Wholesaling business is for dishonest, crooks?

Wholesaling business is for dishonest, crooks?

Investor · Wood Dale, IL · Member since 2014 · 65 posts · 3 votes

My subject is not direct, but a legitimate question.

I recently got a prime follow up call for a prospect that could absolutely be wholesaled. Upon making an offer and coming to negotiating terms with the seller, I needed to find an attorney who is familiar with how wholesaling works. After reading a response to a forum posted by @Tyler O'Malley, apparently all RE attorneys are familiar with wholesaling or are able/willing to work with you. This is not the case at all. After several phone calls with attorneys, I have not gotten one single attorney who wants to deal with wholesaling because it is a "dishonest" thing to have the seller under the impression that YOU are going to close on the property and/or it is a waste of their time because "most of the time these assignments of contracts never work out". After giving it some serious thought, it does seem pretty dishonest to mislead the seller into believing YOU are going to close on the property and then worst case scenario ending up voiding it all together through a "weasel clause" and wasting everyones time. My question is can anyone convince me this is not a dishonest business and also is it possible to find an attorney willing to work with you without actually being dishonest with him too.

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Real Estate Broker · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
11y

These bash the wholesaler threads get pretty old. May not be your intention but I guarantee 9/10 people reading your title will come here to do that. There is a difference between tying up a property for months hoping you find a buyer and being a wholesaler. 

As a wholesaler (a term I don't mind calling myself) I provide a service. The property closes one way or another. I have private investors, a portfolio lender, HML, and cash. I make offers that are a great deal for me to PERSONALLY close on. If however I can make cash and not have to do anything.... Why wouldn't I?

Seller receives FULL upfront disclosure. I am buying your house for X because it needs Y. I work with other investors as well. I'm sure you don't care who's name is on the check as long as it clears right? 

I have NEVER used a "weasel" clause to "get out" of a contract. I have several buyers that come back to me for repeat deals, sellers send me referrals, and my clients love me. 

I have moved trap houses, homes with flooded basements, foundations that look like tectonic plates shifting, even one with mold/bug issues. Could the seller have sold the property without me???

Maybe. A solid majority of the sellers I talk to tried with no success. 

I may transition into "wholetaling" actually closing on everything and listing on MLS. I typically double close. I don't like assignments.

Most people have issues with people "marketing the property" using "equitable interest". If your contract gives you permission to market the property as an "owner by contract" I have no morale issues with it. 

Promising to close yourself and doing an assignment. I see the morale qualm. Being upfront and honest... I sleep great at night. 

My mentor told me the grocery store model is best:

"You don't want to sell a seller in the grocery store and have to duck around a corner. You want to walk right up to them and ask how the kids are." -Jerry Puckett

Final part of my rant.... A seller who knows I wholesaled her property (saw it marketed online for CONSIDERABLY more) has came to me and asked me to help them potentially invest the profits they got from selling to me. That says something.

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  • Contractor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 137 posts · 44 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Donald Taite:
    Originally posted by @Ryan Dossey:

    @Troy Whitney Why I don't have my license. Freedom. I don't want to create objections for myself when I market. (having to disclose I am a Realtor vs an individual.) 

    There is nothing "under handed" about my process. I show them comps. I show them what there house is worth. I then give them a down to earth estimate of what it costs to get the home to that condition. I also explain I don't work for free and the fact that I close fast commands a premium. 

    While there are deals that come up to Realtors there are also deals that completely bypass you guys. I get house deals brought to me from Realtors before they are listed here and there. Investors typically run in tight groups. If you preform like you say you will people come back to you. Also for example.... I moved two drug houses. Gang signs plastered all over the walls. The guy who bought them from me double closed that day and made more on one of them. He is rehabbing the other. As a realtor my commission on that deal would have been a measly $3k. By wholesaling I made 20K. Could I have fixed them and made more... Yes. But my time is valuable. 

    Donald - it obviously depends on the market you're in.  If there are still lots of distressed properties where you live then you're more likely to find panicky sellers willing to basically give away equity in their home.  I'm not making a value judgement.  Obviously it's a business model that has served a purpose for a number of years.

  • Houston, TX · Member since 2013 · 11 posts · 7 votes
    11y

    Wholesalers have language which they discuss with the Seller, read to the Seller and have the Seller sign.  In brief, the language is:

    "I, Ms. Diamond Dodson, am in business to make a profit.  You, the Seller, understand the concept of capitalism in the United States.  The property you are optioning/contracting to my company/me will be resold to another party at a higher price ."

    Diamond Dodson knows the legalities of wholesale. Fees on residential wholesale deals  run $50,000, $80,000, $100,000, $300,000, $500,000 ... and are paid daily.

    Kathleen Arnett

    Real estate entrepreneur  

    .

  • Real Estate Broker · Tucson, AZ · Member since 2012 · 410 posts · 337 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    My subject is not direct, but a legitimate question.

    I recently got a prime follow up call for a prospect that could absolutely be wholesaled. Upon making an offer and coming to negotiating terms with the seller, I needed to find an attorney who is familiar with how wholesaling works. .....

    After several phone calls with attorneys, I have not gotten one single attorney who wants to deal with wholesaling because it is a "dishonest" thing to have the seller under the impression that YOU are going to close on the property and/or it is a waste of their time because "most of the time these assignments of contracts never work out".....

    After giving it some serious thought, it does seem pretty dishonest to mislead the seller into believing YOU are going to close on the property and then worst case scenario ending up voiding it all together through a "weasel clause" and wasting everyones time....

    My question is.... can anyone convince me this is not a dishonest business and also is it possible to find an attorney willing to work with you without actually being dishonest with him too.

    Wholesaling Houses Ethically...

    Thank you for taking the time to write this very important question.

    The answer is actually much simpler than you might imagine.  As a Broker, Realtor® and Investing Wholesaler myself, I can only imagine what the Attorney may have been thinking when you described your deal.

    A MAJORITY of the problems that newer Wholesaling Investors have when dealing with agents and Attorneys is the language that you use.  

    When you say things like "flipping the house prior to close" or "using the end use buyers funds to close" or other "industry vernacular" then it is akin to an attorney expecting you to know what "Anticipatory Breach" is.

    Truth is, we as investors and agents are judged by the language you use.  

    Instead, change the dialogue from whatever you are currently saying to "assignment of contract" which is the legal term for a majority of what you are doing.

    By simply using the correct language, you will eliminate 90% of the problem.

    Dishonest Business?

    In your question about "can anyone convince me this is not a dishonest business..."

    Well, I won't try to convince you.  I will demonstrate however the fallacy of this line of thinking.  

    Chances are, you've not given a single thought to the Nike Shoes you are wearing that were most likely created in a Vietnamese sweatshop by children who cannot afford to wear the shoes you throw away.

    Chances are, If you are like me, you haven't given any pause to the fact that Apple, who made this Macbook Pro I am writing on, routinely creates jobs overseas so they can legally avoid paying taxes in the United States. 

    Dishonest?  That is simply a question of perspective.

    If you lie to the Seller about your intentions, then perhaps that might be dishonest.  

    However, I tell my Sellers that not only am a licensee, and that I am not working in their interests... but that anything they say... "Can and will be used against you in negotiations." I tell every Seller (in writing) that my intent....

    Buyer shall not reside in the premises.
    Buyer shall lease, rent, repair, assign, or sell for profit.

    Wholesalers provide a useful function in the marketplace.  They are, to my estimation, the sum total of what an Investor should aspire to be.  

    A rehabber can fix and sell. Thats a tough job. A Landlord can figure out CAP Rates and handle tenants... thats another tough job and skillset.

    However, to the man or woman who is ALWAYS in the know about the BEST deals... 

    Their future is assured.

    Finding Attorneys...

    If your concern is finding an attorney to close the deal.. then it is because you are telling them in advance of your intent to do a wholesale deal.  Big mistake in my mind.

    Not saying that you should lie to anyone... of course not.

    However, you need to keep your options open.  

    Approach every deal as though you personally could do it yourself.  Trust me... if the deal is a really good one, you will have people who will help you repair and sell it.

    Keep your options open.  Maybe you will decide to sell it via assignment of contract.  Maybe you will close with transactional funding and sell it 20 seconds later.  Who cares.  Either way, you are keeping your options open.

    In conclusion, Assignment of Contract (aka wholesaling) is legal.  Dishonesty is if you lie. Disclose your intent to resell for a profit as I do if you are concerned about it, and keep your options open.

    That way, you will win!

    Have a Powerful Sales Day!  

  • Bulawayo, Zimbabwe · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 253 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Tim G.:

    if we didn't add value we wouldn't exist. 



  • Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2014 · 284 posts · 123 votes
    11y

    @Account Closed

     I don't do wholesaling, so I can't speak from first hand knowledge. However, I don't see how it's inherently dishonest. I am looking at a wholesale deal right now as a buyer, and the wholesaler put the property under contract as "Pending Feasibility". This lets other buyers know that a deal hasn't closed, and presumably he submitted a contingent contract with an assignment clause. There is nothing dishonest if the other side is aware that you may not close the deal.

    On the other hand, if you are putting property under contract without any notice to the seller that you might not close, that might cross an ethical line. It isn't fair to lock up someone's property in good faith, with the belief that you will close, and in the meantime you are just wishing and hoping to find a buyer. That would probably cross a line for me, especially because you will eventually get a reputation in the community and people may refuse to work with you.

  • Specialist · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2012 · 865 posts · 351 votes
    11y

    Bill G.

    I have read a lot of your stuff and your bright. My thoughts are that if every one had to reach to your level to get in the RE game there would be 98% fewer investors. I would have never done my first deal and I have done over 50 if I would of waited to rise to your level. Now that probably doesn't make me even a RE preschooler in your book.  

    With that being said, Thanks for sharing. ;D 

  • Henderson, NV · Member since 2012 · 53 posts · 11 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    My subject is not direct, but a legitimate question.

    I recently got a prime follow up call for a prospect that could absolutely be wholesaled. Upon making an offer and coming to negotiating terms with the seller, I needed to find an attorney who is familiar with how wholesaling works. After reading a response to a forum posted by @Tyler O'Malley, apparently all RE attorneys are familiar with wholesaling or are able/willing to work with you. This is not the case at all. After several phone calls with attorneys, I have not gotten one single attorney who wants to deal with wholesaling because it is a "dishonest" thing to have the seller under the impression that YOU are going to close on the property and/or it is a waste of their time because "most of the time these assignments of contracts never work out". After giving it some serious thought, it does seem pretty dishonest to mislead the seller into believing YOU are going to close on the property and then worst case scenario ending up voiding it all together through a "weasel clause" and wasting everyones time. My question is can anyone convince me this is not a dishonest business and also is it possible to find an attorney willing to work with you without actually being dishonest with him too.

     Robert,

    You seem to be having doubts about the way you have decided to make money in Real Estate. You have received many answers and advice much of it sounds like “Pick Me” "Pick Me”.

    Ill add my “Pick Me” to the mix.

    In life do only deals you feel good about! Regardless of what you call it from Wholesaler to selling cars to licensed RE Broker it all comes down to a deal you feel good about. If making money is your thing DO IT. If making people feel good is your thing DO IT If you can Do Both DO THAT FOR SURE!

    Ole @Rob G says you can make $20K on a $2 Mill Deal. I wouldn’t feel good about that considering that 6% (Both Sides) of a $2 Mill Deal is $120K

    Make your money. Feel Good Doing It. If You Can’t Feel Good About It Then Don’t Do The Deal.

    Good Luck

  • Investor · Palm Bay, FL · Member since 2014 · 49 posts · 25 votes
    10y

    The Poster is correct. Not all wholesalers are unethical but most of them are. Wholesaling without a real estate license is a crime that is skirted around with a few minor points of law. Mostly about (Equitable interest) but the bulk of the time the seller is deceived and the wholesaler has no real interest.  In cases where the state has wanted to prosecute the wholesalers nearly always end up losing. I know this will insult a few honest wholesalers and it will insult a lot more dishonest ones but the truth is we don't need them and for the most part the industry would be better off without them. I buy from wholesalers because I have to. I like a few of them.  Some I tolerate. Most of them I cant abide. I have seen them lie cheat and steal (But mostly Lie) . Real estate is about honest practice and disclosure. We need state laws that more closely define what  requires a real estate license. That's not to say licensed persons cant be dishonest but at least they are bonded and regulated. 

    Example... True Story.. I live in Palm Bay... 2 days ago I get a text from a wholesaler about a "Smoking Flip Deal" in my town. The wholesaler lives 2 hours away and doesn't know diddly about my farm area. I ask if he has a real estate license, He answers "No I don't have a real estate license" He wants 175k for a nice 1700sf house in a gated community. So I ask how he got the bank down on the price. He says (I really go hard on them) I know hes lying because its a HUD property and I have been in it several times already ( I would have purchased the house but its a terrible deal). 2 days later the house is back on HUD site. Which means..... That's right he never had the house under contract because he didn't pay his earnest money deposit. This is brokering without a license, its a felony. Its fraud and it involves federal property. As an active investor I see this all the time. Its very frustrating

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