Another state making changes to their tax sale laws (Louisiana)

Another state making changes to their tax sale laws (Louisiana)

Investor · Covington, LA · Member since 2012 · 517 posts · 317 votes

Summary from what I have read and what was explained to me. There will be a state wide election in December to change the tax sale laws. To me it sounds similar to Florida. The state is pushing for it and I am sure were it will be worded on the ballot to sound like a great thing, 99.9% of the public doesn't understand this stuff. I have no doubt it will pass.

Changes: There will still be a tax lien sale like there is now except the bidding mechanism will be to bid down % interest rate instead of % of ownership. After the 3 year redemption period you need to do noticing, file law suit, get a judgement but instead of taking ownership of the property like you do now, the new system will cause it to go to a tax deed sale to the highest bidder. Overage can go back to the owner. 

I have done very well acquiring ownership of abandoned, run down houses and vacant lots. Many times the owners can not be found or if they are they want nothing to do with it and in a lot of cases if found, I pay them for a quit claim. I wonder if the parish will keep the overages in all of the cases where the owners can't be found or if they will scoop the difference in interest like AZ does.  I have quieted title on over 20 properties over the years, with many more in the process now or will be starting soon. I have turned a couple thousand dollar investment and lots of work and learning into a seven figure business. I guess all good things come to an end eventually. The only upside is that this doesn't go into effect until 2026 so everything I bought last year, this year and next year will continue under the current laws. As of 2026 I will no longer buy liens in LA, there is no upside. Make a lot less on interest and no change to acquire property. This will help some owners get back a little money from overages but I bet in most cases its the parish that will get what would have been my profit. They found a way to profit off of tax sales much like other states have done.

Louisiana—Property Tax—Administration of tax sales of immovable property.

, effective 01/01/2026, upon adoption of the proposed constitutional amendment at the statewide election to be held 12/07/2024, repeals numerous provisions related to tax sales and provides that the assessment of property taxes and other impositions on immovable property will constitute a lien and privilege on the property in favor of the political subdivision to which taxes and other impositions are owed. The legislature must provide, by law, for: (1) interest on the delinquent taxes and other impositions not to exceed 1% per month on a non-compounding basis; (2) a penalty not to exceed 5% of the delinquent taxes and other impositions; (3) a period of time during which the lien cannot be enforced; (4) a procedure for claiming the excess proceeds from the sale of the property as a result of the enforcement of the lien; and (5) the authority of the tax collector to waive penalties for good cause. The legislature may postpone the payment of taxes, but only in cases of emergency declared by the governor or a parish president pursuant to the Louisiana Homeland Security and Emergency Assistance and Disaster Act.

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Lender · Charleston, SC · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
2y

This is interesting. I already didnt like the Louisiana process with 3 years for redemption. I wouldnt touch this at all - what's the point?

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  • Lender · Charleston, SC · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    This is interesting. I already didnt like the Louisiana process with 3 years for redemption. I wouldnt touch this at all - what's the point?

  • Real Estate Broker · Coppell, TX · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y

    I vote for, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

    Where is Huey P. Long when you need him?  Should a III or IV around you'd think, that could still run influence.

  • Investor · Covington, LA · Member since 2012 · 517 posts · 317 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Patrick Roberts:

    This is interesting. I already didnt like the Louisiana process with 3 years for redemption. I wouldnt touch this at all - what's the point?

    I don't get it either, there is no upside. I can only imagine they consulted with the big hedge fund companies and made sure there was enough left on the table for them to stay interested, they can buy all the liens and make next to no interest if they want to. I can't see any local investors continuing on with the new laws. 

    I have tried out other states... (CO, WY, AZ) and researched many. So far I like SC the best. Do you buy in SC ?

    1. I like that it is all in person. It is incredibly hard to make money bidding online. Not just that there is too much competition. But there are too many stupid bidders, for a lack of a better term. Bidding online makes it too easy for people with no clue to bid everything up too high or down too low (depending on your state). They end up losing their money but are replaced by a new crop the following year.  In person cuts a lot of that out.

    2. I like that the deed is issued to you. You don't have to do a judicial foreclosure or send in an application they just send it to you.

    3. One year redemption period is nice.

    4. Being that owners can apply for the overage, that is the most "compliant" process and I don't see them changing their laws any time soon.

    I just would need to figure out a good county to give it a try and show up to a sale later this year. If you bid there and don't mind sharing what do you think are some of the pros and cons ? Thanks 

  • Lender · Charleston, SC · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    I like the SC process as well. I've attended the CHS county auction for the last 3 years and bid on several liens last year but did not obtain any. I believe you still have go through a quiet title process in SC and I know this has caused problems for other investors in obtaining clear title and title insurance in future sales. Even though the CHS county auction is in person, it was still saturated. In 2022, the auctioneer made a comment about seeing a lot of new faces and asked how many people were bidding for the first time - about 2/3 of the room put their hands up. Last year, I had a person sitting next to me tell that liens were 100% safe and there was no way to lose money. That being said, there were some very professional crews (funds) there. I plan on attending some other county auctions this year and branching out from just Charleston.

    Overall, though, I don't think its an efficient way to obtain properties. If I remember correctly, the redemption rate in CHS county is something like 80-90% and the interest that can be earned is capped. With the way people were bidding the last two years, the yields if the properties were redeemed were like 2-3%. Maybe I'm missing something, but to me, it seemed oversaturated and this crushed the potential returns. Again, this was specific to CHS county. 

    Have you tried Civic Source in LA? We bought a property in the BR area in 2020 and it was pretty straightforward. Just hard to find good properties on it. I haven't messed around with Nola much, just BR. 



  • Investor · Covington, LA · Member since 2012 · 517 posts · 317 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Patrick Roberts:

    I like the SC process as well. I've attended the CHS county auction for the last 3 years and bid on several liens last year but did not obtain any. I believe you still have go through a quiet title process in SC and I know this has caused problems for other investors in obtaining clear title and title insurance in future sales. Even though the CHS county auction is in person, it was still saturated. In 2022, the auctioneer made a comment about seeing a lot of new faces and asked how many people were bidding for the first time - about 2/3 of the room put their hands up. Last year, I had a person sitting next to me tell that liens were 100% safe and there was no way to lose money. That being said, there were some very professional crews (funds) there. I plan on attending some other county auctions this year and branching out from just Charleston.

    Overall, though, I don't think its an efficient way to obtain properties. If I remember correctly, the redemption rate in CHS county is something like 80-90% and the interest that can be earned is capped. With the way people were bidding the last two years, the yields if the properties were redeemed were like 2-3%. Maybe I'm missing something, but to me, it seemed oversaturated and this crushed the potential returns. Again, this was specific to CHS county. 

    Have you tried Civic Source in LA? We bought a property in the BR area in 2020 and it was pretty straightforward. Just hard to find good properties on it. I haven't messed around with Nola much, just BR. 



     I’m very familiar with civic source they started about 10 years ago to fix a problem. In LA the tax liens that didn’t sell were adjudicated to the parish. The laws dealing with adjudicated auctions were cumbersome, each parish had to deal with it and very very few adjudicated auctions ever happened.  Civic source was created to take decades worth of properties that had been sitting idle on the parish’s books and make it easy for them to auction them off and put it back in commerce.  The problem was no one wanted to buy or pay much for property that was not insured with title ins so civic source purchased a title insurance company and insured the properties they auctioned of. That is what gave us USNational which has been a big help in my area as I can use them to insure tax sale properties I acquire when in most cases other title ins companies will not.  The negative is that the title ins can cost 3-4x or more than what traditional title ins will cost. It also means the buyer has to be explained all of this and they have to use USNational when they go to sell, and explain it to their future buyers.

    With all that being said when the market is soft or there is lots of inventory I’ve noticed tax sale properties (including the adjudicated you buy off of civic source) will typically sell for about 10-20% less than market value.   Every time I go to bid on property on civic source people are bidding it up to or over market value. It’s crazy.   Just about anything online is going to be so competitive that you rarely if ever will find a deal. If I am going to pay market value I will browse the mls to see what is for sale, not overbid for a tax sale property.

    In SC I was hopeful, since they are all in person that there would be some smaller to medium counties that wouldn’t be too competitive to where you could still get a decent deal, if it doesn’t redeem.
    What % of value do you think most property was being bid up to? I would be looking for mostly abandoned or run down houses that need repairs. They typically have a better chance of not redeeming. Or even vacant land. 

  • Lender · Charleston, SC · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Will Sifert:
    Quote from @Patrick Roberts:

    I like the SC process as well. I've attended the CHS county auction for the last 3 years and bid on several liens last year but did not obtain any. I believe you still have go through a quiet title process in SC and I know this has caused problems for other investors in obtaining clear title and title insurance in future sales. Even though the CHS county auction is in person, it was still saturated. In 2022, the auctioneer made a comment about seeing a lot of new faces and asked how many people were bidding for the first time - about 2/3 of the room put their hands up. Last year, I had a person sitting next to me tell that liens were 100% safe and there was no way to lose money. That being said, there were some very professional crews (funds) there. I plan on attending some other county auctions this year and branching out from just Charleston.

    Overall, though, I don't think its an efficient way to obtain properties. If I remember correctly, the redemption rate in CHS county is something like 80-90% and the interest that can be earned is capped. With the way people were bidding the last two years, the yields if the properties were redeemed were like 2-3%. Maybe I'm missing something, but to me, it seemed oversaturated and this crushed the potential returns. Again, this was specific to CHS county. 

    Have you tried Civic Source in LA? We bought a property in the BR area in 2020 and it was pretty straightforward. Just hard to find good properties on it. I haven't messed around with Nola much, just BR. 



     I’m very familiar with civic source they started about 10 years ago to fix a problem. In LA the tax liens that didn’t sell were adjudicated to the parish. The laws dealing with adjudicated auctions were cumbersome, each parish had to deal with it and very very few adjudicated auctions ever happened.  Civic source was created to take decades worth of properties that had been sitting idle on the parish’s books and make it easy for them to auction them off and put it back in commerce.  The problem was no one wanted to buy or pay much for property that was not insured with title ins so civic source purchased a title insurance company and insured the properties they auctioned of. That is what gave us USNational which has been a big help in my area as I can use them to insure tax sale properties I acquire when in most cases other title ins companies will not.  The negative is that the title ins can cost 3-4x or more than what traditional title ins will cost. It also means the buyer has to be explained all of this and they have to use USNational when they go to sell, and explain it to their future buyers.

    With all that being said when the market is soft or there is lots of inventory I’ve noticed tax sale properties (including the adjudicated you buy off of civic source) will typically sell for about 10-20% less than market value.   Every time I go to bid on property on civic source people are bidding it up to or over market value. It’s crazy.   Just about anything online is going to be so competitive that you rarely if ever will find a deal. If I am going to pay market value I will browse the mls to see what is for sale, not overbid for a tax sale property.

    In SC I was hopeful, since they are all in person that there would be some smaller to medium counties that wouldn’t be too competitive to where you could still get a decent deal, if it doesn’t redeem.
    What % of value do you think most property was being bid up to? I would be looking for mostly abandoned or run down houses that need repairs. They typically have a better chance of not redeeming. Or even vacant land. 


    I agree - the handful of worthwhile properties on Civic source in BR were bid up like crazy on the few that I watched. Last year in CHS, liens for any house worth owning seemed to be selling for 30-50% of market value. Good properties were typically higher than that. Marginal properties were hit and miss. About 4-6 buyers got the lion's share of the SFH 200k-400k homes. If I remember correctly, East Coast Tax Auction LLC and Red Rock Capital were two of the high volume bidders. A couple of local individuals as well. I recorded a list of what most of the liens sold for and tracked the wins of the clearly professional bidders for research and learning purposes. A little bit of vacant land, but most of it seemed worthless from what I remember researching. I was primarily targeting properties that were likely to redeem and would yield me at least 12%, so my bidding and research were structured around that. I had no illusions about acquiring properties this way.

    Between the tax auctions, the FB groups I'm a part of, and what I see in my day to day as a lender, my general opinion is that there's still too much money chasing too few deals as a whole. The marker is still frothy and most of the "deals" I see are dogshit. The higher rates have somewhat slowed down the "get rich quick with no money down" crowd as financing is more difficult, but I still see a lot of new investors with serious cash or purchasing power. There's still a ton of liquidity out there.

  • Investor · Covington, LA · Member since 2012 · 517 posts · 317 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Patrick Roberts:
    Quote from @Will Sifert:
    Quote from @Patrick Roberts:

    I like the SC process as well. I've attended the CHS county auction for the last 3 years and bid on several liens last year but did not obtain any. I believe you still have go through a quiet title process in SC and I know this has caused problems for other investors in obtaining clear title and title insurance in future sales. Even though the CHS county auction is in person, it was still saturated. In 2022, the auctioneer made a comment about seeing a lot of new faces and asked how many people were bidding for the first time - about 2/3 of the room put their hands up. Last year, I had a person sitting next to me tell that liens were 100% safe and there was no way to lose money. That being said, there were some very professional crews (funds) there. I plan on attending some other county auctions this year and branching out from just Charleston.

    Overall, though, I don't think its an efficient way to obtain properties. If I remember correctly, the redemption rate in CHS county is something like 80-90% and the interest that can be earned is capped. With the way people were bidding the last two years, the yields if the properties were redeemed were like 2-3%. Maybe I'm missing something, but to me, it seemed oversaturated and this crushed the potential returns. Again, this was specific to CHS county. 

    Have you tried Civic Source in LA? We bought a property in the BR area in 2020 and it was pretty straightforward. Just hard to find good properties on it. I haven't messed around with Nola much, just BR. 



     I’m very familiar with civic source they started about 10 years ago to fix a problem. In LA the tax liens that didn’t sell were adjudicated to the parish. The laws dealing with adjudicated auctions were cumbersome, each parish had to deal with it and very very few adjudicated auctions ever happened.  Civic source was created to take decades worth of properties that had been sitting idle on the parish’s books and make it easy for them to auction them off and put it back in commerce.  The problem was no one wanted to buy or pay much for property that was not insured with title ins so civic source purchased a title insurance company and insured the properties they auctioned of. That is what gave us USNational which has been a big help in my area as I can use them to insure tax sale properties I acquire when in most cases other title ins companies will not.  The negative is that the title ins can cost 3-4x or more than what traditional title ins will cost. It also means the buyer has to be explained all of this and they have to use USNational when they go to sell, and explain it to their future buyers.

    With all that being said when the market is soft or there is lots of inventory I’ve noticed tax sale properties (including the adjudicated you buy off of civic source) will typically sell for about 10-20% less than market value.   Every time I go to bid on property on civic source people are bidding it up to or over market value. It’s crazy.   Just about anything online is going to be so competitive that you rarely if ever will find a deal. If I am going to pay market value I will browse the mls to see what is for sale, not overbid for a tax sale property.

    In SC I was hopeful, since they are all in person that there would be some smaller to medium counties that wouldn’t be too competitive to where you could still get a decent deal, if it doesn’t redeem.
    What % of value do you think most property was being bid up to? I would be looking for mostly abandoned or run down houses that need repairs. They typically have a better chance of not redeeming. Or even vacant land. 


    I agree - the handful of worthwhile properties on Civic source in BR were bid up like crazy on the few that I watched. Last year in CHS, liens for any house worth owning seemed to be selling for 30-50% of market value. Good properties were typically higher than that. Marginal properties were hit and miss. About 4-6 buyers got the lion's share of the SFH 200k-400k homes. If I remember correctly, East Coast Tax Auction LLC and Red Rock Capital were two of the high volume bidders. A couple of local individuals as well. I recorded a list of what most of the liens sold for and tracked the wins of the clearly professional bidders for research and learning purposes. A little bit of vacant land, but most of it seemed worthless from what I remember researching. I was primarily targeting properties that were likely to redeem and would yield me at least 12%, so my bidding and research were structured around that. I had no illusions about acquiring properties this way.

    Between the tax auctions, the FB groups I'm a part of, and what I see in my day to day as a lender, my general opinion is that there's still too much money chasing too few deals as a whole. The marker is still frothy and most of the "deals" I see are dogshit. The higher rates have somewhat slowed down the "get rich quick with no money down" crowd as financing is more difficult, but I still see a lot of new investors with serious cash or purchasing power. There's still a ton of liquidity out there.

    Bidding up 30-50% would work for me. I wouldn't want to go much over 50% and my "value" might not be as high as the next guy as I assume the condition of the home is worst case, full gut, electrical plumbing needed etc etc.   I would target the properties in their current condition that would be worth less 100K. Sounds like this is a sector that would not have fierce competition. I am not an investor who does it for the interest. I target the sweet spot, property that has a better chance of not redeeming (vacant or abandoned or in need or lots of repairs) but it has to still be worth it. Not a tear down. If it is a tear down and the value of the land is less than the cost of the demo work I don't want it if you give it to me for free lol.  If the property is too nice it has a much higher chance of redeeming and it gets a lot more competition from the investors looking for the interest. I like vacant land, more likely to not redeem and less speculation on my part worried about it's condition. But it has to be decent vacant land, not something land locked, can't be built on or some obscure piece. Its much easier to calculate it's value, if similar lots are selling for 50K and I can get it for 10-20K  it doesn't redeem, i can clear title, etc list it and make some money.    Thanks for the info. 

  • Lender · Charleston, SC · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Will Sifert:
    Quote from @Patrick Roberts:
    Quote from @Will Sifert:
    Quote from @Patrick Roberts:

    I like the SC process as well. I've attended the CHS county auction for the last 3 years and bid on several liens last year but did not obtain any. I believe you still have go through a quiet title process in SC and I know this has caused problems for other investors in obtaining clear title and title insurance in future sales. Even though the CHS county auction is in person, it was still saturated. In 2022, the auctioneer made a comment about seeing a lot of new faces and asked how many people were bidding for the first time - about 2/3 of the room put their hands up. Last year, I had a person sitting next to me tell that liens were 100% safe and there was no way to lose money. That being said, there were some very professional crews (funds) there. I plan on attending some other county auctions this year and branching out from just Charleston.

    Overall, though, I don't think its an efficient way to obtain properties. If I remember correctly, the redemption rate in CHS county is something like 80-90% and the interest that can be earned is capped. With the way people were bidding the last two years, the yields if the properties were redeemed were like 2-3%. Maybe I'm missing something, but to me, it seemed oversaturated and this crushed the potential returns. Again, this was specific to CHS county. 

    Have you tried Civic Source in LA? We bought a property in the BR area in 2020 and it was pretty straightforward. Just hard to find good properties on it. I haven't messed around with Nola much, just BR. 



     I’m very familiar with civic source they started about 10 years ago to fix a problem. In LA the tax liens that didn’t sell were adjudicated to the parish. The laws dealing with adjudicated auctions were cumbersome, each parish had to deal with it and very very few adjudicated auctions ever happened.  Civic source was created to take decades worth of properties that had been sitting idle on the parish’s books and make it easy for them to auction them off and put it back in commerce.  The problem was no one wanted to buy or pay much for property that was not insured with title ins so civic source purchased a title insurance company and insured the properties they auctioned of. That is what gave us USNational which has been a big help in my area as I can use them to insure tax sale properties I acquire when in most cases other title ins companies will not.  The negative is that the title ins can cost 3-4x or more than what traditional title ins will cost. It also means the buyer has to be explained all of this and they have to use USNational when they go to sell, and explain it to their future buyers.

    With all that being said when the market is soft or there is lots of inventory I’ve noticed tax sale properties (including the adjudicated you buy off of civic source) will typically sell for about 10-20% less than market value.   Every time I go to bid on property on civic source people are bidding it up to or over market value. It’s crazy.   Just about anything online is going to be so competitive that you rarely if ever will find a deal. If I am going to pay market value I will browse the mls to see what is for sale, not overbid for a tax sale property.

    In SC I was hopeful, since they are all in person that there would be some smaller to medium counties that wouldn’t be too competitive to where you could still get a decent deal, if it doesn’t redeem.
    What % of value do you think most property was being bid up to? I would be looking for mostly abandoned or run down houses that need repairs. They typically have a better chance of not redeeming. Or even vacant land. 


    I agree - the handful of worthwhile properties on Civic source in BR were bid up like crazy on the few that I watched. Last year in CHS, liens for any house worth owning seemed to be selling for 30-50% of market value. Good properties were typically higher than that. Marginal properties were hit and miss. About 4-6 buyers got the lion's share of the SFH 200k-400k homes. If I remember correctly, East Coast Tax Auction LLC and Red Rock Capital were two of the high volume bidders. A couple of local individuals as well. I recorded a list of what most of the liens sold for and tracked the wins of the clearly professional bidders for research and learning purposes. A little bit of vacant land, but most of it seemed worthless from what I remember researching. I was primarily targeting properties that were likely to redeem and would yield me at least 12%, so my bidding and research were structured around that. I had no illusions about acquiring properties this way.

    Between the tax auctions, the FB groups I'm a part of, and what I see in my day to day as a lender, my general opinion is that there's still too much money chasing too few deals as a whole. The marker is still frothy and most of the "deals" I see are dogshit. The higher rates have somewhat slowed down the "get rich quick with no money down" crowd as financing is more difficult, but I still see a lot of new investors with serious cash or purchasing power. There's still a ton of liquidity out there.

    Bidding up 30-50% would work for me. I wouldn't want to go much over 50% and my "value" might not be as high as the next guy as I assume the condition of the home is worst case, full gut, electrical plumbing needed etc etc.   I would target the properties in their current condition that would be worth less 100K. Sounds like this is a sector that would not have fierce competition. I am not an investor who does it for the interest. I target the sweet spot, property that has a better chance of not redeeming (vacant or abandoned or in need or lots of repairs) but it has to still be worth it. Not a tear down. If it is a tear down and the value of the land is less than the cost of the demo work I don't want it if you give it to me for free lol.  If the property is too nice it has a much higher chance of redeeming and it gets a lot more competition from the investors looking for the interest. I like vacant land, more likely to not redeem and less speculation on my part worried about it's condition. But it has to be decent vacant land, not something land locked, can't be built on or some obscure piece. Its much easier to calculate it's value, if similar lots are selling for 50K and I can get it for 10-20K  it doesn't redeem, i can clear title, etc list it and make some money.    Thanks for the info. 

    You may have to look at the surrounding counties with your strategy. Charleston is still crazy hot and any decent detached SFH is selling for $250k distressed or $400k+ on market. Even in the rough areas of N Charleston, homes that would sell for $50K in BR are selling for more than $200k. Most of the liens for these properties were going for $80k+ going off of memory. I had no illusions about acquiring properties via the tax sale in CHS - too many funds with deep pockets involved and too many wholesalers calling the property owners after the auction. I was talking with a realtor who had one of these properties listed - the owner had received more than 100 wholesale calls/texts/etc in the months after the auction. The CHS market is still red hot. 

    I will say this, though - SC just passed a de facto ban on wholesaling, which may slow down the market for these kinds of distressed properties. Wholesalers now have to close on their deals before re-marketing the property, so the high volume teams will likely face capital constraints. Supposedly, sub-to is also in the crosshairs of both the state and the CFPB. I expect this will crimp the current pace and volume for distressed sellers. This year's auction may be different. 
  • Investor · Covington, LA · Member since 2012 · 517 posts · 317 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Patrick Roberts:
    Quote from @Will Sifert:
    Quote from @Patrick Roberts:
    Quote from @Will Sifert:
    Quote from @Patrick Roberts:

    I like the SC process as well. I've attended the CHS county auction for the last 3 years and bid on several liens last year but did not obtain any. I believe you still have go through a quiet title process in SC and I know this has caused problems for other investors in obtaining clear title and title insurance in future sales. Even though the CHS county auction is in person, it was still saturated. In 2022, the auctioneer made a comment about seeing a lot of new faces and asked how many people were bidding for the first time - about 2/3 of the room put their hands up. Last year, I had a person sitting next to me tell that liens were 100% safe and there was no way to lose money. That being said, there were some very professional crews (funds) there. I plan on attending some other county auctions this year and branching out from just Charleston.

    Overall, though, I don't think its an efficient way to obtain properties. If I remember correctly, the redemption rate in CHS county is something like 80-90% and the interest that can be earned is capped. With the way people were bidding the last two years, the yields if the properties were redeemed were like 2-3%. Maybe I'm missing something, but to me, it seemed oversaturated and this crushed the potential returns. Again, this was specific to CHS county. 

    Have you tried Civic Source in LA? We bought a property in the BR area in 2020 and it was pretty straightforward. Just hard to find good properties on it. I haven't messed around with Nola much, just BR. 



     I’m very familiar with civic source they started about 10 years ago to fix a problem. In LA the tax liens that didn’t sell were adjudicated to the parish. The laws dealing with adjudicated auctions were cumbersome, each parish had to deal with it and very very few adjudicated auctions ever happened.  Civic source was created to take decades worth of properties that had been sitting idle on the parish’s books and make it easy for them to auction them off and put it back in commerce.  The problem was no one wanted to buy or pay much for property that was not insured with title ins so civic source purchased a title insurance company and insured the properties they auctioned of. That is what gave us USNational which has been a big help in my area as I can use them to insure tax sale properties I acquire when in most cases other title ins companies will not.  The negative is that the title ins can cost 3-4x or more than what traditional title ins will cost. It also means the buyer has to be explained all of this and they have to use USNational when they go to sell, and explain it to their future buyers.

    With all that being said when the market is soft or there is lots of inventory I’ve noticed tax sale properties (including the adjudicated you buy off of civic source) will typically sell for about 10-20% less than market value.   Every time I go to bid on property on civic source people are bidding it up to or over market value. It’s crazy.   Just about anything online is going to be so competitive that you rarely if ever will find a deal. If I am going to pay market value I will browse the mls to see what is for sale, not overbid for a tax sale property.

    In SC I was hopeful, since they are all in person that there would be some smaller to medium counties that wouldn’t be too competitive to where you could still get a decent deal, if it doesn’t redeem.
    What % of value do you think most property was being bid up to? I would be looking for mostly abandoned or run down houses that need repairs. They typically have a better chance of not redeeming. Or even vacant land. 


    I agree - the handful of worthwhile properties on Civic source in BR were bid up like crazy on the few that I watched. Last year in CHS, liens for any house worth owning seemed to be selling for 30-50% of market value. Good properties were typically higher than that. Marginal properties were hit and miss. About 4-6 buyers got the lion's share of the SFH 200k-400k homes. If I remember correctly, East Coast Tax Auction LLC and Red Rock Capital were two of the high volume bidders. A couple of local individuals as well. I recorded a list of what most of the liens sold for and tracked the wins of the clearly professional bidders for research and learning purposes. A little bit of vacant land, but most of it seemed worthless from what I remember researching. I was primarily targeting properties that were likely to redeem and would yield me at least 12%, so my bidding and research were structured around that. I had no illusions about acquiring properties this way.

    Between the tax auctions, the FB groups I'm a part of, and what I see in my day to day as a lender, my general opinion is that there's still too much money chasing too few deals as a whole. The marker is still frothy and most of the "deals" I see are dogshit. The higher rates have somewhat slowed down the "get rich quick with no money down" crowd as financing is more difficult, but I still see a lot of new investors with serious cash or purchasing power. There's still a ton of liquidity out there.

    Bidding up 30-50% would work for me. I wouldn't want to go much over 50% and my "value" might not be as high as the next guy as I assume the condition of the home is worst case, full gut, electrical plumbing needed etc etc.   I would target the properties in their current condition that would be worth less 100K. Sounds like this is a sector that would not have fierce competition. I am not an investor who does it for the interest. I target the sweet spot, property that has a better chance of not redeeming (vacant or abandoned or in need or lots of repairs) but it has to still be worth it. Not a tear down. If it is a tear down and the value of the land is less than the cost of the demo work I don't want it if you give it to me for free lol.  If the property is too nice it has a much higher chance of redeeming and it gets a lot more competition from the investors looking for the interest. I like vacant land, more likely to not redeem and less speculation on my part worried about it's condition. But it has to be decent vacant land, not something land locked, can't be built on or some obscure piece. Its much easier to calculate it's value, if similar lots are selling for 50K and I can get it for 10-20K  it doesn't redeem, i can clear title, etc list it and make some money.    Thanks for the info. 

    You may have to look at the surrounding counties with your strategy. Charleston is still crazy hot and any decent detached SFH is selling for $250k distressed or $400k+ on market. Even in the rough areas of N Charleston, homes that would sell for $50K in BR are selling for more than $200k. Most of the liens for these properties were going for $80k+ going off of memory. I had no illusions about acquiring properties via the tax sale in CHS - too many funds with deep pockets involved and too many wholesalers calling the property owners after the auction. I was talking with a realtor who had one of these properties listed - the owner had received more than 100 wholesale calls/texts/etc in the months after the auction. The CHS market is still red hot. 

    I will say this, though - SC just passed a de facto ban on wholesaling, which may slow down the market for these kinds of distressed properties. Wholesalers now have to close on their deals before re-marketing the property, so the high volume teams will likely face capital constraints. Supposedly, sub-to is also in the crosshairs of both the state and the CFPB. I expect this will crimp the current pace and volume for distressed sellers. This year's auction may be different. 

     I am not a fan of wholesalers, 98% of them are unethical and straight up lie at least from my experiences. 

    Charleston would definitely be too big for what I’m looking for. I think a small to medium size county where it’s mostly locals and not out-of-state companies would work best.  may be a county that has some growth potential, not a in the middle of nowhere place that few people would be looking to buy. Any suggestions? ;)


    i’m thinking maybe something about an hour drive from one of the big airports. would make it easier for me flying in and renting a car.. 


  • Lender · Charleston, SC · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    Bluffton, Sumter, maybe Spartanburg and Greenville. Dorchester and Berkeley are two of the counties surrounding CHS. I'll be attending quite a few of these this year

  • John UnderwoodPro Member
    Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Patrick Roberts:

    I like the SC process as well. I've attended the CHS county auction for the last 3 years and bid on several liens last year but did not obtain any. I believe you still have go through a quiet title process in SC and I know this has caused problems for other investors in obtaining clear title and title insurance in future sales. Even though the CHS county auction is in person, it was still saturated. In 2022, the auctioneer made a comment about seeing a lot of new faces and asked how many people were bidding for the first time - about 2/3 of the room put their hands up. Last year, I had a person sitting next to me tell that liens were 100% safe and there was no way to lose money. That being said, there were some very professional crews (funds) there. I plan on attending some other county auctions this year and branching out from just Charleston.

    Overall, though, I don't think its an efficient way to obtain properties. If I remember correctly, the redemption rate in CHS county is something like 80-90% and the interest that can be earned is capped. With the way people were bidding the last two years, the yields if the properties were redeemed were like 2-3%. Maybe I'm missing something, but to me, it seemed oversaturated and this crushed the potential returns. Again, this was specific to CHS county. 

    Have you tried Civic Source in LA? We bought a property in the BR area in 2020 and it was pretty straightforward. Just hard to find good properties on it. I haven't messed around with Nola much, just BR. 




     I have been buying Tax liens in the SC Upstate for over a decade. I get houses every year. I know what to look for to increase my chances as most do redeem. I have enough rentals now that I have quit my job as an electrical engineer.

  • Lender · Charleston, SC · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @John Underwood:
    Quote from @Patrick Roberts:

    I like the SC process as well. I've attended the CHS county auction for the last 3 years and bid on several liens last year but did not obtain any. I believe you still have go through a quiet title process in SC and I know this has caused problems for other investors in obtaining clear title and title insurance in future sales. Even though the CHS county auction is in person, it was still saturated. In 2022, the auctioneer made a comment about seeing a lot of new faces and asked how many people were bidding for the first time - about 2/3 of the room put their hands up. Last year, I had a person sitting next to me tell that liens were 100% safe and there was no way to lose money. That being said, there were some very professional crews (funds) there. I plan on attending some other county auctions this year and branching out from just Charleston.

    Overall, though, I don't think its an efficient way to obtain properties. If I remember correctly, the redemption rate in CHS county is something like 80-90% and the interest that can be earned is capped. With the way people were bidding the last two years, the yields if the properties were redeemed were like 2-3%. Maybe I'm missing something, but to me, it seemed oversaturated and this crushed the potential returns. Again, this was specific to CHS county. 

    Have you tried Civic Source in LA? We bought a property in the BR area in 2020 and it was pretty straightforward. Just hard to find good properties on it. I haven't messed around with Nola much, just BR. 




     I have been buying Tax liens in the SC Upstate for over a decade. I get houses every year. I know what to look for to increase my chances as most do redeem. I have enough rentals now that I have quit my job as an electrical engineer.


     Nice. Are you seeing a lot of saturation at the auctions, or is the crowd relatively small? The auction last year in CHS had several hundred bidders - not sure if this is normal in the other counties. 

  • John UnderwoodPro Member
    Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    2y

    We probably had about 500 bidders. This is typical.

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