Very Interesting For All BP Investors
Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
Very Interesting For All BP Investors
Most Popular Reply
Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
10yGreat stuff thank you for posting.
It would be great if all new members of BP who want to wholesale were always directed to threads like this as opposed to continually being told wholesaling is how to get into the biz. and make a living.
31 Replies
- Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes10y
Thanks for the info Bill. DBPR will be speaking at our next meeting covering the subject "what is unlicensed real estate activity". Anyone wanting to learn to operate within the law should come.
- Professional · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 119 posts · 37 votes10y
Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:
It's always interesting some real professionals come to BP.
With all the wholesaling questions that are posted on BP, many of those questions might be answered from this link.
The most interesting to me is the guru list, associates and supporters showing how this network of criminals.....I mean "Instructors" operate in an orchestrated manner.
It's a real world investigation with the use of social media from a regulatory and law enforcement point of view.
Are you in their cross hairs?
Are you going to be in their cross hairs?
Do you see anyone that you know? Do you really want to take their word for it that it's legal to conduct business the way they suggest?
It appears that confidential information has been blacked out, might read between the lines.
You'll see the actors identified, it's not just wholesaling, but a network of the gurus.
Check it out, we can discuss it, calibrate your BS Meter :)
This presentation was never meant to be shared publicly but the powers to be at the State level apparently thought this would give them credibility by posting. Just another reason I left State employment, some at a higher regulatory level are no better than those they are trying to regulate!
- Professional · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 119 posts · 37 votes10y
Originally posted by @John Thedford:
Thanks for the info Bill. DBPR will be speaking at our next meeting covering the subject "what is unlicensed real estate activity". Anyone wanting to learn to operate within the law should come.
John,
Please let me know what they say, my guess is it won't be very informative or substantive. They had no idea of the short sale fraud going on in Florida from 2010-2013, I wonder how much they really know about wholesaling and how it works.
Nick
- Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes10y
I am sure Florida is looking as well. I would be surprised if they don't watch BP.
- 10yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
@Bill Gulley on the wholesaling subject.. I was at 3 of the folks you featured on this articles events in the last year and one who is not featured.. I saw no evidence of teaching anything about wholesaling.. and actually I think this is old news.. they were saying wholesaling is a waste of their time that the students should use wholesalers to bring them deals but not engage in the activity. I submit to you that BP is far more involved with promoting wholesaling or selling RE without a license than the Guru's are ... its very popular on this site as you well know.. So unless you have personally sat through their events I really don't think your up to date on the info.. At least what I personally witnessed in the last year ...
- Houston, TX · Member since 2015 · 56 posts · 6 votes10y
Thanks for posting. I'll take a look.
- Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes10y
@Nick
@Account Closed
Josh mentioned years ago that id addresses of many visitors to the site were government offices.
If I had this goldmine in my days, my work would have been much easier!
Frankly, I don't understand why regulators aren't knocking on doors with the admissions and ploys some here post! It's probably because of the cost/damage factor, but sooner or later it may become worth the effort for some examples. :)
- Professional · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 119 posts · 37 votes10y
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
@Bill Gulley on the wholesaling subject.. I was at 3 of the folks you featured on this articles events in the last year and one who is not featured.. I saw no evidence of teaching anything about wholesaling.. and actually I think this is old news.. they were saying wholesaling is a waste of their time that the students should use wholesalers to bring them deals but not engage in the activity. I submit to you that BP is far more involved with promoting wholesaling or selling RE without a license than the Guru's are ... its very popular on this site as you well know.. So unless you have personally sat through their events I really don't think your up to date on the info.. At least what I personally witnessed in the last year ...
Jay,
They are still promoting wholesaling, some more than others but all are still promoting it. Wholesaling is promoted as the lowest entry to REI in terms of initial cost. And everyone wants to be a REI.
Nick
- 10yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
@Account Closed I can't say I sat through 100% of the presentations if wholesaling was brought up in a module it was very quick and not a focus. and in some states I think its still legal...
One of the Guru's though who I had a anti wholesaling module IE telling folks not to waste their time on wholesaling they should look at deals from wholesalers but not engage in the activity because its not a long term viable option for most folks.. I listened to that entire presentation.
- Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes10y
Jay, trying to keep up between the thread and private messages.
My point is, and probably not publicly known, what investigators look for, investigative methods aren't what you really see on TV.
You could look at that chart and conclude similar studies are done on drug lords.
Birds of a feather flock together.
Who you associate with tells a story.
Part of this thread is about the flock of birds. The network of the gurus.
No one's name is up there for attending the same church with any "suspect", or eating at the same club. Business relationships, co-producers of materials or co-speakers at a seminar, someone who endorses the method or program, coaches, "mentors" have acted in some area to be tagged as associates. They may not be guilty, but they are looked at.
But, what it tells me is a persons willingness to stoop to devious conduct or support it. That's not good in my book. :)
- 10yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
@Bill Gulley I hear you.. when you look at that list its a wide variety of nefarious type of activity from mortgage rescue ,, short sale shenanigans etc etc.
I am just commenting on what I witnessed at the events I went to this last year..
And as stated one Guru was adamant that wholesaling was not the answer their focus was simply on Fix and flip to retinal or fix and hold for long term growth.. they also sold no homes or anything else.. but they did charge that's for sure.. And I guess at the end of the day its up to the attendees to determine with they got value. I suspect that those that don't are the one's that would never succeed if they spent money or learned for free.
- Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes10y
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
@Bill Gulley I hear you.. when you look at that list its a wide variety of nefarious type of activity from mortgage rescue ,, short sale shenanigans etc etc.
I am just commenting on what I witnessed at the events I went to this last year..
And as stated one Guru was adamant that wholesaling was not the answer their focus was simply on Fix and flip to retinal or fix and hold for long term growth.. they also sold no homes or anything else.. but they did charge that's for sure.. And I guess at the end of the day its up to the attendees to determine with they got value. I suspect that those that don't are the one's that would never succeed if they spent money or learned for free.
Well, the poor will always be with you (JC) so will the ignorant, the stupid, the naive and the greedy.
I saw the bubble forming in '97 when Wells tried to convince me to originate non-conforming loans paying up to 10 points. I said I didn't care about the money, I wasn't going to originate a time bomb. I also complained to deaf years at the time.
OTH
If I were a flipper relying on wholesalers, I think I'd at least bring them into a business arrangement to allow them to buy with me, or in my company setting aside the issue of not taking title. If the end buyer isn't there you can't have a straw man deal. There are legal and ethical ways to effect wholesaling. :)
@Bill Gulley Nice to see some reality and your effort will benefit many here at BP. KUDOS!
- Real Estate Investor · Whiteland, IN · Member since 2014 · 54 posts · 20 votes10y
@Bill Gulley, I saw that the Ohio presentation appeared to include an option contract and cited it as an example of unlicensed real estate activity in Ohio. You have advocated use of an option contract as an alternative to wholesaling. What is the difference in the sample Ohio option contract and the type that you recommend?
- Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes10y
Originally posted by @Jeff James:
@Bill Gulley, I saw that the Ohio presentation appeared to include an option contract and cited it as an example of unlicensed real estate activity in Ohio. You have advocated use of an option contract as an alternative to wholesaling. What is the difference in the sample Ohio option contract and the type that you recommend?
You'll see in the blog, See Jane Wholesale, I mentioned that dealing in options also comes under license laws. Further reading, you'll see me say that there is a difference in "being in the business of" something and utilizing a contract assignment under different circumstances. The point about Jane was that she wasn't deceiving the owner with a purchase contract and causing further trouble as Zack did with a purchase contract.
It was to show the lesser of two evils, options are much better, but state law may still require a license if you're in the business.
I'd like to point out too, that stating something is better doesn't mean I advocate it, the only way I advocate wholesaling is by taking title for a resale. There are 3 basic way of doing that and with seller financing, you don't need money, you can still have poor credit, be broke as the Ten Commandments and not have a job, heck, I guess you could live under a bridge too.
It's the way things are done that's the issue, the way the gurus have taught all the newbies wanting to get into REI. :)
- Real Estate Investor · Whiteland, IN · Member since 2014 · 54 posts · 20 votes10y
@Bill Gulley, thanks for your response.
I developed my interest in real estate investing later in life. My older brain has problems absorbing what comes naturally to those who are far more experienced than I am. I will keep studying and try to retain the subject matter better.
- Professional · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 119 posts · 37 votes10y
Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:
Originally posted by @Jeff James:
@Bill Gulley, I saw that the Ohio presentation appeared to include an option contract and cited it as an example of unlicensed real estate activity in Ohio. You have advocated use of an option contract as an alternative to wholesaling. What is the difference in the sample Ohio option contract and the type that you recommend?
You'll see in the blog, See Jane Wholesale, I mentioned that dealing in options also comes under license laws. Further reading, you'll see me say that there is a difference in "being in the business of" something and utilizing a contract assignment under different circumstances. The point about Jane was that she wasn't deceiving the owner with a purchase contract and causing further trouble as Zack did with a purchase contract.
It was to show the lesser of two evils, options are much better, but state law may still require a license if you're in the business.
I'd like to point out too, that stating something is better doesn't mean I advocate it, the only way I advocate wholesaling is by taking title for a resale. There are 3 basic way of doing that and with seller financing, you don't need money, you can still have poor credit, be broke as the Ten Commandments and not have a job, heck, I guess you could live under a bridge too.
It's the way things are done that's the issue, the way the gurus have taught all the newbies wanting to get into REI. :)
I would suggest all comments related to what may be a regulatory or possible criminal issue be directed to me, feel free to address comments to me on the post or send me a private message and I will do my best to answer it. I believe Bill was speaking from an investors perspective and wasn't trying to speak from my experiences.
- Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes10y
@Account Closed
You posted:
" I would suggest all comments related to what may be a regulatory or possible criminal issue be directed to me, feel free to address comments to me on the post or send me a private message and I will do my best to answer it."
Nick, I've been on BP for over 6 years, people that have been here awhile know me. Jeff was asking about my suggestion of using an option contract after seeing an option shown in your information, obviously he had to ask for my clarification as to my advice. Jeff is trying to learn, which is where most on BP are at.
I was not speaking to the legality of your posted informational report. That is a gracious offer to address specifics in that report, one that others should take you up on. You're the only one here who knows what is actually contained in the report, assuming other regulators privy to the full report aren't here.
Your'e correct when you said:
"I believe Bill was speaking from an investors perspective and wasn't trying to speak from my experiences."
I can only speak from my knowledge and experiences, certainly not form others, that now covers over 50 years of work, business experience that includes federal financial regulatory experience. Real estate falls under the umbrella of finance and past duties included identifying criminal activity. With that said, I'll give my opinion to anyone who may ask for it as well. If the nature of any question falls specifically to the report mentioned, I will refer them to you Nick.
However, in general, looking at the guru documents contained in that report I see issues.
The Affidavit to be filed is incorrect and fails to give a termination date as to when the "option" expires.
It states that an equitable interest in the described property has been conveyed by the contract, it has not, options do not convey an equitable interest in title they convey an interest in the contract. So, my BS Meter goes off. Not including an expiration date presents title issues, it could delay or prevent future conveyances and become a civil matter for damages.
IMO, from what I see on the guru option, it implies performance of the optionee (in this case the wholesaler) In essence, if the optionee fails to perform the contract is ineffective, void. That isn't even an option! An option may not require any performance of any kind and if it does it reverts to a different type of contract.
What I can also see is that the "option" may be terminated by the seller at any time......that is laughable, certainly not an option!
Using terms such as buyer and seller in an option will take down the road of an installment agreement determination quickly, options don't have buyers and sellers, the grantor is the optionor and the grantee is the optionee.
What that is is more of a listing agreement dressed up like an option, it's pure horesfeathers.
So, I can see any state regulator considering that "option" as a disguised listing and brokering if that optionee is not a licensee and even if they had a license, there would likely be other issues, such as a net listing and brokering requirements. Not something folks need to try and do!
Typical guru stuff! I feel another blog coming.
Only Nick can address why those documents ended up in his report, if you would Nick you might address that.
Unrelated to the report (educational information) but related to such activities;
The FTC has new expanded powers and they are using them, they nailed a guru teaching how to avoid foreclosure, short sale issues, heavily fined, put out of business and other charges pending.
So, my question to Nick, having been in this arena recently, why aren't these gurus nailed for their advertising ploys of misinformation like the other instructor advocating illegal conduct? At one time, I had powers of arrest, I'd love to slap cuffs on some of these gurus! :)
- Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes10y
Thanks @Bill Gulley and @Account Closed for the input. Protecting the public from unscrupulous and dishonest practices is an ongoing battle.
- Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes10y
John, an ongoing battle, it sure is. Between the uniformed and the intentional abusers and toss in those in denial, the industry is plagued with public chaos. I just posted in another forum where it appears we have an intentional abuser as his advice can no longer be chalked up to being misinformed and the guy seems to be running a school! Another black eye in the industry. :)
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes10y
Great stuff thank you for posting.
It would be great if all new members of BP who want to wholesale were always directed to threads like this as opposed to continually being told wholesaling is how to get into the biz. and make a living.
- Real Estate Investor · Whiteland, IN · Member since 2014 · 54 posts · 20 votes10y
@Account Closed mentioned, I am still struggling with learning the basics of all topics real estate investing. At this point I am still trying to get a handle on the general concept of wholesaling. I am slowly getting there.
Nick, feel free to interject any specifics about Ohio law and what activities are permissible. To me it appears that the only way to "wholesale" in Ohio is to actually buy the property and then sell later it at a higher price.
At this time I have no intent of buying properties in Ohio, wholesale or otherwise. Therefore, it is not critical that I learn about specific Ohio laws at this time. However, I can be in Ohio in an hour and a half so that may change in the future and I would need to know the rules of the game in a hurry then.
Thanks again everyone.
- Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes10y
Originally posted by @Jeff James:
@Account Closed mentioned, I am still struggling with learning the basics of all topics real estate investing. At this point I am still trying to get a handle on the general concept of wholesaling. I am slowly getting there.
Nick, feel free to interject any specifics about Ohio law and what activities are permissible. To me it appears that the only way to "wholesale" in Ohio is to actually buy the property and then sell later it at a higher price.
At this time I have no intent of buying properties in Ohio, wholesale or otherwise. Therefore, it is not critical that I learn about specific Ohio laws at this time. However, I can be in Ohio in an hour and a half so that may change in the future and I would need to know the rules of the game in a hurry then.
Thanks again everyone.
Jeff, you need to learn the basics of real estate first, then you'll understand all the strategies, RE transactions are fairly simple, it's understanding why you do something or not do it that you need to recognize. RE is not a step by step matter, every deal is unique, learn to solve the problem within the rules. Before you can play any game, you need to understand the rules. Good luck :)
- Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes10y
@Bill Gulley et al,
Sorry DBPR will not allow filming of their presentation on what constitutes brokering without a license. There are a couple other issues I want to see if they will address one being putting a property under contract (licensed agents) and then trying to sell the contract. My question is whether that constitutes a net listing. As agents, we have a much larger target on our backs, can be fined, have our license suspended, or even revoked. Anyone wanting to attend can PM me for the info.
- Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes10y
It's a public meeting, when 3 or more are there, it's public, record it, don't film it. Then use the recording as your notes to report on the meeting. Check FL state law as to privacy, state authorities cannot hold private meetings with the public, pretty much uniform law as to government, check sunshine laws as well.
Ask your attorney, public servants cannot speak publicly and restrain recordings!!!!
Speaking to an association is public. Speaking to a group of state employees or certain official is not necessarily public.
Frankly, I would not have asked permission, of course they will say no,....... !!!!! :)
Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.