Criminal Complaint in Cleveland.

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Criminal Complaint in Cleveland.

Johnathan Norman
Seattle, WA 路 Member since 2014 路 56 posts 路 45 votes

So i got a court notice yesterday from the county regarding a "criminal" offense that could result in jail time. Obviously I freaked out and after talking to a few lawyers I was really surprised.   In one of my properties the tenant left a trash can outside before 12:00, this was  considered a health violation which is also a misdemeanor. I have 7 days from the day the mail was sent to plead guilty and pay a $510 dollar fine.  

I then got a separate health code violation for the "waste" in the garbage can which was outside before 12:00.  This is another $510 dollar fine and also a criminal offense. 

Since i live outside the state it took longer than 7 days for me to get the mail. So i'm forced to hire a lawyer to show up in court to address the issue. Every lawyer i spoke to said the same thing, they don't have to give warnings and lately the county seems to be targeting LLC's holding property.

So just a heads up for others. 

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Matthew Paul
Severna Park, MD 路 Member since 2013 路 7k+ posts 路 7k+ votes
8y

" Hey Bud what are you in for? "  , i left my trash can out too long . " how about you ? "  I left grass clippings on the sidewalk .   

9Reply
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  • Federico Gutierrez
    Realtor 路 Cleveland, OH 路 Member since 2015 路 2k+ posts 路 857 votes
    8y

    Keep me updated what happens on this. Seems like a money grab

    0Reply
  • Phil Morgan
    Investor 路 Amherst, OH 路 Member since 2017 路 79 posts 路 43 votes
    8y

    Geez, what neighborhood is this in? I鈥檒l have to reinforce this with my tenants. 

    0Reply
  • James Galla
    Attorney 路 Akron, OH 路 Member since 2016 路 535 posts 路 389 votes
    8y

    Gotta maintain those properties and not let them turn ratchet. The capias list for Housing Court is always fun to review to see which properties are allegedly (innocent until proven guilty and all) excessively delinquent. If you take a look, you'll see that you're not the only one getting smacked.

    You should definitely review what your property manager is doing, because if you are getting cited, then you know that property manager hasn't been near the property lately.

    0Reply
  • Gwen Fyfe
    Rental Property Investor 路 Cleveland, OH 路 Member since 2016 路 227 posts 路 287 votes
    8y

    That's nuts. What neighborhood?

    I left a can by the curb of a vacant property for weeks, totally forgot to move it back since I wasn't there much. The guy who does all my inspections from the city called me up and reminded me, I drove over and moved it. No biggie. I can't imagine slapping you with a grand in fines for one day, maybe your property manager hasn't been keeping up with things?

    0Reply
  • Johnathan Norman
    OP
    Seattle, WA 路 Member since 2014 路 56 posts 路 45 votes
    8y

    This is a duplex in Clark Fulton.  I know it is tempting to assume that since i got citied my PM isn't taking care of the property but I use a 3rd party service to check my properties  randomly.  Moreover I have multiple units throughout the city for years, none with a single issue. 

    I honestly wouldn't be surprised in the tenant left a trash can outside for a few days, I've personally done this at my own home when traveling.   I'm just not sure two $510 fines , without a warning, is really a reasonable response. 

    1Reply
  • Matthew Paul
    Severna Park, MD 路 Member since 2013 路 7k+ posts 路 7k+ votes
    8y

    @Johnathan Norman      I am sorry Jonhathan , I have had to deny your request to rent my house due to your criminal record . We can not make exceptions . Trash can criminals are the worst 

    6Reply
  • Johnathan Norman
    OP
    Seattle, WA 路 Member since 2014 路 56 posts 路 45 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Matthew Paul:

    @Johnathan Norman      I am sorry Jonhathan , I have had to deny your request to rent my house due to your criminal record . We can not make exceptions . Trash can criminals are the worst 

    maybe instead of paying the fine just do the time which i'm guessing is 1 night in jail

    come out of Cuyahoga county jail as a hardened landlord with a rep on the streets. 

    people will say "poor guy just wanted to build wealth and have passive income... now look at him"

    16Reply
  • Matthew Paul
    Severna Park, MD 路 Member since 2013 路 7k+ posts 路 7k+ votes
    8y

    " Hey Bud what are you in for? "  , i left my trash can out too long . " how about you ? "  I left grass clippings on the sidewalk .   

    9Reply
  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker 路 Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH 路 Member since 2013 路 30k+ posts 路 20k+ votes
    8y

    Pro tip. If you own the property in your personal name as opposed to an LLC if you receive a fine it will be substantially lower than the same fine given to an LLC. I believe the same violation only carries a $50 fine if you own the home in your personal name.

    5Reply
  • Jim Lopez
    Riverside, CA 路 Member since 2018 路 6 posts 路 2 votes
    8y

    But for owning the rental property under personal name, will this be in trouble when tenant sue the landlord?

    0Reply
  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker 路 Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH 路 Member since 2013 路 30k+ posts 路 20k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jim Lopez:

    But for owning the rental property under personal name, will this be in trouble when tenant sue the landlord?

    Owning it in an LLC doesn't mean they can't sue you.

    0Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant 路 Summerlin, NV 路 Member since 2014 路 45k+ posts 路 66k+ votes
    8y

    How is any PM going to keep this from happening if the can was out one night.. they would have to have 24 hour surveillance  which maybe that's what landlording is going to come to.

    be like London... everyone is on camera all the time. 

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    1Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor 路 Princeton, TX 路 Member since 2014 路 1k+ posts 路 1k+ votes
    8y

    @James Wise  Are you joking?  Please tell me they do not have two fine schedules.

    This thread has explained to me why Cleveland is going to way of Detroit.

    I would consider this the city trying to be rude.  I do not put up with rude.  It would probably cost me more than the fine but the people at the city would wish they had never heard of me.

    I think I would send letters to everyone on the block the mayor lives on. Telling them I want to buy three houses on the block for transitional housing. I think aged out juvenile sex offenders, sober living, and prostitutes wanting to get of the streets would be a good fit. Then I would probably explain to them it is the policy of the federal government to have those in residential neighborhoods so the City and/or HOA cannot stop them.

    2Reply
  • Johnathan Norman
    OP
    Seattle, WA 路 Member since 2014 路 56 posts 路 45 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @James Wise  Are you joking?  Please tell me they do not have two fine schedules.

    This thread has explained to me why Cleveland is going to way of Detroit.

    I would consider this the city trying to be rude.  I do not put up with rude.  It would probably cost me more than the fine but the people at the city would wish they had never heard of me.

    I think I would send letters to everyone on the block the mayor lives on. Telling them I want to buy three houses on the block for transitional housing. I think aged out juvenile sex offenders, sober living, and prostitutes wanting to get of the streets would be a good fit. Then I would probably explain to them it is the policy of the federal government to have those in residential neighborhoods so the City and/or HOA cannot stop them.

    They do and lately they have been targeting LLC's. Its certainly disappointing , I like to think of myself as someone who is making a contribution to the city. I pay taxes not only on time but early, not only do i have a professional PM service but i have a 3rd party service check my properties as well.

    My hope is that this issue is a one time thing and maybe I just got an inspector who was having a really bad day. If however this continues I'll certainly liquidate my assets and go elsewhere.  I work a 9-5 at a fortune 500 company, I can't risk "Public nuisance" on my record just for an investment. 

    In the meantime my court date is in a week and we will see how things play out.  I am hoping more rational minds will prevail. 

    1Reply
  • Kathy Argento
    Lender 路 All, Nationwide 路 Member since 2015 路 144 posts 路 46 votes
    8y

    My Cleveland tenant left a sofa out in the front yard when she moved out.  Cost me $1,000.  Grrrrrr!!! 

    0Reply
  • Federico Gutierrez
    Realtor 路 Cleveland, OH 路 Member since 2015 路 2k+ posts 路 857 votes
    8y

    @Kathy Argento no way of fighting it?

    It's just silly a landlord is held accountable for the tenants misuse/mistakes. Landlords have a hard enough problem just getting the tenants to pay rent on time..

    0Reply
  • Johnathan Norman
    OP
    Seattle, WA 路 Member since 2014 路 56 posts 路 45 votes
    8y

    Ok final update. I almost hired a lawyer but Holton-Wise said they would handle it for me.  I have to admit I was a bit worried because I assumed they would just have @James Wise go to the court dressed like Atticus Finch and he would argue the case. Fortunately they have lawyers and worked things out so that i only had to pay $100 bucks.  So thanks to those guys for resolving this one for me.

    I'm sure the trash thing will be a problem however, the duplex is on a corner lot so ensuring the trash is not visible is not simple. I could update the lease to state tenants are responsible for any fines from the city but in a multi-family unit determining who is at fault will not be easy. 

    3Reply
  • Russ Draper
    Investor 路 Boston, MA 路 Member since 2015 路 398 posts 路 147 votes
    8y

    Wow, if I had to deal with that I would just sell the property.  That kind of over-reaching is ridiculous, no warnings is unacceptable!

    0Reply
  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker 路 Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH 路 Member since 2013 路 30k+ posts 路 20k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @James Wise  Are you joking?  Please tell me they do not have two fine schedules.

    This thread has explained to me why Cleveland is going to way of Detroit.

    I would consider this the city trying to be rude.  I do not put up with rude.  It would probably cost me more than the fine but the people at the city would wish they had never heard of me.

    I think I would send letters to everyone on the block the mayor lives on. Telling them I want to buy three houses on the block for transitional housing. I think aged out juvenile sex offenders, sober living, and prostitutes wanting to get of the streets would be a good fit. Then I would probably explain to them it is the policy of the federal government to have those in residential neighborhoods so the City and/or HOA cannot stop them.

     Yup, two fee schedules........馃槕

    0Reply
  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker 路 Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH 路 Member since 2013 路 30k+ posts 路 20k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Johnathan Norman:

    Ok final update. I almost hired a lawyer but Holton-Wise said they would handle it for me.  I have to admit I was a bit worried because I assumed they would just have @James Wise go to the court dressed like Atticus Finch and he would argue the case. Fortunately they have lawyers and worked things out so that i only had to pay $100 bucks.  So thanks to those guys for resolving this one for me.

    I'm sure the trash thing will be a problem however, the duplex is on a corner lot so ensuring the trash is not visible is not simple. I could update the lease to state tenants are responsible for any fines from the city but in a multi-family unit determining who is at fault will not be easy. 

     馃ぃ馃ぃ馃ぃ

    Glad we got it resolved. 馃憡

    1Reply
  • Charlene McNamara
    Rental Property Investor 路 Nevada City, CA 路 Member since 2017 路 74 posts 路 70 votes
    8y

    Is this only an issue within the city of Cleveland, not the surrounding communities? Does anyone know?

    0Reply
  • John Collins
    Investor 路 Denver, CO 路 Member since 2015 路 49 posts 路 24 votes
    8y

    I think a shout out to the Wise man is in order  handling this issue in a timely fashion . But what a pita to have to deal with for J . 

    2Reply
  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker 路 Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH 路 Member since 2013 路 30k+ posts 路 20k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @John Collins:

    I think a shout out to the Wise man is in order  handling this issue in a timely fashion . But what a pita to have to deal with for J . 

     Thank you sir. Much appreciated.

    2Reply
  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker 路 Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH 路 Member since 2013 路 30k+ posts 路 20k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Charlene McNamara:

    Is this only an issue within the city of Cleveland, not the surrounding communities? Does anyone know?

     Pretty much any municipality can & sometimes will fine property owners for violations &/or things that the tenants do. This is not just here in the Cleveland area. This is nationwide. As for the Cleveland market in particular the city of Cleveland itself has some of the highest fines of the surrounding municipalities but they are not the only one that can be a pain at times. I find Newburgh Heights to be another city that is difficult to deal with.

    Case & point the only way for a person to ensure they never get fined by a city for something one of their tenants did at a rental property is to avoid buying rental properties all together. If you own rentals you'll get snagged here & there. Same thing with evictions & or bad tenants. Just part of the biz.

    1Reply
  • Brian S.
    Rental Property Investor 路 Cleveland, OH 路 Member since 2016 路 126 posts 路 71 votes
    8y

    @Johnathan Norman

    I haven't read every response in this thread, but seems like this issue may have been resolved. 

    I had a similar issue last year in Parma OH with the city fining $150 for a garbage can out one day later than it supposed to be. The property is in my name, not an LLC. I was livid about such pettiness from the city. In any case, I called the local council woman and she actually got it handled for me! I didn't have to go to court or pay the fine. She was awesome! But I just wanted to share this as another option if anyone finds themselves in a similar situation.

    Brian

    2Reply
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