Wholesaling (Against the Law?)

Wholesaling (Against the Law?)

Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 123 posts · 27 votes

I have not wholesaled a house and finding one that would make a acceptable deal, for a buyer, is very difficult in our area.  I have done two fix and flips and they are a lot of work and a fair amount of risk as well. Selling a deal and making a profit, with little risk, could be a better option that doing the work.  

So is wholesaling against the law?  Does anyone really know?  Do we just have a bunch of realtors out there, that resent anyone doing anything that could possiably put money in their pocket, trying to scare off wholesalers?  Do you know of anyone selling their assignable contract being prosecuted for braking some law?  It appears that most of the negative comments about wholesaling seem to be efforts to protect realtors turf and little to do with protecting the public.  Is the real truth out there because there are a lot of people promoting wholesaling.

1Reply
92 views

Most Popular Reply

Ned CareyPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
11y

Well I firmly believe that in most states as the law stands now, it is perfectly legal to wholesale by assigning a contract. However laws change and the trend is against wholesaling. 

Despite that, is it possible to "wholesale in a way that is not legal?" - Absolutely yes. However it is in most cases absolutely possible to comply with the law while assigning a contract. 

  • Most state's laws say that putting together a buyer and seller for consideration "For Another" is brokering without a license. You are not doing it on behalf of another when you wholesale properly. You are bargaining against the seller for your own interest on the buy side, you are bargaining against the buyer for your own interest on the sell side. Many claiming wholesaling is illegal totally ignore the "for another"part of the law. 
  • Many well respected  members here say to be honest with a seller and that you are going find another buyer buy the property. This is essentially saying you are helping them find a buyer or helping sell the property. This I think crosses the "for another" line and now becomes a questionable practice.
  • Real estate brokerage laws were designed to protect consumers of brokerage services from unskilled practitioners. Since you are bargaining on your own behalf you ARE NOT breaking the INTENT of brokerage laws.
  • Therefore when wholesaling properly, you are complying with both the letter of the law and the intent of the law.
  • The Realtor supported Multiple list system in MD allows you to list a property you have under contract. A clear indication that it is legal to assign a contract.
  • Now are there bureaucrats which are trying to stop the process - yes. , In OH for example, threatening letters have been sent out to investors. Yet a very successful investor, with boots on the ground in OH was unable to get the bureaucrats to put in writing the exact law and basis for any fines. This investor and the investor's lawyer believe the reluctance to put in writing the exact violation means, they know they do not have a legal basis for their actions. Now this is only one investor/lawyers opinion, buy it shows even  in the most contentious state there is reason to believe it is legal.

None of the above is intended as legal advice for any readers specific situation.

See this reply in the discussion

86 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    11y

    @Bill Gulley wrote

    No I wasn't thinking of you. But now that you mention it.    .    .    Just kidding!    Bill we don't always agree but we a never far apart.  You always present a rational justification for your thinking. That is educating the readers.

  • Real Estate Agent · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    The fundamental problem is you are selling something you do not own.  That makes you an agent or a broker, thus the need for a license.  

    It is easy to confuse that legality and enforcement.  At some point in time enforcement will catch up with the market.  The wholesale market may be tapped out by that point but it is coming.  There are only so many desperate homeowners out there.  As the housing market and the economy come back, there will be even fewer.

  • Investor · Daphne, AL · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 242 votes
    11y
    Get your license. Why skirt the edges of legality? Good luck.
  • Lake Mary, FL · Member since 2014 · 118 posts · 54 votes
    11y

    I could go on for a long time about this, but I will be brief. I have wholesaled hundreds of properties in Central Florida. I myself have moved away from it as I think the market here has become over saturated with wholesalers that have no idea what they are doing. A lot of them contract houses at list or above and then add money on top and sling it against the wall. There is no service being provided here except for ones own gain. I have opened my own company and am going to use my knowledge to take myself out of the middle and represent clients directly to the sellers. 

    As far as legalities go. It is 100% legal in Florida to wholesale. You put the property under contract and you now have the contractual rights to the property. If you are licensed there are disclosures that I had my buyers sign stating exactly what the transaction was and had them sign a no brokerage relationship form. Not having a license you can do the same exact thing as long as your company or you are on the corporate docs you can market the property as you have the contractual rights. The main issue is that people don't do there homework or know how to structure the deal and end up screwing it up. There are very successful companies in the area that do things the proper way.

    Don't listen to the gurus they are out to shove info down your throat, take your money and never see you again. 

    @Jay Hinrichs wrote it well above.

  • Irvine, CA · Member since 2015 · 51 posts · 6 votes
    11y

    I have been a real estate broker for 18 years and I assure you that even "assigning" to "give yourself an ownership interest" is not going to protect you as a wholesaler. You are practicing real estate without a license. A person of fair intelligence can pass most state salesperson exams by studying for 3 weeks. Problem is most wholesalers are afraid they aren't smart enough to pass and want to do shady things which they would loose their license for anyway so they don't bother.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Lesley Resnick:

    The fundamental problem is you are selling something you do not own.  That makes you an agent or a broker, thus the need for a license.  

    If done correctly, you are selling/assigning a contract to purchase (which you DO own); you're not selling real property.  Assignment of contract is governed by contract law, not real property law.

    There is nothing illegal about assigning a contract (in any state) without a license.

  • Altus, OK · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 690 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:
    Originally posted by @Lesley Resnick:

    The fundamental problem is you are selling something you do not own.  That makes you an agent or a broker, thus the need for a license.  

    There is nothing illegal about assigning a contract (in any state) without a license.

    True but that isn't the issue that's being tossed around. It's whether or not you have the right to market the property is what's in question.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @James Hiddle:
    Originally posted by @J Scott:
    Originally posted by @Lesley Resnick:

    The fundamental problem is you are selling something you do not own.  That makes you an agent or a broker, thus the need for a license.  

    There is nothing illegal about assigning a contract (in any state) without a license.

    True but that isn't the issue that's being tossed around. It's whether or not you have the right to market the property is what's in question.

     As I mentioned to you in another thread, in Georgia (where I've spoken with a real estate attorney about it), yes you do have the right...

  • Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 123 posts · 27 votes
    11y

    To the recent Realtor/Broker posters that state that you need a license to sell real estate I would like some clarification on your statements.  I understand that brokers at one time tried to make it against the law for people to sell their own property.  It is my understanding that Realtors/Brokers job is to represent a seller or a buyer of a property that does not belong to them for an agreed upon fee.  They have a contract with the seller outlining that relationship.    If a broker is being a wholesaler (i.e. he/she has the property under contract to purchase) then the relationship to the owner and their property is different.  They are not representing the seller when presenting the property, they are representing their interest in the property.  I don't understand how a broker or realtor selling a property that they have a purchase contract on (not a brokerage contract in which you represent the owner) is in any different position than anyone else.

  • Cleveland, OH · Member since 2011 · 400 posts · 223 votes
    11y

    If I had a nickel for every time someone "firmly believed" that the law permits a certain activity, I wouldn't need real estate...

    Read the forums, then read some law review articles if you dare. There is one, and only one, certainty when it comes to wholesaling: there are no certainties. Furthermore, there are very few certainties when it comes to the practice of law in general -- ever heard a lawyer tell you, "it depends?" 

    It all boils down to how convincing your argument is when you're standing in a courtroom. Wholesaling looks an awful like fraud and deception to a layperson, so you're already digging yourself out of a fairly deep hole by the time you get caught. If you can find a way to wholesale without concealing information or leaving your seller feeling that you appropriated value that belongs to him, more power to you. You're less likely to be prosecuted if you don't do things that upset people. But don't be surprised when you get a letter from the state proposing a fine for fraudulent activity. As I've said in previous threads, if it quacks like a duck, judges will assume it's a duck. They're not all that diligent and they've got a 3 o'clock tee time.

  • Altus, OK · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 690 votes
    11y

    And a 4 o'clock tea time :)-

  • Investor · Athens, GA · Member since 2011 · 306 posts · 156 votes
    11y

    Maybe I am beating the dead horse wholesaling legality question. I wanted to make complete sure I could do it myself with a property I have under contract, or with sellers I represented as an agent where they might be the one who has it under contract so that I could list on the MLS. I did ask a great continuing education teacher in my area. He intelligently cited the actual law, otherwise known as code in some places. Check out your own state because it's all there free to read. Here is the example from what the Official Code of Georgia says about licensed agents wholesaling and marketing a contract for real estate as a principal. By the way this is not "legal advice," just quoting the law:

    § 43-40-25. Violations by licensees, schools, and instructors; sanctions; unfair trade practices

    (b) Licensees shall not engage in any of the following unfair trade practices:

    (9) Acting in the dual capacity of agent and undisclosed principal in any transaction;

    (10) Guaranteeing or authorizing any person to guarantee future profits which may result from the resale of real property;

    (11) Placing a sign on any property offering it for sale or rent without the written consent of the owner or the owner's authorized agent and failing to remove such sign within ten days after the expiration of listing;

    (12) Offering real estate for sale or lease without the knowledge and consent of the owner or the owner's authorized agent or on terms other than those authorized by the owner or the owner's authorized agent;

    But then this also makes you question acting as a real estate broker as a wholesaler without a license.  

    *** Current Through the 2015 Regular Session ***
    TITLE 43. PROFESSIONS AND BUSINESSES
    CHAPTER 40. REAL ESTATE BROKERS AND SALESPERSONS
    O.C.G.A. § 43-40-30 (2015)
    § 43-40-30. Acting without a license; cease and desist order; judicial review; effect of Code section on other remedies


    (a) Any person who, directly or indirectly, with the intention or upon the promise of receiving any valuable consideration, offers, attempts, or agrees to perform, or performs, any single act defined in paragraph (2) of Code Section 43-40-1, whether as a part of a transaction or as an entire transaction, shall be deemed a licensee within the meaning of this chapter. The commission of a single such act by a person who is required to be licensed under this chapter but who is not so licensed shall constitute a violation of this chapter.

    (b) It shall be unlawful for any person, directly or indirectly, to engage in or conduct the business of, or advertise or hold himself or herself out as engaging in or conducting the business of, or act in the capacity of, a licensee within this state without first obtaining a license as provided in this chapter unless such person is exempted from obtaining a license under Code Section 43-40-29.

    (c) Notwithstanding any other provisions of law to the contrary, the commission may issue a cease and desist order prohibiting any person from violating the provisions of this chapter by engaging in the practice of a real estate broker without a license. Such cease and desist order shall be final ten days after it is issued unless the person to whom such order is issued requests a hearing before the commission.

    (d) The violation of any cease and desist order of the commission under subsection (c) of this Code section shall subject the person violating the order to further proceedings before the commission, and the commission shall be authorized to impose a fine not to exceed $1,000.00 for each transaction constituting a violation of such order. Each day that a person practices in violation of this chapter shall constitute a separate violation.

    O.C.G.A. § 43-40-30

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Christian Carson:
    Wholesaling looks an awful like fraud and deception to a layperson...

    I'm not sure that's the case.  Any layperson who understands how assignment of a contract works outside of real estate (where contract assignment is a long-standing and well-accepted component of contract law) likely realizes that assigning a real estate contract is no different than assigning a manufacturing contract, a service contract or any number of other types of contracts that are frequently assigned.

    Even in the real estate world, assigning contracts isn't just delegated to the realm of wholesalers.  Developers frequently assign development contracts and even large commercial investors have gained some notoriety in the past couple years for making large profits off of option contracts that were sold to third-parties.

    It's easy to say that a judge will tend rule against wholesalers just because of the nature and perception of their business; but to-date, nobody has been able to present to me any case law that supports this assertion.  In all of the cases I've read about where a wholesaler has incurred a penalty (civil or criminal), there were clear violations that extended far beyond just marketing of a property (or assigning of a contract) where the marketer held equitable title in the property.

    Can you provide any case law of situations where someone had equitable title and was penalized specifically for marketing the property or assigning the contract?

    I'm not saying it doesn't exist (and I'm not a wholesaler nor an attorney, so I've haven't spent too much time investigating), but I certainly haven't seen it.

  • Altus, OK · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 690 votes
    11y

    Sounds like advertising a property in Georgia is illegal according to the info Ethan posted as advertising a property without a license is acting like a broker.

  • Cleveland, OH · Member since 2011 · 400 posts · 223 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:

    Let me be more specific. The practice of wholesaling, and the industry usage of contract assignment, is beyond the purview of the unskilled consumer seller. As a wholesaler, it's highly unlikely that your seller is going to be a sophisticated operator. "Consumer" is a term of art for the purpose of interpreting consumer protection acts, which are on the books of all fifty states. Although consumer protection acts don't typically apply to real estate transactions, I could foresee a savvy plaintiff using your "this is not a real estate transaction" argument against you--allowing recovery of statutory damages, punitive damages, and attorney fees. At least that's what I would do as plaintiff's attorney. And let me tell you this: the amount of common sense or special knowledge attributed to such a person by a judge is going to be embarrassingly minimal. 

    Before I provide citations, let me explain the nature of these rules and how they are enforced. In Ohio, the Real Estate Commission is an administrative entity that has special power to administratively enforce the real estate licensing statute as well as other regulations promulgated by the Department of Commerce.

    The Real Estate Commission practices what we call administrative law, or "kangaroo court" in layman's terms. It is similar to a hearing before the Social Security Administration or the state worker's compensation board. Rules of procedure and evidence don't really apply, and appeals are limited. Neither is there a requirement to publicize these hearings (at least without a FOIA request). It's unlikely that most states' commissions even produce published opinions or transcripts.

    In any case, even most trial court cases are decided without a judicial opinion. It is only at the appeals court level that we have access to published opinions interpreting the law. Trial court judges are notorious for arbitrary legal conclusions relying entirely on legal reasoning in briefs submitted by one of the parties.

    So here's the upshot - if you are willing to roll the dice and you have the money to defend an admin hearing and prepare at least one appeal, by all means carry through with the attitude that "the law is on your side." By all means I support your right to wholesale personally and will zealously defend any wholesaler who retains me as counsel. Anyone who's on the other side of my desk is going to get the same advice, though -- it's probably cheaper just to pay the fine and promise not to do it again than to launch a protracted campaign to fight the state.

    Here is some reading material evidencing prosecution for wholesaling in Ohio.

    First, what we call an "official interpretation" of the law, straight from the state governing board's 2014 newsletter:

    Second, I earlier detailed the disciplinary actions here: http://lawcarson.com/2014/08/more-fines-for-unlicensed-activity-in-ohio/

  • Attorney · Winchester, VA · Member since 2015 · 726 posts · 387 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Christian Carson:

    Before I provide citations, let me explain the nature of these rules and how they are enforced. In Ohio, the Real Estate Commission is an administrative entity that has special power to administratively enforce the real estate licensing statute as well as other regulations promulgated by the Department of Commerce.

    The Real Estate Commission practices what we call administrative law, or "kangaroo court" in layman's terms. It is similar to a hearing before the Social Security Administration or the state worker's compensation board. Rules of procedure and evidence don't really apply, and appeals are limited. Neither is there a requirement to publicize these hearings (at least without a FOIA request). It's unlikely that most states' commissions even produce published opinions or transcripts.

    In any case, even most trial court cases are decided without a judicial opinion. It is only at the appeals court level that we have access to published opinions interpreting the law. Trial court judges are notorious for arbitrary legal conclusions relying entirely on legal reasoning in briefs submitted by one of the parties.

    So here's the upshot - if you are willing to roll the dice and you have the money to defend an admin hearing and prepare at least one appeal, by all means carry through with the attitude that "the law is on your side." By all means I support your right to wholesale personally and will zealously defend any wholesaler who retains me as counsel. Anyone who's on the other side of my desk is going to get the same advice, though -- it's probably cheaper just to pay the fine and promise not to do it again than to launch a protracted campaign to fight the state.

    Here is some reading material evidencing prosecution for wholesaling in Ohio.

    First, what we call an "official interpretation" of the law, straight from the state governing board's 2014 newsletter

    Second, I earlier detailed the disciplinary actions here: http://lawcarson.com/2014/08/more-fines-for-unlicensed-activity-in-ohio/

    First; a newsletter from a government agency is hardly considered to even be persuasive legal authority. Or a disciplinary proceeding for that matter by a governmental agency. Just because something is on the statutes of a given state doesn't necessarily mean that this particular statute is constitutional under either the state's laws or federal law; or that the enactment of that particular statute and how it is applied is unconstitutional under a state's laws or federal law. I would agree that, based on my reading of that particular statute, it does limit (only in Ohio) someone's ability to act as a POA in the exchange of real estate.

    However, based on my understanding of Contract Law and fundamental concepts of Common Law, were this to be challenged *as applied* to how a lot of wholesalers operate, I would wager that this would be smacked down by either the State's Supreme Court or the Federal Appeals Courts.

    What you need is *case law* to support your claim. And let me say for the record, I've been looking for case law on this very point for quite some time after stating my distaste for the idea that a licensing authority can limit a person's ability to act as POA for the purpose of selling a property, and I have found nothing in any of the Circuits.


    What I would tell Clients, were I in a draconian jurisdiction that practiced such things, is the cost of going through the appellate process, likelihood of succeeding at the appellate stage, and a breakdown, like you said, of whether it is worth pursuing.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Christian Carson:

    Again, I don't wholesale (except when I purchase a property outright before I resell it), so I have no vested interest in the outcome of this debate...

    That said, the information above is incredibly vague.  Not to mention it sounds like it was part of a newsletter -- not a formal legal notification.  But, I'm not arguing that what is taught at most guru seminars will likely skirt/break real estate code; the question is more whether wholesaling can be done in a legal manner that is relatively free of risk from civil or criminal penalty.  And I've yet to see any indication that that's not the case.

    You point to examples of people getting penalized for unlicensed activity (on your website), but the examples are all free of any detail related to the specific activity that resulted in the penalty.  I've yet to see an example of someone being penalized (criminally or civilly) for simply putting a property under contract using an assignable contract, finding a buyer (preferably without public marketing/advertising involved) and then assigning the contract to that buyer.

    Perhaps every one of the examples on your website reflected those facts.  Perhaps none did.  I don't know.  The details weren't presented.  But, I do suspect that you won't find many situations where investors are getting penalized for doing what I explained above.

    Again, if you have any examples (that actually contain specifics of the case), I'd love to hear them...

    NOTE:  It appears that Matthew (above) and I were replying at the same time.  I was trying to make the same points he was, though his were much more succinct and he has the legal background to support the statements...  :-)

  • Cleveland, OH · Member since 2011 · 400 posts · 223 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:

    That said, the information above is incredibly vague.  

    If these examples are not enough to satisfy you, that is your business, of course. I'm not here to pass judgment on the ethics of anyone's business practice. It is my job to make an honest assessment risk for my clients, free of emotion, and I believe there is enough information here to indicate significant risk with respect to Ohio.

    These debates often tend to confuse the normative ("wholesaling should be legal") with the positive ("there is some evidence to indicate that the tribunal will rule against you"). Failure to separate these two elements can cause the discussion to look more like a debate about the existence of God than one about legal and practical principles. Our information will always be imperfect when examining the law. 

    So what evidence do we have? We have an article written by the Superintendent of the Real Estate Licensing Division indicating that wholesaling in its many forms is illegal, combined with several instances of fines issued for selling and listing real estate without a license. Does this leave us with an absolute, positive, 100% view that this is settled law? Absolutely not. But should we pay attention when the Superintendent speaks? You bet she knows how the Real Estate Commission is going to treat her fact pattern. The Commission, whose sole purpose is to enforce the licensing statute, will be determining whether a wholesaler's activity is subject to the licensing statute. On the other hand, we have zero evidence that the Commission has approved this practice.

    I've seen vague citations to unspecified principles of common law before in this debate, and frankly it puzzles me. In Ohio, and I presume Virginia as well, the state has plenary power to legislate, and statutes always and forever abrogate the common law unless they violate the state or federal constitution. Unless Virginia went back to the Lochner era when I wasn't looking, the real estate licensing statute abrogates any common law freedom of contract.

    And further, the statue is the law of the land until such time as an appeals court finds it unconstitutional. It's very risky to advise a client to pursue a defense based on a notion that the statute is probably unconstitutional.

    That's my only point here. I'm not here to debate what the Ohio Supreme Court might say about this. The reason we don't have more case law is simply because most wholesalers can't afford to litigate.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Christian Carson:
    Originally posted by @J Scott:

    That said, the information above is incredibly vague.  

    If these examples are not enough to satisfy you, that is your business, of course.

    Let me try again, as I clearly didn't express what I intended to express...

    The examples you posted on your website contains no details about the specific situations for which people were penalized.  As an attorney, I'm sure you can appreciate the fact that specific details matter when it comes to determining whether an action is lawful or not.

    I'm pretty sure I could find plenty of well-respected law enforcement agents and judges who would tell you that crossing the street, when done improperly, would result in penalty.  Would you then advise all your clients never to cross the street?  Would you post a list of people who were penalized for crossing the street (without additional detail) to support your assertion that people shouldn't cross the street?

    As an attorney, I recognize that it's much easier for you to tell people "just don't do it," as that way you can never be held accountable for their doing it incorrectly; but, in my experience, the attorneys who are worth their rate are the ones who instead say, "let's talk about how you can do this legally"...

    Of course, if you believe that there is no legal way to wholesale, that's another story.  Is that your contention?

  • Ronald PerichPro Member
    Investor · Granite City, IL · Member since 2014 · 658 posts · 301 votes
    11y

    There are a number of legal precedents and writings about the legality of assigning contracts. As @J Scott mentioned, this has been a part of contract law for a long time.

    That said, most wholesalers do not engage in the practice of marketing their contracts, they market the property. And I think that's where things start to get a little grey. 

    I think something that's blatantly illegal is when some wholesalers attempt to sell property to which they have no legal standing whatsoever. They get an email about a property under contract and then turn around and remarket that property to their buyers list at a higher price. With no agreement between them and the person with the assignable contract.

    Because they have no legal standing, they are certainly doing something unethical at best and perhaps illegal at worst.

    And I say this full-well knowing there are a number of "licensed" people out there who do all sorts of illegal or unethical things on a regular basis. I don't believe for one minute that having a license makes you any less likely to do something unethical or immoral.

  • Cleveland, OH · Member since 2011 · 400 posts · 223 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:

    Not under the current statutory regime. It's impossible to escape the conclusion that you are, in fact, facilitating a real estate transaction with respect to real property you do not own, with the intent of receiving a commission or fee. The conclusion would be different if you actually owned the property in question, but a prospective ownership interest contingent on your performance (an unperformed purchase contract) is not the same as a present ownership interest. An unrecorded deed or a fully performed real estate contract would serve the purpose as well, but good luck getting any one of those from your seller.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Christian Carson:
    Originally posted by @J Scott:

    Not under the current statutory regime. It's impossible to escape the conclusion that you are, in fact, facilitating a real estate transaction with respect to real property you do not own, with the intent of receiving a commission or fee. 

    So, in your professional opinion, there is no conceivable way that an unlicensed person could legally profit from assigning a real estate contact?  In other words, every real estate purchase agreement assignment that takes place necessarily constitutes a criminal act. 

    If so, I'm guessing you're in a small, small, small minority of legal professionals who believes that.  

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @James Sinclair:

    To the recent Realtor/Broker posters that state that you need a license to sell real estate I would like some clarification on your statements.  I understand that brokers at one time tried to make it against the law for people to sell their own property.  It is my understanding that Realtors/Brokers job is to represent a seller or a buyer of a property that does not belong to them for an agreed upon fee.  They have a contract with the seller outlining that relationship.    If a broker is being a wholesaler (i.e. he/she has the property under contract to purchase) then the relationship to the owner and their property is different.  They are not representing the seller when presenting the property, they are representing their interest in the property.  I don't understand how a broker or realtor selling a property that they have a purchase contract on (not a brokerage contract in which you represent the owner) is in any different position than anyone else.

     Representation is not really the issue James. If you look at the requirements for a contract you'll see that the parties must have a "meeting of the minds" that neither has an undue advantage, etc.

    The law does not require that the parties have the same knowledge, but similar knowledge.

    A licensee is seen as the expert in the room, simply because they have demonstrated a higher level of expertise than the general public by being a licensee. This is why licensees are required to disclose their license status, they must put a non-licensee or the general public on notice of their expertise, their advantage in contracting.

    Licensees are held to a higher standard of care, especially when they are acting in their own interests. They are seen as having the ability to take advantage of the public due to their greater knowledge and perceived abilities. A judge will scrutinize the acts of a licensee before they do someone else. 

    This is true with other professionals when they deal in their area of their expertise. Poor attorneys, almost any business transaction is in their area of expertise and at some point, they will let that be known that they are a lawyer, as applicable.

    It's not a matter of representation, it's a matter of having a level playing field. :)
     

  • Attorney · Winchester, VA · Member since 2015 · 726 posts · 387 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:

    So, in your professional opinion, there is no conceivable way that an unlicensed person could legally profit from assigning a real estate contact?  In other words, every real estate purchase agreement assignment that takes place necessarily constitutes a criminal act. 

    If so, I'm guessing you're in a small, small, small minority of legal professionals who believes that.  

     To be fair,  Attorney Carsen is correct as it comes to Ohio law. To explain his side of things; there is indeed a statute that even limits the kind of activity you propose in Georgia. However, his statute has absolutely no bearing on any activity that takes place in any of the other states, and I would say his state is in the minority in terms of whether such prohibitions have been codified.

    To answer Attorney Carsen's reference to vague allusions of common law; the method by which the clause would be declared Unconstitutional would vary depending on whether this were to be taken before a Federal Tribunal or a state Tribunal. As I am not licensed to practice in your state, I would do you the service of not explaining in great detail, after my reading of the Ohio Constitution, of why I think this violates the Ohio Constitution.

    I would say that I do believe it violates central precepts of Federal Law, namely the Commerce cause and/or its negative implications, and through the incorporation of the fourteenth amendment, the violation of what I would consider to be a fundamental right (although not entirely elucidated in case law yet), namely that of the ability for people to freely contract for the carrying out of what I would consider basic and fundamental conveyances of property.

    We could debate at length about this portion of the situation, but as you said, you are not here to do that. I agree that your State, and not that of Virginia, does have a statute that prohibits assignment of contract. But that by no means confirms or finalizes the debate, even your jurisdiction, of whether "wholesaling is illegal". At most, it determines the likelihood someone would succeed at that administrative review stage in your state alone, hardly a strong benchmark of legality.

  • Cleveland, OH · Member since 2011 · 400 posts · 223 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:

    So, in your professional opinion, there is no conceivable way that an unlicensed person could legally profit from assigning a real estate contact?  In other words, every real estate purchase agreement assignment that takes place necessarily constitutes a criminal act. 

    Are you prepared to take the stand and testify that (a) you intended to take title to the property which you agreed to purchase, (b) you did not intend to use that contract as a tool for facilitating a sale of real estate of another with the intent of receiving a commission or fee, (c) your intent in dealing with the seller was not to facilitate the sale of his real estate to another, (d) your intent with dealing with the buyer was not to facilitate the sale of the real estate of another to the buyer, (e) that the sale of real estate would have occurred regardless of your contract assignment, (f) that you performed your obligations pursuant to the real estate contract before you assigned it, creating ascertainable rights of ownership, (g) that you did not receive a commission or fee for assigning that contract, (h) that the subject matter of the contract was not real estate, (i) that the assignment of your purchase contract did not facilitate a sale of real estate you did not own for a fee that you collected? 

    If you can testify to confirm these facts, you're perjurer. If you can't, prepare for the consequences. 

    Your analogy is inaccurate because the state does not require you to obtain a license before crossing the street. 

    In the past I offered an analogy of my own: I can either sell you $1mm of heroin, or a briefcase that happens to contain $1mm of heroin for 1.1mm. The effect is the same because the subject matter of the transaction is an illegal controlled substance. It would be the same as assigning a contract to purchase a briefcase full of IBM stock certificates without a securities license.  

     I'm not interested in trading insults with you. 

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.