Going through Refinance on our 1st BRRRR - closing costs review?

Going through Refinance on our 1st BRRRR - closing costs review?

Rental Property Investor · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2018 · 37 posts · 6 votes

Howdy folks,

Greetings. We're wrapping up our first multi-family BRRRR project and finalizing the cash-out refinance process now. We're expecting to close next Monday and just received the closing disclosure statement, I'm trying to figure out if the associated refi costs (~$10.4k) are exorbitantly high or if we're in line with normal costs.

We purchased the duplex in May 2019 for $65k, put about $70k into it and got it appraised for $164k. We're taking out a new 30yr VA loan @ 2.75% for $130k, leaving 20% equity in the property and taking out nearly all of the money we put into it - minus the costs of new tools, education, etc.

Here's a breakdown on the closing costs we're looking at:

In one way, I feel like we lucked out with not paying any origination fees or discount points, but in another way it feels like ~$10.4k is higher than normal of what I've read about closing costs being.  I'm not sure if it's completely accurate, but I've read that typical closing costs range anywhere from 2-6% of the total loan amount.  The $7,941.14 is on the top end of that estimate, with being just over 6%.  I'm unsure if I'm interpreting it correctly, but I'm also adding the extra $2,443.68 to the total amount of 'closing costs' as those are additional fees we've already paid for.

Any insight/feedback on the closing costs and our first BRRRR in general are certainly welcome and appreciated!

Cheers and have a great day.

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Stephanie P.Pro Member
Washington, DC Mortgage Lender/Broker · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
5y

@Jim Peckey

Even though this is a refinance, I would stop the process look into conventional financing. It's going to take a long time to make up for that VA funding fee and in reality, the rate on a conventional 80% ltv loan will be comparable. You could use your VA eligibility on the next home for the purchase rather than wasting it on this refinance. VA is great if you don't have the down payment to purchase. Other than that, it's just not (other than a VA IRRRL)

Stephanie

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  • Real Estate Investor · Unadilla NY · Member since 2017 · 418 posts · 297 votes
    5y

    Everything looks normal to me except for this "VA FUNDING FEE" of close to 3000. But then again your getting an awesome interest rate. Also insurance is included in this which normally I would just pay for myself but either way you pay for it either through the closing or pay for it ahead of time to close.

  • Rental Property Investor · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2018 · 37 posts · 6 votes
    5y

    Thanks for the insight Dan M. I'm planning to follow up with my loan processor tomorrow to find out if there's any negotiating down the VA Funding Fee - that does seem to be the highest fee in the closing costs.

    In calculating the total closing costs, am I interpreting it correctly by adding the $7,941.14 "total closing costs" and the extra $2,443.68 "total other costs" for a total of ~$10.4k?  Or should I only be looking at the "total closing costs" number of $7.9k?  

    I'd like to make sure I'm accurately assessing the actual "closing costs".

    Thanks again and cheers!

  • Whitney HuttenPro Member
    Investor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    @Jim Peckey. Your closing costs are the $7.9K.  You have a tax in there that is causing this to jump up on you.  Other than that, it seems to look good!  Congrats!

  • Hoboken, NJ · Member since 2020 · 6 posts · 6 votes
    5y

    I'm new here so please anyone more knowledgeable correct me if wrong ... but if you have a service connected disability rating by the VA of 10% or more you qualify to have that fee waved.

  • Rental Property Investor · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2018 · 37 posts · 6 votes
    5y

    @Whitney Hutten - thanks so much for clarifying and helping me to better understand the total closing costs! Without that VA funding fee, the closing costs would be much more in line with what I've been reading about for sure.

    I haven't watched podcast #340 yet, but I just brought it up and interested in giving it a watch now.

    Cheers and have an excellent day!

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    5y

    I've never used the VA loan I am eligible for because of the funding fee.

    Conventional loans are generally a better value than VA or FHA.

  • Rental Property Investor · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2018 · 37 posts · 6 votes
    5y

    @Michael Brant - that's a good question! While I am former military, I don't receive any sort of VA/disability benefits, which puts me in the non-exempt category. From a quick search online, here's the requirements for exempt status:

    • Receiving VA compensation for a service-connected disability, or
    • Eligible to receive VA compensation for a service-connected disability, but you're receiving retirement or active-duty pay instead, or
    • The surviving spouse of a Veteran who died in service or from a service-connected disability, or who was totally disabled, and you're receiving Dependency and Indemnity Compensation (DIC), or
    • A service member with a proposed or memorandum rating, before the loan closing date, saying you're eligible to get compensation because of a pre-discharge claim, or
    • A service member on active duty who before or on the loan closing date provides evidence of having received the Purple Heart

    To your point, it doesn't list a disability percentage in order to qualify, rather receiving VA compensation in any way qualifies you.

  • Rental Property Investor · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2018 · 37 posts · 6 votes
    5y

    @Steve Vaughan - thanks for the response! This being our first refi using a VA loan and while I appreciate the low interest rate, I've learned my lesson to go with a conventional loan from now on. Especially considering I'm debt free and with a good credit score. Admittedly, I put a bit too much emphasis on the lowest possible interest rate, which the VA loan seemed to offer at the time.

    Cheers and have a great day!

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Jim Peckey:

    @Steve Vaughan - thanks for the response! This being our first refi using a VA loan and while I appreciate the low interest rate, I've learned my lesson to go with a conventional loan from now on. Especially considering I'm debt free and with a good credit score. Admittedly, I put a bit too much emphasis on the lowest possible interest rate, which the VA loan seemed to offer at the time.

    Cheers and have a great day!

    If the VA rate is lower, there is definitely a cost/benefit analysis you can easily run to find the break-even month. Same with not having PMI for no/low dp below 20%. That's definitely a benefit if true and applicable.

  • Stephanie P.Pro Member
    Washington, DC Mortgage Lender/Broker · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    @Jim Peckey

    Even though this is a refinance, I would stop the process look into conventional financing. It's going to take a long time to make up for that VA funding fee and in reality, the rate on a conventional 80% ltv loan will be comparable. You could use your VA eligibility on the next home for the purchase rather than wasting it on this refinance. VA is great if you don't have the down payment to purchase. Other than that, it's just not (other than a VA IRRRL)

    Stephanie

  • Rental Property Investor · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2018 · 37 posts · 6 votes
    5y

    @Stephanie P. - thanks so much for the response! You've definitely had me take a step back and question our current trajectory with the refinance and looking at purchasing a new home for ourselves next year, which the VA loan would certainly come in handy for.

    When we started the refinance process a few months ago, we were shooting for a 95% LTV ratio, which the VA loan made sense with given the no PMI. I've since scaled back to 80% LTV to ensure there's ample monthly cash flow. If we don't need to worry about PMI now and the rates are comparable, it makes sense to push back the closing date to save on closing costs as well as bank the VA loan opportunity on the next house purchase.

    I really appreciate the insight and nudge in the right direction.

    Thanks again and have an excellent day!

  • Stephanie P.Pro Member
    Washington, DC Mortgage Lender/Broker · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    @Jim Peckey

    I see a lot of people that don't take financing or the various scenarios financing provides into consideration when planning and in truth, your financing should be the driver of your plan.  

    When house hacking, I often recommend the first house be an FHA multi-family or even an multi-family with an FHA 203K. Make the next house another FHA multi-family that's far away from the first or go with a conventional multi-family if moving far away is not feasible. Then go with either another conventional multi-family or a conventional single family and for the big house that you're going to live in for a while, go with a VA loan so there is less out of pocket expense and maximum use of someone else's money. With BRRRR, it's similar.

    Stephanie  

  • Member since 2020 · 20 posts · 9 votes
    5y

    @Jim Peckey I would look into get a VA disability rating if you are going to use the VA loan. I got out in ‘04 when nobody talked about getting rated. I got hit with a pretty large funding fee the first time I refinanced. I finally looked into getting rated and have never looked back.

    There are a ton of benefits beside the funding fee waiver. In California, I can send my kids to UC or state schools for free.

  • Realtor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2016 · 170 posts · 227 votes
    5y

    It looks high but might be due to a VA loan. That's the problem with a refinance is all the associated costs. I've been refinancing with Huntington in ohio with $500 closing costs on qualified properties, low income areas but 80% of columbus is a low income area so works out well for me.

    Also you shouldn't include prepaids in the cost like interest, insurance premiums, taxes etc. because you would pay those anyway :)

  • Rental Property Investor · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2018 · 37 posts · 6 votes
    5y

    @Stephanie P. - Thanks again for your insight, I really appreciate it.  I also completely agree that sound financing and positive numbers should precede a plan.  

    We're still working on our first "investment" property, and so far we're following pretty closely to your advice. We purchased it on a VA loan with 15% down and have been house hacking, while steadily making improvements to the property. We're finally at the point of having the other unit fully renovated, rented out and we're looking for our next multi-family property – ideally a quadplex. It sounds like we should be considering an FHA or conventional loan for that property, which makes sense. It also makes sense to reserve the VA loan for the bigger house purchase that we plan on making within the next year or two and once we build our portfolio to 10 rental units.

    We recently found a quadplex that's zoned commercial. Admittedly, I don't have much experience in the commercial world but I'm going to be shopping for a commercial loan over the next few days. I'm just hoping the process & acquiring a pre-approval letter won't jeopardize or conflict with the refinance we're currently working to finalize, especially considering there's going to be a delay with switching from a VA loan to a conventional loan in the 11th hour.
    If you work with borrowers in NY, I’d be glad to explore commercial loan options with you.

    Thanks again and have a great upcoming weekend!

    Cheers.

  • Rental Property Investor · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2018 · 37 posts · 6 votes
    5y

    @Sean Fillmore - thanks for the response! I don't know why I haven't looked into getting a VA disability rating by now, I can see there's numerous benefits for sure. I got out in '02 and despite not having any major disabilities, I certainly wouldn't turn down any offered benefits over the minor injuries I sustained while on active duty. I've been looking at the VA website this evening and attempted to start an online claim, but it looks like the website is prompting me to call in during normal business hours - perhaps I'll try giving them a call tomorrow. I've always envisioned the process to get a disability rating to be intensive with having to visit numerous doctors to generate a paper trail, submit updated medical records as evidence, and all that jazz. Have you found getting a disability rating to be a hassle in general, or has that been pretty easy to do?

    Cheers and have an excellent upcoming weekend!

  • Stephanie P.Pro Member
    Washington, DC Mortgage Lender/Broker · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    @Jim Peckey

    Commercial loans, in general, don't work for owner occupied loans. I DM'd you for further discussion.

    Thanks

    Stephanie

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