Help! How to buy from deceased owner (and can't find heirs)

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Help! How to buy from deceased owner (and can't find heirs)

Michael M.
Greenville, SC · Member since 2014 · 26 posts · 11 votes
Greetings all! I'm newer to wholesaling and have been "all in" for about the last 4 months or so, trying to get a first few deals going. I've consulted this forum many times on other issues, but can't seem to figure this one out!I've found myself an interesting lead but can't seem to find a solution. Here is the situation:

--Abandoned, vacant, SFR in Lakewood (Jefferson County), Colorado

--2 years of tax liens against property--owned by a company in NY State. The lien holder can apply for a treasurer's deed at 3 years so the clock is ticking!

--no foreclosure records (indicating lack of mortgage)

--Owner of Record as shown by Jeffco is deceased, but no probate proceedings have begun (no heirs have come forward, etc). I did a free trial on "archives.com" and got the date of death, but little other info.

--Skip Trace (find the seller.com) could not find any living relatives

So the question is: how can I acquire this property? Is there a way to create an interest and foreclose outside of the tax liens (ethically)? If so, and if a lawyer is required, does anyone have a recommendation?
If I cannot find heirs, it seems my best bet may be to attempt to buy the tax liens from the existing holders (could be a tough sell if they are savvy to the situation). If I DO find heirs, then what? Do I just tell them to call the probate office at the county and I'll buy it from them when it transfers? I am completely ignorant on how probate works...

Please let me know if you have any thoughts or experiences that may help.


Thanks,

Michael McLeish, manager
MMC Home Solutions, LLC
1Reply
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Most Popular Reply

Wayne Brooks
Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
12y

Why would you possibly think you could "create an interest and then foreclosure"? You think there is some maneuver so people can go around and steal other people's property? Really?

4Reply
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  • Wayne Brooks
    Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    12y

    Why would you possibly think you could "create an interest and then foreclosure"? You think there is some maneuver so people can go around and steal other people's property? Really?

    4Reply
  • Jay Neil
    Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2013 · 85 posts · 18 votes
    12y

    @Michael M. In Probate, there has to be a will. If there is no will in place an heir can apply for the title through probate court. This can be a long process before the title can be administered. Once the Title of the estate is in legal possession of the heir you would be able to work your offer. Again probate is a long process, and if there is no heir immediately evident, I would just chill on this one. I am not an expert either so this is a technical deal you are trying to work. I hope you stick around on BP and let us know how this works out for you. This is an interesting angle that I am also curious about because Probate IS my niche. Hopefully an "OG" will post on this topic so we can learn about this together!

    0Reply
  • Matt C.
    Rental Property Investor · Jupiter, FL · Member since 2013 · 48 posts · 18 votes
    12y

    I have come across similar situations trying to track down current owners of mineral interest for an Oil & Gas Lease. Juli Claussen is a “search specialist” that I have used to find people. She isn’t a skip tracer, rather more of a genealogy type researcher. She has been able to find someone I could contact. It may be a child, aunt, cousin but she has always found somebody for me. If she doesn’t find somebody she doesn’t charge. I forget what her rates are but I remember that they seemed appropriate. Her contact info:

    2Reply
  • Michael M.
    OP
    Greenville, SC · Member since 2014 · 26 posts · 11 votes
    12y

    Wayne,

    No. Not really. I just want to know what all my options are. Maybe my statement is worded wrong and obviously struck a nerve with you. I simply ask as I don't know if there is a something simple (and ethical as I mentioned in the original post) process that is out there for buying a property that has been abandoned for 2 years.

    I know you don't know me and I haven't been around long, but I don't need to be accused of trying to "steal" something from someone else. I want to do nothing of that sort...

    3Reply
  • Michael M.
    OP
    Greenville, SC · Member since 2014 · 26 posts · 11 votes
    12y

    Hi Jay. Thanks for the advice. I've been scratching my head on this one for the last 2 months. I'll just keep pinging it from time to time to see if there are changes/updates.

    Hi Matt - thanks for the contact! That sounds like a good person to start with in helping me search (provided it isn't too cost prohibitive on my wimpy budget!). I'll give her a call!

    0Reply
  • Wayne Brooks
    Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    12y

    Michael,

    Good. Yeh, struck a nerve as I see many trying to swindle/scam owners. Did you try all the neighbors? Usually somebody knows of a relative, friends, etc.

    1Reply
  • Dennis Lanni
    Investor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2012 · 144 posts · 65 votes
    12y

    You have a few options, here are some of the straight forword options:

    Find an heir

    Open up probate yourself

    Adverse possession

    You should start by getting a title report along with the document images (look to see where the mail is was going). Neighbors can be helpful too.

    Good luck

    0Reply
  • Jay Neil
    Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2013 · 85 posts · 18 votes
    12y

    @Dennis Lanni

    What is the adverse possession options?

    0Reply
  • Dennis Lanni
    Investor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2012 · 144 posts · 65 votes
    12y

    Read this link about adverse possession.

    http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/adverse-possession-trespassers-become-owners-46934.html

    1Reply
  • Dwight Williams
    Residential Real Estate Broker · Hampton, KY · Member since 2013 · 5 posts · 4 votes
    12y

    Go to the county attorney in the county that the property is located and they can advise you how to go about aquiring the property. In most states, when there is no will and no one comes forward to claim it the State is the owner. You will have to buy the back taxes from the company that bought them. I have ran into the same situation. My Uncle had passed away and I thought that he had willed it to some relative. I was looking at the paper one day and there was his name for back taxes. All I had to do was pay the back taxes + interest to the company that bought them and then buy the 3rd year taxes when due and foreclose on it. That was one way, the other way was, to come forth as a relative and claim the property. I still would have to pay the back taxes. In most States if you buy the taxes from the county/state for 3 yrs. the property is yours.

    Caution!!! there are people and companies that make a good living buying back taxes and foreclosing. I have done that some in the past, but it is a hassle and a lot of paperwork. What you will find is mostly run down property not worth much. You have to watch your investment and make sure the property is worth the time and money. Then, there are local lawyers laying- in -wait watching the same property. It can be a good investment even if the property is claimed while you have the back taxes paid, because you can get your investment back with a good interest rate (12% in most states) plus certian fees to boot, even if someone claims it. Buying back taxes can be a good investment, but a lot of competition from big companies. Taxes are usually bid (sold) on at the courthouse door on a certian day each year, like an auction. Remember that local laywer??? He's working for the big company that is buying those taxes. But watch what you are doing and you can come out on top.

    3Reply
  • Wayne Brooks
    Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    12y

    Forget adverse possession for acquiring a property you want...it's a delusion.

    3Reply
  • Stephen S.
    Wholesaler · Holiday, FL · Member since 2013 · 571 posts · 221 votes
    12y
    Most tax lien investors want the interest on the lien and not the property. If it were me I would call the lien holders and ask if they would be interested in selling them to me at the present seasoned face value. If they declined I would then offer a premium.

    If I could buy the tax liens I would then foreclose as soon as it was legally possible. So far as I know a tax lien is superior all other claims.







    Originally posted by @Michael M.:
    Greetings all! I'm newer to wholesaling and have been "all in" for about the last 4 months or so, trying to get a first few deals going. I've consulted this forum many times on other issues, but can't seem to figure this one out!I've found myself an interesting lead but can't seem to find a solution. Here is the situation:

    --Abandoned, vacant, SFR in Lakewood (Jefferson County), Colorado

    --2 years of tax liens against property--owned by a company in NY State. The lien holder can apply for a treasurer's deed at 3 years so the clock is ticking!

    --no foreclosure records (indicating lack of mortgage)

    --Owner of Record as shown by Jeffco is deceased, but no probate proceedings have begun (no heirs have come forward, etc). I did a free trial on "archives.com" and got the date of death, but little other info.

    --Skip Trace (find the seller.com) could not find any living relatives

    So the question is: how can I acquire this property? Is there a way to create an interest and foreclose outside of the tax liens (ethically)? If so, and if a lawyer is required, does anyone have a recommendation?

    If I cannot find heirs, it seems my best bet may be to attempt to buy the tax liens from the existing holders (could be a tough sell if they are savvy to the situation).

    If I DO find heirs, then what? Do I just tell them to call the probate office at the county and I'll buy it from them when it transfers? I am completely ignorant on how probate works...

    Please let me know if you have any thoughts or experiences that may help.


    Thanks,

    Michael McLeish, manager
    MMC Home Solutions, LLC

    0Reply
  • Frank Chirkinian
    Real Estate Investor · Boca Raton, FL · Member since 2013 · 42 posts · 23 votes
    12y

    I'd have to agree that adverse possession is an illusion. I don't believe we've had one case here in Florida where that strategy was used to take possession of a property. You've got to show you've cared for the property and lived there for many years before the courts will recognize you. A squatter in a million dollar waterfront home tried to use that strategy to delay eviction here a couple of years ago. They finally arrested him and threw his stuff out on the street.

    1Reply
  • Dennis Lanni
    Investor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2012 · 144 posts · 65 votes
    12y

    Wow adverse possession is getting a tough rap here. I just looked up the Florida case, that's good stuff, only in America. Also I looked up & read that @ 16 adverse possession lawsuits were filed in 2013 in Florida. Adverse possession is not quick or easy acquisition method (takes 5 yrs. years in California) & is a last resort but it can work. Just trying spice up the post here, was annoyed at how Wayne jumped on the original poster. Knowledge is power in this business and yes adverse possession, in my opinion rides the line between stealing property in a legal way.

    0Reply
  • Wayne Brooks
    Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    12y

    I'll stand by my views on "creating an interest (assuming one doesn't already exist), then foreclosing". No judgments on adverse possessions, they are perfectly suitable and proper for their original intent. Aside from that, the requirements, time periods and actions required, then it passing muster in front of a judge, seem futile.

    0Reply
  • Michael M.
    OP
    Greenville, SC · Member since 2014 · 26 posts · 11 votes
    12y

    Everyone - thank you for your helpful responses! Sorry I don't get online to this forum daily, so please forgive my delayed reply!

    Here are my courses of action as I see it now:
    1. Get an O&E with doc images
    2. Keep pursuing potential heirs (I think I may have one more potential sibling of the deceased to try)
    3. Contact Tax Lien Holder and offer to buy for current interest owed.
    4. Contact neighbors and inquire
    5. Rinse and repeat 2-4

    Nothing is for sure, but I don't think Adverse Possession is for me in this case.

    The property is about an hour drive from me, so I can't make neighbors a first priority until I can get up there for other issues. One of my potential sellers lives near there, so it may come sooner than later when I can get up there.

    Even if the property is a complete junker, it is worth it in this market in Denver--especially come spring time. I picked one heck of a hard time to learn real estate investing. But if I can get good at this now...

    I'll keep you posted on progress if/when it comes.

    Thanks again!

    This is a

    0Reply
  • David Krulac
    Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Dennis Lanni

    Adverse Possession is not easy. Many of the AP cases involve a few feet at the boundary of one owner and the next. Your fence is on my property or your hedge row is on my property type situations. Besides the four requirements for adverse possession, there is the time factor. In CA it is only 5 years to claim AP, but in other states it is much higher. Here in PA it is 21 years and I think in LA (the state not the city) it is 30 years. In Costa Rica its 6 MONTHS, and causes all kinds of title issue problems there.

    Here vacant land is the most difficult to claim AP, because you have to fence it off as the AP claimer and excluded everybody else from using it including the owner or any other trespasser or AP claimer. That's the exclusive provision of the 4 requirements.

    Hunting for owners and heirs used to be easier. We could go to the post office and get new addresses. We could go to the Dept of Transportation and get copies of anybodies Drivers License. We used to be able to go to the Bureau of Vital Statistic and get birth and death certificates. No more, due to stalking many sources of information have been closed.

    Where has come in handy is for properties bought at tax sale where the TS deed is imperfect and the former owner is deceased, or missing. One of the cures for that imperfection is to wait the 21 years and claim AP to remove any possible claim by the former owner or an heir.

    0Reply
  • Rick H.
    Lender · Greater LA/Orange County area, CA · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    The original post was about 'what to do' however it morphed into a limited discussion about adverse possession. I suggest that a new thread be created if you guys want to discuss AP and I'll share you all you want to know about the 7 or 8 AP deals that I've been involved with.

    As for @Michael McLeish's comment that you "...picked a heck of a hard time to learn real estate investing..."

    Just what time did you think would be better?

    1Reply
  • Michael M.
    OP
    Greenville, SC · Member since 2014 · 26 posts · 11 votes
    12y

    Hi Rick -

    Great question! I know the way of thinking should be "the best time is now!" BUT given some of the stories of the local folks that have really made it, many got started around 2002. It is easy to look back at past conditions and know what worked after the fact.

    Truth be told, we have a unique situation with record low inventories coupled with record low interest rates here in Denver--I do think we are in for season of unheard of opportunity (I just don't know what they look like yet!). Just can't necessarily go by the way everyone "used to do it".

    2014 is going to be a good year!

    0Reply
  • Michael M.
    OP
    Greenville, SC · Member since 2014 · 26 posts · 11 votes
    12y

    So, here is a question (especially for those in the know for Colorado laws):

    Lets say I pay the $$ for an investigator to find heirs--and they find one or more. Then what? Do I simply tell them to contact the county probate office because they have a house to inherit and then I'll buy it from them???

    I'm assuming there is a more elegant way to approach potential heirs in such a way that it is a win for them and a win for me as an investor.

    Anyone have ideas/experiences with this? Probate is still a mystery to me in general, let alone approaching "missing" heirs...

    0Reply
  • Cassie Kitch
    Property Manager · Fort Wayne, IN · Member since 2016 · 5 posts · 0 votes
    10y

    I am currently in a similar situation.  I have two condo units that were declared abandoned by the estate of the owner.  No heir wanted them and they are sitting empty and will for another 2 years until tax sale.  Would like to figure out how to acquire them in order to sell them or get one for my daughter in college.   I contacted estate attorney and he said he nor the family have any interest in the properties and he couldnt help me.  Any ideas?  Could I take estate paperwork and clear title to assessors office and pay the minimal taxes owed?  Help?

    0Reply
  • David Krulac
    Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Cassie Kitch

    Why are the estate owners abandoning the condos?  Is there lots of debt on the property and it has negative value?  Is it in very rough condition?  What would be repair costs?  Is there a mold, asbestos, environmental problem?

    I would do the following:

    1.  Determine the debt situation, do a title search and find out if there are any unrecorded debts like welfare, nursing home, mechanics liens.  Do a complete full title search.

    2.  Find out the physical condition of the condos and any issues.

    3.  I'd ask the estate attorney why the estate is abandoning the property.

    4.  If the title is clear and there are no physical issues, then I'd contact the heirs directly and offer them THOUSANDS of dollars for a deed.  Then record the deeds and the condos are your.

    0Reply
  • Cassie Kitch
    Property Manager · Fort Wayne, IN · Member since 2016 · 5 posts · 0 votes
    10y

    These are lower priced condos and are apartment like.  I am the property manager for the entire association and there are liens that were placed for delinquent dues (which we will never get). The condos have been winterized and do need some work.  The final heir and executrix wanted nothing to do with them because liens for dues were close to what they are worth and then repairs.  My interest is acquiring/cleaning/flipping so that they do not sit vacant for next 2 years until tax sale.  

    0Reply
  • Rick H.
    Lender · Greater LA/Orange County area, CA · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Cassie Kitch Welcome to the BP forum community. 

    If you check the dates of prior posts you'll see that this is an older, perhaps stale thread. You might want to start an entirely new thread. Of course, this would be after completing your profile and uploading your face pic sho you are recognizable.

    As for you "opportunity" you have limited options. 

    Using the ADE (Asset-Debt-Equity) model, you have no one with standing currently to sell you the asset. 

    If there's secured debt, you could, in theory, buy the mortgage (if any) and foreclose, but that's unlikely to play out fir a newbie.

    You could put money, time and effort into identifying, locating and signing up heirs. I've done the play many, many times (in addition to the first two). Few will spend the money for skip tracers or even PI's, especially with no guarantee that you can get them signed up to your proposed deal. However, those who DO go to the trouble and expense and can tolerate the risk, like @Dennis Lanni and myself, make money.

    Good luck.

    0Reply
  • David Krulac
    Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Cassie Kitch

    So the dues are close to what they are worth AND they need repairs also.  So where is the profit?  If there is no money in the deal, why pursue it?  Are you doing charity work here?

    @Rick H.

    Here in PA there is a state inheritance tax, starting at dollar one.  I came across a property and checked the will and the estate listed the value of the property at zero.  They were abandoning the property, stopped paying the taxes and were letting it go to tax sale.  I was the only bidder at tax sale and got the property.  There were six heirs, who didn't get along with each other.  I got 5 of the heirs to sign 5 individual quit claim deeds for free.  the six one held out for a payment. 

    0Reply
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