Arizona Tax Lien auction changes - big banks & funds limited

Arizona Tax Lien auction changes - big banks & funds limited

Specialist · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2011 · 698 posts · 629 votes

Just received emails from the online auction websites for both Coconino county and Yavapai county in Arizona. Bidders can only have ONE account in this year's auctions.

Two counties in Florida applied this same rule last year and the number of bids was cut drastically. This gives the individual investor a better chance at winning liens.

I commented in my Blog posts and in BP forum posts after the auctions last year at the dramatic increase in the Arizona lien auctions last year.

2013-northern-arizona-tax-lien-results

The way the online auction bidding works is you bid the lowest rate of interest you would accept on the lien. In AZ the bidding starts at 16% and you place your bid at the lowest (round number) rate you would accept on that lien.

Let's say you bid 7% on a lien. If three other bid 7%, then the auction software does a random pick out of the four people who bid 7% as the winner.

The counties used to allow a person or entity to have multiple "sub accounts" to place bids. All you needed was to have separate Tax ID's and you could tie all the accounts together to bid. So the banks and funds would create sub-accounts for all their customers. Some banks would have over 200,000 sub accounts.

Now imagine you and the bank had bid the lowest rate on a lien (7%). The software would randomly pick the winner from the list of accounts that bid. So you had your one account against the 200,000 accounts the bank used to bid against you. What do you think the odds are your one account would be chosen?

This is a nice step to even the playing field a little. The banks and funds will still bid - and they bid fairly low rates because even a 4% return is better than other very short-term instruments. But on the liens where an individual ties, the chances are better for the individual since the bank will have only a handful of accounts.

What I saw last year, was the banks that used to bid the huge number of accounts in Florida, moved to the Arizona auctions where they could still bid their monster number of accounts.

Now that they will be limited in AZ, they will move to other auctions.

I think we may see a slightly higher average rate on the AZ liens in these two counties this year if the banks move on to other counties.

The average rate won in 2012 in Yavapai was 10.54% before the influx of the banks/funds. In 2013 when the banks dominated, the average rates that won were 6.55%.

I'm thinking we'll see that average rate in Yavapai tick up a little bit this year when the auction results are posted in March. Same for Coconino.

I'll post results in the forum.

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
12y

@Jerry K.

Chance of IRS redeeming any vacant land in AZ is remote at best.. Unless there is that sleeper property that is worth hundreds of thousands or more.

Also remember when the IRS does redeem they have to pay statutory interest to the buyer of the property or tax lein.. and that has hovered around 9%.. However if you do any improvements to the asset other than winterizing and stabilizing it IE full blown reno they do not have to pay those funds back to you.

As stated I loved going after props with IRS liens.. And to be fair.. I was using cash. and most of my competition has to use hard money and a hard money lender will not lend on something with IRS liens ( most of the time) and or want to pay hardmoney rates for and through the redemention period

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Involved In Real Estate · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2013 · 13 posts · 0 votes
    12y

    Thanks for the update Jerry. I am thinking about at taking my first stab at the auction here in Maricopa county. Any idea if they are planning on doing the same thing?

    Just because of what you posted I may have to try Coconino as well:) How do you research delinquent parcels in that county? Directly from the treasurers website? Do you wait for the list to be published?

    Thanks!

  • Specialist · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2011 · 698 posts · 629 votes
    12y

    @Eric Fox I don't invest in Maricopa and they use a different online software company than Yavapai, Coconino and Pinal counties. Give the Maricopa Treasurer office a call and ask if they are limiting accounts.

    I have been able to download a PDF of the Yavapai list but many of the liens on the list will be paid before the auction. Yavapai usually puts a spreadsheet of an updated list on the auction website the day the auction opens. Coconino did not have a list available for 2014 auction yet.

    The first things I look at are where the properties are located in the county and what types of property. Then I narrow that down and start to online at pictures and then liens/bankruptcy/EPA issues of my narrowed list.

    By the way - just received an email that Pinal county is also going to the same account limit this year.

  • Involved In Real Estate · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2013 · 13 posts · 0 votes
    12y

    Thanks Jerry. If you ever need a drive-by of a property, let me know! ;)

  • Specialist · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2011 · 698 posts · 629 votes
    12y

    My son saw me reading @Eric Fox last post and said, "Geez Dad, you real estate guys are bad dudes. This guy is willing to do a drive-by for you?"

    Oh yeah, my real estate posse don't take no $#|^! We'll pop a banker just to watch him bleed.

  • Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 87 posts · 17 votes
    12y

    Hi Jerry

    This is a great news for us individual investors!

    Quick questions for you:

    1. Coconino county and Yavapai county have the same date for the online auction. Will you bid for both counties?

    2. How long do you usually start doing your research on the list before the auction date?

    Thank you so much!

    Emma

  • Specialist · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2011 · 698 posts · 629 votes
    12y

    @Emma Chen To answer your questions:

    1. Coconino county and Yavapai county have the same date for the online auction. Will you bid for both counties? Yes. I usually spread my investments across counties. If you look at the posts on BP I have in this forum, I post lists of the top bidders for these counties. You'll see several of the same names on all the lists.

    2. How long do you usually start doing your research on the list before the auction date? As early as possible. Yavapai has a PDF of the lien list for this year's auction on the Treasurer's website. I downloaded that last night and converted it to a spreadsheet so I could start to narrow the list to the areas of the county I like to invest. They will have an updated list in Excel on the first day of the auction and it will be minus anybody who pays their taxes between the time they published the PDF list and the first day of the auction. If a lien is paid off before the auction closes, they cancel the bids and gray the item out so nobody can bid on it.

    Coconino does not have a list yet. The one on the auction website is of last year's liens. They will probably only publish their list the first day of the auction. They usually have several weeks before the auction closes, so you can do research in that time. They also usually have their list in spreadsheet format to make it easy to filter and focus on types of liens (by property type, amount, parcel number, etc.)

    If you have read my blog posts here on BP (see link at bottom of this post) you'll see I started the process a couple of months ago by reviewing the results of last year's auction, and updating my list of areas in the county that would be good for investing in liens.

    The Yavapai list had over 3,000 liens for this year. That is way too many to look at all the liens. I have been building a list of areas, that I narrow down by Parcel number, over the years. I concentrate on liens in those areas.

  • Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 87 posts · 17 votes
    12y

    Thank you @Jerry K. for your quick and detailed response. I have learnt most stuff about tax lien from your posts. Will check out your all other past posts on BP as well. One more quick question: Do you personally have preference in specific types of properties when investing in tax liens?

    I really appreciate your time.

    Emma

  • Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 87 posts · 17 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Emma Chen:
    Thank you @Jerry K. for your quick and detailed response. I have learnt most stuff about tax lien from your posts. Will check out your all other past posts on BP as well. One more quick question: Do you personally have preference in specific types of properties when investing in tax liens?

    I really appreciate your time.

    Emma

    The question I am asking actually is:

    Do you personally have preference in specific types of properties(vacant land, single family, commercial properties etc.) when investing in tax liens? Thank you.

  • Specialist · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2011 · 698 posts · 629 votes
    12y

    @Emma Chen Different types of properties generally bring different average returns. So if you are in it for high returns, I've found vacant land brings the best rates.

    Large dollar commercial or Industrial properties bring high rates, but are the most dangerous for bankruptcies, IRS liens that take precedence over property taxes, and EPA issues. They also can cost high fiver figures to over 6 figures in taxes to purchase.

    Homes (single family) and condos are plentiful, but they tend to get low rates since most people want the safe return. You have to be careful of where the property is located also. A bad area will get you a high return, but if you end up with the property, it may be worth less than the taxes and interest.

    There are all types of properties and after looking through several years of auction results for many counties, I'm getting a good feel for where to get the best rates on good properties.

    I like vacant land (residential) and parking lots for shopping plazas that are viable and have the stores all rented. I have bought liens on homes and mixed use buildings (stores or offices on main floors and apartments on the upper floors). All of those have paid off in a few months and the rates I won on them were fairly low.

    I stay away from gas stations - too many EPA issues with the land.

    There are many strategies by lien investors. Hopefully others may give some of their tips.

  • Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 87 posts · 17 votes
    12y

    hello @Jerry K. I just downloaded the tax liens list of Yavapai county. I am about to do research on it. In terms of value of the property, how low is the ratio of tax lien value to property value(ratio%=tax lien price/property value) good? My first guess is no more than 20%. Please advise. Thank you!

  • Specialist · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2011 · 698 posts · 629 votes
    12y

    @Emma Chen That is an excellent level to use when you start to invest in liens. After some time you can start to look at individual situations, but that usually comes from knowing the area intimately. If you're buying out of state, then stick with that type of ratio.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Jerry K.:
    ...

    Large dollar commercial or Industrial properties bring high rates, but are the most dangerous for bankruptcies, IRS liens that take precedence over property taxes, and EPA issues.

    ...

    IRS liens are no different from other liens in that they have to also get in line. The IRS lien may have been in place before the property tax lien, in which case that IRS lien would have precedence. Otherwise, the IRS liens are like all others except the IRS has a 120 day right of redemption. See the next link where some of these myths regarding IRS liens get busted:

    http://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/311/topics/91948-buying-hoa-liens?page=1#p574382

  • Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2012 · 24 posts · 10 votes
    12y

    I live in AZ (yavapai county) and found the changes in the county tax sales interesting. Did you notice they no longer show how many other bids have been received on the property. Now it just says sealed.

    We have a couple properties that we are considering contesting the values they are taxing us on. They went all out raising the values when the market went up but we very slow in lowering the values. Part of that is due to the fact they only reassess values every few years.

    A word of caution to some of the newbies....Be careful in the rural areas as not even the aerial maps show the true story on some of these places. Went to look at one property yesterday and the road was so bad to get to the properties in the area we turned around. We'll have to take the 4wd to get back there. It was probably one of the worst dirt roads I've ever seen and it's not maintained by the city as it's outside town limits not even sure if it's county maintained as some are not..

  • Specialist · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2011 · 698 posts · 629 votes
    12y

    @Steve Babiak Thank you for the links about IRS liens. I see the rule specifically stated here (Number 2 in bold below):

    5.17.2.6.5.6 (03-27-2012)
    Real Property Tax and Special Assessment Liens

    1. This "superpriority" protects certain specified state and local tax liens against real property. IRC § 6323(b)(6) applies if state or local law entitles such liens to priority over security interests in such property which are prior in time, and such lien secures payment of one of the following three types of taxes or charges:
      1. A tax of general application levied by any taxing authority based upon the value of such property. For example, real estate tax.
      2. A special assessment imposed directly upon such property by any taxing authority, if such assessment is imposed for the purpose of defraying the cost of any public improvement. For example, sewers, streets, or sidewalks.
      3. A charge for utilities or public services furnished to such property by the United States, a state or political subdivision thereof, or an instrumentality of any one or more of the foregoing.
    2. If real estate taxes (whenever they accrue) are ahead of mortgages under local law, they will also be ahead of federal tax liens. The result will be the same if a special assessment lien arises after the federal tax lien is in existence. The same priorities apply in the case of charges for utilities or public services.
  • Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 87 posts · 17 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Jerry K.:
    @Steve Babiak Thank you for the links about IRS liens. I see the rule specifically stated here (Number 2 in bold below):

    5.17.2.6.5.6 (03-27-2012)
    Real Property Tax and Special Assessment Liens



    1. This "superpriority" protects certain specified state and local tax liens against real property. IRC § 6323(b)(6) applies if state or local law entitles such liens to priority over security interests in such property which are prior in time, and such lien secures payment of one of the following three types of taxes or charges:
      1. A tax of general application levied by any taxing authority based upon the value of such property. For example, real estate tax.
      2. A special assessment imposed directly upon such property by any taxing authority, if such assessment is imposed for the purpose of defraying the cost of any public improvement. For example, sewers, streets, or sidewalks.
      3. A charge for utilities or public services furnished to such property by the United States, a state or political subdivision thereof, or an instrumentality of any one or more of the foregoing.
    2. If real estate taxes (whenever they accrue) are ahead of mortgages under local law, they will also be ahead of federal tax liens. The result will be the same if a special assessment lien arises after the federal tax lien is in existence. The same priorities apply in the case of charges for utilities or public services.

    @Jerry K.

    @Steve Babiak Does this mean that we don't need to concern much about IRS Liens? Since federal law will protect real estate taxes liens as long as local law keeps property tax lien prior to other liens.

    Thanks,

  • Specialist · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2011 · 698 posts · 629 votes
    12y

    @Emma Chen

    My interpretation going through what @Steve Babiak provided, is that if an IRS lien was filed on the property BEFORE the real estate tax lien, then the IRS has precedence over the real estate taxes lien. If filed AFTER the property tax lien, then it falls behind the property tax lien, but the IRS still has a 120 day redemption period.

    You still want to be aware of IRS liens. Even if the IRS lien is filed after the property lien, the IRS can still take the property from the lien holder even after they have foreclosed (120 day rule).

    5.17.2.8.2.3 (03-27-2012)
    Redemption

    1. If either a nonjudicial sale or a judicial sale discharges real property from the federal tax lien, the Service has the right of redemption. This right enables the Service to redeem the real property from the party who purchased it at the foreclosure sale, and then sell it. For both judicial and nonjudicial sales, the Service may redeem the real property within 120 days of the date of sale or the redemption period under state law, whichever is longer. 28 USC § 2410(c) (redemption after judicial sales) and IRC § 7425(d)(1) (redemption after nonjudicial sales).

    Steve B. & @Steven Hamilton II - have I misinterpreted here?

    In AZ there is a 3 year redemption period on real estate tax liens. Here is an example of a situation to help clarify my interpretation:

    1) Let's say there is a property tax lien created and sold in 2012. In 2013 the IRS files it's own lien. The 2012 property tax lien takes precedence over the IRS lien. It is now 3 years later and the original buyer of the 2012 property tax lien has paid all subsequent taxes. The lien holder forecloses. Is it true the IRS, in the 120 day period after the property tax lien foreclosure, can still redeem the property from the lien holder, who now has taken possession via the foreclosure?

    A second possibilty and my interpretation - want to see if I missed something:

    2) Same situation starts as above - property lien created and sold in 2012, IRS lien filed in 2013. The original property tax lien holder does NOT pay the subsequent taxes and the original 2012 lien is combined with the next year 2013 lien. The second buyer of the property tax lien does take over both the 2012 & 2013 lien and pays the subsequent taxes going forward. At the end of the 3 year redemption for the property taxes, the lien holder forecloses. The fact they hold the 2012 lien - but was not the original holder when it was created - should not nullify the precedence over the IRS lien that was filed in 2013 correct? The 2012 lien itself was created before the 2013 IRS lien and the change in the holder of the lien should not matter, right?

  • Specialist · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2011 · 698 posts · 629 votes
    12y

    @Helene R I haven't re-registered for AZ yet, so I haven't seen the website. RealAuctions re-did the Florida websites last year the same way. It makes it a little more difficult for what I do, but doesn't knock me out completely.

    How did your foreclosures go for your other tax liens in AZ?

    Jerry

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    12y

    @Jerry K. - IMO you have it understood. Looks like the IRS might get 3 years to redeem though ... I'm not sure, but just after the words in bold in your post above you will find "or the redemption period under state law, whichever is longer", and you posted that there is a 3 year redemption in AZ ...

  • Specialist · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2011 · 698 posts · 629 votes
    12y

    @Steve Babiak Good point. My guess would be that the IRS then could have 3 years from the date they filed the IRS lien. I'll ask my foreclosure attorney when I start a tax lien foreclosure in AZ in the next couple of weeks.

  • Fairhaven, MA · Member since 2014 · 15 posts · 24 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Jerry K.:
    @Helene R I haven't re-registered for AZ yet, so I haven't seen the website. RealAuctions re-did the Florida websites last year the same way. It makes it a little more difficult for what I do, but doesn't knock me out completely.

    How did your foreclosures go for your other tax liens in AZ?

    Jerry

    Why do you find it more difficult?

  • Specialist · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2011 · 698 posts · 629 votes
    12y

    @David Jones I look at the past auction results to see where all the big number of bids came in, and then watch the bids come in for the current auctions. When I see a huge amount of bids on a parcel, I know the funds are bidding on that lien(s). I can do some last minute bid changes based on how the funds bid in the first batch of the auction, if I have bids in the later batches.

    The big players tend to bid at the same rate throughout the auction. If I see them bidding at say 6% in the first batch, then odds are they bid 6% on all the parcels in all the batches. If I see the total count of bids is extremely high on a lien I bid on, I can decide to bid 5% to beat the funds or I can cancel my bid before it closes.

    I don't do a lot of bid changes, but losing the total bid count before the batch closes just takes away that last minute bid change option. That's why I said it makes it a little more difficult, but it doesn't knock me out completely.

  • Specialist · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2011 · 698 posts · 629 votes
    12y

    @Helene R I re-registered tonight and I do see they still have the number of bids on each lien. Click on the ADV Number for a lien and the pop-up window does show the current number of Bids on that lien.

  • Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2012 · 24 posts · 10 votes
    12y

    Good catch on the bid numbers Jerry K. I haven't checked into it much since I re registered the other day just noticed the sealed spot and forgot the bids were shown in the Adv. Thanks for that reminder :-)

  • Real Estate Investor · Torrance, CA · Member since 2009 · 13 posts · 5 votes
    12y

    Jerry, I am registered in Pinal County for the Lien auction. when I try to look through the data base of liens I cant seem to find a way to sort them by land use etc or any way. I believe there are over 4000 liens and the only way i can see is to look at them one by one. Do you know of any other was to sort them?

    Many thanks - Tim

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Jerry K. What % of tax certs that you buy a year do not ever redeem.. do you ever end up quieting the title to take possession? My experience with IRS liens in the foreclosure world is 120 day right of redemption. And I never let them scare me off I really preferred them B/C most investors would not bid them.. I would buy them do my rehab on them. and then have them sold about 120 to 180 days when the redemption was over. I only had one redeem in all my years and buying literally hundreds of court house steps properties... And the only way the IRS stepping in was a case of a fluke were we bid 30k at the sale the house was worth 250k.. the sale took place at an attornies office instead of the courthouse steps and we were the only bidder... Total Fluke.. the Trustor notified the IRS and they stepped in right away we paid another 100k to the IRS and still got the property. The reality is unless there is huge equity the IRS is not going to do anything ... Thats my experince.. And at the worse we just risked 10 to 15k on reno.. Just the cost of doing business. But the deals we got because we were only bidder easily made up for the risk of losing 15k on a deal.

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