    Steve I "summoned" them so hopefully they can help but to me it seems like this is a situation that will yield a ton of work and very little reward if you did decide to pursue it.

    P.S. welcome to Biggerpockets!

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    In this I'd suggest you not consider any note acquisition as it really doesn't meet your goals and betting on a DIL with that owner is a long shot at best. Consider the asking price or you best offer and submit it, if there is foot dragging contact the listing broker, you might try a letter to the broker with a cc to the bank. You can't force either one to sell so you may just need to wait for foreclosure. If the bank things it would go at auction they may speed it up. Good luck. :)

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Greeley, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    welcome to the forum! I can shed some light on this.

    I list REO for OneWest Bank who basically used to be Indymac. It makes perfect sense that OneWest is the services/owner. It is tricky to know exactly who the bank is, but I would be 99% sure you are going to have to deal with OneWest.

    In listing REO for OneWest I talk to a lot of previous owners. They all said it was very difficult completing a short sale with them. OneWest usually wanted more money for the payoff then they could sell it for. Having said that, they are very easy to work with on the reo side.

    I would estimate your chances of buying the note from them at about 1%. Most banks will not sell notes to individual investors and they will probably want more than you want to pay. Plus OneWest just sold a bunch of loans to Ocwen. They may not even control the note anymore and talking to Ocwen is going to be fun! They outsource to India and there call service people will have no idea what you are talking about.

    Assuming you did buy the note, you can't just take over the property because you have a loan. That is what the foreclosure process is for. The only other option is a deed in lieu where they owner signs over their rights to you. However, that does not remove any liens from what I understand. To remove the liens in my state you have to go through foreclosure and hope none of the liens redeem the property.

    My thoughts are you should wait for it to become reo or listed as a short sale.

  • Marlton, NJ · Member since 2013 · 8 posts · 0 votes
    12y

    Guys thanks so much for your consideration and time. I have enclosed the cursory title search we obtained this past week. Any more thoughts??

    I am still confused on who the primary lender is .

    I noticed that Mr Gurley stated you cannot approach the owner directly, maybe i misunderstood, but since the property at this moment is off the market... how can i get that bank to notice this property is non performing asset. Honestly, this is not for investment purposes my wife would love for us to eventually occupy this house, does that change any acquisition possibilities

    ?????????????????????? ??????? SEARCHTEC, INC. ? 314 North 12th Street, Suite 100, Philadelphia, PA 19107

    ???????????????????????????? 215/963-0888 Fax 215/851-8775

    ??????? SEARCH REPORT ??????? ORDERER: Erika Henderer SEARCHTEC#: TCH03720 CUST#: MJ-3798

    COMPANY: Trident Land Transfer ORDER DATE: 10/10/13 COMPLETED: 10/11/2013

    ADDRESS: 1409 N. Kings Hwy. FAX: 856-795-3885

    Cherry Hill, NJ 08034 DATE CERTIFIED: 04/19/10

    TYPE OF SEARCH: Series 20

    ??????????????????????????? NAME GIVEN: Search Any Name ADDRESS GIVEN:

    ??????????????????????????? DEED INFORMATION

    RECORD OWNER:

    PREMISES SEARCHED: TWP: Haddonfield Boro

    COUNTY: Camden

    DATE OF DEED REC'D DATE DEED BOOK & PAGE CONSIDERATION ASSESSMENT

    11/08/01 12/05/01 5196 8 $695,000 $934,700

    LOT & BLOCK LOT SIZE FORMER OWNER

    4 & 64.13 N/A 1032 Greenmount, LLC

    ??????????????????????????? MORTGAGE INFORMATION

    BOOK & PAGE DATED RECORDED AMOUNT MORTGAGEE

    7070 547 05/15/03 06/13/03 $575,000 Indymac FSB

    9054 446 N/A 06/29/09 N/A Assigned to: Deutsche Bank

    National Trust

    ??????????????????????????? JUDGMENT INFORMATION

    See attached 2 pgs

    ??????????????????????????? FEDERAL LIENS: None

    BANKRUPTCIES: See attached 1 Pg

    REMARKS: None

    ??????????????????????????? COMPANY HAS CONDUCTED SEARCHES OF THE PUBLIC RECORD FROM THE DATE OF THE DEED INTO THE RECORD OWNER(S) UNTIL THE "DATE CERTIFIED"

    FOR ITEMS UNDER THE ABOVE CAPTIONS WHICH CONSTITUTE LIENS AGAINST THE GIVEN ADDRESS AND FOUND ONLY THOSE SET FORTH ABOVE. TO THE

    BEST OF OUR KNOWLEDGE THIS REPORT IS ACCURATE AND COMPLETE, HOWEVER, NO LIABILITY IS ASSUMED BY REASON OF ANY ERROR OR OMISSION.

    RN13-284-04068 RE: 1TB06633 1

    000-1035-56

    SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY

    JUDGMENT NUMBER: J-054676-2012 CASE NUMBER: L 000798 10

    DATE ENTERED: 03/08/12 DATE SIGNED: 01/31/12

    TYPE OF ACTION: BOOK ACC

    VENUE: CAPE MAY

    DEBT: $ 50,000.00

    CREDITOR(S):

    H THOMAS HUNT

    ATTORNEY: MONZO CATANESE PC

    211 S MAIN ST STE 104

    CAPE MAY COURT HOUSE NJ 08210

    609-463-4601

    DEBTOR(S):

    (No Address)

    (No Address)

    ATTORNEY: PETER M TOURISM

    JS&A PLUS COSTS

    ---------------

    ADDED TO OUR INDEX.

    *** End of Abstract ***

    SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY

    JUDGMENT NUMBER: DJ-056645-2013 CASE NUMBER: 15205

    DATE DOCKETED: 03/20/13 DATE OF JUDGMENT IN S.C.P.: 06/28/12

    TYPE OF ACTION: FOREIGN JUDGMENT

    VENUE: CAPE MAY

    DEBT: $ 8,866.29

    DCKG: $ 35.00

    CREDITOR(S):

    COUNCIL OF UNIT OWNERS OF BEACON CONDOMINIUM INC

    C/O LAW OFFICE OF JOHN M OLIVERI

    SUITE 200

    635 N BESTGATE RD, ANNAPOLIS, MD 21401

    ATTORNEY: MARC SCHRAM

    1390 STATE ROUTE 36

    SUITE 101

    HAZLET NJ 07730

    DEBTOR(S):

    103 WHILDIN AV, CAPE MAY BEACH, NJ 08212

    ---------------

    JUDGMENT ENTERED IN THE COUNTY OF BALTIMORE, STATE OF MARYLAND

    *** End of Abstract ***

    RN13-284-04068 RE: 1TB06633 2

    000-1035-56

    SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY

    JUDGMENT NUMBER: DJ-056655-2013 CASE NUMBER: 21932

    DATE DOCKETED: 03/20/13 DATE OF JUDGMENT IN S.C.P.: 06/28/12

    TYPE OF ACTION: FOREIGN JUDGMENT

    VENUE: CAPE MAY

    DEBT: $ 6,875.14

    DCKG: $ 35.00

    CREDITOR(S):

    COUNCIL OF UNIT OWNERS OF BEACON CONDOMINIUN INC

    C/O LAW OFFICE OF JOHN M OLIVERI

    SUITE 200

    635 N BESTGATE RD, ANNAPOLIS, MD 21401

    ATTORNEY: MARC SCHRAM PC

    1390 STATE ROUTE 36

    SUITE 101

    HAZLET NJ 07730

    DEBTOR(S):

    ---------------

    JUDGMENT ENTERED IN THE COUNTY OF BALTIMORE, STATE OF MARYLAND

    *** End of Abstract ***

    SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY

    JUDGMENT NUMBER: J-274815-2010 CASE NUMBER: L 000759 09

    DATE ENTERED: 10/26/10 DATE SIGNED: 06/25/10

    TYPE OF ACTION: CONTRACT

    VENUE: CAPE MAY

    DEBT: $ 77,918.89

    CREDITOR(S):

    WELLS FARGO NA

    ATTORNEY: MANERI & MAROULES

    DEBTOR(S):

    (No Address)

    (No Address)

    PLUS COSTS

    ---------------

    ADDED TO OUR INDEX.

    *** End of Abstract ***

  • Marlton, NJ · Member since 2013 · 8 posts · 0 votes
    12y

    Guys thanks so much for your consideration and time. I have enclosed the cursory title search we obtained this past week. Any more thoughts??

    though having trouble uploading at the moment

    I am still confused on who the primary lender is .

    I noticed that Mr Gurley stated you cannot approach the owner directly, maybe i misunderstood, but since the property at this moment is off the market... how can i get that bank to notice this property is non performing asset. Honestly, this is not for investment purposes my wife would love for us to eventually occupy this house, does that change any acquisition possibilities

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    @Joshua D. triple post sapping memory I bet, LOL

    You may not contact an owner who has been given notice of foreclosure with suggestions as to curing the foreclosure unless you are an attorney or hold certain licenses, it's a touchy area designed to keep those with schemes out of the process. :)

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    12y

    Steven, you've gotten good advice here. The title search will Not tell you who owns the Note. Many times the note is sold, and the mortgage not reassigned. Likely here One West owns th emote, Deutche services it, but it doesn't matter. Buying a specific note usually only works in guru land. If you did buy the note, you'd have to foreclose to get rid of all of the junior liens. Best bet, short sale now, or buy at the eventual foreclosure auction, or later if it becomes a REO.

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    12y

    On the DIL the banks simply will not do them if a bunch of liens attached. They will just foreclose off or have the listing broker/ agent negotiate tiny releases on the short sale approval.

    So if one lien is 10,000 the creditor might release for 500 to 1,000 but still reserve the right to come after the debtor at a later time for the remainder of the balance.

    At this point really you can just watch the property. The seller might not even really want to sell and they use the short sale as a stall tactic for free rent and not to pay the mortgage.

    You really need to get face to face with the owner and see what their true intentions (at this point in time) are with the property. You will learn what is really going on.

    Buying the note doesn't give you ownership of the property just the paper.

    No legal advice.

  • Marlton, NJ · Member since 2013 · 8 posts · 0 votes
    12y

    I am not sure why the owner is stalling.

    He has not lived in the house for many years. He is not paying the taxes or mortgage. Why would he not be on board for a short sale?

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    Because he gets nothing, he's ticked off that he is losing the property and just walking away doesn't seem to bother him, the downside with credit, not being much different, is accepted for the satisfaction of, in his eyes, putting it to the lender. IMO!

    I'd say .......next! :)

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    12y

    Is the owner storing items there?? Could be a free large storage unit for them.

    Are there tenants there?? Could be taking rent and not paying the mortgage.

    With the short sale it could be the bank to approve it asked for all of these documents about assets and other properties. The banks didn't used to do this but with the short sale streamline process it now says the government and anyone else can be notified of the info you give the bank.

    If the short sale is denied the bank can later use this to pursue a deficiency. The bottom line is if the owner wants to keep other assets hidden and not show them then the short sale is dead. An owner isn't going to liquidate positive assets to make the bank whole. I have seen the bank try it many times but not with much success.............. : )

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by Steven Mellul:
    I am not sure why the owner is stalling.

    He has not lived in the house for many years. He is not paying the taxes or mortgage. Why would he not be on board for a short sale?

    It's possible the owner's house debt was eliminated in bankruptcy. In that case, there is usually zero incentive for the seller to participate in a short sale. Unless the HOA is currently racking up liens in his name, which could motivate him to sell. If BK is part of the picture here, foreclosure could be delayed indefinitely. In working with sellers, I'm definitely seeing some moratoriums and internal bank policies that are delaying foreclosures indefinitely on certain borrowers in BK.

    Short sales are 100% beneficial to agents and sometime beneficial to buyers looking for a deal. The seller really has no reason to participate, especially if they are not living in the property.

    I'm impressed that you even able to get a price on buying the note. It looks like the price is probably close to the face value of the note and/or the balance due plus late fees and interest? Is that correct?

  • Marlton, NJ · Member since 2013 · 8 posts · 0 votes
    12y

    Joel that's what we are thinking he has been attempting to avoid us based on new assets. K. That's also a good thought. So what's the appropriate tact based on either scenario

  • Lender · Tampa, FL · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Steven Mellul I would simply walk from this one. I assume that this is in NJ. The subordinate liens will have to be extinguished, so a foreclosure is probably inevitable here. In the State of NJ, it takes a long time to foreclose...we use 510 days as an average in our business for NJ. When funds/banks come to us with an offering, we can usually get a pretty strong discount. When you approach them with a specific property, however, they are going to want pretty close to the property's value for the note. Short selling will be troublesome because of the subordinate liens. There are tons and tons notes out there. I learned long ago not to get too focused on one deal. If it's not there, I learned it was best to move on to the next one. I hope that helps.

  • Marlton, NJ · Member since 2013 · 8 posts · 0 votes
    12y

    Doug the house has been abandoned for over three years, the bank is assuming all tAx payments, fees etc ;and I agree with Joel that the owner is pretty much inviting a foreclosure by extricating himself entirely from the situation and making himself a poor short sale candidate. he does not want the bank to delve too deeply into his financial situation but the bank is not obliging. So no way to facilitate situation for all three parties.(the bank does not seem cognizant of the situation )

  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    In accordance to what you posted in the title search, DB is the current note owner and it sounds like OneWest is servicing.

    The Wells Fargo is a charging lien, perhaps from deficiency on another mortgage.

    The BK could have wiped out the capacity to seek deficiency but the security instrument is still valid. You will want to review the BK and see what happened. it may be still active, although I doubt it. If it is you will have to seek relief from the stay. If the asset was not called to be liquidated, it would likely be that the borrower reaffirmed the debt and thus owes payments on it. Not making those payments allow you to file for relief. I am guessing he tried and failed his BK as this sounds like an investment property for the borrower and I would have think the trustee would have looked to liquidate it to pay some creditors off. (some of that is speculation on my part but could be confirmed in the BK paperwork)

    The price DB wants seems a little high for New Jersey NPN and I didn't see a property value. The FCL action might have some seasoning to it which may allow you to get close to their asking price.

    The play would be to purchase the note and finish the foreclosure. You don't really want to mess around with chasing the borrower, it doesn't seem like he is want to work anything and simply doesn't care. It also seems this is not the only troubled property. Finishing the FCL will help with some of those liens. I wasn't sure if that is the Subject Property HOA or another charging lien from another property.

    It seems the borrower's payoff is over $1.0 Million with principal, interest and advances. Again not sure what the property value is but you may have a demand that exceeds the property value and thus the minimal bid might deter a buyer at auction.

    The deal will boil down to the asking price DB wants and whether that affords you enough discount to make the needed advances to finish the FCL and protect the property.

    You will need a foreclosing attorney, in some cases you can retain the already hired attorney but that is not always the best idea if the foreclosure is stagnite. You will want to find a servicer which will cost you around $75 per month until the asset is deboarded via a auction sale or it reverts to REO back to you and you remove it.

    I think the DIL is unlikely and I think the short sale seems unlikely. I would rather wipe those liens in foreclosure than pay them. Unsecure them and let them chase the borrower. I think that is the best strategy here but depends on the value of the property and how seasoned the foreclosure is right now and some insight in to the BK.

  • Marlton, NJ · Member since 2013 · 8 posts · 0 votes
    12y

    wow quite insightful just slightly antithetical to the other comments. Thank you for spending the time to go through that title search I was slightly confused about who the note holder was as well. We contacted Deutsche Bank on Thursday and they gave us an outstanding number of $634,000 approximately.

    The property is now in disrepair and will need some renovation. With repairs this house could sell somewhere approximately 900,000 to $1.05 million. You mentioned the terminology charging lien I am going to reach out to Wells Fargo bank and see what they would take for their $77,000 secondary lien. I assume that would be a prudent next step.

    This was his primary home he then moved into his investment property at a remote location.

    I think the HOA is from another investment property not in the state of New Jersey and unrelated.

    How do you know the buyers payoff is $1.0 million? With all fees.

    Is there anyway to determine the degree of seasoning in the FCL? How do we even know they have begun the process. And what would be the cost for advances and protection etc

    Thank you in advance!!

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Greeley, CO · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    don't don it. You have no idea what the default rate is. If the default rate is 12% on the loan, that is 76k a year in interest. Multiple that by how long he has not been paying, add late fees, add lawyers fees and the loan balance is what the home is worth after it is repaired. Then you have to foreclose and your money might be tied up another two years. What is your money worth to you? 5%,10%,15%, there's another $100k to $200k into the property. You'll have to pay Wells Fargo for their note as well. Sure you might be able to get away with only buying the second, but f you dot pay off the first that interest, late fees and lawyer fees will keep rising until you do. One west/deautche doesn't have to take a fine less than they are owed and if you foreclose on the second they will still be in first position.

    We didn't even mention repair costs, your lawyer/servicing costs, selling costs etc. If the house was worth 2 million then maybe it would be worth pursuing.

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    12y

    Mark, I don't think he's planning to foreclose the second, just find out the balance, as an additional costs.

    Steven, other judgments, like the HOA, may not be related, but it doesn't matter. Once they're recorded, in most states, they attach to all property just like a mortgage...so they'd have to be foreclosed out, or negotiated to be released.

  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    Disregard my statement in speculation about where the sum of interest and fees comes to. When I got to typing I incorrectly glanced at the sale price number in your title copy/paste. Better computer to review the thread now.

    In this last post it looks like DB gave you a payoff number of $634,000. You mention "outstanding" so $634,000 is what they will take to satisfy the loan more so than a discounted note purchase price, it seems. Did they provide a formal written statement to you, if so, how does that number aggregate? If the number was verbal, I would ask for a written statement.

    The property has an ARV of $900k after repairs. There is no mention on what the property would be estimated to be worth right now or what cost is estimated for repairs. That matters. Future value can get you into trouble so stay rooted in the AS IS value right now.

    It doesn't make any sense to try and deal with anything else until you square away the situation with the mortgage. I would leave the other liens alone for now, they are not going anywhere. You have to sort out what the deal is and if there is a deal on the mortgage first and foremost. Everything else depends on that.


    The HOA liens and Wells Fargo liens look like 'charging liens', or liens that have been attached to the Subject Property to assist in collecting the debt. The liens themselves do not seem to have originated from an interest in the Subject Property. Example, Wells Fargo lien is not a mortgage on this property, it is from another property. I am guessing it is a deficiency judgement and Wells used the judgement to attach to the borrower's house. The Indy Bank/DB mortgage is senior to those liens and a foreclosure can unsecure those liens from title to the property. Because of all that, they really take inferior role in the whole picture right now.

    The details of the note and file will need to be gathered, you will want to get the interest rate of the note, see what the current unpaid balance is and what type of amortization the loan has. If DB is actually entertaining your purchasing the note, they will/should understand they will need to supply this information to you. That is the only reliable place to get that information. The loan servicer will have that information and will also have information around the BK action and the Foreclosure Action. The data they provide will also carry the amount in advances that have been made. All of that is going to matter, as if the property has some equity, the Mortgagee is going want a higher percent of the amount owed as a function of selling the note. So understanding what current amount is owed and what interest accumulation may occur during the term of finishing the foreclosure, alone with advances made will likely be where the deal stays together or falls apart in regards to the asking price being proper.

    The costs of advances will be the on-going cost of things like, paying for foreclosure legal fees, paying for property taxes. paying for forced place insurance. Advances may also include items paid for which preserve the property such as mowing the lawn to prevent a lien/fine. The borrower is not paying taxes, so that you can look up and get the number. Lender place insurance will require you getting a quote for the insurance, you can simply insure your cost basis, and for the sake of estimating simply use the $634k. New Jersey is not inexpensive in either of those two areas, so there is a couple thousand annually that you will have to inject. You can call an attorney in NJ and inquire about their fees to foreclose. You can use the full price of services as a conservative approach to your costs. If there is a discount to the vendor's service, say like a new foreclosing attorney, instead of paying $3,500 you pay $2,000 because some of the work is done, you can sharpen the numbers out toward the end of finalizing the offer.

    Then you will need to get an estimate of time to finish the foreclosure. That time will be the term which you aggregate the sum of these numbers. This is not easy and you will have to include an attorney somewhere as you are not all that familiar with FCL in NJ. The attorney will need to review the FCL file and see what happened with the BK file before they can give you some time feedback. It could be a bunch of work, such as if the current Mortgagee has not pursued foreclosure yet or it could be on the tail end of the process, such as a Summary Judgement already being in file. No real way to know without reviewing the file itself.

    What you are doing is seeing what the difference is between where the seller may sell the note and what estimated total due will be when the property can be sent to foreclosure auction. Then you need to look at the property value at the time of auction and you can determine if it is likely to be purchased at sale or not. You can't 'guarantee' that the property does not get purchased at sale by a third party. As such, you can not guarantee that it will revert back to you as REO. So you need to be prepared to either get the property or be happy with a return on your investment if the property is sold at auction.



  • Marlton, NJ · Member since 2013 · 8 posts · 0 votes
    12y

    thanks for your reply guys

    Only interested in first as I said I don't know what buyout is just called db and they said 634k but again I am unsure what one wests role and monies owed would be... Thx for the salient info on the secondary liens .

  • Jerry W.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    In many states certain types of liens placed on the property have precedence over first mortgages. Do not assume that even if you got the note that you could make all the liens go away.

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by Doug Smith:
    @Steven Mellul I would simply walk from this one. I assume that this is in NJ. The subordinate liens will have to be extinguished, so a foreclosure is probably inevitable here. In the State of NJ, it takes a long time to foreclose...we use 510 days as an average in our business for NJ. When funds/banks come to us with an offering, we can usually get a pretty strong discount. When you approach them with a specific property, however, they are going to want pretty close to the property's value for the note. Short selling will be troublesome because of the subordinate liens. There are tons and tons notes out there. I learned long ago not to get too focused on one deal. If it's not there, I learned it was best to move on to the next one. I hope that helps.

    I lived in NJ for years but wasn't a homeowner then. I gotta ask about the 510 days average for foreclosure. Is the borrower in the property the entire time without making any payments for that long? Does the number of days start with the date of the first defaulted payment? Or after a lis pendens is filed? Is the issue court delays and backlogs? Or does the process really take that long?

  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    K. Marie we use a higher number of days (900) than what Doug recommends. From what we have seen, it is not uncommon for the time to exceed 1,000 days. The courts in most of New Jersey are backlogged with files that they simply have a little bit of a difficult time getting through. Some of it is from the administrative demands of the process and some of it is from the increased number of new files (above the national average around 4.0%, NY is around 8.0%) that are added to the already filled pipeline.

    Is the borrower in the property? In most cases yes.

    We use the date of the complaint as day 1 of the count. NOD can be a bit of a moving target in our opinion, as sometimes a borrower needs an NOD as a kick in the rear and they get more than one NOD. Using that date as Day 1 would be an additional 30 days before Complaint and Summons occurs.

    We have owned several NJ loans and it has been our historical experience that the process takes between 2.5 and 3.0 years in total, unfortunately. A stark contrast to timelines in California and Texas in comparison. New Jersey is one of the three longest places you could have a foreclosure with New York and Florida.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    A 1,000 days....wow, that's a different world! I'd say if a borrower was at all aware a kick in the rear wouldn't phase them, 3 years free living? Lenders would be raising cane here and throwing law makers out of office! :)

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.