Than Merrill legit or scam?
Real Estate Agent · Miami, FL · Member since 2016 · 11 posts · 2 votes
Than Merrill legit or scam?
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Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
9y@Raffaello Cervera - you should try Googling him. He was on a flipping show on HGTV about 10 years ago and rode that fame to a Guru program. What was being advertised is a typical Guru pitch. They give you free tickets to the first meeting. Then they spend that meeting pitching you about the second meeting which might cost a few hundred dollars. If you shell out the few hundred dollars, you get to go to the second meeting where they spend the whole time pitching the third meeting. Third meeting will be anywhere from $10K to $50K.
If you have $50K to shell out on that junk, then you might as well jump in and give it a shot at whatever it is you want to learn. Even if you lose all your money, you'll most likely have learned a lot more than had you given it to a "Guru".
112 Replies
- Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Brian Adams:
@Cody L. not understanding your post on why $300 is a limit, please explain.
It's not. I found it to be a silly request (if you read my reply you can see the sarcasm). I also don't like the whole concept of the government regulating what they consider to be an 'accredited' investor for the purpose of who you're allowed to sell various investment opportunities to. It smacks of paternalism.
- Syndicator of Large Apartment Buildings · Glen Mills, PA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
@Alvin Sylvain to be deemed an accredited investor, a person must have an annual income of $200K alone or $300K if we’re talking a married couple. They must have maintained this income level for the past years and have an expectation that it’ll continue. You can also be considered in this investor class if your net worth is above $1 million, excluding your primary residence.
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- Los Angeles · Member since 2018 · 464 posts · 471 votes8y
Originally posted by @Brian Adams:
@Alvin Sylvain to be deemed an accredited investor, a person must have an annual income of $200K alone or $300K if we’re talking a married couple.
And, uh, where this written down? Is this like a category on the 1040Investor form?
- Syndicator of Large Apartment Buildings · Glen Mills, PA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
@Alvin Sylvain the income can be proved out by a 1040 or W-2 statement and the net worth is reflected on a PFS (Personal Financial Statement) - Assets less Liabilities equals net worth.
- Los Angeles · Member since 2018 · 464 posts · 471 votes8y
Originally posted by @Brian Adams:
@Alvin Sylvain the income can be proved out by a 1040 or W-2 statement and the net worth is reflected on a PFS (Personal Financial Statement) - Assets less Liabilities equals net worth.
Yah, OK, but who said it had to be $200K to be "accredited"? I mean, like, you only make $199,900 and fifty cents, and you can't join the club?
And, probably more importantly, remembering the comment from @Justin R., why would anybody bringing home that kind of bread waste his time with Than Merrill?
- Real Estate Broker · Bakersfield, CA · Member since 2018 · 269 posts · 597 votes8y
The SEC, and federal securities law. Rule 501 of regulation D.
- Los Angeles · Member since 2018 · 464 posts · 471 votes8y
Originally posted by @Jeff C.:
The SEC, and federal securities law. Rule 501 of regulation D.
Ah, OK. It still seems to me anybody bringing home that kind of bread would laugh at $300 to be part of Than Merrill's little lecture tour -- and would probably laugh at Than Merrill!
- Real Estate Broker · Bakersfield, CA · Member since 2018 · 269 posts · 597 votes8y
Originally posted by @Alvin Sylvain:
Originally posted by @Jeff C.:
The SEC, and federal securities law. Rule 501 of regulation D.
Ah, OK. It still seems to me anybody bringing home that kind of bread would laugh at $300 to be part of Than Merrill's little lecture tour -- and would probably laugh at Than Merrill!
There are plenty of stupid people with money, believe it or not.
- Los Angeles · Member since 2018 · 464 posts · 471 votes8y
Originally posted by @Jeff C.:
Originally posted by @Alvin Sylvain:
Originally posted by @Jeff C.:
The SEC, and federal securities law. Rule 501 of regulation D.
Ah, OK. It still seems to me anybody bringing home that kind of bread would laugh at $300 to be part of Than Merrill's little lecture tour -- and would probably laugh at Than Merrill!
There are plenty of stupid people with money, believe it or not.
$200K annual income purely from investments? Heh, I wouldn't mind having a little bit of that kind of stupidity!!
- 8yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Agree with @Jeff Filali. There’s no reason to pay so much when it’s out there for free. With the amount you’d pay for one of these seminars, you could already have bought a house and begun your investing career.
I went to a Than Merrill intro seminar once just to see what it’s like. The setup is very suspect. They design the layout so that once you’re in it is very hard to exit. Several layers of people block you from leaving and they lay their pitch out hard.
The man speaking wasn’t Than, but some old salesy guy who look like he made some bad decisions in life. It was sad seeing people respond to his classic marketing calls to action....people would sensationally jump up with a handful of cash (probably all they had).
Between the plethora of podcasts, blogs, books, etc, there’s no reason to ever sign up for one of these. Way better to build your portfolio and then think about how to join a reputable mastermind group who can challenge you to expand your potential.
the set up guys are literally Hollywood actors.. end of that story. I bet they showed a picture of their family in some super nice looking rural setting and why are we doing this because Everyone wants to spend more time with their kiddos etc etc.. me personally not so much by the time they are teenagers the last thing they want is to spend time with us old duds
- Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles · Member since 2018 · 844 posts · 1k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Alvin Sylvain:
Originally posted by @Brian Adams:
@Alvin Sylvain the income can be proved out by a 1040 or W-2 statement and the net worth is reflected on a PFS (Personal Financial Statement) - Assets less Liabilities equals net worth.
Yah, OK, but who said it had to be $200K to be "accredited"? I mean, like, you only make $199,900 and fifty cents, and you can't join the club?
And, probably more importantly, remembering the comment from @Justin R., why would anybody bringing home that kind of bread waste his time with Than Merrill?
I don't know...I've seen folks with money do worse....like sell or take equity from their prime coastal properties and invest in OOS properties that cash flow well per their pro-formas but are generally occupied with tenants who have a special affinity for trashing the properties they occupy. In the meantime, they won't be able to sell these properties at their purchase price for another 15 years (or when there is another incredible run up in RE prices). But on the flip side, at least they aren't stuck with all that dreaded 'dead equity' :)
Reg D really needs to be updated, IMO. In some states, this status has lost a lot of meaning since earning 300K is pretty common. I would say that more than half the folks in my company earn well over 300K (As a back-office accountant, I'm in the bottom half). I became accredited because the value of all my SFR's in Los Angeles exploded.....would I call myself a sophisticated investor? Hell no! I'm just some fool who happened to buy a couple properties right after the great recession and just rented them out and didn't even realize till about a year ago what their values were.
- Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 210 posts · 155 votes8y
Originally posted by @Alvin Sylvain:
Originally posted by @Brian Adams:
@Alvin Sylvain to be deemed an accredited investor, a person must have an annual income of $200K alone or $300K if we’re talking a married couple.
And, uh, where this written down? Is this like a category on the 1040Investor form?
- Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
I don't think these guys are a scam. I think they are selling education, and that education comes with a pretty hefty price-tag. The 3-day was a bargain at $197. I did not buy the $35k Mastery and so can not offer an opinion on that.
This is not for everyone, and that would be one of two criticisms. They certainly pitch it is for everyone, and it might be the best sales pitch/people I have ever witnessed (lol - I learned from simply observing all of that) - be ready for that. The other criticism is they have people to help you secure credit in the back room to pay for the $35k course - I think that takes it a step too far. So, buyer beware.
As far as the content, I thought it was excellent. And, if these guys put together their education the way they put together a sales pitch, I'd bet it is excellent too (hope?). I can think of plenty of courses I have taken that were horribly presented over the years.
So, my take is in-between. I think these guys may work well for some people and the hefty price could in fact be viewed as a bargain. I also think a person could end up with nothing out of it though, that would likely be the fault of the person, not the courses. Therefore, my only criticisms are the brainwash "everyone can do it" pitch and the willingness to find credit for people. I would like these guys more if they took it down a notch and brought people in after a position of consideration and thought, rather than a position of frothing at the mouth after being brainwashed for 3 days - lol.
Final opinion and advice? Get your feet/brain wet in REI before shelling out the big bucks for education. Always do your diligence, including learning about an educational purchase!
Peace FB.
- Member since 2018 · 1 post · 4 votes8y
Well, I and my fiance - a professional and MBA respectively - went to the 2 hour then 3-day seminar curious to see what the system was and looking for a structure to emulate or even 'pseudo-franchise' as we go about learning real estate investing. Willing to pay for a proven system and mentoring. Pay, not be sold into slavery as a junior cultist being bled for all you have.
We bailed at the end of the first day of the seminar.
1. Very little actual information given, it is all setting the stage for further paid training. Lots of promises of real info on day 3. Lots of talk up front about ethics, honesty, integrity, not taking advantage of distressed sellers, etc. Reassuring initially, consider what is discussed below.
2. A whole LOT of rather poorly done enthusiasm building and offering of false hopes. A whole lot of setting the stage to steering you to their Hard Money and Private lenders (Grand Coast Capital) and even their rental property investment division Passive Income Club.
3. Clearly working the room to pre-screen for those actually able to afford the training on the spot v. those than can be hooked for partial payments and nailed for the rest later v. those that will never be able to afford the training but can be hit up for lesser programs in a few days (I overheard one person being reassured they would be offered later seminars one at a time) v. those that are time wasters.
4. The 'application' for training wants a lot of your personal information not needed for a course and a whole LOT of your financial information down to current balances and limits on bank accounts and credit cards, mortgages, HOLOC and other credit lines, friends/relatives you can borrow from... in other words any way than you can be driven to tap and max multiple sources to pay them right there.
5. Had a feel of manipulation and indoctrination into, I hesitate to say cult or well known 'religion' famous for this but they are out to get max hooks into you, get max money up front, and keep tapping you as you are cast into the 'sunk-cost' fallacy. There were few people in that room of 100 or so that can afford financially or emotionally what this looks to be costing. Standing in front looking at the class there were a few people that looked really pissed off, a few that were confused and a few that clearly were prey, victims ready for the high of buying into the dream.
6. And the best for last... the highest initial offer for training was - get this - $49,000 !!!!! Yes 49K for their turn-key system, boot-camps, periodic seminars, proprietary software, online training, 3-d simulations of home evals and costing, etc. Lesser training available at 39K and 29K. Looks like all major and worth while topics are covered and likely in decent detail... BUT $49K????? That's 2 down payments for some properties or a down and a rehab on a rental! The comment was made that's one successful deal using their methods. Sure. If it happens. Once we looked at the application, went through the Master Class very thick and slick sales packet and got some numbers out of one of the sales guys we were done.
Look, a solid comprehensive system you can step into and, with hard work and a lot of time, be successful with, would be welcome indeed especially if integrated with a real estate license program targeted at investors not retail sales. And worth spending a decent amount of money on too for people like us. I'm not interested in flailing around for 4-5 years making every mistake to be had... I want structure and mentoring to leverage my time and money to best use.
$49K for a sight unseen program that refuses to show you the very specific materials and training until you pay?
Thank you, no thank you.
Another note, the EMyth Real Estate book features these guys in chapters alternating with Gerber's more generic although valuable discussions. Some valuable generalities are given, as well as links to buy the FB software packages as stand alone deals. Little specifics. Get it from the library and skip the first half. - Derwood, MD · Member since 2018 · 21 posts · 10 votes8y
If you have $50K to dump, then you might as well join me as an apprentice. We will use the $50K to buy and flip your first three deals guarantee. That is what you call hands-on learning.
- Realtor · Charleston, SC · Member since 2016 · 229 posts · 159 votes7y
I am pretty sick and tired of hearing their radio ads also. We can get everything you're promising for free at a meet up in town. The only difference between doing it Than's way and meeting an investor for lunch is you get to keep the difference between $50000 and the cost of lunch for the investor mentor. knowledge bomb
- Rental Property Investor · Buhl Idaho · Member since 2018 · 20 posts · 12 votes7y
I would like to say how much I learned and how much I enjoyed the 2 Fortune Builders events that we attended, a 1 day and a 3 day event, very professional, very entertaining, well worth the price of entry into the events, We left the event with more information than we could have imagined, from wholesaling, to property management, and much more...
I feel like I received a tremendous value, just in the books, CD's, and DVD's, that we got to bring home, not to mention the education that we received while at the event, Shawn Mac Nicholas, I believe was our Instructor at the 3 day event, Wonderful presentation, Great guy enjoyed his program very much...
Yes I would go to another event, and Yes and would recommend family and friends, to these events Regardless of their Real Estate Knowledge, From Beginner to Broker I think everyone could learn something valuable at one of the Fortune Builders events
- Real Estate Agent · Princeton, NJ · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes7yJohn Wallace - What’s your level of experience? # of rentals / flips? I noticed that similar events didn’t give me any information I hadn’t already learned from other investor meetings (like REIA or BP). The only people buying the additional education seemed to be people who had never done it and were mystified by the black box of real estate rental/flip profits. Most of the coaches were salespeople with knowledge of how to overcome your objections and sound like they knew a lot. Many had failed / foreclosures in their past.
- Rental Property Investor · Buhl Idaho · Member since 2018 · 20 posts · 12 votes7y
Hello @Natalie Schanne I have worked in Real Estate, Property Management, Property Preservation, and Residential & Commercial inspections Since about the year 2000, We originally went to a Fortune Builders Event in Palm Springs about 5-7 years ago,(didn't Know about BP then) at the time we didn't know much about "REI" we had worked on the other side of the industry for so long it was Eye Opening, to see that with the Knowledge that we already had, how quickly we could Transition into investing for ourselves.
Fortune Builders was key in showing us many different paths we could take in the Real Estate industry, yes the one day free event is designed to pull you into the $200, 3 day event, which is designed to make you want to attend the $30k Mastery Program, Because they are a business, and ALL businesses need to make money to stay in business, Right ?
At the time we knew nothing about wholesaling, we had done a few flips of our own but didn't have the team or the strategies, or the financing, in place, to keep the ball rolling, so to speak... They helped us with all of that, The Networking opportunities at the 3 day events are worth the price of admission alone, Ran into several old friends, and made lots of new ones...
Overall we had a Great Experience at both of the Fortune Builders Event that we went to, Other people May have had Different Experiences, But the bottom line is, Don't knock it till you tried it !!!!
- South Hill, VA · Member since 2015 · 21 posts · 30 votes7y
Interesting thread. Here is my "take", for what it's worth. I have been investing in real estate successfully for almost 50 years. Never took a course - learned from my dad, who started in the Great Depression. I suspect some people can do just fine with the education they get from Merrill's FortuneBuilders. But here's the point - real estate is not brain surgery, and it should not cost as much as a college education. You can get all the education necessary for free if you want to take time and expose yourself to risk, or for a hundred dollars you can get the education, mentoring from a volunteer professional investor - everything you need. Frankly, if you have $35,000 or more to pay for Merrill's lifestyle of the rich and famous, then you probably don't need him - just use that money to buy your first property.
- Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2017 · 93 posts · 105 votes7y
I Been in the business for 40+ years.
Have talked to many of Than's students, been to his seminars...had one through the door a few weeks ago....don't know the answer,,,but I can tell you...
First spend your money to get you real estate license before you do anything.
- Specialist · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 666 votes7y
@Raffaello Cervera he has the same exact pitch on every station nationwide. IMO he is selling his crap. Stay away from " gurus". . Connect with someone that is actually doing deals, learn, and then DO THEM!! Stop reading books and going to classes, oh and stop building your " power team" Heres a crazy idea, find a deal, do not worry about selling/ flipping it, the money will find you,,,,,,,,,,, Good luck
- Rental Property Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2015 · 64 posts · 38 votes7y
Fortune Builder is legitimate business but the package is way overpriced for what they offer. All the information you need is contained in the book they give you when you take the weekend workshop for $200. You can figure the rest here on bigger pockets or there are tons of books on Amazon you can get as well.
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