First Multifamily (Long Distance BRRRR Gone Sideways)

First Multifamily (Long Distance BRRRR Gone Sideways)

Park City, UT · Member since 2018 · 127 posts · 126 votes

Investment Info:

Small multi-family (2-4 units) buy & hold investment in Pittsburgh.

Purchase price: $91,200
Cash invested: $70,500

The nightmare scenario they warned me about on the BP forums!

I own four houses and decided to make the jump to my first multi-family with a small up-down duplex in the Pittsburgh ‘burbs. It was a long-distance BRRRR deal, my first deal in the pandemic world. I'd spent months trying to find something and even backed out of one deal, losing my $3k EMD, before finding this one. This was late 2020, and the market was HOT.

This duplex was a bank foreclosure, listed at $96,200, I haggled them down to $91,200. The closing process was a two-month nightmare, and my realtor ended up breaking up with me (ok, she moved on to bigger and better things). My contractor estimated $35k (I guess he never checked the basement), and I was hoping for $165k for the appraisal. I figured I'd sink at least $40k in and leave a bit of cash in the deal - little did I know how this deal would screw me.

During close the bank had told us they would not turn the utilities on. “Could not” would have been more accurate, since every utility was broken! The house had been vacant for at least two years, so the electric panel was rusted through, the gas lines had been disconnected and the water pipes had frozen and burst. I ended up working with seven different contractors - and spending countless hours on the phone trying to corral contractors into doing work for me. I ended up putting LVP over the beautiful hardwood floors because so many hardwood floor refinishers bailed on me. Contractors are not struggling for work right now, and I need to get better at convincing them to work with me. It took five months from close to getting the first unit rented.

I sunk $162k into this project, and had an appraisal of $172k - meaning I left $40k in the deal and lost my f---ing shirt.

Real estate investors are an annoyingly optimistic bunch, so I’ll try to put positive spin on this; Rent is $1795 total, so the cash flow should be decent. If I sold the duplex now I think I’d get at least $180k, so I’d break even (after fees). It’s basically the same as if I had put a 20% down payment and bought the duplex turnkey.

But, if you factor in the blood, sweat and tears I put into this place, was it still worth it? Probably not – but I’ll keep my chin up, learn the lessons, and do better next time.

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Specialist · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 81 posts · 88 votes
5y

Sounds all too familiar, but glad to hear we aren't alone!

We bought a 4plex (also our first) in UT that turned out to not be the "up and coming" neighborhood we thought, and soon after moving in learned that it was the town drug house and brothel! 

Took us buying the one next door that shared the driveway and another full rehab to clean up the neighbrhood (both full of squatters and both with all utilities also broken/burst), spent several times over our budget and then made far less than planned on rents. 

We eventually just sold it to break even after several years and try not to think about the blood, sweat and tears aspect.
We feel your pain, but the lessons will stick with you! ;)
Better luck on the next one!!

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Flipper/Rehabber · Hattiesburg, MS · Member since 2020 · 59 posts · 25 votes
    5y

    It’s 100% worth the money for an inspection for me. I’m very capable and take on most of the work myself, but starting out I just didn’t know what I didn’t know. My inspector even gave me great contacts for licensed contractors in the area for items I needed to farm out.

  • San Antonio, TX · Member since 2019 · 930 posts · 836 votes
    5y

    @Stefan D.

    From the looks of it, things went sideways, but I wouldn’t say you lost your shirt having to keep 25% in a cash flowing deal. You just ended up with having to pay retail.

    Not a home run, not even a single, but even Babe Ruth hit an occasional sac fly.

  • Investor · Member since 2021 · 45 posts · 11 votes
    5y

    Thanks for sharing your stories and it kind of resonate some of my experiences but more so being screwed over by my RE Lawyer and RE Agent's lack of patience (we spent close to 1.5months finding houses and got annoyed when i want to negotiate more).

    Are you planning to hold it or sell it now?

  • Rental Property Investor · Greenville SC / Atlanta GA · Member since 2018 · 22 posts · 20 votes
    5y

    @Stefan D. Thanks for sharing your story. I can relate, since it sounds like a couple of the ground-up rehabs I got into while living out of country. Always painful and it can be very emotional, but it’s the best way to learn. Take some time to write those lessons down on paper while they’re fresh in your head so that you can apply them and adjust for the next deal.

    As to your question of sell now for breakeven or hold and rent, I would put your final rehab numbers and rent estimates into the BP BRRRR calculator and see what your 10-yr ROI will be. If it cash flows and you can manage the rental without a full-time property manager (another consideration when OOS) then best to hold it and let the rental income recoup some of your costs over time. Add depreciation and other tax benefits and could be a long-term "win" even if it feels like a "loss" today.

    Selling it outright will be taxed as “active income” and treated like a flip. Any gain would add to your W-2 income (I assume you have a full-time job), but any loss would also deduct from that. So “flipping a loss” can at least save on taxes (if you’re looking for an upside spin on this). You should also consider what else you would do with that money back in your pocket. If the 10-yr return on another deal (using the same money invested) is better than the 10-yr return of the rental option, then you might be better off selling and starting fresh.

    Best of luck and keep at it!

  • Park City, UT · Member since 2018 · 127 posts · 126 votes
    5y

    @Forrest Hayashi, @Greg Houts

    I do plan on keeping it, although Greg, you are right that I should at some point calculate if the money could be better used on a different investment.  I also like your suggestion to write down these lessons.  I made some checklists for myself for different stages of the deal, and I'll go through and update those to make sure I include any mistakes from this deal.

  • Rental Property Investor · Savannah, GA · Member since 2014 · 298 posts · 67 votes
    5y

    I love rehabs from afar - challenging, for sure, but always interesting to get to know new areas and people.  Great hustle!

  • New to Real Estate · Hilton Head Island, SC · Member since 2018 · 13 posts · 4 votes
    5y

    @Stefan D.

    Sounds like you already have your chin up. Could’ve been way sh**ier but you know what you have now vs. had you bought a turn key 20% down? A bunch of knowledge, perseverance, grit, experience, and possibly more connections in your pocket for later. Never forget that!

    Keep rocking.

  • Rental Property Investor · OK · Member since 2015 · 316 posts · 216 votes
    5y

    @Stefan D.

    Thanks for sharing and a great point about the (often unwarranted) optimism on this side of the industry. Too much hype generated by those who have things to sell to the newcomers.

    OOS investing has a lot of moving parts and should only be done with a well vetted team.

  • Rental Property Investor · Wake Forest, NC · Member since 2017 · 128 posts · 131 votes
    5y

    So glad that @Mike Dymski said that "breakeven is nowhere near the nightmare scenario", because that is a FACT every day of the week. BRRRRs are not a "flip" where you need to make your money on day one. I always say, everyone is looking for a "home run" or a "grand slam" with every deal, but a break even on day one, lessons and xp learned, new relationships formed, those things make this a solid double. You get enough of those and you're still driving in runs. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    Thanks so much for sharing a lot of people need to reality of long distance BRRRs especially those on low priced properties where higher price rehab then expect can put you in red. Just chalk it up as a learning experience and over time the small loss will be made up quickly. 

  • Mike D'ArrigoPro Member
    Turn key provider · San Jose, CA · Member since 2010 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    5y

    @Stefan D. I'm sorry for your nightmare but it is a perfect example of why it is risky and difficult to do a BRRRR from out of state. Too many things can go wrong a long the way. Maybe your experience can be a good learning experience for others.

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 4 votes
    5y

    You spent $40,000 but learned some priceless lessons on doing your due diligence and working with contractors. The money you spent, though painful, is better off in a property then in a bank still waiting to jump in. Eventually rents will raise, debt owed will lower and value will rise and your 40,000 will still be there ready to be pulled out for another deal. Thanks for sharing and best of luck.

  • Investor · Santa Barbara, CA · Member since 2016 · 75 posts · 35 votes
    5y

    @Stefan D. Brave soul! We are looking at Pittsburgh and other area markets as well. Not the most expensive education ever, all things considered!

  • Park City, UT · Member since 2018 · 127 posts · 126 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Mike D'Arrigo:

    @Stefan D. I'm sorry for your nightmare but it is a perfect example of why it is risky and difficult to do a BRRRR from out of state. Too many things can go wrong a long the way. Maybe your experience can be a good learning experience for others.

    Thanks Mike. I hope others can learn from it as well. It is risky, and difficult, but I still think it's still a winning strategy. I had 2 long distance BRRRR's before this go well on SFR's (totally recouped my investment on both), so 2 out of 3 isn't awful - especially if I try to learn from my mistakes and get better over time.

  • Mike D'ArrigoPro Member
    Turn key provider · San Jose, CA · Member since 2010 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    5y

    @Stefan D.Congratulations on your 2 successes! Hopefully they offset the bad one.

  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Stefan D.:
    Originally posted by @Mike D'Arrigo:

    @Stefan D. I'm sorry for your nightmare but it is a perfect example of why it is risky and difficult to do a BRRRR from out of state. Too many things can go wrong a long the way. Maybe your experience can be a good learning experience for others.

    Thanks Mike. I hope others can learn from it as well. It is risky, and difficult, but I still think it's still a winning strategy. I had 2 long distance BRRRR's before this go well on SFR's (totally recouped my investment on both), so 2 out of 3 isn't awful - especially if I try to learn from my mistakes and get better over time.

    Stefan, what's important is that you showed up, you asked honest questions here, you pulled the trigger, you had problems, and you SHOWED UP AGAIN and were dead honest about them, too.

    What we get in the forums (and now the FB groups) all too often is a bunch of ra-ra-ra and success-success-success, and the constant, tiresome implication that everyone who isn't bragging about winning all the time shouldn't be here. Some of these stories are just flat-out crazy. We KNOW they're not possible. But the experienced users here let them brag because we really don't care about these flashes in the pan. No one who has been in the game for longer than two deals believes real estate can reliably do miracles all the time.

    We need more people like you here, Stefan. We need honest, reliable contributors who tell it like it is. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Hawaii Florida, etc. · Member since 2020 · 19 posts · 17 votes
    5y

    I get so tired of hearing wild success stories, this was really refreshing!  If you don't swing the bat, you'll never hit the ball; the story of my life.  Keep swinging!  

  • Real Estate Agent · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2019 · 158 posts · 140 votes
    5y

    @Stefan D.

    Dude there is so many things wrong with what you did I don’t even know where to begin. But in the plus side you learned in one deal what some investors don’t learn after years. I own a GC company and I invest. I am now investing in two markets 2,000 miles from each other. I’m going to list all the things you could have done to prevent this deal going the way it did and I’m sure you already know most of them but anyone reading can learn prior to making these mistakes…

    -Hope for the Best Buy prepare for the worst!! No bank is ever going to turn on utilities for you. Banks want to take the liability off of themselves. So if they try to turn on utilities and somethings broken now it’s disclosed and they had to either fix it or let the next buyer know that is broken. So lesson learned always have an experienced contractor or home inspector walk the properties and inspect the utilities for what’s visible. Huge red flag to me was the fact that the property was vacant for a couple years mandatory you’re going to need gas company to come out to pressure test your pipe along wirh Pittsburg winters I could have told you there was going to be issues.

    -since I live far away I will always have a home inspector whom I trust and have a relationship with wall all my deals. This will give me a report hwing what is wrong with the property which I can hand to my contractors snd have them

    Fix it. I also get architect drAwings so that way plans are on site so everyone knows what’s going on. These little things really help out especially with long distance Investing.

    I hope that upu learned from this experience and are happy that you didn’t lose your ***. I’ve lost money on several renovation projects for other people which taught me the best way to move forward. Although I didn’t like it I think it was needed for me to get where I am. Now I can scale much quicker knowing exactly what is needed.

    The page froze snd wouldn’t let me scroll to the bottom so this is suppose to be higher up. I hope you keep investing man cuz that deal, although money was left in it; actually isn’t bad. I’d you need money know just sell it take the loss. If not then just ride out the cash flow snd move on to another deal. Thanks for sharing your negative experience I love hearing this stuff because this is where I learned from my

    Mistakes!!!

    -Always get multiple contractor bids especially for long distance. You not only need multiple bids but you also need someone to check on them regularly. ThT one contractor does $35k obviously wasn’t equipped for the job. And as for speaking with contractors, it may benefit you to hire someone who is more expensive but well qualified because it’s less headache in the long run. Trust me I spent a long time using the cheapest guys to “save money” and just clean up there mess behind them but it’s not worth it. It’s much better to pay well and have the relief that’s it’s done correc

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    5y

    Thank you for sharimg such a real experience, Stefan.

    I bought once with the water not connected also.  Once.

    I'll never buy again without all utilities functioning and tested first. 

  • New to Real Estate · Joliet, IL · Member since 2021 · 89 posts · 135 votes
    5y

    @Stefan D. You win some, and others you don’t meet your goal. You deserve a Pat on the back. Some of us have yet to land anything, so you are still ahead. The goal is to keep pushing. All the “horror” stories are more inspiration than anything. Knowing it could happen and still having the courage to do it, makes you a winner.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:

    Thank you for sharimg such a real experience, Stefan.

    I bought once with the water not connected also.  Once.

    I'll never buy again without all utilities functioning and tested first. 

    I have a bought a few over the years where the next week we come back and all there is  is an empty lot and a demo lien on it for 10k. :)

  • Real Estate Coach · Member since 2018 · 245 posts · 216 votes
    5y

    @Stefan D.

    Pro tip- You don't necessarily need the electrical on at the pole to figure out if it works or not. You need a better home inspector. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 846 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Jim K.:
    Originally posted by @Stefan D.:
    Originally posted by @Mike D'Arrigo:

    @Stefan D. I'm sorry for your nightmare but it is a perfect example of why it is risky and difficult to do a BRRRR from out of state. Too many things can go wrong a long the way. Maybe your experience can be a good learning experience for others.

    Thanks Mike. I hope others can learn from it as well. It is risky, and difficult, but I still think it's still a winning strategy. I had 2 long distance BRRRR's before this go well on SFR's (totally recouped my investment on both), so 2 out of 3 isn't awful - especially if I try to learn from my mistakes and get better over time.

    Stefan, what's important is that you showed up, you asked honest questions here, you pulled the trigger, you had problems, and you SHOWED UP AGAIN and were dead honest about them, too.

    What we get in the forums (and now the FB groups) all too often is a bunch of ra-ra-ra and success-success-success, and the constant, tiresome implication that everyone who isn't bragging about winning all the time shouldn't be here. Some of these stories are just flat-out crazy. We KNOW they're not possible. But the experienced users here let them brag because we really don't care about these flashes in the pan. No one who has been in the game for longer than two deals believes real estate can reliably do miracles all the time.

    We need more people like you here, Stefan. We need honest, reliable contributors who tell it like it is. 

     Hit the nail on the head Jim. I tell my clients often to temper expectations when reading stories online because people don't brag about the average and bad deals they've done. They only talk about the home runs. Which leads newbies to unrealistic expectations of what real estate investing is in Pittsburgh (and any city for that matter). 

    It's hard work and stressful at times. You get used to it, but it takes time to get it right. 

    The person who is willing to take action will get further as the person that buys good and average deals and yes, occasionally strikes out too, than the person always looking for a home run deal only. 

    10 years from today I'd rather have purchased 10 average deals than only 1 home run. And if you aren't willing to make moves then you'll just always be searching. More posts like this will help people realize that home run deals are not the norm, they are the exception. And the only way you find them is by being active in the market. So kudos to OP for getting started, learning a lot, and then having the guts to be open about their difficulties as much as their successes (I refuse to call them "failures" as long as you learned something). 

    This business is a contact sport. Keep doing deals and learning from them and it will work long term. 

    To be honest I used to be way more active on BP than I am now for that very reason. It's becoming a lot more sizzle and a lot less steak. 

  • Park City, UT · Member since 2018 · 127 posts · 126 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Justin Sullivan:

    @Stefan D.

    Dude there is so many things wrong with what you did I don’t even know where to begin. But in the plus side you learned in one deal what some investors don’t learn after years. I own a GC company and I invest. I am now investing in two markets 2,000 miles from each other. I’m going to list all the things you could have done to prevent this deal going the way it did and I’m sure you already know most of them but anyone reading can learn prior to making these mistakes…

    -Hope for the Best Buy prepare for the worst!! No bank is ever going to turn on utilities for you. Banks want to take the liability off of themselves. So if they try to turn on utilities and somethings broken now it’s disclosed and they had to either fix it or let the next buyer know that is broken. So lesson learned always have an experienced contractor or home inspector walk the properties and inspect the utilities for what’s visible. Huge red flag to me was the fact that the property was vacant for a couple years mandatory you’re going to need gas company to come out to pressure test your pipe along wirh Pittsburg winters I could have told you there was going to be issues.

    -since I live far away I will always have a home inspector whom I trust and have a relationship with wall all my deals. This will give me a report hwing what is wrong with the property which I can hand to my contractors snd have them

    Fix it. I also get architect drAwings so that way plans are on site so everyone knows what’s going on. These little things really help out especially with long distance Investing.

    I hope that upu learned from this experience and are happy that you didn’t lose your ***. I’ve lost money on several renovation projects for other people which taught me the best way to move forward. Although I didn’t like it I think it was needed for me to get where I am. Now I can scale much quicker knowing exactly what is needed.

    The page froze snd wouldn’t let me scroll to the bottom so this is suppose to be higher up. I hope you keep investing man cuz that deal, although money was left in it; actually isn’t bad. I’d you need money know just sell it take the loss. If not then just ride out the cash flow snd move on to another deal. Thanks for sharing your negative experience I love hearing this stuff because this is where I learned from my

    Mistakes!!!

    -Always get multiple contractor bids especially for long distance. You not only need multiple bids but you also need someone to check on them regularly. ThT one contractor does $35k obviously wasn’t equipped for the job. And as for speaking with contractors, it may benefit you to hire someone who is more expensive but well qualified because it’s less headache in the long run. Trust me I spent a long time using the cheapest guys to “save money” and just clean up there mess behind them but it’s not worth it. It’s much better to pay well and have the relief that’s it’s done correc

     Hey Justin,

    I used to go for 3 bids, but I've slipped from that. I've used my main contractor for a few jobs now, so I figured I'd hang on to him.  Plus, for some things I had trouble even getting a single contractor out there, maybe because the market is so hot right now.  For example, fixing two downspouts was a $250 job, that nobody wanted because it was too small.  

    I'm glad you were able to scale after similar mistakes.  Thanks for sharing!  I'll do some more thinking about what I can do to keep everyone on the same page (like architectural drawings)

  • Real Estate Agent · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2019 · 158 posts · 140 votes
    5y

    @Stefan D.

    SO you need to call the right people for the right job. You don't call a licensed contractor to replace two downspouts. You call a handyman for that. That is another thing yes the market is busy but if you have work and its schedule properly you should still be able to get guys on your job site. Maybe your job was taking up too much of time needed to focus on this project hence needing someone else to manage the project. 


    Keep things like that in mind moving forward and I wish you the best!!

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