Why do I hate dealing with wholesalers?

Why do I hate dealing with wholesalers?

Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes

Lets be honest here. I don't like the wholesaling business. At least a certain segment of that business. There is nothing productive, or creative about taking a property, turning it around and selling it as it is for a profit. Having said that, I'm not completely against it either. In the land of "making a buck" it is understandable. We are,after all, a nation of cottage industries.

A recent even just cemented my opnion on wholesaling. Since I'm not here to ruin anybody's business, I will keep the names and addresses concealed.

I recently announced going to Birmingham, AL for another properties expedition (Formal announcement to come soon...) and I called all wholesaler who have properties in Birmingham to send me their list for consideration. I have buyers who could be interested.

I was contacted by one person who did send me a list, so I went over it and one property in particular caught my eye. Its address seemed really familiar. The asking price was closed to $40,000 which is way higher that what REOs or HUD is selling in that area. Much higher.

I went back and realize why this address was so familiar. Several months ago, that property was on the MLS and I actually made an offer on it. It was listed at first at $17,000. I made an offer on it for $12,000 which was rejected. Two weeks later, I noticed that the price had dropped to $10,500. I called my agent and asked him to put an offer for the asking price. He dug further and found out that the property was put up with a known internet auction house. I asked him to bid on it for that amount. He did and the bid was accepted. Contract was sent, which I signed it and then.... Silence. I didn't hear anything. My agent could not get the selling agent at all. Suddenly he gets an e-mail from the auction house telling him that the seller pulled the property out of the auction to bulk it with other properties and to be sold to a wholesaler.
They claimed that the biding was not binding.

Now, this property was not changed or improved since transacting to the wholesaler (In a matter of fact, every time I drive by it, I see a hand-written sign on it saying: "Rent this property with option to buy" ). I have no idea how they even get to that number that is closed to $40,000.

I don't mind wholesalers making a buck and some of you may say, Hey, this is a free market, nobody force you to buy it. True. However, the only thing that bugs me is, that this is preying on the innocents and those who are not really familiar with that particular market. Since it is not advertised to the public (It is not listed with any agent) I assume that this is aimed at other wholesaler or people like me.

2Reply
136 views

Most Popular Reply

Residential Real Estate Broker · Payson, AZ · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by Chris Trook:
Wholesaling is - buying and recasting a property for 70% or less of ARV.

Do you have a problem with that?



By who's definition?

I'm actually a little bit on Eddie's side here and can see where his true frustration lies.

The fact that he made several serious attempts to purchase this property only to have the rug pulled out from underneath him can in fact be frustrating.

The problem I see with all too many 'wholesalers' is they try to 'wholesale' a property at a much higher price thinking each deal is their goldmine deal.

I constantly get 'wholesalers' who email me about properties at a 'discount'. For instance, purchase price is 95k and retail is something like 115k, that's ridiculous!!!

I have a lot of bird dogs/wholesalers on the look out for Sub2/owner financing available deals and all too often they get told to pound sand when they try to include their 'fee' to the point where it no longer makes sense simply because I could buy a house retail and get it cheaper. After multiple attempts, they still don't get and they still don't make any money.

I certainly don't mind wholesalers making money, but when its so much that it becomes overpriced even at the retail level and they try to sell you on that crap, it does get old really really quick.

See this reply in the discussion

39 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Charles Whitaker:


    I agree with Chris wholeheartedly, besides, when you buy a product, mark the price up without changing the product you basically have the business plan of every major supermarket in the country. Are you mad at Walmart for having to pay $1.50 for a product that they paid only $0.75 for? Come on people, I think you hate BAD/INEXPERIENCED wholesalers, it should be left to the pro's anyhow.


    Again, I never claimed that wholesalers have no place in the real estate business. You pay additional $0.75 at Walmart so you don't have to go to China yourself. Also, there is a different between 100% profit on a product that cost $0.75 and a product that cost $10,000. In any rate, I would accept even 100% asking price in my case, but my beef is with more then 300%.
  • Real Estate Investor · Dale City, VA · Member since 2008 · 317 posts · 77 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
    Demos, Wholesalers are basically like realtors without license, guidelines, rule or regulations. Realtors also don't add value to the property, but they work under strict guideline and fees that are predetermined. The wholesale market is wild, unregulated and although I agree that someone who doesn't have a fair business practice would not survive for long, those bad apples effect the rest of the industry.

    I used to think I was like a Realtor without a license. I bring sellers and buyers together. Right? Wrong. I'm a buyer (a principal) on a legal contract. I can either actually buy a house first, as with a double close or just assign the contract to another investor or retail buyer. Realtors can't do that. Realtors are in an agent/pricipal relationship with brokers and they represent either the buyer or seller. Wholesalers have no agent/principal relationship with anyone and they only represent themselves.

    After I wrote my comment last night, I got really ticked off with your post, the more I thought about it. You seemed to lump all wholesalers together. Bigger Pockets is for all investors, Realtors, homeowners, etc. If you're going to make generalizations about an entire group of investors, please don't do it on Bigger Pockets.

  • Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by DemosL:
    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
    Demos, Wholesalers are basically like realtors without license, guidelines, rule or regulations. Realtors also don't add value to the property, but they work under strict guideline and fees that are predetermined. The wholesale market is wild, unregulated and although I agree that someone who doesn't have a fair business practice would not survive for long, those bad apples effect the rest of the industry.


    I used to think I was like a Realtor without a license. I bring sellers and buyers together. Right? Wrong. I'm a buyer (a principal) on a legal contract. I can either actually buy a house first, as with a double close or just assign the contract to another investor or retail buyer. Realtors can't do that. Realtors are in an agent/pricipal relationship with brokers and they represent either the buyer or seller. Wholesalers have no agent/principal relationship with anyone and they only represent themselves.

    After I wrote my comment last night, I got really ticked off with your post, the more I thought about it. You seemed to lump all wholesalers together. Bigger Pockets is for all investors, Realtors, homeowners, etc. If you're going to make generalizations about an entire group of investors, please don't do it on Bigger Pockets.



    Demos, I never said or even thought that wholesalers should be excluded from BP. You are definitely entitled to your opinion as much as I'm entitled to mine based on my experience. Read the title of the post again: "Why do I hate dealing with wholesaler?". This is strictly my experience. I didn't call for all people not to deal with wholesaler, I respect everyone's right to make a living and I was very careful to keep the identity of the wholesaler in question anonymous. I actually received an e mail from that wholesaler explaining that those properties were bought by a hedge fund and that wholesaler markets those properties for a fee which is absolutely legitimate.
    Having said that, lets call a spade - a spade.
    If you had the option to find seller A and buyer D and have A sell directly to D while you secure your profit, you would give up on B & C in a heart bit. But you cannot legally do it because you would be considered a realtor /broker. You would also not do it while securing any profit you want that way. That is why you resort to all other maneuvers which make the deal cumbersome but at the same time provide you the legal to secure your profit.
  • Real Estate Investor · Fort Collins, CO · Member since 2009 · 45 posts · 7 votes
    16y

    If someones going to be a wholesaler they need to understand its about volume not price. Leave the profits for the investor and take your fare share. Then move on to the next deal. Some people seem to let greed take hold and lose sight of how many deals they really could do if they only took say $5,000 out of a deal. That's my plan when I get into this area of investing.

  • Real Estate Investor · Fort Collins, CO · Member since 2009 · 45 posts · 7 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
    Realtors also don't add value to the property, but they work under strict guideline and fees that are predetermined.


    Real Estate Agents don't add value to the property but if you find the right one they add value to the transaction. Along with knowledge and local contacts. Also fee's are always up for negotiation. Strict guidelines are a good thing and from what I've seen in the education the Dept of Real Estate is having Brokers here in Colorado take, it might not be to long before wholesalers face strict guidelines too.

    I am a little bias since I am a Real Estate Broker :)

  • Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Shane Bryan:
    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
    Realtors also don't add value to the property, but they work under strict guideline and fees that are predetermined.


    Real Estate Agents don't add value to the property but if you find the right one they add value to the transaction. Along with knowledge and local contacts. Also fee's are always up for negotiation. Strict guidelines are a good thing and from what I've seen in the education the Dept of Real Estate is having Brokers here in Colorado take, it might not be to long before wholesalers face strict guidelines too.

    I am a little bias since I am a Real Estate Broker :)


    True Shane, but the same can be said about a good wholesaler who understand his /her business. If a wholesaler brings a good deal to the table which the buyer could not get otherwise, and at the same time understands the buyer's needs, that how the wholesaler adds value to his/ her deal while increasing the business and retaining clientele. The compression that I made was that while a broker /realtor has to be licensed and work under certain rules and guideline, there is nothing regulating the wholeale business.
  • Real Estate Investor · Long Beach, CA · Member since 2008 · 13 posts · 0 votes
    16y

    Sorry guys but I am an investor and a wholesaler, and willing to defend the wholesaler. In all actuallity it sounds like his agent did something wrong in his bidding process, his bid should have been binding. Here is an example of one of my recent wholesale deals. I purchased an reo from bank for $28,000, needing $10,000 repair, with an As is value of $158,000, ARV of $200,000. I sold it for $35,000, now talk about gouging, they did $8,750 worth of repairs and have house listed at $165,000. WOW!! The wholesaler has to do all the leg work finding properties, all research, all the negotiating and paperwork required to deal with the bank, title co. etc, then hand the investor everything all wrapped up. I've been on the investor side and all I had to do was sign and pay.

  • Wholesaler · Amarillo, TX · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 659 votes
    16y

    I like how Shane shared it. Yes, a good wholesaler may not add value to a property but they do add value to a transaction. Does a title agent, insurance agent, inspector, appraiser, or attorney add any value to your property? If you bought a property that didn't have clear title, your property could be worthless. If it burned down and you had no insurance, it would be worthless. My point is that many of the non-physical aspects to a "property" are what give it value or at least retain its value.

    A wholesaler CAN add tremendous value to a transaction.

    Now does that mean all or even most wholesalers will add any value to any transaction you might do with them? NO!!!!!!

    Yes, its true. MOST wholesalers suck and are a waste of your time.

    Same thing with realtors. MOST realtors suck, too.

    Does that mean we rant and rave about how realtors suck? Well sometimes, but we always end it with how there are some out there that are incredible assets.

    I have personally sold investors properties where they made over $20,000 in profit. I would say that investor felt like I added value to the transaction, to his life, his pocket book, and his investing career.

    The value that is added is obviously going to be based on the skill and experience of who you are doing business with. With the circumstances of wholesaling having a neon sign over its head blinking NEWBIES WELCOME, I don't think you are going to find value with most wholesalers. But that does not mean that there aren't wholesalers out there that could add tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars of value to YOUR pocketbook.

    Either way if you buy a property from a wholesaler at an above retail price, then the wholesaler is a fool but you are an even bigger one.

    Obviously, learn how to assess what a deal is or someone will take you to the cleaners, and it probably won't even be a wholesaler who does it. A realtor or even a homeowner will do it to you just the same. Just because the homeowner tells me that their property is a great deal for an investor doesn't mean I buy it.

    To get mad at someone because they marked up a property that you could have bought for cheaper seems to point to your dislike for a Free Market economy. Even if it wasn't on a national list from a hedgefund owner, anyone of us has every right to buy anything we want for an agreed upon price and resell it for whatever we can get somebody to agree to buy it for. That's called Capitalism, and its not always pretty.

    Sorry you got beat on that deal, but what will really burn you, Eddie, is if he actually sells it for that much. :D

    That's what happened to me. I was battling with another wholesaler over a package of rental houses in the hood. It was five houses for about $90,000. I figured I could wholesale them for about $110,000 either as a package or if I had to I would break them down. They were a good deal at $110,000 and someone could make some good cash flow numbers on them. The gross rents would be around $3,000 but a couple of them were vacant and needed work. The other investor ended up getting the contract and started marketing them for $180,000. I remember I almost fell out of my chair when I saw his sell number. Well some idiot came along and "negotiated" him down to $160,000. Now let me say it didn't bother me how much the wholesaler made on the deal, what bothered me is that at those numbers the houses would NEVER cash flow. And they didn't. Two years later he got foreclosed on and an experienced investor bought them from the lender for around $110,000.

    The wholesaler is not actually in the business anymore. He's working for one of the big national guru companies now, training newbies around the country how to screw people. Either way I didn't feel sorry for the investor who bought them. Whenever you let anyone else make your financial decisions for you, you are in for trouble. Its not about what your wholesaler, realtor, banker, appraiser, friend, or father thinks about the deal that matters. Its all about what YOU think about the deal after doing your due diligence and taking the time to learn what is and what is not a deal.

    As for Chris' statement about ARV in rental areas, they still have an ARV. Even if its based off of rent multipliers, cap rates, or cash flow, there is still a value that the market will dictate for that property. Now it may be what an investor will pay for the property based on the cash flow when its fixed up and rented out, but that is still an ARV. Now 70% minus repairs is not the proper way to assess an investor price but nonetheless ARV exists for rental areas also.

  • Wholesaler · Amarillo, TX · Member since 2008 · 369 posts · 75 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Chris Trook:
    Wholesaling is - buying and recasting a property for 70% or less of ARV.

    It seems as though "or less" has been overlooked a few times.

    And, I'm not sure what you mean, Ryan, about it not being the proper way to assess an investor price.

    Maybe some of you are missing the point, and that is, if a wholesaler brings an investor a deal that has, at least, 30% equity after having accounted for repairs, then would that be a good deal, as opposed to, a deal that is marked up well above ARV and calling it a wholesale deal?

  • Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Ryan Webber:
    Sorry you got beat on that deal, but what will really burn you, Eddie, is if he actually sells it for that much. :D



    Since I know that particular property so well, I'm willing to bet my entire portfolio in Birmingham that, this property will never sell in its current condition for that price .. :nono:
    ... in second thought, suckers never die, they just being replaced by new ones...
  • Real Estate Investor · Dayton, OH · Member since 2009 · 145 posts · 35 votes
    16y

    Eddie, I actually agree with you on your first post. I wholesale when I can. I'll tell you that whoever is doing the wholesaling there is being greedy. In my opinion the wholesaler is there to bring deals to people who are gonna rent out or flip the property. Maybe there are no other investors that this person thinks he can find so he is trying to get rid of them on his own.

    I can tell you that that kind of wholesaling comes back to bite you in the a$$ later when you really need to make a deal. I've got a guy here who is the prime example. He jacked up his prices, way up for years. Then when he fell off his horse it was hard luck getting back in the game.

    Here, houses are very cheap. I saw one listed a few months ago for like $2,500. Nice One bedroom in a half way decent area. Investors here snap those up quick. This guy couldn't even get that.

    He drove his prices up for so long on his investors, that when he dropped off the scene and his contacts found that they were being had, they stopped dealing with him altogether. I don't know what he is doing now, I think door to door sales or something.

    The point is, wholesaling is not here to make a million, it is just here as assistance to the guys who are doing the bigger investing. I believe it is something to get you in the door to real estate.

    When you jack up the prices like that and cut everyone else out, sure you can make money, but in the long run you are hurting everyone involved with real estate. Just tack a few on for your time and effort and move on... the wholesaler has made a little dough, and the investor is still getting a great deal that he maybe would not have found otherwise.

    Holding a property and trying to sell and jacking up prices is really all a waste of time. I would rather have 5 or 10 quick $5,000 profits than one or two houses that I am marketing for sale to rent-to-owners for a larger profit.

    Did you try making contact with the current owner and letting him know you are an investor?

    I thought wholesaling was supposed to be a "Git 'er dunn" situation.

  • Wholesaler · Amarillo, TX · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 659 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Chris Trook:
    And, I'm not sure what you mean, Ryan, about it not being the proper way to assess an investor price.

    Landlords don't normally buy based on equity. They buy based on cash flow. Just because a property is 30% under ARV does not mean its a good rental. It does not mean it will cash flow. Not to say that investors looking for rentals don't factor in equity position, but if someone is focused on long term holdings, cash flow is the name of the game not equity.

    So if you are basing your sell price of a rental property on 70% of ARV you are missing the point of a rental. That's a rehab to retail formula, not a landlord formula.

    I once bought a nice fourplex for FULL retail value solely because of the cash flow. The seller was offering incredible terms on seller financing that gave me a very nice ROI. I ended up clearing $800 cash flow per month the first year and I was only $5000 out of pocket on the deal.

    Point being it was an excellent rental for me even though there was NO equity in the deal. Not to say that its common to have good cash flow without the equity, but the point is that equity and cash flow are two separate contexts of investing. Yes, you will commonly find them together, but that is not always the case.

    A rehabber focuses on equity. A landlord focuses on cash flow.

  • Wholesaler · Amarillo, TX · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 659 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
    Originally posted by Ryan Webber:
    Sorry you got beat on that deal, but what will really burn you, Eddie, is if he actually sells it for that much. :D



    Since I know that particular property so well, I'm willing to bet my entire portfolio in Birmingham that, this property will never sell in its current condition for that price .. :nono:
    ... in second thought, suckers never die, they just being replaced by new ones...

    Sad but true.

  • Wholesaler · Amarillo, TX · Member since 2008 · 369 posts · 75 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Ryan Webber:
    Now 70% minus repairs is not the proper way to assess an investor price

    This is what threw me for a loop. I consider investors to be rehabbers, landlords, and those looking to owner carry. Usually, when I find a deal using that formula one of those three types of investors will be interested.

    But usually not another wholesaler! :oops:

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.