First Fix and Flip. Eye-sore SFR into beautiful home.

First Fix and Flip. Eye-sore SFR into beautiful home.

Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 16 posts · 50 votes

Investment Info:

Single-family residence fix & flip investment.

Purchase price: $78,000
Cash invested: $59,000
Sale price: $137,793

After years wanting to invest in real estate, I finally took the plunge and made a cash purchase of an older SFR in SERIOUS need of TLC. I found the deal through a wholesaling company that has me on their email list. This particular home had sat vacant for 10 plus years since the previous owner had passed away. It's only occupants in that time were small mammals and insects. After an extensive rehab that went way over budget (both in terms of time and money), roughly 600 hours of mine and my wife's time, and some hard lessons learned, we listed the property and managed to sell for top market dollar. We managed to barely break even.

My approach of throw a lot of money and hard manual labor at the problem would have almost definitely resulted in a massive loss if it weren't for my wife. Her choices in design and decor resulted in immediate interest from lots of buyers, and the fact that she had just received her real estate license allowed us to avoid paying a seller agent fee. She really saved the day!

The whole situation made me reassess if fix and flip is the strategy I want to pursue. For now, as of April 2019, we are saving capital and focusing on our education.

Some highlights from the experience:

I purchased the home and paid for the rehab with a combo of cash and lines of bank credit and consumer credit cards. I love my Home Depot CC and it's 0% APR!

The GC we went with estimated the rehab time at 4-6 weeks. He took 13 weeks. This alone had a serious hit on profits due to how I had financed the deal.

I personally spent about 20 hours crawling through the attic on hands and knees with trash bags and a shop vac, removing critter pee-soaked insulation, rodent poop, snake skins and a dead squirrel. Can't recommend the experience.

Growing up, we had no mature trees in our yard. I always thought I wanted big trees. Clearing a half acre of overgrowth and fallen limbs by myself made me reassess this desire.

I won't get into particulars, but we learned that it would have been prudent to check the sex offender registry map prior to buying a fix and flip. A potential buyer's due diligence on that front lost us a contract and ultimately set our close date back a month. I spoke to family of the offender, and I honestly believe he got a bad break (serious baby momma drama - not to get all men's rights activist here, but it is truly unholy how much weight the word of a woman-scorned carries in our justice system, particular if the accused cant afford a decent attorney.) That being said, I can't blame a buyer for getting cold feet based on registry results.

After the sale, I looked at where in process I could have saved money. I came up with roughly $12k that could have been profit had I gone about things differently. We learned a lot, and now a long-standing eye sore is a cute house with a nice family living in it.

What made you interested in investing in this type of deal?

I was looking to supplement my W2 income and get my feet wet with real estate investment. I underestimated the depth of the water and its contents.

How did you find this deal and how did you negotiate it?

Wholesaling company that I had first spoken to a couple years prior and had been on their email list since. I paid them what the were asking.

How did you finance this deal?

Cash and loc's

How did you add value to the deal?

Full rehab. AC, electrical, kitchen, baths, roof, floors, paint, appliances, etc.

What was the outcome?

Break even, not including hundreds of hours of my time.

Lessons learned? Challenges?

Don't put the time-pressure of high interest credit on yourself when you have a lot to figure out. Prime example: I rushed into accepting the second GC bid I received. He seemed nice and honest enough but there were some serious conflicts between his expectations and mine that put us far over our time and money budgets. Had I a clearer idea of what I needed in a GC and taken a couple more weeks to settle on one, this process could have been much less painful and more lucrative.

Did you work with any real estate professionals (agents, lenders, etc.) that you'd recommend to others?

My wife! Dominique Sharp is a top notch agent and I can't wait to see her achieve massive success as she progresses through her career.

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Member since 2018 · 1 post · 14 votes
7y

This is why I like buy and hold for rental income.  After all that work you're missing out on the passive income. When I do a renovation, I do it right then hold it for passive income for the rest of my life. Luxury vinyl plank flooring and no carpeting work great for me and tenants love it.

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  • Investor · Pasadena, CA · Member since 2013 · 22 posts · 31 votes
    7y

    @Nathan Sharp the lessons learned can be just as valuable as profit. Use them in the next one and start driving that dough!

  • N Brunswick, NJ · Member since 2018 · 1 post · 1 vote
    7y

    Nice article. Thanks!

    We just cleaned up a property of brush and "danger trees". All went well until my husband and three grandsons developed a rash a few days later. Since it was late winter, the poison ivy (oak, sumac?) hadn't leafed out and we didn't recognize it. They are almost fully recovered but it was miserable.

    Warning!!

  • Buffalo, NY · Member since 2018 · 24 posts · 4 votes
    7y

    Great education actually doing is the best way to learn, what were some of the things you could have changed to get you that 12K in profit?

  • Property Manager · Saint Petersburg, FL · Member since 2016 · 182 posts · 51 votes
    7y

    @ Nathan Sharp, your retrospective assessment serves you well.

    Kudos to you and your agent/life partner- well done!

    You've earned your stripes on this one, which can be very beneficial if you ever choose to partner. Don't hesitate to brag :)

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2010 · 366 posts · 314 votes
    7y

    I will be heading into a rehab later this month., so great to see such a nice result. Was there anything about your interview GC that could have tipped you off that he wasn't the right match for you?

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Severn, MD · Member since 2018 · 4 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    Great post! Thanks for sharing, I look forward to hearing how you do on the next one. 

  • Member since 2018 · 4 posts · 11 votes
    7y

    In a flip the wholesaler or acquisition real estate agent and every contractor involved will educate the new flipper by taking the profit.   

    In this case the wholesaler, most likely, soaked much of the profit out of the deal or the contractors pushing for a full re-plumb and full-rewire, and new hvac extracted the profit from the flipper.  

    Every flip has multiple battles of confidence between the flipper and each of the subcontractors on pricing.  There is a battle at the beginning and all along the way.  The first bid is only the opening salvo. At any point during the job the contractor will take any new information uncovered and try and emotionally hit you to shake your confidence about what is entailed and how it justifies a more expensive change order.  The contractors are exactly that, "Contractors", they contract. The contractor is a highly evolved negotiator who will exploit any weakness in the adversary on the other side of their contract.     

    It is your job as a professional flipper to fully understand the nature of contracting and  know enough about the work being done and the nature of the business to keep your profit.   Even the savviest of flippers fat prey to the contractors manipulation from time to time.  

    The first defense is building a phone book of tradesmen and contractors.  call them and pick their brain until the tell you not too.   

    The second defense is putting in the time to get MULTIPLE bids on each job.  It is harder than you think- It's crucial.

    The third defense is to be a good customer -  list the details of the job, have the materials selected and purchased or be quick to answer questions.  Pay on time.   (The anticipation of a quick smooth project gives the contractor confidence in bidding thinner margins.)

    Research a lot 

    Learn from the school of hard knocks. 

    Profit

  • Rental Property Investor · Odessa, FL · Member since 2017 · 145 posts · 113 votes
    7y

    I'll start with my bottom line - at least you didn't pay a guru $50,000 to theoretically educate you. Instead, you just got hands on education right there. First deal and break even is not too great but your second deal will surely make money as you mentioned you already have in your book a few lessons that would have saved you about $12k (=profit).

    Congrats on your wife getting her license, wishing her good luck as a realtor.

  • Rental Property Investor · NH · Member since 2015 · 76 posts · 16 votes
    7y

    This post was awesome! thanks for sharing. Love to hear real life stories that arent so glamorous.

    Sounds like you learned alot from this flip & its a great reminder to me as Im sure lots of other folks on here that this can happen on any project. The market is changing a little right now whether its premature because of the FEDS & the yield curve... But Im being a bit more cautious on taking on big & long term projects, ones with slim margins and/or land subdivision, which can be a longer term project. 

  • Benson, NC · Member since 2019 · 4 posts · 3 votes
    7y

    Thanks for that insight.  We've been on the rental side, but since I retired from my day-job recently (after 35 years) ... we are considering using some flipping as a way to generate money for more rentals.  I do a little more myself and with my one contractor ... but have done work similar to what you described (I would never recommend it ... but I find myself doing it again anyway).  Stories such as yours are of great value to folks who have not done it soup to nuts.  Great that you were willing to share your education.   Hopefully folks will see it not as a "this is why you shouldn't do this" but rather as a "prepare yourself and don't believe it's as simple as they make it look on TV".  Having taken it soup to nuts is great experience for you (even it seemed more nuts than soup).

  • Member since 2019 · 1 post · 1 vote
    7y

    Thank you so much for sharing your story.

  • Rental Property Investor · Downers Grove · Member since 2019 · 6 posts · 4 votes
    7y

    Great post!  I'm sure it was brutal but you survived with a great life experience.  It takes a lot of courage to take the plunge and try, so don't lose sight of that.   Keep at it.

  • Real Estate Agent · Albany, NY · Member since 2018 · 80 posts · 24 votes
    7y

    @Nathan Sharp awesome post, as someone who is new to investing, this is a great post to show me some of the truth behind flipping. All though there IS money to be made it is not easy and the deal should be analyzed very carefully and the project managed (not saying you didn’t do that!).

    It’s also very inspiring that even though this project did go so sideways, you still managed to break even and gain priceless knowledge.

    Keep it up!

  • Member since 2019 · 1 post · 2 votes
    7y

    As others have said, thank you for telling the true story with such honesty and humbleness!  My husband and I are getting ready to jump into fix/flipping, but our end goal will be to then sell the property by creating notes (seller financing).  That way, we get monthly income without "tenants, termites or toilets" as the saying goes.  So your story was a good cautionary tale for me as we prepare to go into our next learning curve.  P.S.  I've met some investors who write a clause into their agreement with the GC that there will be a daily late charge if not completed by the agreed-to date (might be something to consider next time to help keep the GC focused on the desired completion date.)

  • Napa, CA · Member since 2017 · 57 posts · 27 votes
    7y

    Thanks for bringing up the contractor contract framework @Connie Burnett. If I had known to do that, it would have made a big difference in my Huntsville house's renovation timeframe. Since then, I discovered it's outlined in @David Greene Long Distance Real Estate Investing book. It's a carrot-stick approach of a bonus for finishing early, and a reduction for going over the agreed upon timeframe. For the record, it's a common way to structuring contractor contracts; and I learned that CalTrans, the CA gov organization in charge of highways etc, uses this type of structure. 

  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 16 posts · 50 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Viron Hale:

    Great education actually doing is the best way to learn, what were some of the things you could have changed to get you that 12K in profit?

     Most of my missed savings stem from how long the flip took. The flip most definitely could have been completed in 90 days or less instead of 7 months. This would have saved me on utility payments, insurance and most importantly interest payments. Were I to have waited another six months I would have had much more cash to fund the project with. As it were, I maxed out two lines of credit w/ around 10% rates and three credit cards w/ around 15% rates. I think I came up with roughly 7k I could have saved along these lines.

    The second biggest area I could have saved would be on contractor services. In addition to my GC I hired guys for AC, cabinets, and counter-tops, plus a few other miscellaneous services. Just from speaking to other professionals in the space since the project, I am confident I could have saved easily another four 4k here.

    Also, I could have picked better materials. Prime example, I picked an unfinished pine siding to replace the old cedar siding. THIS STUFF SUCKED UP THE PAINT! I could have spent about 25% more on siding to get pre-primed and used half as much exterior paint plus probably 30 fewer man hours! 

    Also, I learned you should always get the biggest roll off disposal container allowed. It would have been the same price as the smaller one I got and I would have saved 1-2 pickups @ $600 a pop. 

  • Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 16 posts · 50 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Deanna O.:

    I will be heading into a rehab later this month., so great to see such a nice result. Was there anything about your interview GC that could have tipped you off that he wasn't the right match for you?

    Mostly I should have asked better questions. I should have gotten a better idea of what his normal operational style is. One of the things that irritated me the most was that they were typically only on site around 7-7.5 hours a day, mon-fri, even when they were weeks behind schedule! As someone who saved up the money to do a flip, by working 20-40 hours of overtime a week throughout my 20's, I found this unacceptable. I know a 40 hour work week is industry standard for contractors, but the next one I hire will have to make me confident they are willing to do what it takes to meet deadlines.

    Some other things to lookout for: Advanced age (this guy was in his sixties) may equal experience - but lets face it - it also means less ambition and energy. Also the appearance of cataracts starting to form may be an hint that you'll be having to double check a lot of their work.

     I also would not hire a guy with a 10+ year old beat up truck. It hints at poor personal finance. Poor personal finance likely means they'll mismanage their business finance too. This guy guaranteed his crew of 2-3 of semi-skilled laborers around 20 bucks an hour, meaning he needed something like $1600 a week from me just to pay his crew. This became an issue as he fell behind on deadline and I let him know that I would need to slow down the payout of the $17500 we had agreed to. He could not miss out on a week of payment because he didn't have anything to pay his guys for that week otherwise. I WILL NOT agree to pay a GC on a weekly basis again. This arrangement gave him and his crew incentive to slow-screw me, whether they consciously chose to do so or not.  Instead I'll agree to pay draws at certain milestones towards completion. Although it may not sound like it, I don't harbor ill-will towards the man. That being said I am not optimistic about his future based on his business/money practices paired w/ his age.

    Lastly, I won't hire a GC who speaks who speaks english as a second language again. This resulted in way too much miscommunication.

  • Rental Property Investor · Concord, GA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    Although the flip project for you is a "rare" and special occasion needing a prompt completion, for the contractor it's the same thing they do year in and year out. Thus expecting someone to work "overtime" to accomplish your project is probably not realistic. This doesn't excuse their not keeping the timetable. Regarding the beat up truck, this wouldn't mean anything to me one way or the other. Regarding his age, while being older may slow someone down, it is typically counterbalanced by more experience. (just like on your next flip, you'll be older and also more experienced so it should go smoother).

    I fully agree on the esl language difficulties. Along that same line, there are significant cultural differences regarding "time" and its importance. Some of the "schedule" issues may have been related to that. Although contractors not meeting deadlines is an extremely common complaint,on a flip, this can eat your lunch but it is so common that it probably needs to be built into the analysis. ie, if you need to flip the property in 3 months, can you still do "ok" if it takes 6?

    I still think you did ok overall (considering what could have been...)

  • Miami, FL · Member since 2019 · 1 post · 0 votes
    7y

    Great job man, it looks great!

  • Investor · Member since 2022 · 14 posts · 6 votes
    4y

    Hey Nathan, are you still doing fix and flips? I am working on a product that helps analyze these opportunities and would love to ask you a couple questions about your experience thus far.

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