[Calc Review] Would you take a lower ROI for an A-Class Turn Key?

[Calc Review] Would you take a lower ROI for an A-Class Turn Key?

Rental Property Investor · Staten Island, NY · Member since 2018 · 124 posts · 50 votes

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*This link comes directly from our calculators, based on information input by the member who posted.

Greetings Again BP Community,

Here's my dilemma. In my valiant quest for a good value add property as a long distance investor, I've learned some stuff. 

  • Stuff 1: Putting together a good and reliable team for your first out of state purchase is daunting.
  • Stuff 2: Most turn key providers are sucking up every bit of equity in exchange for a break-even property at best that will still likely need some help in the near future because of rehab shortcuts and location. 
  • Stuff 3: If I had the team in place and the deal ready, I'd bank all the equity and cash flow but would have to endure the process of getting to that point.

So here's my issue. I have actually found a good, trustworthy, and highly recommended turnkey provider who works with Investors and ARE investors themselves. I communicate directly with head of the outfit which is nice. They cover the property management in house. Only rehab in A & B Class neighborhoods. And have an average tenant vacancy of 3.4% over the last 10 years. The rehab itself is a bit above average but for good reason. They update all the bathrooms, kitchen, plumbing, electrical, and replace the roof. All hard surface floors and counters are installed for ease of maintenance. Their whole goal is to front load the property with all these updates so that the investor can ACTUALLY cash-flow. BTW, this is my review not a regurgitation of some advertisement from them.

So the question is, until I can get a good and reliable team of people in place that can execute the deals for me, Would a low purchase price turn-key property in a Class-A neighborhood that cash flows $150-$200 with lower CAPX, Vacancy, and MX costs really be such a bad idea? At least until I get some more experience and connections.

Anxiously awaiting your thoughts!

-Adam Scheetz

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
7y

this subject has been talked about a bunch on BP.. why do people sell cash flow assets.

the argument that they must be selling the dogs and keeping the good ones is not reality.

I have been funding turn key companies for going on 20 years now.. they sell almost all their properties.

they are in the business of buy rehab and sell.. they are not in the landlord business per se.. now some will have some properties but its not their goal to own hundreds of homes.. 

its hard to finance all of those first off.

just like me who builds new homes why don't I keep them all.. well because I want to sell them that's my inventory to sell just like anyone else and I make more on one sale of a new home than I would with 20 years of cash flow at 200 a month.. so its what I choose to do.. Same with those whose business is flipping they just happen to concentrate on investors instead of home owners.

Keep in mind in many of these neighborhoods.. there is no retail sales to homeowners there is only sales to investors.. this is quite common in any area were 20% down gives you positive 200 a month.. 

I tried the big landlord gig I did not care for it.. I had over 300 SFRs the happiest day of my life was when I sold that portfolio so now its only build or rehab for retail or we sell a lot of product to investors as well. I have no personal interest in owning rentals..  so that's why I don't care how good they are I don't like it.. LOL  But that does not mean I cant provide a product make a profit when I sell for those that want to own cash flow rentals. 

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  • Rental Property Investor · Erie, PA · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    7y

    Ask yourself ..If they are investors themselves and find hidden turnkey gems with no turnover that good in great neighborhoods..then why don’t they keep them instead ? It’s a legitimate question isn’t it ?  they all have a great pitch with glowing reviews and often the deals look good on paper and Often Turnkeys are so sanitized that there is little to no meat left on the bone . If you can’t get several hundred per door profit each month then I wouldn’t waste my time 

  • Rental Property Investor · Staten Island, NY · Member since 2018 · 124 posts · 50 votes
    7y

    He buys the properties himself and rehabs them to sell to investors. It's actually kind of smart if you think. Provide a good product, with minimal maintenance costs and manage the properties in order to attract buyers that tend to buy multiple properties from you as their source. They average about $220 per door. He does keep properties for his business but also liquidates certain ones to continue to generate capital. They don't find gems. They find bad properties in great neighborhoods and bring them up to modern standards. 

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    7y

    He keeps the good ones and passes the losers on to investors.

    Park your cash in a income fund and you will do better.

  • Rental Property Investor · Staten Island, NY · Member since 2018 · 124 posts · 50 votes
    7y

    By that logic there are no good wholesalers or flippers because they should just hold the good deals. Are you suggesting that because someone provides oppertunities for other people as a key principal of their business that the opportunity itself is lacking value? I admit there are bad turnkey operations out there, but a good product that cash flows and isn't in negative equity sounds like the goal of most investors. If some takes the hassle of that process and profits from it and leaves enough meat to have a viable deal I'm not sure that constitutes a "loser". @James Wachob What's your take on this topic? 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y

    this subject has been talked about a bunch on BP.. why do people sell cash flow assets.

    the argument that they must be selling the dogs and keeping the good ones is not reality.

    I have been funding turn key companies for going on 20 years now.. they sell almost all their properties.

    they are in the business of buy rehab and sell.. they are not in the landlord business per se.. now some will have some properties but its not their goal to own hundreds of homes.. 

    its hard to finance all of those first off.

    just like me who builds new homes why don't I keep them all.. well because I want to sell them that's my inventory to sell just like anyone else and I make more on one sale of a new home than I would with 20 years of cash flow at 200 a month.. so its what I choose to do.. Same with those whose business is flipping they just happen to concentrate on investors instead of home owners.

    Keep in mind in many of these neighborhoods.. there is no retail sales to homeowners there is only sales to investors.. this is quite common in any area were 20% down gives you positive 200 a month.. 

    I tried the big landlord gig I did not care for it.. I had over 300 SFRs the happiest day of my life was when I sold that portfolio so now its only build or rehab for retail or we sell a lot of product to investors as well. I have no personal interest in owning rentals..  so that's why I don't care how good they are I don't like it.. LOL  But that does not mean I cant provide a product make a profit when I sell for those that want to own cash flow rentals. 

  • Mike D'ArrigoPro Member
    Turn key provider · San Jose, CA · Member since 2010 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    @Adam Scheetz You didn't mention what market you are looking at but the numbers don't add up to me. An A class property will cash flow more than a C class simply because the rent is signifcantly higher than a C class. It's pretty hard to squeeze more cash flow out of $700 or $800 rent than it is $1200 rent. A C class night have a higher cash in cash ROI but it's never going to bring in as much income. An A class property with presumably a higher rent that has a high end rehab and only 3.4% vacancy should be delivering far more than $150-$200 per month rent unless you are in markets with high operating costs (taxes and insurance).

  • James WachobBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Memphis, TN · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 887 votes
    7y

    @Adam Scheetz most out-of-state investors share a similar story: They want to invest in Real Estate but it simply does not make sense where they live. Often homes are too expensive, there is no cashflow, or their home state is not landlord friendly. 

    My answer to this topic is always "it depends" 

    Some investors are looking for a predictable, passive income. Others have more time, experience, and money to go after deals that offer higher returns and perhaps more equity. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Brooklyn NY · Member since 2018 · 263 posts · 469 votes
    7y

    I would want more than 6% cash on cash ROI.

    You can get more than that in the market by doing nothing more than pressing submit and forgetting about it.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Staten Island, NY · Member since 2018 · 124 posts · 50 votes
    7y

    @Mike D'Arrigo I wouldn't say the Memphis market has high operating cost, certainly not compared to Jersey here. I don't follow your reasoning that An A or B class should necessarily command more rent from a post rehab purchase. The value comes in the stability of the rental not necessarily the sole rent. I could go buy a Duplex in Newark New Jersey that cash flows $500+. That doesn't make that a good investment. High crime, poor tenant pool, crappy schools, unfavorable laws, and ridiculously high taxes. This property I'm looking at is $138k with 20% down at $1250/mth gross rent with $1k in property tax, and the slightly lower percentages for things like CAPX, MX, and vacancy. Given the location, stability, and level of care taken by the rehabbed, it still seems like a beneficial option. I think @Jay Hinrichs and @James Wachob are right on. Our of state investors such as myself are interested in a long term stable asset from a reputable source versus looking at only cash flow. I'm loving all this feedback!!!!

  • Denmark · Member since 2018 · 90 posts · 56 votes
    7y

    @Adam Scheetz

    What are your expectations for appreciation for this property?

    Seems to me there is too much risk with the capex and repairs listed but if the area is appreciating it might still be a good deal.

  • Rental Property Investor · Staten Island, NY · Member since 2018 · 124 posts · 50 votes
    7y

    @Niels Bjørn Toppenberg

    http://www.noradarealestate.com/blog/invest-in-memphis-real-estate/

    https://www.fortunebuilders.com/memphis-tn-real-estate-market-trends-analysis-2018/

    Norada and Fortune Builders have good articles talking about different aspects of the memphis market.

    Basically, the market is appreciating around 6-8% depending on what source. Other factors include large corporations and non-profits dumping money into the local community.

  • Rental Property Investor · Union City, NJ · Member since 2018 · 40 posts · 66 votes
    7y

    @Adam Scheetz

    Ask the turnkey provider for a list of properties they've worked on. You should be able to find the owners of these properties through the county tax assessors website or a google search. Call them and see how the deals are working out. Get into the quantitative and qualitative aspects of their purchase and get deep into the details.

    Then ask the turnkey provider for references and call these investors.

    Get recent comps for rentals and make sure that $1250/month is legit. Do your own research as well through zillow, CL, etc. 

    Your closing costs seem low and the interest rate seems high. You should be getting sub 5% on a conventional mortgage right now. 

    Otherwise, good luck on your first OOS purchase!

  • Rental Property Investor · Staten Island, NY · Member since 2018 · 124 posts · 50 votes
    7y

    @Sen A. I always up the rate for a conventional loan to provide a bit of a cushion knowing I'll be sub 5%.

    As I progress further I will certainly be calling references. Thanks for your feedback!

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Adam Scheetz:

    @Mike D'Arrigo I wouldn't say the Memphis market has high operating cost, certainly not compared to Jersey here. I don't follow your reasoning that An A or B class should necessarily command more rent from a post rehab purchase. The value comes in the stability of the rental not necessarily the sole rent. I could go buy a Duplex in Newark New Jersey that cash flows $500+. That doesn't make that a good investment. High crime, poor tenant pool, crappy schools, unfavorable laws, and ridiculously high taxes. This property I'm looking at is $138k with 20% down at $1250/mth gross rent with $1k in property tax, and the slightly lower percentages for things like CAPX, MX, and vacancy. Given the location, stability, and level of care taken by the rehabbed, it still seems like a beneficial option. I think @Jay Hinrichs and @James Wachob are right on. Our of state investors such as myself are interested in a long term stable asset from a reputable source versus looking at only cash flow. I'm loving all this feedback!!!!

    what you describe is not an A class its C class.. and you will run the same tenant risks...  until you get to 1k to 1500 a door in the mid west your running tenant risk.. don't care what city.. what provider etc..  your talking about a 625 renter that's RISK just is.. they only have to make 1800 a month to qualify.. take off 625 for rent 200 for utls  50 for phone  50 for tv and that leaves them 800 a month to pay for transportation food and clothing.. how stable long term do you think that renter is..   now take a 1200 dollar renter in a nicer property.

    they need 3600 to qualify take off  1600 for rent utls etc. now they have 2k a month to live on.. HUGE difference. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Staten Island, NY · Member since 2018 · 124 posts · 50 votes
    7y

    @Jay Hinrichs I'm not sure where $625/mth came from? This is a SF @ $1250/mth. I'm sorry if I eluded to it being a duplex. If it were a duplex I would certainly expect more per door.

    Are saying you have properties where you are netting $1k-1.5k per door? Where is that at? And also, i'd assume there's no financing involved? 

    This provider, in addition to 3x rent as qualifying income, they also look at the budget, credit, and spending patterns of the prospect tenant and see their DTI ratio as a contributing factor. Like you mentioned, it's not just W-2 income, but what debt they have.


    That being said, $3750 is the new qualifying income, minus $1250 for rent, minus $200 for utilities, minus $150 for Phones and TV, minus $1000 for two expensive vehicles. That leaves them $1150 for food, fun, and savings.  Do those numbers sound more realistic? $45,000 annual take home seems middle America to me. Let me know your thoughts! Thanks.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Adam Scheetz:

    @Jay Hinrichs I'm not sure where $625/mth came from? This is a SF @ $1250/mth. I'm sorry if I eluded to it being a duplex. If it were a duplex I would certainly expect more per door.

    Are saying you have properties where you are netting $1k-1.5k per door? Where is that at? And also, i'd assume there's no financing involved? 

    This provider, in addition to 3x rent as qualifying income, they also look at the budget, credit, and spending patterns of the prospect tenant and see their DTI ratio as a contributing factor. Like you mentioned, it's not just W-2 income, but what debt they have.


    That being said, $3750 is the new qualifying income, minus $1250 for rent, minus $200 for utilities, minus $150 for Phones and TV, minus $1000 for two expensive vehicles. That leaves them $1150 for food, fun, and savings.  Do those numbers sound more realistic? $45,000 annual take home seems middle America to me. Let me know your thoughts! Thanks.

    my bad I read duplex up on top of your post and that's what I thought you were talking about your on the right track and I agree with your thought process.

    I look at these mid west markets I want to know median price for a given area then I want to buy at that or a little above. were investors get in trouble is thinking buy a 60k prop in a median price point like say Indy which is 120k will operate like a 120 to 140k prop.. simply does not work that way..  

  • Rental Property Investor · Staten Island, NY · Member since 2018 · 124 posts · 50 votes
    7y

    @Jay Hinrichs I've read enough "oops Stories" where people have done just that. Assumed that the Median Price would be their price on a discounted property only to find their ARV was on the lower end of the spectrum. The bad news is that researching and due diligence seems to be very time consuming, the good news is I can learn a lot by looking at all different facets of market to see what makes a deal sustainable and what doesn't. I enjoy the education aspect of all this but fear the analysis paralysis will get me if I ONLY analyze. I really appreciate your insight.

  • Rental Property Investor · Erie, PA · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    7y

    @Adam Scheetz

    138k and only 1250 in rent (if that is truly what you can get ) I’d say this isn’t that great of a deal at all , doesn’t even meet the 1% rule . If I spent 138,000$ id want more return than 200 bucks in my pocket each month unless of coarse the furnace or hvac died which will then leave you with minus 3,000$ for the month

  • Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    7y

    @Adam Scheetz. Are you getting an appraisal on this? I’m guessing it won’t appraise for 138k. Your capex seems low to me. Pretty much all your numbers seem low to me. Why would you invest in real estate for 6 percent return?

    Also how old are those fortune builder and norada articles you posted? Memphis isn’t appreciating at 6-8 percent anymore. You’ll be lucky if you get 3-4 percent now, I would say.

  • Rental Property Investor · Brooke Park Drive · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    Just name the city, neighborhood, turnkey provider,  and people can share their opinions/knowledge.

  • Curt DavisBusiness Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Memphis, TN · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    I have found that a lot of the homes I end up keeping for my personal portfolio are ones that do not fit into our criteria for our turnkey business. Recently I purchased a home with a tenant in place for $816 per month and my buy price is $50k. The home does have some level of deferred repairs so factoring in the purchased price and our repairs it does not work for our business but I happily kept it meself. 

    Curt Davis - KAIZEN Realty538 Reviews
  • Rental Property Investor · Staten Island, NY · Member since 2018 · 124 posts · 50 votes
    7y

    @Caleb Heimsoth the articles were 2018

  • Rental Property Investor · Staten Island, NY · Member since 2018 · 124 posts · 50 votes
    7y

    @Dennis M. The 1% rule part does bother me because that's one of those general rules I look at. But that's what prompted the origination of this post.

  • Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Adam Scheetz:

    @Caleb Heimsoth the articles were 2018

    I guess that’s good for the stuff I own in memphis but I’m not sure how accurate that is.   

  • Rental Property Investor · Staten Island, NY · Member since 2018 · 124 posts · 50 votes
    7y

    @Michael P.

    I've said it's Memphis. It's @James Wachob and his team at Memphis Investment Properties. He has a lot of free content and knowledge on the web. He's been timely and professional every time we speak. He's forth coming with his criteria for property selection and has answerd in detail every question I've had. Additionally you find a lot of reviews online and BP about how he does business.

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