PIP Group / PIP East / PIP West

PIP Group / PIP East / PIP West

Investor · Richmond, VA · Member since 2013 · 347 posts · 191 votes

I mentioned in a separate post over a year ago that I had bought some tax liens through PIP East and was hopeful on the prospect of obtaining a property that way. My experience was an example of "be careful what you wish for". But I wanted to do a new post about working with this company. Bottom line was that they did provide the services they claimed they would do related to obtaining tax liens and, if not redeemed, going through the foreclosure process to obtain the deed. The entire process took longer than I expected. It took about 15 months from initial purchase to obtaining the deeds on two of the five liens I purchased. I also expected more help with selling the properties once I got the deeds. That's part of what they said they would do, but isn't the main focus of their business. I am most familiar with their work with liens in Illinois since that is what I purchased.

I am not sure of the current business model for PIP but at the time I started working with them in mid-2013 they had two sets of customers for the tax lien deals they put together. The first group were people who wanted to buy a lien and collect the proceeds from penalties and interest for the first 24 to 30 months (less the fees that PIP charges for obtaining the liens). The second group are people who want to buy those liens at about the 24 to 30 month mark in hopes of being able to foreclose once the property goes past the 36 month limit without being redeemed. I was part of the second group.

PIP provided a long list of properties that were ready to switch hands from group 1 to group 2. It was up to me to review all the properties and select what I wanted to purchase. They did provide photos and a few sentences about the condition of the property. There are entire books and courses devoted to doing due diligence on buying a tax lien for possible foreclosure. My own efforts were pretty much limited to google street view and some basic info on the local county or city property records. Because of the fees charged by PIP and the fact that group 2 is buying out group 1 you have to be sure that the remaining penalties will at least cover the cost of the lien. This favors higher priced liens to make the numbers work.

I wound up buying five liens on properties in Illinois. Three of these redeemed at 1, 3 and 6 months after purchase with returns of 24, 0 and -9%. In total those three returned 6%. Not bad considering the main plan was to at least break even on any that redeemed.

Two of the properties moved forward to foreclosure. What I didn't realize when I started down this path was that there would be at least one to two more years worth of taxes still to pay before all was said and done. For one property I had to come up with another $16k to pay the additional back taxes and foreclosure fees. That would have been the right time for me to bail, but since I had $8k into it already and the house (I thought) was worth about $100k I pushed ahead. I figured even if I sold at 50% I would still double my money. My main contact at PIP was looking at it the same way. So I was hearing what I wanted to hear. I don't think they were being dishonest. I think they just didn't have the full detail on every area or neighborhood given the volume of business they do. This is where some new google street view photos of not just this home but the surrounding area would have shown me the number of boarded up homes in the area and a bit more research would have shown the foreclosures being sold at $10k or so. The folks at PIP had a couple of potential outlets including selling to their investors and selling bundles of homes to larger firms. Every month or so I spoke with my contact there to find out if any leads were popping up that might be willing to pay enough to at least cover what I had in this deal. I had other projects going on closer to home so I let this ride for quite a while (i.e. almost a year) before I realized that I was going to have to take action myself to unload the property. Eventually I contacted local real estate agents who confirmed the $7 to $10k price points in the area. One of them sent the deal out to her investors but no bites. To not drag this out too far .. bottom line is that I sold this via a craigslist ad for $8000. By that point I felt fortunate to find anyone who wanted this property. So I lost about $18k on that deal.

On the other foreclosure things turned out a bit better but I still wound up doing more to coordinate the sale than I had expected. One thing I didn't realize about this home is that it was in a town of only about 4000 people. I took action a bit sooner on this one, also listing on craigslist. Amazingly there was someone trying to find out what was going on with that particular house who googled the address and found my ad. I wound up selling to her with owner financing (after reading up quite a bit on the Dodd-Frank implications of that). In order to make that happen I had to arrange to replace the furnace and all the plumbing. Fortunately I was able to connect with a good contractor who could take care of things at a reasonable cost. For both of these deals I had to find a lawyer in Illinois to work with on the contracts and, for this home, the financing agreement. On this deal I had a total of about $21k into it and sold it for $28k with seller financing at 8%. In a few years I plan to sell the note so the final tally won't be known til then. Between the two houses I'll lose some money but not enough to make a huge dent in my overall investing plan.

Would I do this again? Probably not, but mainly because I would prefer to focus on deals in my local area that I can go see. As you can tell from my post, most of what I wrote had to do with my own decisions and actions and not as much about what PIP did or didn't do. If you are interested in working with them just make sure you are clear about their fees, try to estimate the total cost from start to finish and plan on the whole process taking a year or so. Compare that to whatever else you could be doing with your money and do your due diligence.

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Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
10y

Yep, this has been my knock on all the "tax lien buying services" from the get go.  They say 'we have no competition on interest rates when we buy, since we buy from the county, over the counter".  Exactly, these liens "bear the maximum interest rate offered by the county" simply because None Of The Other Bidders Wanted Them, because they were useless parcels, hence they went to the county.  How is that Ever going to be a smart buying strategy?

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    10y

    @Wayne Brooks

    Of course you are right, but at least that is theoretically, doable on a small scale. That makes it a believable pitch. 

    The one  that get s me is "We get a discount because we buy in bulk"  Um no, it's an auction, the people who buy the most have to pay the most. If the county is giving you a discount on over the counter crap then you are really buying the worst of the worst.

  • Investor · Frisco, TX · Member since 2015 · 6 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    Thanks all. I was ready to take a plunge with PIP and I ran into this and few other negative reviews online. I live in Texas.. Is this some thing we can do ourselves. Any good resources and network of people would be great

  • Investor · Richmond, VA · Member since 2013 · 347 posts · 191 votes
    9y

    It's been quite a while since I spoke with PIP about their offerings but what I recall is that their deals for properties in Texas are quite different from the tax lien strategy in Illinois since Texas is a deed state, not a lien state. So I would recommend that you study up here on Bigger Pockets about the difference between those two. It's vastly different and therefore risks would be different as well as the activities you would have to do to go it alone on bidding, auctions, etc to get a deed property in Texas.

  • Greg ScottPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · SE Michigan · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    9y

    @Kenisha Forbes @Jerry K.

    Here is a follow-on to my previous posts.  Thanks to Kenisha and Jerry for providing potential leads.  I followed up on them and it was confirmed that the liens are effectively worthless.   Technically I own the rights to be paid on those liens for 20 years, but given that they are liens on undesirable rural land, the likelihood anybody would buy them is remote.

    All of my liens were selected and bought for me by PIP with the intention of getting them either redeemed or foreclosing on the underlying asset. While I am sophisticated enough of an investor to accept risk and losses, others familiar with tax lien investing indicate it should have been easy for them to predict that many of those liens would become worthless.

  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    9y

     @Greg Scott while it is probably not worth going after them for your own benefit, you can probably make a few well placed calls and get them in real trouble. My guess is their system would be determined to be a security and I am sure they are not complying with securities laws.

  • Greg ScottPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · SE Michigan · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    9y

    @Ned Carey  I suspect you are right on both counts.   There are legal battles going on now between powerful people with much more resources than I have.   I think I'll stay out of the fray for now.

  • Long Beach, CA · Member since 2017 · 1 post · 0 votes
    9y

    I too bought the PIP, PIP West, PIP Group dream. I still have a number of liens going back to 2008 and 2009. Anyone have any interest in Kankakee and La Salle Counties' liens? What is the best way to find someone who might see the opportunity in unredeemed liens?

    Buyer beware!!!!

  • Rental Property Investor · Manteno, IL · Member since 2015 · 23 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    @Greg Scott

    I looked up your map link,  you are right,  vacant land and even most homes in that area are basically worthless.   Its one of the poorest areas in IL.   

    @George Zuluaga   

    I would be interested to hear the areas in Kankakee county that you have the liens,   If anything I maybe able to give you a local insight on the value of the properties.    

  • Phoenicia, NY · Member since 2017 · 1 post · 1 vote
    9y

    Thanks for sharing your experience in so much helpful detail, Shera! I bought one tax lien from PIP and have had a much more positive experience. 

    Two years ago, I had just completed a tax lien 'purchase party' with Fortris Tax Sale Training and Joanne Musa the 'tax lien lady'. We were supposed to be able to buy at least one tax lien at the end of the weekend, however, this turned out to not be possible for some of us so we were offered a list of tax liens from PIP that were nearing the end of their redemption period. (Tom Yung and his daughter were also on that weekend - Hi Tom!)

    Having just been on the course, I knew that thorough due diligence was needed so I checked the county populations, local job markets, foreclosures and many other factors, in addition to finding out as much as I could about the properties themselves. We were told on the course to never buy a tax lien on a property that we wouldn't want to own as an investment. I took this very seriously!

    In the end, I selected one lien against a single family residence in Farmer City IL. The lien did not redeem and, after doing even more due diligence, I foreclosed and look possession of the property. The process took much longer than anticipated, however, the folks at PIP were very helpful and clear about what they would do and for what cost. I decided to let them do the foreclosure and that I would handle the sale of the property 'as is' with seller finance remotely from upstate New York. 

    It took 22 months from receiving the tax lien list to selling the property, however, my total costs were just under $15k  (including foreclosure costs, back taxes, quiet title, title insurance, closing costs - everything!). I recently sold the property on an installment contract for $55k. PIP was very quick to send the documents we needed for the closing when I asked.

    I got most of my money back with the down payment at closing. I have made a $40k return on my $15k investment over two years plus interest on the balance for as long as I keep the note. My intention is to season the note while helping the buyers to improve their credit score. In 6-9 months, I will encourage them to refinance with a banking institution (so I don't have to sell the note at a discount or pay for the deed transfer) and I will take my profit out. The buyers will benefit by getting the deed to the property (which I currently hold) and a lower interest rate. 

    I intend to buy more unredeemed tax liens from PIP with the proceeds, but only if I can find any that meet my requirements. As noted by others, many of the liens are against are vacant land in the middle of nowhere or houses that cost more to buy/repair than they will ever be worth. If I can figure out a way to make a profit on those I'll let you know!

    I suppose the take away from all this is that investing in tax liens is neither quick nor easy and that investing first in education and a lot of research can save a great deal of grief later on and improve our chances of success. I have found this to be the case with every investment vehicle I've tried.

  • Investor · Irvine, CA · Member since 2014 · 54 posts · 30 votes
    9y

    I have used PIP Group for a number of years for the purchase of tax liens and I am quite pleased with results. First let me say something that should be obvious ... that tax-liens different from state to state because the laws are different state by state. Secondly, they require a fair amount of education on the investors part.  More than most are willing to put into it. Third, the redemptions can be unpredictable meaning is the lien going to be paid/redeemed in year 1 , 2 or 3 or never.

    Fourth,  you can easily end up with a dud property or one not worth taking title to or rehabbing.

  • Service Provider · Hilton Head Island, SC · Member since 2016 · 20 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    @Greg Scott I would like to personally apologize with your experience with The PIP Group. I realize this post comes more than a year after your initial posting, but to be very honest, we do not have a lot of negative feedback, so it is not something we monitor regularly. In fact, you are only one of four "real" clients with negative feedback on BP. In 17 years of business, we have had 9 unhappy investors and no formal claims filed against The PIP Group. As of the date of this posting, we have 757 active customers. That is a dissatisfaction rate of .00527%, which we are very proud of.

    That said, one disappointed client is one client too many. Nobody is perfect and we strive to do our best when mistakes are made. @Greg Scott, you are entirely right that your portfolio did not perform to our/your expectations and is not representative of normal activity. As you know, we state 30% of liens typically redeem in the first, second and part of the third year, leaving 10% for foreclosure consideration. Per your initial thread, your liens were on pace and performing just slightly under typical in the first year. I think it is important to convey that you had enough confidence in The PIP Group to invest with our services in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and again in 2012. The bulk of your investments were primarily in the midst of the GFC and U.S. recession and performed rather well in those times, but I do feel that had an impact on the eventual slowdown of the redemptions. The liens purchased then (and performing) were no different than those purchased in later years. One thing The PIP Group conveys to prospects and investors alike, is that we have no way of knowing why one lien redeems a prior year, but the subsequent does not. When I am asked “what is the risk,” my canned answer is ALWAYS that we have no crystal ball to predict what is going to redeem, or not, or why something will, or won’t. Your liens were performing very well, until they weren’t. Looking at what was purchased and where, had nothing to do with the performance. In fact, until the slowdown, you had a NET YEILD ON REDEMPTIONS OF 39.33%! That said, foreclosure is your best option of leverage if the liens do not redeem, which brings me to my next point.

    I can entirely agree with the difficulty in trying to understand the logic of spending $3k on a lien that appears to have a valuation of only $2k. In a spot check of your account, I see some were farmland. In our early classes of understanding foreclosure and different types of assessments, we conveyed that farmland is assessed very differently and that a $1200 valuation could actually be more like a $120k valuation. Rural, obviously, but farmland is one of our best sellers in Illinois. Investors between 2008 and 2011 were not only caught by the recession, but also legislative changes (in 2009) in Illinois, which made foreclosure of unredeemed liens next to nearly impossible.

    The PIP Group prides itself on its performance and ability to provide conservative and consistent, high yield potentials to our customers. I am not trying to make excuses for your experience, but there were certainly many challenges we faced between 2008 and 2012. We do our best to adapt to legislative and economical changes as they occur, but at no time do we, or have we ever promised a guarantee on the performance of your liens. You endured a "perfect storm" of both legislative and economical changes occurring in the midst of your investments. Much like a stock buyer cannot hold a stock broker responsible for the crash of a market, I don't think it is entirely fair to hold The PIP Group accountable for losses you may have encountered due to a recession and legislative changes in IL.

    Again, we are not perfect and I am not trying to drum up excuses as to why your account did not perform typical to what our clients see. What worked for us from 1996 through 2012, changed dramatically. We adapted and we made numerous internal changes to both policy and process to make sure an experience like yours could be mitigated as best as possible in the future. We continue to be recognized as an industry leader and are awarded and vetted by reputable institutions in our industry for same.

  • Service Provider · Hilton Head Island, SC · Member since 2016 · 20 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    @Ned Carey I find it interesting how much time you spend trashing The PIP Group and I can only assume it is a feeble attempt to try and push business to your Crab Properties, since you constantly tag your company in your posts? In the limited number of posts I have views (out of over 10,000 you have posted) you are continuously referring people back to your blog and better yet, "I prefer the BWI Meetup Group," when referring people in your area to an REIA. Well of course you do, because you are an "adviser" on there who has the audacity to claim you took $500 and turned it into $1mm in two years. Those sort of pipe dreams are exactly what we DON'T promote, but you sure do. You are exactly why there should only be a sliver of credit taken to anything posted on BP, because as a "Moderator", who has over 10k posts on here, how in the heck do you have the time to turn $500 into $1mm in 2 years? http://bwimeetup.com/individual_advisors/

    You sir, are what those of us who are legitimate in this business refer to as a "Blogger Hogger."  You use platforms such as BP to defame your competition, validate yourself and try to drum up business.  Well, I have news for you, The PIP Group is way out of your league.  I honestly do not know why you take the time to chime in on what you don't know, unless it is an attempt to gain the respect of the very few (2 clients in this thread) who state a poor experience with The PIP Group.    

    There are a number of comments you have made about The PIP Group on the few threads that are out there about us, which do not merit the time for a response, but your assumption that we are a security and your slimy, lame attempt to try and encourage a report to the proper regulators speaks volumes of your true intent and character.  We are not a registered security.  We are a service provider and the fact that you do not know the difference between the two, again, speaks volumes about your amateur level of experience in this arena.  Your attempts to attack a major league player from your minor league dugout is a really poor method of trying to score business and push yourself to the big leagues.  Using a platform like BP to spread false information and doubt can be described as nothing more than pathetic.  

    Allow myself and The PIP Group to state some facts to your ongoing fiction.  

    1) As stated, PIP is not an investment adviser.  We are a service provider.  Do you really believe that with over 750 clients, hundreds of thousands of transactions completed and hundreds of millions of dollars in deals done (on behalf of our clients) we haven't come under the scrutiny of every regulator there possibly could be?  Do you not understand that there are numerous compliance regulations that we actually DO follow?  As a Moderator and self-proclaimed expert on this topic, you do know the very basics of how all this works, right?

    2) Contrary to a statement posted here, The PIP Group is not and never has been involved in any sort of claim against The PIP Group.  Other than the very few postings on BP (which you are more than happy to comment on), there is not so much as even a formal complaint that has been filed against The PIP Group - much less a judgement awarded against us.  I would say that speaks volumes about our character and ability.  Not even so much as a complaint filed with the SOS in the states we operate within.  

    3) You wasted no time to jump on board with slanderous and liable statements made by Jason Hartman.  We did, in fact, file a lawsuit against him.  You should have done your homework (even if only a quick google search) about this individual, before you jumped on board in trying to come up with a point to agree with him.  In doing so, however, you have only damaged your own reputation, not ours.  For anyone wanting to see the details surrounding this individual, we are more than willing to share and allow one to make their own determination of the true character of this individual.  You can start by visiting his alter-ego, JakeSwank.com 

    4) You wasted no time to jump on a comment about another client claiming "scam."  There, I provided the truth behind the lies, which was The PIP Group (on behalf of the client) had invested more than 3x the clients initial investment, in the clients property, which was 100% in the client's sole possession, in an attempt to protect the client's interest.  

    Don't misunderstand my position here.  The PIP Group freely admits and acknowledges that with hundreds of thousands of deals done over the years, mistakes can and do happen.  We make every effort to correct those mistakes and our record (or lack of a legal one) speaks for itself.  We have a .00527% dissatisfaction rate.  By American standards, if you can keep 80% of your customers happy, you are considered above standards.  

    My issue here is not with a couple of clients using this platform to attempt to "warn" others.  If we did not live up to their standards, we are very sorry and we will strive to do better.  My issue is to the Blogger Hoggers like yourself, that use these platforms to try and get business.  Do like the rest of us who are reputable in the industry and PERFORM for your clients consistently and build your reputation WITHIN the industry, rather than try to trash what you consider the competition for a head start.  I have ignored a number of the threads that have negatively impacted The PIP Group, because if we have failed somehow, others should know and we should be given the opportunity to explain what happened, or what we have done to make sure that mistake doesn't happen again.  I am growing so tired of Blogger Hoggers, however, it is time to speak up on behalf of The PIP Group.  

    The PIP Group has tried to not condone the activities of Blogger Hoggers, by responding and thereby, providing them with a louder platform to speak.  Unlike Blogger Hoggers, The PIP Group validates its reputation not by the number of blogs it posts on various platforms, but by its long standing history of performance.  We further validate our reputation by the recognition of our industry leaders and ACTUAL competitors, by the numerous awards and accolades we have received from them consistently over the years.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2012 · 314 posts · 146 votes
    8y

    I had a terrible experience as a client/customer of Charles Sells and/or PIP Group, PIP West, PIP East, Platinum Investment Properties or whatever name applies.  My losses appear to be in excess of $300,000 - ouch!   

    Several of PIP's customers came to me to share their bad experiences and some told their stories on my podcast.  Feel free to listen to their first-hand accounts.  

    We filed a lawsuit against Charles Sells / PIP and we'll see what happens as it unfolds - more to come.   

    @Ned Carey

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y

    @Charles Sells  I know for a fact Jason drives a Tesla.. !!!  and he loves it  :)  @Jason Hartman

    tax lien investing is highly risky.. at least from my point of view.. I blew through 10k one time and never got one to redeem. I did this on my own though I needed no help from anyone to lose my money.

    but hey I lost interest in them and did not follow up.

    for every winner in those deals there are some losers.. I think the issue is the poor investing public gets talked into this stuff not understanding the risks involved..

    Will be interesting to follow along and see how you boys make out in your litigation.

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2012 · 314 posts · 146 votes
    8y

    That's funny Charles Sells I had two (2) Teslas, both in my company name. I like the first one but the second one wasn't so good as @Jay Hinrichs knows all too well.  

    We have interesting background checks on you for sure.  Also, the emails from your former PIP employee who says you and Don Fullman:

    "run a multi-million dollar ponzi (scheme), and they point the finger at us to make it look like we're the bad guys."

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y

    @Charles Sells  OK I appreciate emotions run high in this stuff..  I have been to a few of Jasons events he has a pretty sophisticated investor group that I have met in person.. as to his personal trappings well that would only be speculation on my part.

    to get back on subject worthless tax liens  my point was I can see how this happens.. my dad was in the land business and we always had slivers and odd parcels left over and he would let them go to tax's hoping someone who is not so swift would buy the parcel and we would get the overage.. Now that's  tax deed..   when I chased a few tax lien sales.. it was a major event.. no way you could really bid on a certain property it went to fast.. and I suppose it was companies like yours buying them in bulk.. but in doing so it was evident it was a point shoot and duck affair.. Maybe in rural smaller counties were the sale is not going at mach 1 y can actually bid on a specific property...  but anyway.. like I said I took a few hundred grand to the sale. spent 10k and quit I knew I would get hosed if I kept buying .. and I consider myself a fairly savvy investor.

    it was too wild even for me.. but I can see buying in bulk repackaging and selling them off.. just like those that sell land that has limited to no value in the high deserts of CA and other areas of the desert west.. its an old and long played out game that's for sure.

  • Service Provider · Hilton Head Island, SC · Member since 2016 · 20 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    Thanks again for the post @Jay Hinrichs. Just curious, but what state were you buying in? I see you are from Oregon.

    Thing about tax sales, is it requires an enriched level of discipline and networking. We try to stress, as an individual, you are going to fail. As a collective (bulk buyer) you can dominate the market, but we allow our investors to remain in control. If they are absent to make time sensitive decisions, there is nothing more we can do. You explained it perfectly, so I will not step on those comments. We have been doing this for 17 years and @Jason Hartman is a small fish in a big pond, but he carries a big megaphone. I won't speak on behalf of the others he has tried to extort via podcast, but in my own experience, that is exactly what he has done. He waited for us to be an authority to the industry and then thought we would pay him off quietly, rather than fight on a basis of principal. We weren't the first firm he has done this to and we certainly won't be the last! Why not take it to court, rather than go with a slimy smear campaign online? Why not engage in his right for arbitration (per the agreement he broke)? Why wait so many years after the fact? Jason invested with us in 2008 and he conveniently fails to include the following details in his posts, or self-righteous podcasts. If things went so bad, why not file a lawsuit against us then? The fact is, he didn't have a case, doesn't have a case and certainly never lost anything of the figures he has claimed in his attempt to extort and his smear campaign. Yes, he has tried to file another lawsuit against us, to which we have simultaneously filed a counterclaim, as well as requested it be dismissed, because he is well beyond limitations, because again, he is just trying to gain some “hush-money” to pay for his newest venture – SwankLife.com.

    Here are the DOCUMENTED FACTS:

    1) @Jason Hartman engaged PIP Group with his first set of lien purchases on November 7th, 2007.

    2) From his total investments of $169,560.24 (remember, he claims a loss of over $300k as of today), he was returned a total of $178,665.79. Of that amount, $41,927.85 was profits earned against liens redeemed, or a gross profit of 24.7% against total principal invested.

    3) @Jason Hartman had a remaining principal of $32,822.30, which were representative of unredeemed liens, to which he had a right to initiate foreclosure. He did so, outside the scope of the terms of the PIP agreement.

    4) Mr. Hartman had delinquent bills due to PIP for not only service fees, but also direct costs incurred (on behalf of Hartman) totaling close to $12,000. These bills were delinquent for more than 18 months!

    5) In an attempt to recover expenses incurred on behalf of Hartman, PIP took title to a property. PIP presented Hartman with numerous options, including payment of his balance due in full, for the transfer of the title (at cost) back to Hartman. He chose no options and refused to pay his balance owed to PIP - even for JUST the direct costs incurred.

    Hartman (in our initial claim against him) proved to be nothing more than a deadbeat who doesn't pay his bills and tries to file lawsuits against people who challenge him to be honest. The PIP Group is a victim of his unstable tirades. It is our understanding (unconfirmed) he has had so many lawsuits filed against him and judgments, that he is "not insurable," with respect to basic E/O insurance, or defense against claims filed against him.

    Anyone wanting to see the facts behind his fiction are welcome to reach out to PIP directly. We will be posting all the public records of this sham, scum, scam, college dropout, who became a "real estate guru" with just a couple years working as a real estate agent (from his mom's basement) very soon. Let’s not forget the womanizing alter-ego of JakeSwank.com.

    Thanks again for the post @Jay Hinrichs. Just curious, but what state were you buying in? I see you are from Oregon.

    Thing about tax sales, is it requires an enriched level of discipline and networking. We try to stress, as an individual, you are going to fail. As a collective (bulk buyer) you can dominate the market, but we allow our investors to remain in control. If they are absent to make time sensitive decisions, there is nothing more we can do. You explained it perfectly, so I will not step on those comments. We have been doing this for 17 years and @Jason Hartman is a small fish in a big pond, but he carries a big megaphone. I won't speak on behalf of the others he has tried to extort via podcast, but in my own experience, that is exactly what he has done. He waited for us to be an authority to the industry and then thought we would pay him off quietly, rather than fight on a basis of principal. We weren't the first firm he has done this to and we certainly won't be the last! Why not take it to court, rather than go with a slimy smear campaign online? Why not engage in his right for arbitration (per the agreement he broke)? Why wait so many years after the fact? Jason invested with us in 2008 and he conveniently fails to If things went so bad, why not file a lawsuit against us then? The fact is, he didn't have a case, doesn't have a case and certainly never lost anything of the figures he has claimed in his attempt to extort and his smear campaign.

  • Service Provider · Hilton Head Island, SC · Member since 2016 · 20 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    Oh and as we just learned, the Georgia property he owned, which enabled us to file the lawsuit against him IN Georgia, has been foreclosed on.  That is ONE HECK OF A GURU!

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2012 · 314 posts · 146 votes
    8y

    Aren’t there nine (9) criminal records showing on your background check Charles Sells?  Tell us about those? 

  • Greg ScottPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · SE Michigan · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    8y

    @Jason Hartman   I have great respect for Jason and the work his company does.

    I bought six single family properties from Jason Hartman's company, investing about $120K in total over about a 5 year period.   Most of the transactions were seamless and every property performed almost exactly as expected.   

    One time  I had a problem with one of their service providers who agreed to do several repairs prior to closing but didn't.  Jason and his team help me resolve the problems.   Fast forward a few years and I'm happy to report we made thousands of dollars of cash flow.  While we did not count on it, we also made tens of thousands of dollars on appreciation.  

    I've sold off all but one of those properties now.  I haven't done a tally, but my guestimate is that we did 2.5x our money in about 5 years.   

    I regularly recommend Jason's organization to people interested in getting into real estate.


    @Jason Hartman

    @Jason Hartman

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2012 · 314 posts · 146 votes
    8y

    Thanks @Greg Scott - Glad your investments went well! I 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y

    @Charles Sells  I was in Hinds county Mississippi and Rankin county Mississippi  when I was buying my liens.

    and well first to admit I just forgot about them and did not want to spend time chasing 10k.. just forgot about it frankly. but not one of them paid off.. and maybe if I hand spent the 200k I had with me I would have been more engaged..

    its a niche no doubt..

    I found Charleston SC 5 years ago one of the guru's turned me on to it.. and I have been building new construction there ever since.. love that market.

  • Service Provider · Hilton Head Island, SC · Member since 2016 · 20 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    Oh no @Jason Hartman!  I just realized I missed this little nugget of a post.....That's funny Charles Sells I had two (2) Teslas, both in my company name. I like the first one but the second one wasn't so good as @Jay Hinrichs knows all too well.

    We have interesting background checks on you for sure. Also, the emails from your former PIP employee who says you and Don Fullman:

    "run a multi-million dollar ponzi (scheme), and they point the finger at us to make it look like we're the bad guys."

    1) Who is "we"?  We have you in a deposition admitting you are a one-man dog and pony show, or do you have a mouse in your pocket?  

    2) You don't have "interesting background checks" on me/PIP, because there is nothing on me, or PIP.  If so, then PRODUCE IT for all to see!  You can't, but we will!  I am indeed guilt of one thing - I drive fast and likely have 9 speeding tickets over the course of my lifetime.  Honestly, I think there are probably more than 9.

    3) "Emails from a former employee of PIP?"  Geez, our attorneys are going to wipe the floor with you when you don't use your words properly. Since you have a problem with facts, let me clear this up for you.  First, I assume you refer to a bidder who was not an employee, but an outside contractor we used for bidding purposes in the state of IL ONLY.  Fact #1 - not an employee.  If he were an employee, do you not realize it is very common practice for an employee to go off and try to hurt their previous employer, if they feel they were let go without good reason?  Wait, you have no employees, so you probably cannot appreciate this concept.  Fact #2, we (my staff and I) decided to run background checks on all past and new hires and contractors.  It was a recommendation by one of our 700+ happy clients and a good one.  We were shocked to discover this contract (you have quoted above) had been found guilty in Rico Act violations, so we terminated our contract with him immediately.  Funny someone convicted of RICO Act violations is accusing us of committing RICO Act violations.  Funnier yet, that you are using this guy as a method of "proof" of your slanderous remarks against us.  

    4) Do you even know what a ponzi scheme is?  I am going to guess now, because the way our models are set up and by simply reading the terms of our agreement, it is literally impossible to even come close to even an attempt at such nonsense.  

    Keep posting!  I am sure your attorney is begging you to shut up right about now.  The more you talk, the better our case becomes and if you haven't figured it out by now, I am baiting you with a purpose.  You are too egotistical and self-serving to keep your mouth shut and we and our attorneys and banking on just that - we thank you!

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2012 · 314 posts · 146 votes
    8y

    Your post is absurd, as usual. I have an email from your former employee, @Charles Sells, saying:

    "These two (Charles Sells and Don Fullman) run a multi-million dollar ponzi, and they point the finger at us to make it look like we're the bad guys."  

    That's a simple fact - I pasted it directly from the email. As for all of your other absurdities, you're just hurting your own credibility with more lies. 

  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    8y

    @Charles Sells

    I am glad you had the opportunity to defend yourself here on BP.  

    Frankly however I don't think you have represented yourself well here. 

     I have no dog in this fight.  I don't know you or @Jason Hartman. I don't know if you are both ethical decent people with a legitimate misunderstanding, if one is right and the other wrong, or perhaps you are both scumbags. I Don't have enough information to make a judgment. 

    I find it interesting that you feel it necessary to defend yourself against my comments. I don't see where I have "Trashed you" in this thread.

    I have not specifically mentioned you or your company in any post in this thread. I wrote 2 posts that were not about you and my third short post which was about you, hardly qualifies as; spending a lot of time trashing you. 

    I don't "Tag" my company it is part of my signature automatically applied to every post.  A signature line is very common not just here on BP  but other forums, blog posts and  emails. Not understanding what a signature line is and how it is used shows a lack of sophistication. You should also realize you just insulted tens of thousands of members who also use a signature line. 

    There is nothing wrong in referring people to my blog. To imply otherwise is silly. I refer people to BWI Meetup as that has been my favorite group. I haven't been on their advisory board for almost a year since they disbanded it. However your ignorance of that fact can be excused as I see the website still mentions it. However it was a volunteer position and I received no benefit by promoting BWI.

    There is nothing wrong with stating something that is true. There is something wrong as  you have done, with trying to discredit someone by misquoting them.  I took $500.00 in 2011 and turned it into a business doing 1 million in 6 years, not the two years you quoted. 

    Disparaging BP is not likely to win you any points from readers of BP. Our readers are intelligent enough to read varying viewpoints and decide for themselves what makes most sense.  

    For the second time in one paragraph you misquote me.  For the record it has taken me almost 10 years to write that many posts. Any credibility I have here is due to the quality or lack thereof of what I have written.

    You are not even my competition, I have never seen your company's name in the Baltimore City Tax Sale. Yes I am critical, sometimes very critical, of companies that I feel deserve criticism. There are very few here on BP that I would consider my competition. Most of those I am friends with and respect. Perhaps the most direct competitor I have here on BP is Terry Royce a Baltimore Wholesaler.  I respect him tremendously and we had lunch together yesterday. 

    I don't assume you are a security. I said I "suspect" you are. That is based on comments I have read about how you run your business. You say "We are a service provider."    W. J. Howey Co.  considered themselves a service provider too. 

    SEC vs Howie -The Howie Test

    I have not responded directly to any of Jayson's posts here, nor I have I supported his position. 

    I don't have clients. My business model is very different from yours. You are not  my competition. I invest for my own account. I have never promoted my tax lien business here or solicited money for my tax lien business on BP.  In fact my business is well funded and people cannot invest in my tax lien business. I turn money down regularly. So you accusations are unfounded. 

    Charles Osgood said

    One indication of the validity of a principal is the vigor and persistence with which it is opposed

    Based on that quote I think readers will have an idea who has a valid point of view.

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