PIP Group / PIP East / PIP West

PIP Group / PIP East / PIP West

Investor · Richmond, VA · Member since 2013 · 347 posts · 191 votes

I mentioned in a separate post over a year ago that I had bought some tax liens through PIP East and was hopeful on the prospect of obtaining a property that way. My experience was an example of "be careful what you wish for". But I wanted to do a new post about working with this company. Bottom line was that they did provide the services they claimed they would do related to obtaining tax liens and, if not redeemed, going through the foreclosure process to obtain the deed. The entire process took longer than I expected. It took about 15 months from initial purchase to obtaining the deeds on two of the five liens I purchased. I also expected more help with selling the properties once I got the deeds. That's part of what they said they would do, but isn't the main focus of their business. I am most familiar with their work with liens in Illinois since that is what I purchased.

I am not sure of the current business model for PIP but at the time I started working with them in mid-2013 they had two sets of customers for the tax lien deals they put together. The first group were people who wanted to buy a lien and collect the proceeds from penalties and interest for the first 24 to 30 months (less the fees that PIP charges for obtaining the liens). The second group are people who want to buy those liens at about the 24 to 30 month mark in hopes of being able to foreclose once the property goes past the 36 month limit without being redeemed. I was part of the second group.

PIP provided a long list of properties that were ready to switch hands from group 1 to group 2. It was up to me to review all the properties and select what I wanted to purchase. They did provide photos and a few sentences about the condition of the property. There are entire books and courses devoted to doing due diligence on buying a tax lien for possible foreclosure. My own efforts were pretty much limited to google street view and some basic info on the local county or city property records. Because of the fees charged by PIP and the fact that group 2 is buying out group 1 you have to be sure that the remaining penalties will at least cover the cost of the lien. This favors higher priced liens to make the numbers work.

I wound up buying five liens on properties in Illinois. Three of these redeemed at 1, 3 and 6 months after purchase with returns of 24, 0 and -9%. In total those three returned 6%. Not bad considering the main plan was to at least break even on any that redeemed.

Two of the properties moved forward to foreclosure. What I didn't realize when I started down this path was that there would be at least one to two more years worth of taxes still to pay before all was said and done. For one property I had to come up with another $16k to pay the additional back taxes and foreclosure fees. That would have been the right time for me to bail, but since I had $8k into it already and the house (I thought) was worth about $100k I pushed ahead. I figured even if I sold at 50% I would still double my money. My main contact at PIP was looking at it the same way. So I was hearing what I wanted to hear. I don't think they were being dishonest. I think they just didn't have the full detail on every area or neighborhood given the volume of business they do. This is where some new google street view photos of not just this home but the surrounding area would have shown me the number of boarded up homes in the area and a bit more research would have shown the foreclosures being sold at $10k or so. The folks at PIP had a couple of potential outlets including selling to their investors and selling bundles of homes to larger firms. Every month or so I spoke with my contact there to find out if any leads were popping up that might be willing to pay enough to at least cover what I had in this deal. I had other projects going on closer to home so I let this ride for quite a while (i.e. almost a year) before I realized that I was going to have to take action myself to unload the property. Eventually I contacted local real estate agents who confirmed the $7 to $10k price points in the area. One of them sent the deal out to her investors but no bites. To not drag this out too far .. bottom line is that I sold this via a craigslist ad for $8000. By that point I felt fortunate to find anyone who wanted this property. So I lost about $18k on that deal.

On the other foreclosure things turned out a bit better but I still wound up doing more to coordinate the sale than I had expected. One thing I didn't realize about this home is that it was in a town of only about 4000 people. I took action a bit sooner on this one, also listing on craigslist. Amazingly there was someone trying to find out what was going on with that particular house who googled the address and found my ad. I wound up selling to her with owner financing (after reading up quite a bit on the Dodd-Frank implications of that). In order to make that happen I had to arrange to replace the furnace and all the plumbing. Fortunately I was able to connect with a good contractor who could take care of things at a reasonable cost. For both of these deals I had to find a lawyer in Illinois to work with on the contracts and, for this home, the financing agreement. On this deal I had a total of about $21k into it and sold it for $28k with seller financing at 8%. In a few years I plan to sell the note so the final tally won't be known til then. Between the two houses I'll lose some money but not enough to make a huge dent in my overall investing plan.

Would I do this again? Probably not, but mainly because I would prefer to focus on deals in my local area that I can go see. As you can tell from my post, most of what I wrote had to do with my own decisions and actions and not as much about what PIP did or didn't do. If you are interested in working with them just make sure you are clear about their fees, try to estimate the total cost from start to finish and plan on the whole process taking a year or so. Compare that to whatever else you could be doing with your money and do your due diligence.

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Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
10y

Yep, this has been my knock on all the "tax lien buying services" from the get go.  They say 'we have no competition on interest rates when we buy, since we buy from the county, over the counter".  Exactly, these liens "bear the maximum interest rate offered by the county" simply because None Of The Other Bidders Wanted Them, because they were useless parcels, hence they went to the county.  How is that Ever going to be a smart buying strategy?

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  • Investor · TN · Member since 2014 · 508 posts · 167 votes
    10y

    Thanks for posting @Shera Gregory.  I have been wondering about tax liens in Illinois and you improved my knowledge.

  • Investor & Rehabber · Bartlett, IL · Member since 2013 · 98 posts · 21 votes
    10y

    @Shera Gregory

    Great post. Thanks for sharing your experiences and your outcomes with tax lien investing. 

    I am looking at doing tax lien investing myself and I would definitely take your experiences in account when I do so.

    BTW, we rehab in IL. Could you please share with me the contractor that you worked with. Please PM me his contact information if you are willing to share.

  • Contractor · Romeoville, IL · Member since 2015 · 198 posts · 137 votes
    10y

    Wow thanks for sharing! If I can be of any assistance in the future in terms of repairs, please feel free to reach out :)

  • Investor · Winnipeg, Manitoba · Member since 2013 · 303 posts · 321 votes
    10y

    @Shera Gregory

    Totally agreed what you posted. I did look at their secondary lien list back around the same time you bought yours. 

    The two biggest issues I had at  that time; with the list was just like you said

    1) older & run down properties in smaller counties & 2) the acquiring cost & return ratio on secondary liens. So I passed that time. Really appreciate your follow up post. Thanks

  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    10y

    @Shera Gregory great post.  It just goes to show that tax lien investing is not as rosy a picture as often painted for investors.

  • Massage Therapist · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 613 posts · 84 votes
    10y

    @Shera Gregory thanks for sharing with us. I appreciate the attention to details that you gave us.

                                                Enjoy as you prosper.....

  • Consultant · Ball Ground, GA · Member since 2015 · 228 posts · 100 votes
    10y

    I appreciate you being so informative.     Bigger Pockets is a great community because people like you are so willing to share about not only successes but actions you would not necessarily repeat in the future.  Thanks for sharing

    Joe

  • Greg ScottPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · SE Michigan · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    10y

    @Shera Gregory

    Shera:

    Interesting to hear your story.  You mention the two groups of investors with PIP.  I happened to be in the other group seeking the "safer" returns of yield on my tax liens.

    At first I was thrilled with the tax liens that PIP purchased for me.  I had about 25% redeem in the first year, which I plowed right back into new liens.   I repeated again the next year.  What I found, however, was that redemptions taper off, and the older liens almost never get redeemed.   

    I started with just under $60K investing with this company. At first the returns were positive, but then as older liens became a larger and larger portion of my portfolio, their management fees and the fees of my self-directed IRA consumed initial profits. After about 4 years I stopped plowing any remaining redemptions back into new liens. By that time my portfolio was made up of mostly 2+ year old liens.

    Now I have $45K of liens with no activity at all in over a year.  I contacted PIP a dozen times asking what to do with these liens and if there was a way to liquidate them, even at a substantial loss on my part.   They kept saying they would get back with me but never did.   Now they just ignore me.

    Anybody considering them, my advice is to stay away.

  • Kenisha ForbesPro Member
    Professional · Ellenwood, GA · Member since 2016 · 64 posts · 18 votes
    10y

    @Shera Gregory and @Greg Scott

    Thank you both for sharing your experiences. I was looking into working with them. After Greg's share I'm not too sure. Greg do you still own the liens? Are any of them in GA? And when you say you are in the second group, is that the group that acquires the property after foreclosing on the tax lien? 

    I have a question for you guys. How much is the average starting investment to get into the tax lien game with a company like that? What are their typical fees? If you don't mind sharing.

  • Kenisha ForbesPro Member
    Professional · Ellenwood, GA · Member since 2016 · 64 posts · 18 votes
    10y

    @Shera Gregory and @Greg Scott

    Thank you both for sharing your experiences. I was looking into working with them. After Greg's share I'm not too sure. Greg do you still own the liens? Are any of them in GA? And when you say you are in the second group, is that the group that acquires the property after foreclosing on the tax lien? 

    I have a question for you guys. How much is the average starting investment to get into the tax lien game with a company like that? What are their typical fees? If you don't mind sharing.

  • Greg ScottPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · SE Michigan · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    10y

    All of my liens are in Illinois.   According to several people I have talked with since, PIP bought me liens that nobody else would touch because they were virtually guaranteed to be worthless.  They are vacant lots in the middle of nowhere.     Here is the neighborhood where I had several liens.

    https://goo.gl/maps/kRMiDRYEaPB2

    I'd happily sell my liens to you or anyone for a fraction of what I paid for them.  I asked PIP several times if they would help me do that, but as soon as I stopped investing new money, I couldn't get an email returned.

    One of the top 3 worst investments of my life.  I urge you to stay away.

  • Kenisha ForbesPro Member
    Professional · Ellenwood, GA · Member since 2016 · 64 posts · 18 votes
    10y

    @Greg Scott It seems like the PIP program is weak on the second group, the people who would like to acquire property from the Tax Lien sale. I'm not looking to acquire property that way just yet. I'm not familiar with IL. If it was GA then that would be different, I could go check the properties out. Maybe I would be interested in buying or wholesaling them or helping you find someone that can sell them for you. However; you need to get on with off loading those properties. Have you tried posting the properties or land here on bigger pockets. There may be investors that are willing to purchase them and you could possibly make money. Post them on craigslist, Biggerpockets, there are Facebook groups that you could post them in, find local wholesales or realtors to help you. I know you are bitter and I would be too. But push past that. It's time offload those properties. You can do it! As investors, we are masters of making lemons into lemonade. I have faith that with a little elbow grease you can offload those properties and maybe even make a profit. Are they all land deals or are some actual properties?

  • Greg ScottPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · SE Michigan · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    10y

    @Kenisha Forbes

    Thanks for the pep talk, but I don't think you understand the situation.

    I don't own any properties from foreclosing on tax liens.  I own the tax liens on the properties.   PIP bought them for me.  They present themselves as an expert on how to by the ideal liens to maximize your returns, but most of what they bought me was junk.

    The secondary market for tax liens is extremely limited.  The only people buying are like the ones described in this thread, who are looking to foreclose.   But what if you have a $200 lien on a piece of land worth $2000?   Would you spend $3000 to foreclose?   What if there are several other tax liens on that same property that also need to be paid off?

    Legally, there is only a small window during which you can foreclose.   If you don't foreclose, your only hope is that someone comes by within a few years and buys the property.  After that your tax liens are worthless.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Greg Scott  did not read whole thread but looks like a pump and dump business model.

  • Kenisha ForbesPro Member
    Professional · Ellenwood, GA · Member since 2016 · 64 posts · 18 votes
    10y

    @Greg Scott Okay I get you now. I thought you owned the properties. So basically the borrowers never paid the liens and redeemed their property. So you are stuck with the lien. So does the county stop paying you after the first year or redemption period? In a case where the land can be developed I think someone would foreclose for more than 3k. There is an end buyer for every deal. You just need to find them and you will. I'm believing that for you.

  • Greg ScottPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · SE Michigan · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    10y

    @Kenisha Forbes

    Yes, you are correct that the owners never paid their taxes so I own liens on their taxes and I am stuck with the lien.

    To be clear, the county never pays you interest on your liens.  If the current owner decides to pay their taxes plus penalties, that money goes to you as the lien holder.   Or, if someone buys the property they have to pay back recent liens.  Otherwise, you get NOTHING.  I have about 40 liens on various properties that have paid me nothing.

    I included a link in my prior post.  Take a look at where it is.  Most of the liens PIP bought for me are in the middle of nowhere on rural county roads.  Only a few lots have structures and many of them are rotting shacks.   Nobody is buying these to develop them.

    I have contacted other companies that specialize in Illinois tax liens and offered to sell them anything I had at pennies on the dollar.  No interest.  If anyone would want them they would.

    I'm not saying that people can't make money in tax liens.  What I am saying is I would really make sure I understand all the ins and outs, educate myself, and avoid this particular company.

  • Kenisha ForbesPro Member
    Professional · Ellenwood, GA · Member since 2016 · 64 posts · 18 votes
    10y

    @Greg Scott Wow! GA's rules are very different. In Dekalb county, the one I'm familiar with, you get 20% ROI regardless to whether the owner pays or not. At least for the first year. So you can't lose. I'm sorry about that happened to you. But I'm going to be an optimistic pest lol! Someone bought these properties/land to begin with so someone will have use for them again. One man's junk is another man's treasure. You will sell these liens and you will even profit on some. I don't know when, but you're going to come back to this post and tell me your success stories and I will be jumping for joy for you!

  • Investor · Richmond, VA · Member since 2013 · 347 posts · 191 votes
    10y

    I think there are other ways to invest in tax liens that would be much better. I feel lucky to have gotten out with "only" losing several thousand dollars. My goal was to foreclose and that's what I did, but the properties were not worth nearly enough to cover the cost of the liens, back taxes and foreclosing. One thing I didn't anticipate is that the liens are from several years ago and in the meantime no taxes are being paid. So even after I foreclosed I still had to catch up the taxes due for those in-between years. That was several thousand dollars.

    If you are just looking to do the lien side and collect interest without going to the foreclosure then heed what Greg has shared with you. He has been trying to do the same with bad results and no support from the company.

    In the past I looked at some information provided by www.taxlienlady.com and you might want to check that out. What I saw several years ago was that the old methods of buying liens via online auction weren't working anymore due to the big banks & hedge funds bidding down the interest rates just to get dibbs on the future income they could get from being first in line for the new liens. But every state is different. In any case, with the changing landscape for tax lien strategies I think even the "tax lien lady" is branching out into other strategies and I can't give you any feedback on those. Just for education could be worth a look.

    Good luck to you!!

  • Specialist · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2011 · 698 posts · 629 votes
    10y

    @Greg Scott Sorry to hear of the situation. I'm about 30 miles away from Hopkins Park and Momence. Not a lot going on there. I invest in liens in Arizona even though I live in Illinois (for now). I'll take a look at the liens you're stuck with and see if I know anybody that might be interested. My profile has my email address or PM me.

  • Real Estate Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 316 posts · 165 votes
    10y

    maybe I'm missing something but I don't see the profit margin enough for two people making any money off this strategy. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Kenisha Forbes  I not sure that's correct.. the county is not going to pay you in any state if they don't collect from the tax payer.. its the whole reason they sell the liens in the first place so they get cash flow.... to run the county...

  • Investor · Winnipeg, Manitoba · Member since 2013 · 303 posts · 321 votes
    10y

    @Kenisha Forbes

    @Jay Hinrichs is right regarding the GA county will pay you the interest. 

    if the property owner is redeeming the property; Counties are not acting as middleman, property owner/creditor will have to connect the lien holder direct & arrange for the redemption.

  • Kenisha ForbesPro Member
    Professional · Ellenwood, GA · Member since 2016 · 64 posts · 18 votes
    10y
    Jay Hinrichs and Tom Yung you guys are right. I'm not sure what I was confusing it with. Greg Scott I just listened to show 39 with Seth Williams. He flips vacant land. He may be able to purchase some of your liens or assist you with offloading some of them. I think it's worth a shot.
  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    10y

    Yep, this has been my knock on all the "tax lien buying services" from the get go.  They say 'we have no competition on interest rates when we buy, since we buy from the county, over the counter".  Exactly, these liens "bear the maximum interest rate offered by the county" simply because None Of The Other Bidders Wanted Them, because they were useless parcels, hence they went to the county.  How is that Ever going to be a smart buying strategy?

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Wayne Brooks  power of the internet and marketing and tugging at investor desire to make higher than normal rates of returns with what they perceive is little risk... it then becomes the greater fool theory who can I dump this worthless paper on.. or the worthless non buildable slivers of land I just bought liens on ...   sponsor makes money up front investor left holding the bag.. pump and dump.

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