Oceanpointe (and Morris Invest) Property Management Problems

Oceanpointe (and Morris Invest) Property Management Problems

Liliana RuanoPro Member
Raleigh, NC · Member since 2016 · 21 posts · 15 votes

Hi everyone,

As mentioned before on another post, my husband and I bought a property through Morris Invest back in August 2016. Everything went smoothly, and there were no issues. The only problem that we had was a lack of communication on the part of the Property Management company (Oceanpointe) that we were using based on Clayton's recommendation. The whole thing was set up sort of like a one-stop shop ... Call Clayton, he tells you about a great, completely rehabbed house that he has that he will sell to you for $40k but that he says will appraise for $60k and is renting for $700, and he has his assistant set you up with his network of people (property management and insurance). A few weeks ago, we switched management companies due to the lack of communication from Oceanpointe, and posts on Biggerpockets from other dissatisfied Oceanpointe clients. The new property management company that we went with discovered that the lease agreement provided to us by Oceanpointe might be a complete fraud. The new property management company was provided with a completely different lease agreement by the tenant than what we had been given by Oceanpointe. The "tenant's" hand writing is different, the signatures are completely different (Oceanpointe's lease agreement isn't really even signed by the tenant ... his name is just written), and the rent on the tenant's lease agreement is $350/month, instead of $700. I tried reaching out to Oceanpointe again hoping they would provide proof of payment (copy of checks, or a ledger, etc), but as usual, they have not replied to that request.

In hopes of getting this sorted out, I tried reaching out to Clayton on Jan 30th via email. Below is the email I sent. He usually replies within a day, but so far, no response. I was truly hoping I would get a response, because I don't think Clayton is a bad person, and don't think he purposely sends people toward harm, but I do think he is, perhaps, trying to move too quickly, grow too fast, and, in the process, is guiding, even encouraging his buyers to make bad decisions. For example, he implies that buyers of his houses do not need to worry about performing due diligence. We are learning as we go, and I guess we were susceptible to all of the rah rah and excitement of such exceptional investment opportunities.

At this point, we are waiting to be able to have the new management company do an inspection of the house and an appraisal to possibly off-load it. Fingers crossed that there will not be any additional bad news. I'll add updates here as our ordeal unfolds.

Anyone have similar experience with Oceanpointe's lease agreements ?

Thanks,

~Liliana

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
8y

you give Mr. Morris far to much leniency  there is no way he is not aware of every aspect of what is going on at least in my opinion..  he is the one making the claims  he needs to back them up.

I suspect based on the investor feedback some major fraud going on here with fake tenants etc. all done to prop up new sales

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Joe Ansley:

    Julian, thanks for telling us about this video. I am impressed with what the Oceanpointe lawyer said—they have offered the tenant some backups and have even formed a partnership with the hospital to help provide low income housing. Statistics tell us that you can’t expect to never have any problems. The most important thing is that you try to do something to rectify the situation—and they have.

     can you say damage control and spin doctor..  LOL.. what it he attorney going to say.. Ya my clients are not ready for prime time and are very poor operators.. and the allegations of fraud and Ponzi scheme are true you caught us.. ?

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jeff Parker:

    I have been reading all these threads about this Oceanpointe and Morris Invest issues and a couple of questions come to mind.

    1. If everything I have read in the past few days is true then why don't all of the people who have bought from MI/OP just get together and file a class action lawsuit? I am sure some lawyer would take it on. I think it would be worth millions. Especially if it's a Ponzi scheme.

    2. Has anyone bothered t take their complaints to the Attorney General on Indiana or Florida? If not, why?

    3. Jay Hinrichs seems to be in a lot of the posts that I have read. He seems to have vast knowledge of the Real Estate industry and yet people out there do not heed his advice. Why? He pretty much says not to buy this JUNK and yet people do. Junk is junk, PERIOD END OF STORY.

    4. Why hasn't anyone called out this Clayton Morris guy on his Youtube Channel? I believe that he does it live. I don't see anyone posting their complaints on there.

    5. When will this be on American Greed? 

    most of this has already happened I suspect complaints are piling up.. govmit moves very slowly..

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Brian M.:

    @Joel Owens Good points here, Joel.  However, PM companies make money in other ways as well.  They mark up everything - repair work that is done, bill payments, cleaning, evictions, etc.  In many cases, they also take a full months rent to place a tenant.

    And, let's face it, most PM's are not only in the PM business.  They usually are RE Agents, Wholesalers, flippers, etc.

     and of course with this company the most profitable way to make money as we have seen by other posters is to send rehab money and simply pocket it.. that's quite profitable.

  • Rental Property Investor · Honolulu, HAWAII (HI) · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    My take away is that your BRAND needs to be taken seriously because it can go south. Always put your investors first. It’s something I am mindful and struggle with as I do deals with only people I know like and trust. Thoughts Jay Hinrichs ?
  • Investor · Hoboken, NJ · Member since 2016 · 464 posts · 179 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Brian M.:

    @Joel Owens Good points here, Joel.  However, PM companies make money in other ways as well.  They mark up everything - repair work that is done, bill payments, cleaning, evictions, etc.  In many cases, they also take a full months rent to place a tenant.

    And, let's face it, most PM's are not only in the PM business.  They usually are RE Agents, Wholesalers, flippers, etc.

     Great point too

  • Mike D'ArrigoPro Member
    Turn key provider · San Jose, CA · Member since 2010 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    @Liliana Ruano You give far more benefit of the doubt than I would. Encouraging people not to do due diligence and telling them that they don't need to do inspections is bad business practices and is not a result of "growing too fast". There is story after story like this and all it does is give reputable turn key companies that look out for their investors a bad name. 

  • Mike D'ArrigoPro Member
    Turn key provider · San Jose, CA · Member since 2010 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Joe Ansley:

    Julian, thanks for telling us about this video. I am impressed with what the Oceanpointe lawyer said—they have offered the tenant some backups and have even formed a partnership with the hospital to help provide low income housing. Statistics tell us that you can’t expect to never have any problems. The most important thing is that you try to do something to rectify the situation—and they have.

    Joe, do you also believe the serial killers attorney when he says that his client is really a good guy and just misunderstood? As someone that is considering buying a property from them, if I were you, I would be paying more attention to what all of the people who have had terrible experiences with them have to say than what their attorney who they are paying says. What do you expect their paid attorney to say?

  • Property Management · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2015 · 111 posts · 94 votes
    8y

    We have a lot of experience with OP managed properties.  First, as a PM you can run a good business and specialize in the lower end of asset class.  I think most managers dont like to get their hands as dirty as we have to sometimes to function in that end.  If the owner and manager function on the same page about what the housing should be and quality of the tenants, it can work out for everyone.  

    But that is not really the purpose of this thread. 

    Where there is smoke, there is a huge fire and it has been burning with the MI/OP situation for sometime.  Not a week goes by that I am not talking to owners trying to figure out what to do with the poor investments they have made with MI.  They did not have to be that way but the owner trusted the people there with their money.  And in most cases their trust has been broken. 

    I can only speculate what the end game is here.  @Jay Hinrichs has seen enough I think he is likely as correct as anybody about what has been the game here.  I just want to add in that dont throw the baby out with the bath water because these lower class assets have been used as a vehicle for theft.  These C- class properties can be profitable and decent investments.  It starts though with a different approach to acquisition and management. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Atlanta Metro, GA · Member since 2017 · 62 posts · 10 votes
    8y
    Lane Kawaoka, I agree with you. Brand is important.
  • Managing Broker / Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2015 · 350 posts · 362 votes
    8y

    Hi Joe. Everybody said Bernie Madoff was a nice guy too! We have a property management company in Indianapolis and we constantly receive contacts and inquiries about Morris and Oceanpointe. We've seen first hand (multiple times) the "tenant occupied" properties that do not actually have a tenant or a tenant that is paying less then the lease amount that is presented to the owner. We have also seen some of the "rehabs" they have done. It's always bad! The owner of Oceanpointe, Bert Whalen, left me a voicemail and threatened to kill me because I did turn him in to the AG and they permanently revoked his license. It took the AG almost 2 years so they do move very slowly. If you buy from them after you've read all the threads on here then you will have no one else to blame for your results.  

  • Real Estate Consultant · Whitestown, IN · Member since 2014 · 549 posts · 933 votes
    8y

    First off, I live in Indianapolis. We have had multiple days since the middle of December with subzero weather. No heat is a health hazard and mandatory here. It is such an issue that we keep several space heaters in our office to supplement a situation until we can get it fixed and a tenant is NEVER without heat for more the 48 hours... which would be a long time for us and I have personally came out to the office after dark on a Sunday night to bring space heaters to a tenants house... and I don't even work in the property management operation... That's how serious of an issue it is to allow a tenant to go without heat. There is never any excuse for this level of management. If a tenant dies in one of your poorly managed house, attorneys will start pointing fingers at everyone... oh, and you better believe Ocean Pointe will try to point fingers at the home owners as well if they get an opportunity. There are at least 2 other good PM's on this thread alone and a turn-key provider that works with another good property manager as well and am certain that any of them will say the exact same thing regarding handling emergency situations. If you are willing to throw your money in with that kind of lot... there's no making it make sense to you. I really feel bad for the people who are getting screwed, but I can't feel bad for the ones who are still going in with open eyes.

    I have a client coming in town today from Colorado. They purchased 5 homes from OP/Morris. They have paid for the rehabs that were supposedly completed. He sent an inspector out to the property and the home has barely been touched. We will be physically driving by each property today so he can see for himself the areas and condition of homes that he has put his life savings in to. Obviously, he is scared to death, because he is not sure how much he stands to lose. He is probably going to be joining the other 2 civil plenary suits against OP and Bert Whalen. I know of at least one other person who is considering pursuing legal action as well.

    Our point is not to flame a competitor... many of us compete in the same space and have mutual respect for each other. We are not here to talk bad about people, we are here to expose risks of working with the wrong groups and being taken advantage of.

  • Walnut Creek, CA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Russell Brazil  its crazy that Morris would put himself in this situation... I suspect this does not end well for him or at least its going to cost him a bundle to stay out of trouble  :)

    Now Boarding Indy to Panama City, Panama.

  • Walnut Creek, CA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Julian Fleming:

    Liliana Ruano Joe Ansley Jay Hinrichs

    Hey all, found this video about Oceanpointe on YouTube from a local Indianapolis news channel. It’s one thing to read about these things, but to see it in video is something else. Also, at the end the reporter talks about targeting owners for accountability... Just scary all around.

    Not to mention, I feel terribly for the tenants involved!

    https://youtu.be/JXL1VdZxSLs

     same issues, and 2 years prior 

    https://www.theindychannel.com/news/call-6-investigators/call-6-homes-found-dangerous-unlivable

  • Rental Property Investor · Atlanta Metro, GA · Member since 2017 · 62 posts · 10 votes
    8y
    @Todd Burton, you can go to the Indiana Secretary of State website and search for OceanPointe. It shows the company has not had its license revoked and is still active.
  • Walnut Creek, CA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Joe Ansley:

    @Todd Burton, you can go to the Indiana Secretary of State website and search for OceanPointe. It shows the company has not had its license revoked and is still active.

     https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/92/topics/523577-oceanpointe-investments-llc

  • Managing Broker / Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2015 · 350 posts · 362 votes
    8y

    Hello Joe- I have posted a letter from the AG that says the license of the respondent, Oceanpoint, is revoked. Here it is again. I have been communicating with the Deputy AG regarding why this is not being reflected on IPL site. Regardless, Morris and Oceanpointe are not providing the products and service that people are paying for as evidenced by the many posts on here as well as the many, many people that have contacted us and other Indianapolis property managers. Also, did you just elect to avoid the fact that the owner of Oceanpointe THREATENED TO KILL ME?!? Is this someone you want to do business with? You can try to look in the cracks for something good to justify buying from them and if you do, again, it's all on you but I assure you it will not end well for you.

    The image doesn't seem to be working so here is the link (same as in post above)

  • Rental Property Investor · Atlanta Metro, GA · Member since 2017 · 62 posts · 10 votes
    8y
    Matt I just phoned the Indiana Professional Licensing Agency. It said that OceanPointe’s license has not been revoked. You or anyone else is welcome to call them to confirm this information as well.
  • Specialist · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2016 · 841 posts · 480 votes
    8y

    Always like to read guys like @Todd Burton, @Mike D'Arrigo, @Ross Denman, @Joel Wilmoth, and @Jay Hinrichs !  

    I talk to a ton of people in the Indy market and I can't tell you how many times I have been asked to look at a "C" property, we pull some numbers, walk the property and come away and say, "This is a "D-".  See it with "B"s too, when they are really "C".   @Joel Wilmoth I totally get what you are saying about throwing the baby out with the bath water.   Personally, I don't like to mess with "D's".  I do however, know people who do very well with that class of property, most of which are local and self manage, or they have someone like you who understands the nuances.  They know what they're doing with it and it works for them. 

    Too many people passing off rotten apples for oranges. I think there is something to be said for taking a stance that says, "I won't touch just any property, project, deal, or investor that comes across my path - even if it is a money maker."  Turn them down, move on.  

    Does anyone know who Morris is promoting or working with currently in this market?  Is it still Oceanpointe, or is there a different company involved now?  I suspect there will be some switch and change on this.

  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 861 posts · 1k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Joe Ansley:

    Matt I just phoned the Indiana Professional Licensing Agency. It said that OceanPointe’s license has not been revoked. You or anyone else is welcome to call them to confirm this information as well.

    I found the action against Whalen on an Indiana government website, and it does mention he was the "mananger or member of Oceanpointe." The guy's license was permanently revoked, but I guess they dont license the LLC itself in Indiana?

    To find the action saying PERMANENTLY REVOKED in big letters:

    1. Visit the "Disciplinary Actions / License Litigation website on IN.GOV  and click "Get Started", then "Begin your Search"

     I cant post links but it is this if you take out the spaces: (  https :// in.gov / pla / 3115.htm ) 

    2. Selet "Real Estate Commission" from the dropdown and hit "Search"

    3. Look for the following line (you can click the column headers to sort) 

    (note: if you dont see it go to advanced search and search on "Whalen" .. I think the above shows only the last couple months of actions)

    4. Click "Findings of Fact and Order" 

    Note that it also has some other details about the guy including some DUIs and "operating a motorboat with a suspended drivers license" and a real estate violation(s) for a trust account. 

  • Mike D'ArrigoPro Member
    Turn key provider · San Jose, CA · Member since 2010 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Joe Ansley:

    Matt I just phoned the Indiana Professional Licensing Agency. It said that OceanPointe’s license has not been revoked. You or anyone else is welcome to call them to confirm this information as well.

     Joe, have you bothered to read the court document that @todd burton has posted on here more than once? I don't know who you talked to but I have a copy of the same document that Todd has posted. There is zero doubt that OceanPointe's and Bert Whalen's license has been permanently revoked. End of story. 

  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 861 posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    Well! I searched more and did find the Indiana Online Licensing website that says Oceanpointe is still licensed... 

  • Walnut Creek, CA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    So... out of all this, even the fact that their own staff has posted on this site, NOT ONCE have they posted a copy of the license. They just said call or contact a office that no longer exists (along w/ their website).

  • Walnut Creek, CA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    Well! I searched more and did find the Indiana Online Licensing website that says Oceanpointe is still licensed... 

     From some of the other posts, I think there's been confusion of comes from the E at the end and things have been slow to update. But I am not local, nor have property w/ them so.... could be wrong.

  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 861 posts · 1k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Matt K.:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    Well! I searched more and did find the Indiana Online Licensing website that says Oceanpointe is still licensed... 

     From some of the other posts, I think there's been confusion of comes from the E at the end and things have been slow to update. But I am not local, nor have property w/ them so.... could be wrong.

    When I searched, I just searched on "Ocean" to catch either spelling, with or without spaces.  Being Indiana (nowhere near an actual ocean), there was only a small handful of businesses with a professional license with a name starting with "Ocean" and only one real estate broker, which is "Oceanpointe" 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Ritch Bonisa:

    Always like to read guys like @Todd Burton, @Mike D'Arrigo, @Ross Denman, @Joel Wilmoth, and @Jay Hinrichs !  

    I talk to a ton of people in the Indy market and I can't tell you how many times I have been asked to look at a "C" property, we pull some numbers, walk the property and come away and say, "This is a "D-".  See it with "B"s too, when they are really "C".   @Joel Wilmoth I totally get what you are saying about throwing the baby out with the bath water.   Personally, I don't like to mess with "D's".  I do however, know people who do very well with that class of property, most of which are local and self manage, or they have someone like you who understands the nuances.  They know what they're doing with it and it works for them. 

    Too many people passing off rotten apples for oranges. I think there is something to be said for taking a stance that says, "I won't touch just any property, project, deal, or investor that comes across my path - even if it is a money maker."  Turn them down, move on.  

    Does anyone know who Morris is promoting or working with currently in this market?  Is it still Oceanpointe, or is there a different company involved now?  I suspect there will be some switch and change on this.

    what I find most interesting is the pass that is given to Morris in this situation.. I know this industry.. it starts with the promotor/ that's Morris he dictates what product he is going to represent.. Ocean is obviously dissfunctional to the extreme.. but Morris is the one touting these as safe secure investments that if you buy them you will retire on cash flow.... his description of the model is just so far from reality .  Ocean is simply his stooge setting up the inventory at the price points morris wants to sell at. And if anyone is going to get their money back they need to be going after the promotor.. Ocean will BK as some point. 

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