Direct Mail Woes: 16k letters 0 deals

Direct Mail Woes: 16k letters 0 deals

Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2011 · 31 posts · 9 votes

I'm looking for a little advice on my first direct mail campaign. I've sent 16,000 letters and gotten no deals.

I sent letters to people with equity who are absentee owners who have owned the house more than 4 years or long time owner occupants who are over 65 years old. i used criteria I've heard Michael Quarles mention in his various interviews and podcasts. I mailed to everyone within 5 counties of me that meet that criteria excluding the handful of war zone zipcodes. The list is approx 8k names. I sent out 2k per week. The mail piece is a white envelope with handwritten font on the outside. The letter is as follows. It is a little different for owner occupants but the general message is the same.

10/13/2016

Hello <Contact>!

I want to buy your house at <Property Address> with cash.

I will pay cash and can close quickly. Call me at Number and we can discuss getting you paid and getting rid of the headache of managing a property you don’t live in.

I’ll buy your property “As-Is.” I’ll buy in any condition. No repairs or updating needed! Close on the day of your choice. I’m full time, experienced, local, and I answer my phone.

Give me a call at Number to get a cash offer on <Property Address>!

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Robert “Beau” Kriedermann

Number

Email address

Website

After all the names were hit in the first month, I started again hitting the names a second time. I have now hit my entire list of 8k names twice. I try to live answer the calls and I've called back every person I've missed calls from. I got about 5% response the first month and about 3% the second month. Although, the vast majority of responses are from the edges of those zipcodes I'd rather not buy in. I'll scrub those names from my list if I continue mailing. I keep track of all the contacts in my database and save their phone number when they call and make notes on each contact. I follow up on leads I think have potential. I had a couple of near deals but we couldn't quite come to agreement on price. I know I've heard people like Sharon Vornholt say 80% of deals come after the 5th contact. If I mail this list again I'm going to go with postcards for a couple rounds. I guess I'm looking for someone to tell me I'm doing the right thing and should keep going.

I'm an experienced full time investor. I started in 2008 and went full time in 2010. I've flipped about 50 houses. I know my market and have successfully negotiated deals with many sellers when they are actively searching for someone to buy their house and they find me. The conversation is a lot different when they reach out to you rather than when they respond to you reaching out to them through direct mail. I've put a few houses under contract from other marketing during this direct mail campaign.With direct mail I'm finding everyone is asking me "how much will you pay" and will rarely give me an asking price. I ask them a few questions about condition, why are they selling, etc. I come up with a ballpark number to see if we are close and most of the time we are not. No motivation. That is to be expected but you'd think I'd get one by now!

Do I continue with this campaign? The money is adding up. Should I modify something? I know from my first two months that I'm going to remove all the houses in areas that I know my phone rings off the hook from that are war zone adjacent. Is the 4 years ownership qualifier messing me up? Any advice or encouragement would be appreciated.

Thanks!

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Flipper/Rehabber · Bakersfield, CA · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
9y

yes STOP 

You're doing a bunch wrong.  

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Flipper/Rehabber · Bakersfield, CA · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    yes STOP 

    You're doing a bunch wrong.  

  • Property Manager · Griffith, IN · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 913 votes
    9y

    So you received approximately 640 calls based on your percents. Out of that, how many did you view? I view about 15% of the calls I receive and close 15% of those. So if I'm mailing 16000, I would expect to close 10-14 houses. 

    Without knowing your numbers, it's hard to pinpoint where in the sales cycle you are faulty. Can you provide them so we can provide more guidance? 

  • Urbana, IL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 425 votes
    9y

    I'm curious to hear what Michael says you need to change.

    How did you get your leads? My guess is your lead source is not a good quality lead source. For example, list source doesn't work in my area because my local areas don't report the necessary information that I would want to search by.

  • Real Estate Broker · IL · Member since 2016 · 284 posts · 178 votes
    9y
    Michael Quarles can you elaborate on what he's doing wrong? I'm going to start sending letters in January, so trying to learn as much as I can about this process
  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    9y

    Robert for one thing:

    "I sent letters to people with equity who are absentee owners who have owned the house more than 4 years or long time owner occupants who are over 65 years old."

    Your letter:

    "I will pay cash and can close quickly. Call me at Number and we can discuss getting you paid and getting rid of the headache of managing a property you don’t live in."

    I can see the letter for absentee owners but how would it speak to owner occupants? You need different letters for various groups you are mailing too.

    2 months isn't a long time. Some of these people keep stuff for 3,6 months or a year before doing something.

    Why not offer a referral fee for other people you have bought from? It seems they would have a network of friends or family that might be in the same boat and need to sell.

  • Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2011 · 31 posts · 9 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Adrien C.:

    So you received approximately 640 calls based on your percents. Out of that, how many did you view? I view about 15% of the calls I receive and close 15% of those. So if I'm mailing 16000, I would expect to close 10-14 houses. 

    Without knowing your numbers, it's hard to pinpoint where in the sales cycle you are faulty. Can you provide them so we can provide more guidance? 

     I viewed about 10 houses. I'm estimating here but the problem is I'm getting 90% of my calls from 20% of my mailings. Those 20% are undesirable areas. I included some zipcodes that have ok areas along with bad areas in them. The bad areas call nonstop. Multiple people calling from the same block. I make verbal offers when they call but they usually expect $40k and the median sales price is $18k. If I'm to move forward, I'll scrub the list and remove the houses in those areas. I'm sure my response rate will drop but I won't be on the phone all day with leads I can't use. When I started I figured I would mail to everyone and qualify when they called. The people who own busted duplexes with no garages in the bad areas are the majority of the calls I get. I think I'll remove all duplexes.

    I think I'm pretty good at disqualifying non motivated sellers over the phone. When someone calls me  from a source other than direct mail I look at the house 20% of the time and close 40% of the time. I look at comps while talking to them and give them a ballpark number. I made a lot of verbal $10k offers for lousy areas which were rejected. The more I look at this, the more I see I should scale down the mail I'm sending to the bad areas. Still, even if I remove all the undesirables, I should still have 6k people that got my mail. I'll have to take a closer look at who I'm really mailing. I'm not getting the response from the areas I'd actually want.

  • Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2011 · 31 posts · 9 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Steven J.:

    I'm curious to hear what Michael says you need to change.

    How did you get your leads? My guess is your lead source is not a good quality lead source. For example, list source doesn't work in my area because my local areas don't report the necessary information that I would want to search by.

     Yes, List source.

  • Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2011 · 31 posts · 9 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Joel Owens:

    Robert for one thing:

    "I sent letters to people with equity who are absentee owners who have owned the house more than 4 years or long time owner occupants who are over 65 years old."

    Your letter:

    "I will pay cash and can close quickly. Call me at Number and we can discuss getting you paid and getting rid of the headache of managing a property you don’t live in."

    I can see the letter for absentee owners but how would it speak to owner occupants? You need different letters for various groups you are mailing too.

    2 months isn't a long time. Some of these people keep stuff for 3,6 months or a year before doing something.

    Why not offer a referral fee for other people you have bought from? It seems they would have a network of friends or family that might be in the same boat and need to sell.

     I mail a different letter to owner occupants. 

    I’ll buy your house “As-Is.” I’ll buy in any condition. Deferred maintenance? Haven’t updated in a while? No repairs or updating needed! Call me at Number and we can discuss getting you paid and selling your house hassle free.

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    9y

    It sounds like you would get further leveraging existing relationships than starting from scratch every time.

    Why not focus on divorce attorneys, estate attorneys, bankruptcy attorneys??

    Seems more fertile ground there to get some motivated sellers possibly.

  • Real Estate Investor · Shelton, WA · Member since 2013 · 369 posts · 639 votes
    9y

    @Robert Kriedermann It may just be my area, but i would definitely ditch the last sale date of 4 years. Most homeowners at 4-5 years are 1. Just getting settled in and 2. Definitely dont have the kind of equity i want. 10+ years works for me.

    If a seller doesn't want to tell you how much they'd take for their house, they're probably not that motivated. It may just be me, but i never offer the first number. "He who speaks first, loses".  If they legitimately don't know or they wont directly answer the "How much would you take for your house today if we paid cash?" question, you can always circle back and elicit it with indirect questions: "How much do you think your house is currently worth" and then "how much equity do you think you have in the house" 

  • Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2011 · 31 posts · 9 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Joel Owens:

    It sounds like you would get further leveraging existing relationships than starting from scratch every time.

    Why not focus on divorce attorneys, estate attorneys, bankruptcy attorneys??

    Seems more fertile ground there to get some motivated sellers possibly.

     I know there are a lot of strategies. I had hoped to start with what I thought was the low hanging fruit of absentee owners. Get a deal from that to pay for the marketing there plus some and invest into another direct mail strategy. Eventually mail to them all. I'm not big enough to send mail to every list right now. I'm debating between ditching this list and starting with another or seeing it through to 6 months of mailings like I've heard a lot of experts recommend.

  • Investor · Brea, CA · Member since 2015 · 178 posts · 59 votes
    9y

    WOW Brother I would try a different area. Interesting tho I am sure you can make some changes and see a big increase.

  • Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2011 · 31 posts · 9 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Robert Kriedermann It may just be my area, but i would definitely ditch the last sale date of 4 years. Most homeowners at 4-5 years are 1. Just getting settled in and 2. Definitely dont have the kind of equity i want. 10+ years works for me.

    If a seller doesn't want to tell you how much they'd take for their house, they're probably not that motivated. It may just be me, but i never offer the first number. "He who speaks first, loses".  If they legitimately don't know or they wont directly answer the "How much would you take for your house today if we paid cash?" question, you can always circle back and elicit it with indirect questions: "How much do you think your house is currently worth" and then "how much equity do you think you have in the house" 

    It's actually 4+ years since last sale so 10+ would be included. The only people not included are those who owned it since it was built and never had a recorded sale but I had to draw the line somewhere or the list would be too large to handle. I'm thinking I'd like to take off the since last sale qualifier completely since it eliminates recently inherited houses and new landlords who get in over their heads but again, you have to draw the line somewhere to create a list you can afford. When I buy the list I specify 40% or more equity. I try not to offer the first number either but most of the people that have called are not motivated and just want to know what I'll pay.

  • Real Estate Investor · Shelton, WA · Member since 2013 · 369 posts · 639 votes
    9y

    @Robert Kriedermann Indeed! Understand 4+ would include the 10+, i guess what i was getting at was that.. if the folks in the last sale date of "4 year" range have a significantly lower probability of being "motivated" i wouldn't waste the time/$/effort on mailing to them, especially at the volume you're mailing to. Save yourself some $ and narrow your criteria! Aim small, miss small.

    Have you tried other means? Most of my deals come from bandit signs, and after a couple thousand dollars in mailers that brought me..nothing, vs $500 in bandit signs that made me..a lot..in the last 18 months.. I asked a seller (in a direct mail heavy market) while we were looking at his house, why he called me. He showed me the absolutely monstrous pile of investor direct mail he had in a box, and said, "I saw your sign, and figured you must be from the neighborhood" just my 2 cents. 

  • Ian WalshBusiness Member
    Lender · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Something seems really off here.  There should be deals in there for sure.  Are you looking to wholesale them if youre not flipping?  5% response on 16000 pieces is 800 calls.  There are deals in there for sure.  Something is missing here.

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    9y

    After all this work and all this money - what is your exit when you get a house, Robert?  Do you wholesale?   50 flips is very impressive by the way. I assume you will flip again? Run, run, run! 

    If most of your call backs are from hood houses or close to the hood and you don't want them, I'd invest in learning who does deal with those to refer them to.  Gotta be a way for you to convert and monetize those leads in some way. 

    Good luck and keep us posted!

  • Paul AmegatcherPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Brookville, OH · Member since 2016 · 488 posts · 363 votes
    9y

    High equity absentee does not equal motivated.  But based on the numbers you should have closed at least 1 deal.  As some of the previous posters stated you need to qualify the leads on the phone.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2011 · 31 posts · 9 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Robert Kriedermann Indeed! Understand 4+ would include the 10+, i guess what i was getting at was that.. if the folks in the last sale date of "4 year" range have a significantly lower probability of being "motivated" i wouldn't waste the time/$/effort on mailing to them, especially at the volume you're mailing to. Save yourself some $ and narrow your criteria! Aim small, miss small.

    Have you tried other means? Most of my deals come from bandit signs, and after a couple thousand dollars in mailers that brought me..nothing, vs $500 in bandit signs that made me..a lot..in the last 18 months.. I asked a seller (in a direct mail heavy market) while we were looking at his house, why he called me. He showed me the absolutely monstrous pile of investor direct mail he had in a box, and said, "I saw your sign, and figured you must be from the neighborhood" just my 2 cents. 

     I get deals from other means. I'm working 3 rehabs and 2 wholesale deals right now. I want to do more and have more consistent deal flow. I don't have the stomach for bandit signs. I know a guy who puts them out consistently in my area and he gets calls and threats from the authorities all the time. I thought direct mail would be a good way to increase from 10 rehabs a year to 20 rehabs a year. I think I will keep mailing to my list but take a lot of names out.

  • Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2011 · 31 posts · 9 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Ian Walsh:

    Something seems really off here.  There should be deals in there for sure.  Are you looking to wholesale them if youre not flipping?  5% response on 16000 pieces is 800 calls.  There are deals in there for sure.  Something is missing here.

    If the house isn't in an area that would be good for a flip (which 90% or more of the calls I have gotten are not good for flips even though I mail to all absentee owners within 45min-hour of me) I make an offer where I could wholesale the property by buying it with cash, and listing it on MLS to make a profit. It seems like deals would be in there but I talked to everyone and I'm not sure that there were. Maybe something is missing but I'm not sure what it is.

  • Investor · Marietta, GA · Member since 2016 · 131 posts · 84 votes
    9y

    Ouch! 16k and no deal, that would have sent me back to a cubicle and my wife would have kicked me out the house! lol joking. All of my deals have come from the telephone. I never done direct mail because of this exact situation. Skip trace and getting the owners on the phone has been hands down the best! Every owner I speak with tells me how may postcard and letters they get and throw away and how they appreciate my call. 

    Hope this helps

  • Investor · Memphis, TN · Member since 2016 · 549 posts · 286 votes
    9y

    @Robert

    @Robert Kriedermann I'm curious about your friend, where is he placing his sings?  Is he placing them in the ground or on poles/stop signs etc.?

  • Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2011 · 31 posts · 9 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:

    After all this work and all this money - what is your exit when you get a house, Robert?  Do you wholesale?   50 flips is very impressive by the way. I assume you will flip again? Run, run, run! 

    If most of your call backs are from hood houses or close to the hood and you don't want them, I'd invest in learning who does deal with those to refer them to.  Gotta be a way for you to convert and monetize those leads in some way. 

    Good luck and keep us posted!

    I rehab it, it is in an owner occupied neighborhood. Almost all of the calls I received were not so I planned to buy as is and list as-is for sale on the MLS. The median prices in the areas that called were about $15k so it doesn't take a lot of capital to buy for $10k and sell for $20k and make $7k. I would have been happy to do that but there were no clear opportunities to do so. For example, one guy was interested in selling for the back taxes he owned of $3,000. But the place was boarded up and in bad shape in a bad area. There were plenty of sales in the neighborhood at $2500. It is possible someone would have paid $10k but it is hard to tell the difference between a $2500 house and a $10k house by pictures in MLS. It wasn't worth the risk to me to buy that property and deal with keeping the house safe and myself safe visiting the property everyday to check on it for maybe $7k or maybe lose money. My average deal is buy for $75k, put $45k into it and sell for $160k in a solid owned occupied neighborhood. I mailed to those places but got very few calls.

  • Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2011 · 31 posts · 9 votes
    9y

    @Jason Hopkins I know he pays someone to put them out. I'm not sure exactly where he puts them. Sometimes they stay up, sometimes they get taken down right away, and sometimes the city calls him and threatens fines. 

  • Investor · Memphis, TN · Member since 2016 · 549 posts · 286 votes
    9y

    @Robert Kriedermann  Thanks, I was just curious about that.  I know a guy that uses them and the city has yet to call him. 

  • Real Estate Investor/Wholesaler · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 757 posts · 318 votes
    9y

    This business is all about sales and marketing. I always tell people if your not marketing for at least 6 months + then don't even bother!  Personally, I wouldn't of sent that many out your first time around, would of went with a much smaller number and made sure to hit those same people every month for at least 6 months!  Sometimes its the 4th or 5th letter that inspires them to call, not the 2nd. Unfortunately its also a numbers game. If your in it for the long haul then put systems in place, mail to different lists and track everything. Just my 2 cents.

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