First Multifamily (Long Distance BRRRR Gone Sideways)

First Multifamily (Long Distance BRRRR Gone Sideways)

Park City, UT · Member since 2018 · 127 posts · 126 votes

Investment Info:

Small multi-family (2-4 units) buy & hold investment in Pittsburgh.

Purchase price: $91,200
Cash invested: $70,500

The nightmare scenario they warned me about on the BP forums!

I own four houses and decided to make the jump to my first multi-family with a small up-down duplex in the Pittsburgh ‘burbs. It was a long-distance BRRRR deal, my first deal in the pandemic world. I'd spent months trying to find something and even backed out of one deal, losing my $3k EMD, before finding this one. This was late 2020, and the market was HOT.

This duplex was a bank foreclosure, listed at $96,200, I haggled them down to $91,200. The closing process was a two-month nightmare, and my realtor ended up breaking up with me (ok, she moved on to bigger and better things). My contractor estimated $35k (I guess he never checked the basement), and I was hoping for $165k for the appraisal. I figured I'd sink at least $40k in and leave a bit of cash in the deal - little did I know how this deal would screw me.

During close the bank had told us they would not turn the utilities on. “Could not” would have been more accurate, since every utility was broken! The house had been vacant for at least two years, so the electric panel was rusted through, the gas lines had been disconnected and the water pipes had frozen and burst. I ended up working with seven different contractors - and spending countless hours on the phone trying to corral contractors into doing work for me. I ended up putting LVP over the beautiful hardwood floors because so many hardwood floor refinishers bailed on me. Contractors are not struggling for work right now, and I need to get better at convincing them to work with me. It took five months from close to getting the first unit rented.

I sunk $162k into this project, and had an appraisal of $172k - meaning I left $40k in the deal and lost my f---ing shirt.

Real estate investors are an annoyingly optimistic bunch, so I’ll try to put positive spin on this; Rent is $1795 total, so the cash flow should be decent. If I sold the duplex now I think I’d get at least $180k, so I’d break even (after fees). It’s basically the same as if I had put a 20% down payment and bought the duplex turnkey.

But, if you factor in the blood, sweat and tears I put into this place, was it still worth it? Probably not – but I’ll keep my chin up, learn the lessons, and do better next time.

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Specialist · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 81 posts · 88 votes
5y

Sounds all too familiar, but glad to hear we aren't alone!

We bought a 4plex (also our first) in UT that turned out to not be the "up and coming" neighborhood we thought, and soon after moving in learned that it was the town drug house and brothel! 

Took us buying the one next door that shared the driveway and another full rehab to clean up the neighbrhood (both full of squatters and both with all utilities also broken/burst), spent several times over our budget and then made far less than planned on rents. 

We eventually just sold it to break even after several years and try not to think about the blood, sweat and tears aspect.
We feel your pain, but the lessons will stick with you! ;)
Better luck on the next one!!

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  • Rental Property Investor · RVA · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    5y

    Thank you for being open an honest about your experience! Why did you pick Pittsburgh? In hindsight, what could you do differently next time that would help you more accurately estimate the repair costs?

  • Specialist · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 81 posts · 88 votes
    5y

    Sounds all too familiar, but glad to hear we aren't alone!

    We bought a 4plex (also our first) in UT that turned out to not be the "up and coming" neighborhood we thought, and soon after moving in learned that it was the town drug house and brothel! 

    Took us buying the one next door that shared the driveway and another full rehab to clean up the neighbrhood (both full of squatters and both with all utilities also broken/burst), spent several times over our budget and then made far less than planned on rents. 

    We eventually just sold it to break even after several years and try not to think about the blood, sweat and tears aspect.
    We feel your pain, but the lessons will stick with you! ;)
    Better luck on the next one!!

  • Rental Property Investor · VA · Member since 2021 · 23 posts · 10 votes
    5y

    Rehab is not easy and let along long distance BRRRR and in the current environment. How did you find your realtor, contractors? did you have a property management company line up for you to check out the rehab? I guess the good thing is that you got the property at a deep discount and you can still be able to make it work even the rebab goes sideways. Have you read David Green's BRRRR book? He outlined a good process on long-distance BRRRR and how he finds his CORE FOUR. It might offer some insights on your next project! good luck.

  • Rental Property Investor · Member since 2020 · 83 posts · 65 votes
    5y

    @Stefan D., brave move and thank you for sharing! OOS BRRRR sounds great in theory just like many things do where the reality is less so. I think it's fair to say there is a bit of a learning curve. You many not have successfully yanked your cash out yet, but maybe you do have a prop in great shape that you can trust won't need heavy cap improvement and maintenance for years to come. Best part is you got schooled on BRRRR and will be better off next time. Trial by fire; good work.

  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Stefan D.:

    Investment Info:

    Small multi-family (2-4 units) buy & hold investment in Pittsburgh.

    Purchase price: $91,200
    Cash invested: $70,500

    The nightmare scenario they warned me about on the BP forums!

    I own four houses and decided to make the jump to my first multi-family with a small up-down duplex in the Pittsburgh ‘burbs. It was a long-distance BRRRR deal, my first deal in the pandemic world. I'd spent months trying to find something and even backed out of one deal, losing my $3k EMD, before finding this one. This was late 2020, and the market was HOT.

    This duplex was a bank foreclosure, listed at $96,200, I haggled them down to $91,200. The closing process was a two-month nightmare, and my realtor ended up breaking up with me (ok, she moved on to bigger and better things). My contractor estimated $35k (I guess he never checked the basement), and I was hoping for $165k for the appraisal. I figured I'd sink at least $40k in and leave a bit of cash in the deal - little did I know how this deal would screw me.

    During close the bank had told us they would not turn the utilities on. “Could not” would have been more accurate, since every utility was broken! The house had been vacant for at least two years, so the electric panel was rusted through, the gas lines had been disconnected and the water pipes had frozen and burst. I ended up working with seven different contractors - and spending countless hours on the phone trying to corral contractors into doing work for me. I ended up putting LVP over the beautiful hardwood floors because so many hardwood floor refinishers bailed on me. Contractors are not struggling for work right now, and I need to get better at convincing them to work with me. It took five months from close to getting the first unit rented.

    I sunk $162k into this project, and had an appraisal of $172k - meaning I left $40k in the deal and lost my f---ing shirt.

    Real estate investors are an annoyingly optimistic bunch, so I’ll try to put positive spin on this; Rent is $1795 total, so the cash flow should be decent. If I sold the duplex now I think I’d get at least $180k, so I’d break even (after fees). It’s basically the same as if I had put a 20% down payment and bought the duplex turnkey.

    But, if you factor in the blood, sweat and tears I put into this place, was it still worth it? Probably not – but I’ll keep my chin up, learn the lessons, and do better next time.

    Stefan, I'm sorry this happened to you. This can be an unbelievably rough town for long-distance investing. But there is a bright side. The value of the learning experience you've gone through, the pain of learning what you now know, all of this can be leveraged. I'd like to work with you.

  • Park City, UT · Member since 2018 · 127 posts · 126 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Taylor L.:

    Thank you for being open an honest about your experience! Why did you pick Pittsburgh? In hindsight, what could you do differently next time that would help you more accurately estimate the repair costs?

    Hey Taylor,

    I lived in Pittsburgh for 12 years, the numbers there make sense, and I wanted an excuse to go back and visit.

    As for estimating repair costs: I don't have the answer yet, but hopefully some people replying to this post will give me some ideas.  I've added more possible items to my contractor's checklist - but what I'm considering is whether it's actually worth paying a professional $500 to check the property.  In this case, it would have been worth it.  What do you do?

  • Park City, UT · Member since 2018 · 127 posts · 126 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Bryan Danger:

    Sounds all too familiar, but glad to hear we aren't alone!

    We bought a 4plex (also our first) in UT that turned out to not be the "up and coming" neighborhood we thought, and soon after moving in learned that it was the town drug house and brothel! 

    Took us buying the one next door that shared the driveway and another full rehab to clean up the neighbrhood (both full of squatters and both with all utilities also broken/burst), spent several times over our budget and then made far less than planned on rents. 

    We eventually just sold it to break even after several years and try not to think about the blood, sweat and tears aspect.
    We feel your pain, but the lessons will stick with you! ;)
    Better luck on the next one!!

     Oh man, that is rough!! Thanks for making me feel better - at least I've got renters and my troubles are over now (knock on wood).  Looks like you've had plenty of deals after that to make up for it.  It's all a learning process.

  • Park City, UT · Member since 2018 · 127 posts · 126 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Jc M.:

    @Stefan D., brave move and thank you for sharing! OOS BRRRR sounds great in theory just like many things do where the reality is less so. I think it's fair to say there is a bit of a learning curve. You many not have successfully yanked your cash out yet, but maybe you do have a prop in great shape that you can trust won't need heavy cap improvement and maintenance for years to come. Best part is you got schooled on BRRRR and will be better off next time. Trial by fire; good work.

    Thanks Joseph. The school of BRRRR is cheaper than college, so I hope I've learned enough to do better next time.

  • Park City, UT · Member since 2018 · 127 posts · 126 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Le Jia:

    Rehab is not easy and let along long distance BRRRR and in the current environment. How did you find your realtor, contractors? did you have a property management company line up for you to check out the rehab? I guess the good thing is that you got the property at a deep discount and you can still be able to make it work even the rebab goes sideways. Have you read David Green's BRRRR book? He outlined a good process on long-distance BRRRR and how he finds his CORE FOUR. It might offer some insights on your next project! good luck.

     Hey Le,

    I have read that back, although I could probably benefit from re-reading it. This was actually my 3rd long distance BRRRR so I already had a team. The mistake here was that I rushed, with the market being so hot I'd already sent my contractor and realtor to dozens of properties. I have a made contractor who does cosmetic stuff for interiors, but to find the roofer, electrician, plumber etc I searched everywhere: personal recommendations, thumbtack, craigslist, google, the county's list of licensed contractors.

  • Mike TerryPro Member
    Investor · Fort Myers, FL · Member since 2015 · 292 posts · 278 votes
    5y

    If it cash flows keep it.  It didn't go as planned, but you own a duplex, have a ton of experience in long distance investing and learned valuable lessons you won't repeat.  Keep at it.  Right now my deals keep getting better due to experience, reputation, relationships and bumps and bruises. Yours will too.

    Mike

  • Rental Property Investor · RVA · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Stefan D.:
    Originally posted by @Taylor L.:

    Thank you for being open an honest about your experience! Why did you pick Pittsburgh? In hindsight, what could you do differently next time that would help you more accurately estimate the repair costs?

    Hey Taylor,

    I lived in Pittsburgh for 12 years, the numbers there make sense, and I wanted an excuse to go back and visit.

    As for estimating repair costs: I don't have the answer yet, but hopefully some people replying to this post will give me some ideas.  I've added more possible items to my contractor's checklist - but what I'm considering is whether it's actually worth paying a professional $500 to check the property.  In this case, it would have been worth it.  What do you do?

    Our properties are much larger and we bring in outside investors, so we need to invest a lot of time and energy in physical dd. Typically walking every unit with a GC, scoping plumbing lines, documenting ages of major items like roofs, etc. It's definitely tough on the smaller properties where there are fewer economies of scale. 

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    5y

    Breakeven is nowhere near the nightmare scenario.  You just got a (free) crash course in out of state rehab and that knowledge is valuable.  Keep taking action, learn, and pivot as you go.  Nice work.

  • Rental Property Investor · Boise/Portland · Member since 2017 · 709 posts · 742 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Bryan Danger:

    Sounds all too familiar, but glad to hear we aren't alone!

    We bought a 4plex (also our first) in UT that turned out to not be the "up and coming" neighborhood we thought, and soon after moving in learned that it was the town drug house and brothel! 

     Curious... how did you not know or realize this before you bought? 

  • Philip JosephPro Member
    Investor · Warner Robins, GA · Member since 2021 · 96 posts · 50 votes
    5y

    I’m taking another BiggerPockets member advice and always tag teaming with a local for my first purchase in any new area. That way I will get connected with local contractors and another investor who will more than likely help me later if I need help.

    And yes, paying for a home inspection is always worth the up front cost.

    Cajun

  • Lender · Pasco, WA · Member since 2020 · 84 posts · 50 votes
    5y

    Don't hear enough of these kind of posts, thank you for a little grounding!

  • Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2017 · 40 posts · 23 votes
    5y

    @Stefan D. Sounds like a tough but valuable education! Sorry for the rough patch, but it sounds like you have a great, nearly new property that is cash flowing, is appreciating in a hot market, is able to be depreciated, and is allowing you to rebuild your cash reserves. It definitely sounds like a lot of blood sweat and tears, but I guess that is why they call it work:) 

    Thanks for sharing the pain, it helps all of us to remember to always focus on the basics of making sure our numbers are solid based on real estimates, perform good inspections, and not to get pulled into a hot market buying frenzy, which is so tempting for me personally. Thanks again for sharing and looking forward to the next deal you do - it will probably be a GRAND SLAM!! 

  • Brandon SturgillBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Columbus, OH · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    @Stefan D. thanks for sharing...this story really has nothing to do with your influence and attempt to control the uncontrollable. This is a massive failure on your agents part...s*^t happens, yes, but the process from inception should have been controlled by your agent. This business is full of residential agents doing one-off deals with investors, and this is what happens.

    Spend more time vetting your agent and this scenario will never happen again. Avoid the big brokerages at every cost and ask some tough questions of your next prospective agent...this should be a long-term partnership and your agent should make your life much easier as you grow your portfolio from OOS.

    Best of luck going forward.

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  • Specialist · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 81 posts · 88 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Matthew McNeil:
    Originally posted by @Bryan Danger:

    Sounds all too familiar, but glad to hear we aren't alone!

    We bought a 4plex (also our first) in UT that turned out to not be the "up and coming" neighborhood we thought, and soon after moving in learned that it was the town drug house and brothel! 

     Curious... how did you not know or realize this before you bought? 

    Still not exactly sure.  We took a weekend to tour properties with our realtor.  Place was empty, so not sure if they kicked everyone out or into the unit next door for a couple day...  

    It needed a lot of work but we weren’t afraid of that... but several weeks later when the deal was done, we loaded our belongings into a trailer and drove to UT to move in we arrived in the middle of the night to several people living/squatting.

    We kicked them out easy enough... but realizing the bigger problem habit was something else.  Tools us a few months to realize that we were apparently about 1:23 from the state pen and that apparently you get released at midnight, because a few nights a week we’d get a knock on the door at the same time from someone newly released looking for their first hookup. Both inconvenient and terrifying!

    We had also invested in a commercial property downtown that had an old house on it... (thought we could turn it into a quaint bar) but a year in the city sent a letter mandating it be torn down.  No conversation, no options, another investment down the tubes.

    To say we are no longer looking for out of state investments would be an understatement.



  • Rental Property Investor · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2021 · 23 posts · 8 votes
    5y

    @Stefan D. In our area is a unwritten rule to get an inspector into your property. I actually joined him and just observed what he was doing.

    This is super super helpful down the road. A you can see WHAT he is checking, B you can see how and C it's so valuable if you need to do some fixing on your own down the road. You have a bit of a glims where to look for and how to get started.

    Usually they are also super helpful with questions you have after they left.

    Yes it comes for a price.

    BUT that said, they can't see behind walls either.

  • Drew SygitBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    5y

    Trial by fire is the most painful learning experience, but is remembered the longest!

  • Park City, UT · Member since 2018 · 127 posts · 126 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Brandon Sturgill:

    @Stefan D. thanks for sharing...this story really has nothing to do with your influence and attempt to control the uncontrollable. This is a massive failure on your agents part...s*^t happens, yes, but the process from inception should have been controlled by your agent. This business is full of residential agents doing one-off deals with investors, and this is what happens.

    Spend more time vetting your agent and this scenario will never happen again. Avoid the big brokerages at every cost and ask some tough questions of your next prospective agent...this should be a long-term partnership and your agent should make your life much easier as you grow your portfolio from OOS.

    Best of luck going forward.

    Thanks Brandon.  Yes, I think some of this was my agent's fault.  She'd been great on past deals but there were some red flags that she wasn't dotting her i's and crossing her t's on this deal (like spelling my name wrong, etc).  Luckily, I've got a new one now who I'm very excited to work with.  I think there's some shared responsibility with my contractor, and also myself - since I  could've vetted this more instead of getting caught up in the buying frenzy.

  • Park City, UT · Member since 2018 · 127 posts · 126 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Pat Leri:

    @Stefan D. In our area is a unwritten rule to get an inspector into your property. I actually joined him and just observed what he was doing.

    This is super super helpful down the road. A you can see WHAT he is checking, B you can see how and C it's so valuable if you need to do some fixing on your own down the road. You have a bit of a glims where to look for and how to get started.

    Usually they are also super helpful with questions you have after they left.

    Yes it comes for a price.

    BUT that said, they can't see behind walls either.

     Thanks for the advice Pat.  I am long distance, but it probably would be worth it to fly out to walk through with an inspector next time for the learning experience.

  • Park City, UT · Member since 2018 · 127 posts · 126 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Bryan Danger:
    Originally posted by @Matthew McNeil:
    Originally posted by @Bryan Danger:

    Sounds all too familiar, but glad to hear we aren't alone!

    We bought a 4plex (also our first) in UT that turned out to not be the "up and coming" neighborhood we thought, and soon after moving in learned that it was the town drug house and brothel! 

     Curious... how did you not know or realize this before you bought? 

    Still not exactly sure.  We took a weekend to tour properties with our realtor.  Place was empty, so not sure if they kicked everyone out or into the unit next door for a couple day...  

    It needed a lot of work but we weren’t afraid of that... but several weeks later when the deal was done, we loaded our belongings into a trailer and drove to UT to move in we arrived in the middle of the night to several people living/squatting.

    We kicked them out easy enough... but realizing the bigger problem habit was something else.  Tools us a few months to realize that we were apparently about 1:23 from the state pen and that apparently you get released at midnight, because a few nights a week we’d get a knock on the door at the same time from someone newly released looking for their first hookup. Both inconvenient and terrifying!

    We had also invested in a commercial property downtown that had an old house on it... (thought we could turn it into a quaint bar) but a year in the city sent a letter mandating it be torn down.  No conversation, no options, another investment down the tubes.

    To say we are no longer looking for out of state investments would be an understatement.


    Oh god, it gets worse!!!  That is rough, I can't believe I'm complaining.

  • Nampa, ID · Member since 2017 · 67 posts · 24 votes
    5y

    @Stefan D. Glad you might at least break even. Thanks for posting something that proves it’s not all easy roses.

  • Wale LawalBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Houston | Dallas | Austin, TX · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    It happens to the best of us, but we all learn from our mistakes. You should be proud of taking action as this is something most people struggle with. Thank you for sharing!

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