Why do people Buy Property in California
Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
Why do people Buy Property in California
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Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
1yWhere do you think people are growing richer with real estate.....Los Angeles or Cleveland? Owning just a few typical properties in California turns you into a multimillionaire very quickly. Owning a few typical properties in Cleveland gets you an extra $500 a month.
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- 1yBruce WoodruffPro MemberContractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
Quote from @Ken M.:
Isn't this fire partially because the person in charge of the water for the fire hydrants forgot to turn the water on?Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
Whether or not this specific fire was entirely due to forest mgmt, Cali has a problem with this. They fight Federal attempts to remove old wood by suing. I know Fed people that have fought the state over this. It is fairly well known...
They are making all kinds of excuses now that they've been 'caught with their pants down'....I saw a few minutes ago that January is the month they 'test their hydrants'. I call BS.
- 1yAndre TaylorPro MemberRental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 221 posts · 181 votes
I personally think just because of the fast appreciation; being one of the biggest perks!
- Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes1y
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @David Song:
CA, especially the Bay Area and other population centers, are great investment locations. The price is much more expensive than Midwest, but the yield or cap rate, particularly commercial properties, are similar to Midwest.
SFR may have a lower cap, in good area. However, if you are willing to go to the Central Valley, the price there are not much higher than the Midwest.
I only buy in CA, only in Bay Area.
I'm not gonna say your wrong David, but everything I know and have heard says your way-wrong.
I will lend an example via data.
Here in the "Midwest" of MN, we are getting $2,500 - $3,500mnth rents on "bread & butter" SFH. The purchase cost is on average $350k - $450k. That's new built or nearly new, so we don't have to run down the rabbit hole of condition costs.
In areas of sub 3% vacancy rates. Nobody should be shocked by this or argue it, it's the reality of shortage market.
Now I go to S.CA and randomly looked up similar property rental.
I randomly got 3208 39th St, San Diego, CA 92105
It's listed rent is $3,795. Yup, a touch higher than here in the Midwest. But the kicker is it was purchased Feb 2020 for $1,078,066
That gross rent revenues too price ratio of 4.2%
Vs here in Midwest a "median" ratio of the above of 9%.
I don't know about your idea of maths but to me that says Midwest performs at 2X of CA.
Now let's talk appreciation. Which 3br+ SFH do we think has more room to appreciate? One priced at a million+ dollars, or one priced at $400k?
Now keep in mind, median household income here in MN midwest and CA is almost exactly the same, just over $100kyr. So people are making almost the same incomes, which property has more room to appreciate going forward?????
It jumps out as rather obvious to me. I don't see this CA home having a sellable market value of $2million+ dollars in coming years but I sure as heck could see that $400k MN Midwest home being $800k, or even a million.
I get CA desirability but there is a simple factor of income and affordability. A property is only worth what people can afford to pay for it.
People making $100k or even $150k a year can NOT afford to pay for a $2million dollar home. But they sure as heck could afford to pay for an $800k home.......
james I used your logic when I sold one of my homes in Palo Alta Ca. how could a 900 sq ft 3 and 1 go any higher than the 500k I sold it for in 91 ? Well last time it traded it sold for 3 mil or so.. 684 Encina Grande if you want to check it out.. now to be fair they added on to the back and added one bath so it was now a 3 and 2 :) I paid 180k for it in mid 80s huge sum then.. or at least I thought.. location location location
Wow.
And look, I don't doubt the anomaly potential, the Malibu homes etc. but point is when we get to certain price levels the price moves outside "median" purchase viability.
Because median price of housing in any market has a direct connection and correlation to median income. I mean, obvious right, people can only spend what they have.
I think every market has those luxury areas that pricing is multiples beyond what any average person in the market can afford.
A $3m purchase price home was certainly not bought by a plumber, right.
Maybe the owner of a plumbing business.
So looking at the market, as a whole, meaning considering things in a volume sense ie medians. CA is really pressing the ceiling and breaking point of affordability. Again, in general.
And if we argue that CA median household income could double, thus facilitating a significant increase to median home price. Well.... I argue how would median incomes double in CA and lay flat or significantly lag in rest of country?
As said, just as 1 example, Twin Cities MSA median household income is dang near on par with CA's. If CA median household income goes too $200k+, MN's will not sit at $110k. Especially in the new era of remote work force.
Remote work empowers a national leveling of incomes completely new and unique to anything before. And were only at the end of the beginning of it.
Does a tech firm really need to pay a CA located cpu engineer $300kyr when have national reach of hundreds/thousands equally qualified happy to do it for $200k.......
And service sector jobs and wages follow where those top-line incomes go. Plumbers lower price as clients affordability drops or else they loose market share to the plumbers who do.
Maybe I'm wrong, time will tell, but from what I see CA median housing prices in large part have "capped out". To get any significant increase in appreciation requires the catalyst of median incomes to facilitate, not just the "nice weather" or similar perceptual value factor.
- 1yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @David Song:
CA, especially the Bay Area and other population centers, are great investment locations. The price is much more expensive than Midwest, but the yield or cap rate, particularly commercial properties, are similar to Midwest.
SFR may have a lower cap, in good area. However, if you are willing to go to the Central Valley, the price there are not much higher than the Midwest.
I only buy in CA, only in Bay Area.
I'm not gonna say your wrong David, but everything I know and have heard says your way-wrong.
I will lend an example via data.
Here in the "Midwest" of MN, we are getting $2,500 - $3,500mnth rents on "bread & butter" SFH. The purchase cost is on average $350k - $450k. That's new built or nearly new, so we don't have to run down the rabbit hole of condition costs.
In areas of sub 3% vacancy rates. Nobody should be shocked by this or argue it, it's the reality of shortage market.
Now I go to S.CA and randomly looked up similar property rental.
I randomly got 3208 39th St, San Diego, CA 92105
It's listed rent is $3,795. Yup, a touch higher than here in the Midwest. But the kicker is it was purchased Feb 2020 for $1,078,066
That gross rent revenues too price ratio of 4.2%
Vs here in Midwest a "median" ratio of the above of 9%.
I don't know about your idea of maths but to me that says Midwest performs at 2X of CA.
Now let's talk appreciation. Which 3br+ SFH do we think has more room to appreciate? One priced at a million+ dollars, or one priced at $400k?
Now keep in mind, median household income here in MN midwest and CA is almost exactly the same, just over $100kyr. So people are making almost the same incomes, which property has more room to appreciate going forward?????
It jumps out as rather obvious to me. I don't see this CA home having a sellable market value of $2million+ dollars in coming years but I sure as heck could see that $400k MN Midwest home being $800k, or even a million.
I get CA desirability but there is a simple factor of income and affordability. A property is only worth what people can afford to pay for it.
People making $100k or even $150k a year can NOT afford to pay for a $2million dollar home. But they sure as heck could afford to pay for an $800k home.......
james I used your logic when I sold one of my homes in Palo Alta Ca. how could a 900 sq ft 3 and 1 go any higher than the 500k I sold it for in 91 ? Well last time it traded it sold for 3 mil or so.. 684 Encina Grande if you want to check it out.. now to be fair they added on to the back and added one bath so it was now a 3 and 2 :) I paid 180k for it in mid 80s huge sum then.. or at least I thought.. location location location
Wow.
And look, I don't doubt the anomaly potential, the Malibu homes etc. but point is when we get to certain price levels the price moves outside "median" purchase viability.
Because median price of housing in any market has a direct connection and correlation to median income. I mean, obvious right, people can only spend what they have.
I think every market has those luxury areas that pricing is multiples beyond what any average person in the market can afford.
A $3m purchase price home was certainly not bought by a plumber, right.
Maybe the owner of a plumbing business.
So looking at the market, as a whole, meaning considering things in a volume sense ie medians. CA is really pressing the ceiling and breaking point of affordability. Again, in general.
And if we argue that CA median household income could double, thus facilitating a significant increase to median home price. Well.... I argue how would median incomes double in CA and lay flat or significantly lag in rest of country?
As said, just as 1 example, Twin Cities MSA median household income is dang near on par with CA's. If CA median household income goes too $200k+, MN's will not sit at $110k. Especially in the new era of remote work force.
Remote work empowers a national leveling of incomes completely new and unique to anything before. And were only at the end of the beginning of it.
Does a tech firm really need to pay a CA located cpu engineer $300kyr when have national reach of hundreds/thousands equally qualified happy to do it for $200k.......
And service sector jobs and wages follow where those top-line incomes go. Plumbers lower price as clients affordability drops or else they loose market share to the plumbers who do.
Maybe I'm wrong, time will tell, but from what I see CA median housing prices in large part have "capped out". To get any significant increase in appreciation requires the catalyst of median incomes to facilitate, not just the "nice weather" or similar perceptual value factor.
its an interesting conversation and for sure Palo alto Cupertino and Los Altos and Los Altos hills directly benefit from 3 things. 1. Tech 2. Stanford 3. Foreign investors ( primarily Asian countries) parking money or buying a 3 mil home for the kid to live while they go to school.. My wife brokered a 6 mil house in Oregon even.. the seller was a Chinese bizzman who bought it for his 19 year old kid.. why he would need 10k plus sq ft I dont know.. But they even left the brand new most expensive BMW ( was trying to snag that :)) And my wifes client was an heiress with her trust fund and paid cash.
Lastly the other thing that keeps SF bay area going is there is not a lot of SFR rentals WAAAY less than any place in the mid west so the vast majority are owner occ.. And when one sells they may pocket 1mil and do the move up without needing a massive increase in come .
Now Socal has their other influences Entertainment and some very wealthy business owners and LOTS of them.. but same thing SFRs are not generally sold for rentals .. So cant compare investing in SFRs with CA and other parts of the country you have to compare MF and yes MF will sell for lower cap rates but still they generate positive cap rates .. Where as the SFRs are emotional roof over their head purchases they are NOT being bought for cash flow or strictly for investment although many know that appreciation has been very good to many of us native CA myself included. Literally changed my life for sure. U know you have to live somewhere and you have to play the cards your dealt so for someone who grew up in Cupertino and lived in Palo Alto then the Napa Valley you just figure out a way..
I can tell you folks in Ca are much more in-tuned to owning RE where ever it may be compared to other average folks in states were appreciation has been tame or non never really happened and I am not talking about and 80k house that 15 years later is worth 140k - Lodi, CA · Member since 2021 · 34 posts · 19 votes1y
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @Julia Hagen:
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Dan H.:
Quote from @Jonathan Small:
You've raised some valid concerns about California, and it's true that the state faces significant challenges. However, dismissing it entirely based on these issues overlooks several factors that continue to attract people and investment:
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Diverse Economy: California boasts a massive and diverse economy, far beyond just Hollywood. It's a global leader in technology (Silicon Valley), agriculture (Central Valley), international trade (ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach), and tourism. This economic strength creates job opportunities and attracts talent from around the world.
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Innovation and Entrepreneurship: California has a deeply ingrained culture of innovation and entrepreneurship. It's a hub for startups, venture capital, and cutting-edge research. This attracts ambitious individuals seeking to build the next big thing.
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World-Class Universities: California is home to some of the world's most prestigious universities, including Stanford, UC Berkeley, UCLA, and Caltech. These institutions attract top students and faculty, contributing to the state's intellectual capital and driving innovation.
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Natural Beauty and Diversity: While you mentioned the weather (which is undeniably a major draw for many), California's natural beauty extends far beyond sunny beaches. It encompasses diverse landscapes, including mountains (Sierra Nevada), forests (Redwoods), deserts (Death Valley), and national parks (Yosemite, Sequoia). This offers a wide range of outdoor activities and recreational opportunities.
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Cultural Hubs: Cities like Los Angeles and San Francisco are major cultural centers, offering world-class museums, theaters, music venues, and diverse culinary scenes. They attract artists, creatives, and people who appreciate a vibrant urban lifestyle.
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Real Estate Appreciation (Historically): @Dan H. points this out with his bathroom addition. While recent years have presented challenges, California real estate has historically seen significant appreciation, particularly in desirable coastal areas. This has made it an attractive investment for some, though high prices and increasing interest rates are currently impacting affordability.
Addressing your specific points:
- High Taxes: Yes, California has high taxes, particularly income tax. However, many high-income earners are willing to pay these taxes for the perceived benefits of living and working in California, such as access to opportunities, infrastructure, and services.
- Crime and Homelessness: These are serious issues in some parts of California, particularly in major cities. However, it's important to avoid generalizations. Crime rates vary significantly by neighborhood and city. While the homelessness crisis is a complex problem, it's not unique to California and is being addressed through various initiatives.
In summary: While California has its problems, it's not a simple case of "everything else sucks." The state's economic dynamism, natural beauty, cultural attractions, and educational institutions continue to draw people and investment. Whether these factors outweigh the challenges is a personal decision.
San diego, los angeles, and san Francisco violent crime rate is low compared to most large cities outside california. The 3 of them are below Cincinnati, cleveland, and toledo.
The lowest city on the list on wikipedia for violent crime is irvine, CA
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities...
Any violent crime is too high but i travel a bit. I feel far safer in the roughest parts of San Diego than i do in many large cities outside CA.
People seldom look at actual crime numbers. What they see is what their media presents to them. A crime in a low crime area may be media worthy but the same crime in a high crime area may be just another day.
in my neighborhood (poway), kids playing doorbell ditch or riding 3 on an electric bike warrants posting on social media and dozens of comments (no exaggeration). Must be nice that those “crimes” deserve so much attention.It is my belief that most RE investors are best served initially investing near their home. After they have some experience they can decide if other markets are likely to suit them better. I believe this is true for high price san Francisco and lower priced detroit and most markets in between.
Best wishes
San Diego, Los Angeles, and San Francisco having a lower violent crime rate than Cincinnati, Cleveland, and Toledo is not an accomplishment by any means. You are comparing 3 cities where you pay one of the highest premiums in the USA to live to 3 of the cheapest cities in the USA. This would be like me telling you my Escalade drives better than your KIA. Duhhhh, of course it does.
I am confused because here is what the data I find says:
Now I'm no expert on the topic but CA is still the only place I've ever been where people pop-out of the scrubery to ask if I want a BJ as entire family is loading back up (including grandkids) from a dinner out......
Only place I felt "safe" in CA was on base. Seems most in CA are rather desensitized to it all. That's my experiences.
MN #'s seem accurate to me. CA #'s, that's been my observation of things. OH, no idea, only ever passed through.
Ummmmmmm...I've lived in California since 1990 and own multiple investment properties there. Over the years, I've lived in South Central Los Angeles (while in design school), West Hollywood, Hollywood, downtown LA, Marina del Rey, Santa Monica, Napa, (in the Napa Valley), Angwin, (also in the Napa Valley) and I currently reside in Lodi, about 2 hours from SF. I have to ask, where did you take your family for dinner? Perhaps you should choose a restaurant in a better part of town next time. 😂 I have never even heard a joke about California that bad, haha! If you need some family-friendly dinning recommendations just ask 👍
I already said, Oceanside.
We were staying in Pendleton (yes, on-base). We WERE in the "nice area". My son-in-law took me for a drive to see the nightmare that is the bus station there, with the hobo's galore. Right off the main drag.
That kind of thing, the homeless, tent camps, there all over the place in CA. I think it's that one just get's desensitized to it over time. I saw it near every beach (except on-base), highways, urban centers throughout CA.
Maybe you don't notice it, but it's notable to others who have experienced life outside of CA and don't have CA as the singular center and whole of the universe in their mind.
I have been all over the world and tour investment markets regularly throughout the US. CA is a standout in this regard.
The only other location that compares in such is South Africa, where "shanty towns" dot the landscape.
So as a NON CA world traveler, that was the "feel" of southern CA; tons of amazing potential and weather, views etc but with 3rd world problems that seem to be accepted and ignored by all.
I was born in Toronto, Canada and grew up living in different towns throughout Ontario. I have traveled through every province in Canada. I have been to Mexico, Panama, Costa Rica the Bahamas, Hawaii etc.. etc.. Yes, homelessness is an EPIC problem in California. It is the same in Vancouver (now), Phoenix, San Francisco, and if you look for it, pretty much every major city in the US nowadays. I even have a cousin who is homeless - by choice (?!??). She switches between LA and Phoenix. I've always thought that if I was homeless I would probably choose a state where the weather wouldn't kill me, like LA. But also, the sad truth is that housing is too expensive, drugs are too addictive and adequate mental heath care is insufficient. And you are right. I live here. So I don't drive by the homeless encampments - unless I'm volunteering. I don't give out money to foster addiction, only food to fill stomachs. It is an ugly, tragic reality in California and everywhere else where it exsists.
When I moved from Canada to the US it was shocking that I had to stand in line at 5 am at the free clinic w/10 other people just to get medical care for strep throat. Some of those people had full-blown AIDS. I couldn't not understand why this great nation didn't have health care. It blew my mind but I suppose you get used to what's considered "normal".
Having actually lived in Hollywood, West Hollywood and downtown LA, your comment about the sexual nature of the assault you suffered isn't typically seen in homeless communities. Not blatantly. It's seen in the areas I just mentioned. There were always prostitutes on the corner of my street when I lived in Hollywood, but ironically, no homeless people. Male and female prostitutes and lots of drugs. So, I no longer live in those areas and am very thankful to finally have insurance.
I would never move back to Canada. I love California and the weather here. What no one has yet mentioned is the movie industry. I saw and literally ran into countless celebrities while in LA. That part of Hollywood will always have allure. I would love to explore the rest of the US - if I had the money. Who knows, maybe there is a state that can parallel the great weather in California, the five-star restaurants in Napa Valley, the geographical diversity, the rich ethnic influences, the skiing and surfing all in the same day and somehow, have no homeless people. Kind of sounds like heaven... If anyone on this site knows of a state like that please tell me. I will retire there!!!
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- We vacationed in San Diego for Thanksgiving last year and it was awesome. Highlights were the USS Midway Museum, The San Diego Zoo Safari Park and of course the beach (Encinitas). Highly recommend, and we didn’t see any camps of homeless people or anything like that (I’m sure they were there but nothing that stood out or put a damper on our visit even with young children, walking everywhere) and we stayed in Oceanside which is a lot nicer than it used to be from my memory.
Quote from @Chris Wilson:
" I literally want to vacation to San Diego"Quote from @Scott Trench:
Also, I am on a work trip to Menlo Park, CA as I write this. It's 60 degrees. Humidity is gloriously perfect. Every coffee shop and restaurant has outstanding service. Transportation options are plentiful. People seem friendly.
At home, in Denver, which I also love, it is 18 degrees. I left with a sniffle, with bleeding fingers, cracked lips, and a perpetual risk of a nosebleed in the heart of Denver winters that get so cold, my toes start to turn blue after 5 minutes outside. These problems have completely evaporated in less than 24 hours. I return to my cocktail of winter moisturizers tonight when I land in Denver.
I understand why it is more expensive here. I'm also not even in the nice part of California, much farther down South. I understand why it is extremely expensive down there too. San Diego, and the strip of California between San Diego and California, is some of the most glorious land on this Earth. And, unlike other beautiful places, like the mountains near Denver, or those in Arizona, it's always a good time to live there (at least if you like the idea of long pants and/or a jacket being truly optional). Last time I visited San Clemente, my uber driver told me that he has not had a heater or an air conditioner functioning in his home for the last 16 years, and doesn't miss it, with very rare summer exceptions.
If you have the money, I imagine it's a pretty good place to be. All the opportunity, weather, food, and culture you can ask for. I literally want to vacation to San Diego. Somehow, Southern California, at least those areas right by the coast, also escape the discomfort of a large amount of insects. Not a lot of screen doors or porches. Those are a nasty surprise whenever I go to Texas or the South (we also don't really get a ton of bugs in Denver, though they are there in the mountains).
Problems? Of course. But, maybe not so large as the people out of state like to imagine them to be. California's economy, and real estate market, ain't going anywhere.
You should vacation in San Diego, it's a beautiful place to relax. The Beaches, Bays, Parks and some stunning view points like the Cabrillo National Monument or the Mount Soledad Cross. I grew up there and still go back there just to vacation sometimes. - Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes1y
Quote from @Steve K.:
We vacationed in San Diego for Thanksgiving last year and it was awesome. Highlights were the USS Midway Museum, The San Diego Zoo Safari Park and of course the beach (Encinitas). Highly recommend, and we didn’t see any camps of homeless people or anything like that (I’m sure they were there but nothing that stood out or put a damper on our visit even with young children, walking everywhere) and we stayed in Oceanside which is a lot nicer than it used to be from my memory.Quote from @Chris Wilson:
" I literally want to vacation to San Diego"Quote from @Scott Trench:
Also, I am on a work trip to Menlo Park, CA as I write this. It's 60 degrees. Humidity is gloriously perfect. Every coffee shop and restaurant has outstanding service. Transportation options are plentiful. People seem friendly.
At home, in Denver, which I also love, it is 18 degrees. I left with a sniffle, with bleeding fingers, cracked lips, and a perpetual risk of a nosebleed in the heart of Denver winters that get so cold, my toes start to turn blue after 5 minutes outside. These problems have completely evaporated in less than 24 hours. I return to my cocktail of winter moisturizers tonight when I land in Denver.
I understand why it is more expensive here. I'm also not even in the nice part of California, much farther down South. I understand why it is extremely expensive down there too. San Diego, and the strip of California between San Diego and California, is some of the most glorious land on this Earth. And, unlike other beautiful places, like the mountains near Denver, or those in Arizona, it's always a good time to live there (at least if you like the idea of long pants and/or a jacket being truly optional). Last time I visited San Clemente, my uber driver told me that he has not had a heater or an air conditioner functioning in his home for the last 16 years, and doesn't miss it, with very rare summer exceptions.
If you have the money, I imagine it's a pretty good place to be. All the opportunity, weather, food, and culture you can ask for. I literally want to vacation to San Diego. Somehow, Southern California, at least those areas right by the coast, also escape the discomfort of a large amount of insects. Not a lot of screen doors or porches. Those are a nasty surprise whenever I go to Texas or the South (we also don't really get a ton of bugs in Denver, though they are there in the mountains).
Problems? Of course. But, maybe not so large as the people out of state like to imagine them to be. California's economy, and real estate market, ain't going anywhere.
You should vacation in San Diego, it's a beautiful place to relax. The Beaches, Bays, Parks and some stunning view points like the Cabrillo National Monument or the Mount Soledad Cross. I grew up there and still go back there just to vacation sometimes.This is where I'm supposed to make the snarky comment of if a person has there nose high enough in the air of course they don't notice the hobo's all around em, lol.
But seriously, I don't know how a person doesn't notice it at countless highway sides in the bushes, underpasses, here there n all over. You see it all over the place, maybe not 100 together but 1 here, 3 there, oh-look there's another up in the bushes off the beach.....
I mean hey, the weather is conducive for it vs say Ohio right. But still, I have never seen anything like it in FL, Carolinas, Georgia..... Sure some, nothing like what I've seen in CA.
- Come to think of it, we did see a few homeless people and even (gasp) smelled some weed in the parking lot at Buccaneer Park, I just don’t get my panties all in a bunch when I see a few homeless people. I grew up in a rough hood so a couple hobo hippy types smoking weed at a surf beach isn’t something I get all scared and uptight about like maybe you do. There have always been homeless people all along the coast in CA, it’s got a lot of benefits if you’re homeless apparently. Oceanside used to be real rough from what I remember years ago, now it is mostly gentrified and property values are going crazy. The owner of the STR where we stayed said they just bought a few years prior and the value has already doubled to around $2.5M, a few blocks in from the beach. If you haven’t seem homeless people in FL, the Carolinas and Georgia you’re looking in the wrong places. There are super poor areas in all of those states too and plenty of homeless there too. I was in Fort Myers not long ago and saw plenty in the middle of town, much worse than in Oceanside.
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @Steve K.:
We vacationed in San Diego for Thanksgiving last year and it was awesome. Highlights were the USS Midway Museum, The San Diego Zoo Safari Park and of course the beach (Encinitas). Highly recommend, and we didn’t see any camps of homeless people or anything like that (I’m sure they were there but nothing that stood out or put a damper on our visit even with young children, walking everywhere) and we stayed in Oceanside which is a lot nicer than it used to be from my memory.Quote from @Chris Wilson:
" I literally want to vacation to San Diego"Quote from @Scott Trench:
Also, I am on a work trip to Menlo Park, CA as I write this. It's 60 degrees. Humidity is gloriously perfect. Every coffee shop and restaurant has outstanding service. Transportation options are plentiful. People seem friendly.
At home, in Denver, which I also love, it is 18 degrees. I left with a sniffle, with bleeding fingers, cracked lips, and a perpetual risk of a nosebleed in the heart of Denver winters that get so cold, my toes start to turn blue after 5 minutes outside. These problems have completely evaporated in less than 24 hours. I return to my cocktail of winter moisturizers tonight when I land in Denver.
I understand why it is more expensive here. I'm also not even in the nice part of California, much farther down South. I understand why it is extremely expensive down there too. San Diego, and the strip of California between San Diego and California, is some of the most glorious land on this Earth. And, unlike other beautiful places, like the mountains near Denver, or those in Arizona, it's always a good time to live there (at least if you like the idea of long pants and/or a jacket being truly optional). Last time I visited San Clemente, my uber driver told me that he has not had a heater or an air conditioner functioning in his home for the last 16 years, and doesn't miss it, with very rare summer exceptions.
If you have the money, I imagine it's a pretty good place to be. All the opportunity, weather, food, and culture you can ask for. I literally want to vacation to San Diego. Somehow, Southern California, at least those areas right by the coast, also escape the discomfort of a large amount of insects. Not a lot of screen doors or porches. Those are a nasty surprise whenever I go to Texas or the South (we also don't really get a ton of bugs in Denver, though they are there in the mountains).
Problems? Of course. But, maybe not so large as the people out of state like to imagine them to be. California's economy, and real estate market, ain't going anywhere.
You should vacation in San Diego, it's a beautiful place to relax. The Beaches, Bays, Parks and some stunning view points like the Cabrillo National Monument or the Mount Soledad Cross. I grew up there and still go back there just to vacation sometimes.This is where I'm supposed to make the snarky comment of if a person has there nose high enough in the air of course they don't notice the hobo's all around em, lol.
But seriously, I don't know how a person doesn't notice it at countless highway sides in the bushes, underpasses, here there n all over. You see it all over the place, maybe not 100 together but 1 here, 3 there, oh-look there's another up in the bushes off the beach.....
I mean hey, the weather is conducive for it vs say Ohio right. But still, I have never seen anything like it in FL, Carolinas, Georgia..... Sure some, nothing like what I've seen in CA.
- Coupeville, WA · Member since 2016 · 93 posts · 73 votes1y
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
Well, no one else has mentioned it, so I will......what about the current LA fires and the ongoing mis-managment of the forest and brush? A lot of people in the current fire area had their insurance canceled lately and are really screwed, Reminds me of Florida and the insurance problem caused by the hurricanes.
also thing of the Lahina fire on Maui there was no forest there freak down slope winds and buildings that were built with very dry timber with no fire protection in mind.. this stuff happens.If were gonna use fires as a measure of "good" or "bad" than Canada is hell and most of the country should evacuate because holly-heck do they have fires galore.
Fact is our human spawl has gotten to a point that we build in volume in places that are catastrophe prone. For some reason we human love to try fighting nature, thinking we can "tame" it, despite failing a whole lot at it.
We decided hurricane lane FL was a great place to build metropolis and than cry every time it's damaged. We build in fire cycle prone areas and lament when a fire happens.
Not to mention our building standards remain for most part that of colonial times, why, who knows, we just don't like to embrace brick block and cement for some reason and prefer sticks still.
Hell, even the Amish look at our construction methods and chuckle.
Take a look at the CA building codes including for earthquakes and local cities can have their own as well. I mean it's CA for heaven sake :) By the way our most recent couch purchase was a lovely piece of furniture built by the Amish. https://ssc.ca.gov/forms_pubs/hog/
- Coupeville, WA · Member since 2016 · 93 posts · 73 votes1y
Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
Whether or not this specific fire was entirely due to forest mgmt, Cali has a problem with this. They fight Federal attempts to remove old wood by suing. I know Fed people that have fought the state over this. It is fairly well known...
CA has been known as the land of fires, floods and earthquakes for as long as I have been alive.
- 1yPeter StewartBusiness MemberReal Estate Broker · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2018 · 160 posts · 168 votes
As someone who lived in Los Angeles for 12 years, was a RE broker for 6 there, works with TONS of CA clients, has plenty of friends and family up and down the coast, and owns and has owned rental properties there, I can answer this for you.
#1 - You are parroting MSM talking points about how "bad" it is there without actually having any real knowledge of the situation (at least that's what I gather from the post). In reality, you're only seeing a small sliver of what life is actually like there. You are reading the 1 horror story about a crazy tenant that the owner could not evict for a year, and missing the 10,000 other positive stories.
Now, don't get me wrong - CA definitely has its issues, but it's not like every block in CA is full of drug addicted sidewalk pooping landlord scamming thieves. Most of CA is very nice and life is very "normal".
People invest in CA for many reasons. It is a gorgeous state. The weather is awesome. The food is amazing. The culture is amazing. It's an economic powerhouse. It's a global destination and a world famous city. And boy can appreciation be amazing.
However, investing there today looks a lot different than it did years ago. Cash flow through long term rentals is pretty much gone. Your main two plays are appreciation or development (build new construction, condo conversion, etc). The price to play is very steep, so it's not for beginners or those with limited capital. The market is also pretty volatile, so if you play the short game, you can get burned badly.
- 1yBruce WoodruffPro MemberContractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
Of course there are few if any homeless in Encinitas or the average street corner throughout this huge county...but just go downtown and drive around. You people that don't see the huge number of homeless in Cali just do not want to see them because it hurts your narrative. CA has more than half of the nations homeless/unsheltered persons.
I went to a Padres game just a few months ago (Sept) and was stunned at the large number of people laying around on the sidewalks (and the stench) in what is a fairly nice part of town. Compare that to Phoenix where I had been to a game just one month earlier. On a 5 block walk to get to Chase Field, there was exactly ONE possibly 'homeless person' and he was playing the guitar for everyone.
- 1yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Quote from @Julia Hagen:
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @Julia Hagen:
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Dan H.:
Quote from @Jonathan Small:
You've raised some valid concerns about California, and it's true that the state faces significant challenges. However, dismissing it entirely based on these issues overlooks several factors that continue to attract people and investment:
-
Diverse Economy: California boasts a massive and diverse economy, far beyond just Hollywood. It's a global leader in technology (Silicon Valley), agriculture (Central Valley), international trade (ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach), and tourism. This economic strength creates job opportunities and attracts talent from around the world.
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Innovation and Entrepreneurship: California has a deeply ingrained culture of innovation and entrepreneurship. It's a hub for startups, venture capital, and cutting-edge research. This attracts ambitious individuals seeking to build the next big thing.
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World-Class Universities: California is home to some of the world's most prestigious universities, including Stanford, UC Berkeley, UCLA, and Caltech. These institutions attract top students and faculty, contributing to the state's intellectual capital and driving innovation.
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Natural Beauty and Diversity: While you mentioned the weather (which is undeniably a major draw for many), California's natural beauty extends far beyond sunny beaches. It encompasses diverse landscapes, including mountains (Sierra Nevada), forests (Redwoods), deserts (Death Valley), and national parks (Yosemite, Sequoia). This offers a wide range of outdoor activities and recreational opportunities.
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Cultural Hubs: Cities like Los Angeles and San Francisco are major cultural centers, offering world-class museums, theaters, music venues, and diverse culinary scenes. They attract artists, creatives, and people who appreciate a vibrant urban lifestyle.
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Real Estate Appreciation (Historically): @Dan H. points this out with his bathroom addition. While recent years have presented challenges, California real estate has historically seen significant appreciation, particularly in desirable coastal areas. This has made it an attractive investment for some, though high prices and increasing interest rates are currently impacting affordability.
Addressing your specific points:
- High Taxes: Yes, California has high taxes, particularly income tax. However, many high-income earners are willing to pay these taxes for the perceived benefits of living and working in California, such as access to opportunities, infrastructure, and services.
- Crime and Homelessness: These are serious issues in some parts of California, particularly in major cities. However, it's important to avoid generalizations. Crime rates vary significantly by neighborhood and city. While the homelessness crisis is a complex problem, it's not unique to California and is being addressed through various initiatives.
In summary: While California has its problems, it's not a simple case of "everything else sucks." The state's economic dynamism, natural beauty, cultural attractions, and educational institutions continue to draw people and investment. Whether these factors outweigh the challenges is a personal decision.
San diego, los angeles, and san Francisco violent crime rate is low compared to most large cities outside california. The 3 of them are below Cincinnati, cleveland, and toledo.
The lowest city on the list on wikipedia for violent crime is irvine, CA
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities...
Any violent crime is too high but i travel a bit. I feel far safer in the roughest parts of San Diego than i do in many large cities outside CA.
People seldom look at actual crime numbers. What they see is what their media presents to them. A crime in a low crime area may be media worthy but the same crime in a high crime area may be just another day.
in my neighborhood (poway), kids playing doorbell ditch or riding 3 on an electric bike warrants posting on social media and dozens of comments (no exaggeration). Must be nice that those “crimes” deserve so much attention.It is my belief that most RE investors are best served initially investing near their home. After they have some experience they can decide if other markets are likely to suit them better. I believe this is true for high price san Francisco and lower priced detroit and most markets in between.
Best wishes
San Diego, Los Angeles, and San Francisco having a lower violent crime rate than Cincinnati, Cleveland, and Toledo is not an accomplishment by any means. You are comparing 3 cities where you pay one of the highest premiums in the USA to live to 3 of the cheapest cities in the USA. This would be like me telling you my Escalade drives better than your KIA. Duhhhh, of course it does.
I am confused because here is what the data I find says:
Now I'm no expert on the topic but CA is still the only place I've ever been where people pop-out of the scrubery to ask if I want a BJ as entire family is loading back up (including grandkids) from a dinner out......
Only place I felt "safe" in CA was on base. Seems most in CA are rather desensitized to it all. That's my experiences.
MN #'s seem accurate to me. CA #'s, that's been my observation of things. OH, no idea, only ever passed through.
Ummmmmmm...I've lived in California since 1990 and own multiple investment properties there. Over the years, I've lived in South Central Los Angeles (while in design school), West Hollywood, Hollywood, downtown LA, Marina del Rey, Santa Monica, Napa, (in the Napa Valley), Angwin, (also in the Napa Valley) and I currently reside in Lodi, about 2 hours from SF. I have to ask, where did you take your family for dinner? Perhaps you should choose a restaurant in a better part of town next time. 😂 I have never even heard a joke about California that bad, haha! If you need some family-friendly dinning recommendations just ask 👍
I already said, Oceanside.
We were staying in Pendleton (yes, on-base). We WERE in the "nice area". My son-in-law took me for a drive to see the nightmare that is the bus station there, with the hobo's galore. Right off the main drag.
That kind of thing, the homeless, tent camps, there all over the place in CA. I think it's that one just get's desensitized to it over time. I saw it near every beach (except on-base), highways, urban centers throughout CA.
Maybe you don't notice it, but it's notable to others who have experienced life outside of CA and don't have CA as the singular center and whole of the universe in their mind.
I have been all over the world and tour investment markets regularly throughout the US. CA is a standout in this regard.
The only other location that compares in such is South Africa, where "shanty towns" dot the landscape.
So as a NON CA world traveler, that was the "feel" of southern CA; tons of amazing potential and weather, views etc but with 3rd world problems that seem to be accepted and ignored by all.
I was born in Toronto, Canada and grew up living in different towns throughout Ontario. I have traveled through every province in Canada. I have been to Mexico, Panama, Costa Rica the Bahamas, Hawaii etc.. etc.. Yes, homelessness is an EPIC problem in California. It is the same in Vancouver (now), Phoenix, San Francisco, and if you look for it, pretty much every major city in the US nowadays. I even have a cousin who is homeless - by choice (?!??). She switches between LA and Phoenix. I've always thought that if I was homeless I would probably choose a state where the weather wouldn't kill me, like LA. But also, the sad truth is that housing is too expensive, drugs are too addictive and adequate mental heath care is insufficient. And you are right. I live here. So I don't drive by the homeless encampments - unless I'm volunteering. I don't give out money to foster addiction, only food to fill stomachs. It is an ugly, tragic reality in California and everywhere else where it exsists.
When I moved from Canada to the US it was shocking that I had to stand in line at 5 am at the free clinic w/10 other people just to get medical care for strep throat. Some of those people had full-blown AIDS. I couldn't not understand why this great nation didn't have health care. It blew my mind but I suppose you get used to what's considered "normal".
Having actually lived in Hollywood, West Hollywood and downtown LA, your comment about the sexual nature of the assault you suffered isn't typically seen in homeless communities. Not blatantly. It's seen in the areas I just mentioned. There were always prostitutes on the corner of my street when I lived in Hollywood, but ironically, no homeless people. Male and female prostitutes and lots of drugs. So, I no longer live in those areas and am very thankful to finally have insurance.
I would never move back to Canada. I love California and the weather here. What no one has yet mentioned is the movie industry. I saw and literally ran into countless celebrities while in LA. That part of Hollywood will always have allure. I would love to explore the rest of the US - if I had the money. Who knows, maybe there is a state that can parallel the great weather in California, the five-star restaurants in Napa Valley, the geographical diversity, the rich ethnic influences, the skiing and surfing all in the same day and somehow, have no homeless people. Kind of sounds like heaven... If anyone on this site knows of a state like that please tell me. I will retire there!!!
Hawaii has a very large homeless population.. Although when I take my morning walks I snap a few photos to show friends they are much tidier than mainland homeless MUCH.. but they are all over Honolulu and the Park across from Ala Moana shopping center.. so you have 5 mil condos and homeless.. and then every day there are 5 to 10 wedding photo shoots ( young Japanese couples) where the homeless are camped out. There is no solving it.. back in the day the homeless were on the rails and where called Hobo's its a culture for many and now with drugs the way they are its gotten worse .. then add in all the people trying to help them and enable them to be homeless never going to change.. cant give free food and clothing out to people that dont want to work they will just keep doing what they need to do to live and basically its a very lazy way to live. -
- 1yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @Steve K.:
We vacationed in San Diego for Thanksgiving last year and it was awesome. Highlights were the USS Midway Museum, The San Diego Zoo Safari Park and of course the beach (Encinitas). Highly recommend, and we didn’t see any camps of homeless people or anything like that (I’m sure they were there but nothing that stood out or put a damper on our visit even with young children, walking everywhere) and we stayed in Oceanside which is a lot nicer than it used to be from my memory.Quote from @Chris Wilson:
" I literally want to vacation to San Diego"Quote from @Scott Trench:
Also, I am on a work trip to Menlo Park, CA as I write this. It's 60 degrees. Humidity is gloriously perfect. Every coffee shop and restaurant has outstanding service. Transportation options are plentiful. People seem friendly.
At home, in Denver, which I also love, it is 18 degrees. I left with a sniffle, with bleeding fingers, cracked lips, and a perpetual risk of a nosebleed in the heart of Denver winters that get so cold, my toes start to turn blue after 5 minutes outside. These problems have completely evaporated in less than 24 hours. I return to my cocktail of winter moisturizers tonight when I land in Denver.
I understand why it is more expensive here. I'm also not even in the nice part of California, much farther down South. I understand why it is extremely expensive down there too. San Diego, and the strip of California between San Diego and California, is some of the most glorious land on this Earth. And, unlike other beautiful places, like the mountains near Denver, or those in Arizona, it's always a good time to live there (at least if you like the idea of long pants and/or a jacket being truly optional). Last time I visited San Clemente, my uber driver told me that he has not had a heater or an air conditioner functioning in his home for the last 16 years, and doesn't miss it, with very rare summer exceptions.
If you have the money, I imagine it's a pretty good place to be. All the opportunity, weather, food, and culture you can ask for. I literally want to vacation to San Diego. Somehow, Southern California, at least those areas right by the coast, also escape the discomfort of a large amount of insects. Not a lot of screen doors or porches. Those are a nasty surprise whenever I go to Texas or the South (we also don't really get a ton of bugs in Denver, though they are there in the mountains).
Problems? Of course. But, maybe not so large as the people out of state like to imagine them to be. California's economy, and real estate market, ain't going anywhere.
You should vacation in San Diego, it's a beautiful place to relax. The Beaches, Bays, Parks and some stunning view points like the Cabrillo National Monument or the Mount Soledad Cross. I grew up there and still go back there just to vacation sometimes.This is where I'm supposed to make the snarky comment of if a person has there nose high enough in the air of course they don't notice the hobo's all around em, lol.
But seriously, I don't know how a person doesn't notice it at countless highway sides in the bushes, underpasses, here there n all over. You see it all over the place, maybe not 100 together but 1 here, 3 there, oh-look there's another up in the bushes off the beach.....
I mean hey, the weather is conducive for it vs say Ohio right. But still, I have never seen anything like it in FL, Carolinas, Georgia..... Sure some, nothing like what I've seen in CA.
its one thing I noticed when I am in Charleston SC inspecting my new builds there is very few if any homeless or pan handlers in Charleston proper.. It is noticeable compared to PDX SEA LA SF Vegas etc. I think it has to do with enforcing the law and not enabling folks to be homeless by providing free everything like what happens in the cities with large pop of homeless. Just talk to any cop in any big city with these issues. @Jay Hinrichs @James Hamling interesting conversation. I don't own property in CA, but I've traveled the state extensively. A couple thoughts:
1. Although CA's median income may be similar to some midwest states like MN, CA's AVERAGE income is higher than most states. Why is this important? Because the median is not as affected by outliers (extremely high or low earners), whereas the average IS very affected by outliers. CA has a higher AVERAGE income than most states because it has more high outliers (people who are very high earners) than most states--obviously, those are the people who buy the most expensive properties, and those are the people who affect CA's RE market ceiling. In other words, CA has a higher ceiling than most states partly because there are more very high earners in CA than in most other states. In fact, many of the highest earners in the world move to CA, partly because CA is one of the largest and most advanced economies in the world (and this is generally not true of most other states).
2. When we're talking about appreciation in CA, we're really only talking about appreciation in the cities (esp SF, LA, SD), and not in the rural areas of CA. As @Jay Hinrichs has mentioned, properties in rural parts of CA are often relatively similar in cost to other comparable rural parts of the US. Many of CA's cities have some unique traits that drive appreciation, that most other cities don't have...one trait being: natural barriers/restrictions on supply. SF is a peninsula surrounded by water. LA has the ocean on one side, and extremely rugged mountains on the other. SD is similar. These natural barriers limit supply, especially the supply of the most desirable lots (the most desirable lots tend to be oceanside and/or have an incredible view, and there are only so many of those lots available). This pushes up the market's ceiling even further. By contrast, many midwest cities don't have these types of natural restrictions on the supply of prime lots.
So, those are two important factors that should be considered when discussing CA's appreciation, and where the ceiling may be...
Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
Of course there are few if any homeless in Encinitas or the average street corner throughout this huge county...but just go downtown and drive around. You people that don't see the huge number of homeless in Cali just do not want to see them because it hurts your narrative. CA has more than half of the nations homeless/unsheltered persons.
I went to a Padres game just a few months ago (Sept) and was stunned at the large number of people laying around on the sidewalks (and the stench) in what is a fairly nice part of town. Compare that to Phoenix where I had been to a game just one month earlier. On a 5 block walk to get to Chase Field, there was exactly ONE possibly 'homeless person' and he was playing the guitar for everyone.
There were tons of homeless people when I lived in Tucson. I lived right in the 4th Avenue district and there were tweakers and gutter punks everywhere even back then, just as bad as anywhere I've been in CA. I've heard it's much worse in that area now. It's a systemic, nationwide problem not just a CA problem.
- Real Estate Broker · CA · Member since 2024 · 60 posts · 42 votes1y
I have always lived in California. It's the Golden City - beautiful beaches, Hollywood Glamor, it's the SUN, SAND, SURF AND MOUNTAINS --- that WEST COAST Vibe!
You can go to the BEACH in the morning, SKI in the evening and go MOUNTAIN HIKING all day long --- We get it all - but with that comes the fires, floods, winds & yes - don't let that song fool you that IT NEVER RAINS IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA - it RAINS here!
It's all apart of being a CALIFORNIAN - We have always bounced back --- but this time it feels different!
- Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes1y
Quote from @Chris Wilson:
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
Well, no one else has mentioned it, so I will......what about the current LA fires and the ongoing mis-managment of the forest and brush? A lot of people in the current fire area had their insurance canceled lately and are really screwed, Reminds me of Florida and the insurance problem caused by the hurricanes.
also thing of the Lahina fire on Maui there was no forest there freak down slope winds and buildings that were built with very dry timber with no fire protection in mind.. this stuff happens.If were gonna use fires as a measure of "good" or "bad" than Canada is hell and most of the country should evacuate because holly-heck do they have fires galore.
Fact is our human spawl has gotten to a point that we build in volume in places that are catastrophe prone. For some reason we human love to try fighting nature, thinking we can "tame" it, despite failing a whole lot at it.
We decided hurricane lane FL was a great place to build metropolis and than cry every time it's damaged. We build in fire cycle prone areas and lament when a fire happens.
Not to mention our building standards remain for most part that of colonial times, why, who knows, we just don't like to embrace brick block and cement for some reason and prefer sticks still.
Hell, even the Amish look at our construction methods and chuckle.
Take a look at the CA building codes including for earthquakes and local cities can have their own as well. I mean it's CA for heaven sake :) By the way our most recent couch purchase was a lovely piece of furniture built by the Amish. https://ssc.ca.gov/forms_pubs/hog/
Are you saying the earthquake stuff is the reasoning for the timber construction vs masonry?
But look at the commercial structures, there masonry are they not.
I actually do a fair bit of commerce with the Amish on a somewhat regular basis. Everything they do is quality. But they are savvy business people too, some of the best negotiators I've ever meet. At least the Amish here.
- Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes1y
Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
Of course there are few if any homeless in Encinitas or the average street corner throughout this huge county...but just go downtown and drive around. You people that don't see the huge number of homeless in Cali just do not want to see them because it hurts your narrative. CA has more than half of the nations homeless/unsheltered persons.
I went to a Padres game just a few months ago (Sept) and was stunned at the large number of people laying around on the sidewalks (and the stench) in what is a fairly nice part of town. Compare that to Phoenix where I had been to a game just one month earlier. On a 5 block walk to get to Chase Field, there was exactly ONE possibly 'homeless person' and he was playing the guitar for everyone.
100%, this has been my experience.
I don't speak of it to slander CA, I am not bias in any direction, it's just the truth of my experiences in CA. And seems people get very defensive if speak to such.
And of those most defensive, I often found, have limited or no experience outside CA but are quick to make claims of what rest of country/world is like vs CA.
For me, that was my #1 negative factor about CA as a market, the resistance and denial to face the realities. Because the 1st step to addressing any issue is first admitting and knowing you have one.
CA is arguably #1 in the USA by a long shot for resource-potential-of-awesomeness. This is all the great things people call out; beaches, mountains, swim in morning and ski at evening. I mean, it's a long list of 'wow".
But when ignore serious issues, they get worse. And CA seems to have been a proficient expert at denial. Hence the list of rather uglies that tarnish what is really awesome underneath.
I mean look at it this way; remove the entertainment industry, say it collectively relocates to Nashville, what would happen?
Yeah, things would decline a hell of a lot.
But still, CA still has a long list of "awesome" with that removed. But that 1 item, it would, it would take a very big bite out of things.
That is far more fragile than it should be for a market.
If CA splits into 2 states, which long has been a concerted effort to do and dang near happened most recently, oh-man S.Cal is in trouble because it's 80% expenditures and 20% revenues I have read.
Again, way more fragile than it should be.
Tech is still wicked strong in CA but, that's being challenged now in a way never before, and getting some traction. Where it goes, we will have to see.
Headquartering business in CA has tarnished, and too is being assaulted like never before, and gaining traction. Again, CA is not at "risk" in that arena in my opinion but certainly it is under assault and seems to be doing next to nothing about it. That's not often a recipe for success in retention.
Is CA in decline, no I don't think so. But is it under assault 10-fold from ever before for decline, heck-yeah.
How will it all play out?
Look, I am a minimalist, I like simplicity and bring things down to there simplest denominator. Many of the things that made CA the titan have changed, CA does not have exclusivity on it as before. CA acts in a neglectful arrogant manner, assume historical greatness will automatically deliver future greatness. This has been the downfall of many.
I see many warning signals that if CA doesn't get it's act together, act as if it has to compete, very strong chances it will suffer the historical consequences of that and CA the titan will become history not current state of things.
I think it requires some "black-swans" to get us there but hey, that's my take, who knows, I also thought shopping online was dumb back when, lol.
Hence my take on CA; pricing is way too high and margins way too tight for the risk at playing the loooong game because I simply don't have faith in CA's actions, or better said inactions, for the loooong game.
- Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes1y
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Julia Hagen:
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @Julia Hagen:
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Dan H.:
Quote from @Jonathan Small:
You've raised some valid concerns about California, and it's true that the state faces significant challenges. However, dismissing it entirely based on these issues overlooks several factors that continue to attract people and investment:
-
Diverse Economy: California boasts a massive and diverse economy, far beyond just Hollywood. It's a global leader in technology (Silicon Valley), agriculture (Central Valley), international trade (ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach), and tourism. This economic strength creates job opportunities and attracts talent from around the world.
-
Innovation and Entrepreneurship: California has a deeply ingrained culture of innovation and entrepreneurship. It's a hub for startups, venture capital, and cutting-edge research. This attracts ambitious individuals seeking to build the next big thing.
-
World-Class Universities: California is home to some of the world's most prestigious universities, including Stanford, UC Berkeley, UCLA, and Caltech. These institutions attract top students and faculty, contributing to the state's intellectual capital and driving innovation.
-
Natural Beauty and Diversity: While you mentioned the weather (which is undeniably a major draw for many), California's natural beauty extends far beyond sunny beaches. It encompasses diverse landscapes, including mountains (Sierra Nevada), forests (Redwoods), deserts (Death Valley), and national parks (Yosemite, Sequoia). This offers a wide range of outdoor activities and recreational opportunities.
-
Cultural Hubs: Cities like Los Angeles and San Francisco are major cultural centers, offering world-class museums, theaters, music venues, and diverse culinary scenes. They attract artists, creatives, and people who appreciate a vibrant urban lifestyle.
-
Real Estate Appreciation (Historically): @Dan H. points this out with his bathroom addition. While recent years have presented challenges, California real estate has historically seen significant appreciation, particularly in desirable coastal areas. This has made it an attractive investment for some, though high prices and increasing interest rates are currently impacting affordability.
Addressing your specific points:
- High Taxes: Yes, California has high taxes, particularly income tax. However, many high-income earners are willing to pay these taxes for the perceived benefits of living and working in California, such as access to opportunities, infrastructure, and services.
- Crime and Homelessness: These are serious issues in some parts of California, particularly in major cities. However, it's important to avoid generalizations. Crime rates vary significantly by neighborhood and city. While the homelessness crisis is a complex problem, it's not unique to California and is being addressed through various initiatives.
In summary: While California has its problems, it's not a simple case of "everything else sucks." The state's economic dynamism, natural beauty, cultural attractions, and educational institutions continue to draw people and investment. Whether these factors outweigh the challenges is a personal decision.
San diego, los angeles, and san Francisco violent crime rate is low compared to most large cities outside california. The 3 of them are below Cincinnati, cleveland, and toledo.
The lowest city on the list on wikipedia for violent crime is irvine, CA
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities...
Any violent crime is too high but i travel a bit. I feel far safer in the roughest parts of San Diego than i do in many large cities outside CA.
People seldom look at actual crime numbers. What they see is what their media presents to them. A crime in a low crime area may be media worthy but the same crime in a high crime area may be just another day.
in my neighborhood (poway), kids playing doorbell ditch or riding 3 on an electric bike warrants posting on social media and dozens of comments (no exaggeration). Must be nice that those “crimes” deserve so much attention.It is my belief that most RE investors are best served initially investing near their home. After they have some experience they can decide if other markets are likely to suit them better. I believe this is true for high price san Francisco and lower priced detroit and most markets in between.
Best wishes
San Diego, Los Angeles, and San Francisco having a lower violent crime rate than Cincinnati, Cleveland, and Toledo is not an accomplishment by any means. You are comparing 3 cities where you pay one of the highest premiums in the USA to live to 3 of the cheapest cities in the USA. This would be like me telling you my Escalade drives better than your KIA. Duhhhh, of course it does.
I am confused because here is what the data I find says:
Now I'm no expert on the topic but CA is still the only place I've ever been where people pop-out of the scrubery to ask if I want a BJ as entire family is loading back up (including grandkids) from a dinner out......
Only place I felt "safe" in CA was on base. Seems most in CA are rather desensitized to it all. That's my experiences.
MN #'s seem accurate to me. CA #'s, that's been my observation of things. OH, no idea, only ever passed through.
Ummmmmmm...I've lived in California since 1990 and own multiple investment properties there. Over the years, I've lived in South Central Los Angeles (while in design school), West Hollywood, Hollywood, downtown LA, Marina del Rey, Santa Monica, Napa, (in the Napa Valley), Angwin, (also in the Napa Valley) and I currently reside in Lodi, about 2 hours from SF. I have to ask, where did you take your family for dinner? Perhaps you should choose a restaurant in a better part of town next time. 😂 I have never even heard a joke about California that bad, haha! If you need some family-friendly dinning recommendations just ask 👍
I already said, Oceanside.
We were staying in Pendleton (yes, on-base). We WERE in the "nice area". My son-in-law took me for a drive to see the nightmare that is the bus station there, with the hobo's galore. Right off the main drag.
That kind of thing, the homeless, tent camps, there all over the place in CA. I think it's that one just get's desensitized to it over time. I saw it near every beach (except on-base), highways, urban centers throughout CA.
Maybe you don't notice it, but it's notable to others who have experienced life outside of CA and don't have CA as the singular center and whole of the universe in their mind.
I have been all over the world and tour investment markets regularly throughout the US. CA is a standout in this regard.
The only other location that compares in such is South Africa, where "shanty towns" dot the landscape.
So as a NON CA world traveler, that was the "feel" of southern CA; tons of amazing potential and weather, views etc but with 3rd world problems that seem to be accepted and ignored by all.
I was born in Toronto, Canada and grew up living in different towns throughout Ontario. I have traveled through every province in Canada. I have been to Mexico, Panama, Costa Rica the Bahamas, Hawaii etc.. etc.. Yes, homelessness is an EPIC problem in California. It is the same in Vancouver (now), Phoenix, San Francisco, and if you look for it, pretty much every major city in the US nowadays. I even have a cousin who is homeless - by choice (?!??). She switches between LA and Phoenix. I've always thought that if I was homeless I would probably choose a state where the weather wouldn't kill me, like LA. But also, the sad truth is that housing is too expensive, drugs are too addictive and adequate mental heath care is insufficient. And you are right. I live here. So I don't drive by the homeless encampments - unless I'm volunteering. I don't give out money to foster addiction, only food to fill stomachs. It is an ugly, tragic reality in California and everywhere else where it exsists.
When I moved from Canada to the US it was shocking that I had to stand in line at 5 am at the free clinic w/10 other people just to get medical care for strep throat. Some of those people had full-blown AIDS. I couldn't not understand why this great nation didn't have health care. It blew my mind but I suppose you get used to what's considered "normal".
Having actually lived in Hollywood, West Hollywood and downtown LA, your comment about the sexual nature of the assault you suffered isn't typically seen in homeless communities. Not blatantly. It's seen in the areas I just mentioned. There were always prostitutes on the corner of my street when I lived in Hollywood, but ironically, no homeless people. Male and female prostitutes and lots of drugs. So, I no longer live in those areas and am very thankful to finally have insurance.
I would never move back to Canada. I love California and the weather here. What no one has yet mentioned is the movie industry. I saw and literally ran into countless celebrities while in LA. That part of Hollywood will always have allure. I would love to explore the rest of the US - if I had the money. Who knows, maybe there is a state that can parallel the great weather in California, the five-star restaurants in Napa Valley, the geographical diversity, the rich ethnic influences, the skiing and surfing all in the same day and somehow, have no homeless people. Kind of sounds like heaven... If anyone on this site knows of a state like that please tell me. I will retire there!!!
Hawaii has a very large homeless population.. Although when I take my morning walks I snap a few photos to show friends they are much tidier than mainland homeless MUCH.. but they are all over Honolulu and the Park across from Ala Moana shopping center.. so you have 5 mil condos and homeless.. and then every day there are 5 to 10 wedding photo shoots ( young Japanese couples) where the homeless are camped out. There is no solving it.. back in the day the homeless were on the rails and where called Hobo's its a culture for many and now with drugs the way they are its gotten worse .. then add in all the people trying to help them and enable them to be homeless never going to change.. cant give free food and clothing out to people that dont want to work they will just keep doing what they need to do to live and basically its a very lazy way to live.Our nation and leaders have forgotten the truth as old as time:
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day.
Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime!
We need to get back to teaching vs giving. Giving is not charity, it's a sentence. Teaching is empowerment.
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- Coupeville, WA · Member since 2016 · 93 posts · 73 votes1y
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @Chris Wilson:
Quote from @James Hamling:
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
Well, no one else has mentioned it, so I will......what about the current LA fires and the ongoing mis-managment of the forest and brush? A lot of people in the current fire area had their insurance canceled lately and are really screwed, Reminds me of Florida and the insurance problem caused by the hurricanes.
also thing of the Lahina fire on Maui there was no forest there freak down slope winds and buildings that were built with very dry timber with no fire protection in mind.. this stuff happens.If were gonna use fires as a measure of "good" or "bad" than Canada is hell and most of the country should evacuate because holly-heck do they have fires galore.
Fact is our human spawl has gotten to a point that we build in volume in places that are catastrophe prone. For some reason we human love to try fighting nature, thinking we can "tame" it, despite failing a whole lot at it.
We decided hurricane lane FL was a great place to build metropolis and than cry every time it's damaged. We build in fire cycle prone areas and lament when a fire happens.
Not to mention our building standards remain for most part that of colonial times, why, who knows, we just don't like to embrace brick block and cement for some reason and prefer sticks still.
Hell, even the Amish look at our construction methods and chuckle.
Take a look at the CA building codes including for earthquakes and local cities can have their own as well. I mean it's CA for heaven sake :) By the way our most recent couch purchase was a lovely piece of furniture built by the Amish. https://ssc.ca.gov/forms_pubs/hog/
Are you saying the earthquake stuff is the reasoning for the timber construction vs masonry?
But look at the commercial structures, there masonry are they not.
I actually do a fair bit of commerce with the Amish on a somewhat regular basis. Everything they do is quality. But they are savvy business people too, some of the best negotiators I've ever meet. At least the Amish here.
No that is not what I am saying. It was more generally targeted at the comment about building standards. CA has those up the Wazoo for things like earthquakes and fire prevention for examples. Builders for a long time avoided building brick structures in areas of CA because of earthquakes and opted for more resilient to shaking materials like wood. A bend don't break approach that is still favored across a variety of materials used including steel reenforced masonry. It's more about saving life's than buildings in general. If your house breaks you can fix it, if you get crushed your house doesn't matter as much anymore.
We still very much love our Smith Brothers couch and you could be right about the Amish being good business people because it sure wasn't cheap :)
- Coupeville, WA · Member since 2016 · 93 posts · 73 votes1y
Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
Of course there are few if any homeless in Encinitas or the average street corner throughout this huge county...but just go downtown and drive around. You people that don't see the huge number of homeless in Cali just do not want to see them because it hurts your narrative. CA has more than half of the nations homeless/unsheltered persons.
I went to a Padres game just a few months ago (Sept) and was stunned at the large number of people laying around on the sidewalks (and the stench) in what is a fairly nice part of town. Compare that to Phoenix where I had been to a game just one month earlier. On a 5 block walk to get to Chase Field, there was exactly ONE possibly 'homeless person' and he was playing the guitar for everyone.
Yes it very much depends on where you go in a major city for the most part. I will stay down in the Pacific Beach/Mission Beach area when we visit San Diego. When I was young South Mission was considered an unsafe area, it's multi million $ properties now. One place I have stayed a couple of times at you can look out the window see the Ocean and the beach and the cops moving the homeless away from the grass and benches there. San Diego polices those tourist beach areas hard, they groom the sand to deal with the kelp and anything else that shouldn't be there. I have been going to Phoenix for maybe 12 years for Spring Training and see tent encampments under the overpasses. We stayed downtown one time and I was stunned to see armed guards in a CVS like pharmacy and in a grocery store a few miles away. The ballparks though are generally better areas and you don't see that kind of stuff. Never had any of that in areas like Scottsdale either.
- 1yBruce WoodruffPro MemberContractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votesPhoenix police moved the homeless out over the last year or so. I do not see them downtown anymore. Not sure where they moved them. Back in the day in San Diego, the Police just used to pick up homeless and drop them off further east.
Quote from @Chris Wilson:
Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
Of course there are few if any homeless in Encinitas or the average street corner throughout this huge county...but just go downtown and drive around. You people that don't see the huge number of homeless in Cali just do not want to see them because it hurts your narrative. CA has more than half of the nations homeless/unsheltered persons.
I went to a Padres game just a few months ago (Sept) and was stunned at the large number of people laying around on the sidewalks (and the stench) in what is a fairly nice part of town. Compare that to Phoenix where I had been to a game just one month earlier. On a 5 block walk to get to Chase Field, there was exactly ONE possibly 'homeless person' and he was playing the guitar for everyone.
Yes it very much depends on where you go in a major city for the most part. I will stay down in the Pacific Beach/Mission Beach area when we visit San Diego. When I was young South Mission was considered an unsafe area, it's multi million $ properties now. One place I have stayed a couple of times at you can look out the window see the Ocean and the beach and the cops moving the homeless away from the grass and benches there. San Diego polices those tourist beach areas hard, they groom the sand to deal with the kelp and anything else that shouldn't be there. I have been going to Phoenix for maybe 12 years for Spring Training and see tent encampments under the overpasses. We stayed downtown one time and I was stunned to see armed guards in a CVS like pharmacy and in a grocery store a few miles away. The ballparks though are generally better areas and you don't see that kind of stuff. Never had any of that in areas like Scottsdale either.
But yeah, it depends where you look. Definitely way more in good ole Cali though...the numbers don't lie. - 1yBruce WoodruffPro MemberContractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votesSure they are everywhere. But 51% of all homeless and 'unsheltered' in the entire country are in Cali...just numbers.
Quote from @Steve K.:
Not sure about Tucson, but PHX was court-ordered to removed thousand(s) from the downtown area. Much better now.
So it is indeed a national problem, but is just much worse in Cali. - Investor · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2014 · 15 posts · 3 votes1y
I love LA. Lived there 22 years. I've been bicoastal for 9 and own and live part-time in Buffalo, NY. Even with changes in LA. It is by far my favorite place and I would not think to live anywhere else except for short respites to experience other life. LA has incredible food, incredible locales and is an excellent lesson in getting ahead of the rat race. After all, it has been about the 5th largest economy in the world. Many people I know who leave do so because they have lived here so long they want to exercise other things while others leave for family reasons. Many are sad to go or miss being here. I also meet alot of people in my line(s) of work and this seems to check out in my conversations with them, this includes natives, recent transplants, old transplants, every age group and race. And like other places, many people who leave, come right back finding they had better lives here.
In addition, in all the years I've been here, people who leave are only repaced with new people coming. The constant assault on the film industry is unprecedented so only time will tell how that pans out for the population. My guess is that LA will eventually be less creative people, particularly in that field as more industries move in and less actors move over here in the first place or must spend more time on sets away from here, discouraging the need for housing here as well.
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