Pursuing Bird Dogging Legally

Pursuing Bird Dogging Legally

Yonkers, NY · Member since 2017 · 506 posts · 95 votes

  Hi everyone, my name is Michael and I'm a 15 year old from New York. Over the past year or so I've been trying to get into real estate but there's always a problem with either the strategy or my age. I looked into BirdDogging in the past but there were two main problems that I came across:

1) The legalities of it 

2) Ensuring that I get compensated for my work

  So I've been thinking day and night on ways to get around these roadblocks and I think I came up with a good method and I will share it with you guys with hopes that you guys will be able to tell me wether or not this will work and if it's legal.

   According to the RESPA law people bird dogging can't get payed a commission or fee after a deal closes because you have to technically be a licensed  agent or realtor in order to get payed like that. So this would make getting payed as a bird dog once a deal is closed illegal. 

So I was thinking and searching around for ways to get around this as a bird dog and this is what I came up with (and this may be wrong that's why i'm asking you guys). So what I would pretty much do is get payed on a per lead basis regardless if they close on the deal or not. I would get skip traced leads and I would either call them myself or get a VA to do it for me. Then if we find a person who is interested in selling I would get some general info about the property and leave the negotiation, due diligence, etc all up to the investor, I would provide the investor with general information like bed/bath, repairs needed, condition, but not information like the address or phone number yet. So from there if there's an investor that is interested in learning some more about the property I will get an NDA to make sure that I get payed and everything goes smoothly. I saw online that even though i'm still under 18, I can still sign an NDA. So in the NDA we would agree that I would get payed X amount when I provide the information on the lead to the investor (Keep in mind that these are leads that would be willing to sell, not just any random lead). This method would keep me from breaking any laws and it would ensure that i get payed when I'm bird dogging.

  From what I know (which isn't much) this would work and be legal in New York and New Jersey, I will also make sure that I get payed with the NDA, and this will all still work given that I'm a minor. Let me know what your thoughts are on this method and wether or not this would actually work and if it doesn't what I can do to get around this considering the conditions I'm under. Thank you in advance for all of the help, I really appreciate it!

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Investor · Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
8y

@Account Closed You certainly can run a lead generation business without running afoul licensing laws. You will however need a parent or guardian to enter into any contracts on your behalf until your 18. You also need to be careful of violating the Do Not Call rules since you plan on calling them.

I have heard of a telemarketing business in New York that runs surveys and sells the leads to realtors. Their survey goes something like this

"Hello, this is Michael with New Yorker Surveys. We're conducting a survey of home owners in your neighborhood today, do you have a moment to answer 3 quick questions for me?"

"Sure."

"Great! Do you currently own or rent your home?"

"I own it."

"How long have you lived at your current residence?"

"About 10 years."

"Do you have any plans to sell or move within the next year?"

"Possibly."

"Thank you for your time!"

They then send 3 of the 'possible' or 'yes' leads to local realtors as a sample of the type of leads they generate and offer to sell them a neighborhood of 2,000 houses which they will call through every 3 months for $500/month.

Hope that helps or at least gives you some additional ideas about the direction your business venture could go. And good luck!

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  • Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    8y
    Lol this is funny. Stick to a technique and get good at it. Just statistically speaking finding enough deals bird dogging to actually make money is unlikely, that’s why I mentioned the other stuff. Bird dogger finds deal. Gives to wholesaler, who gives it to flipper who gives it to retail buyer. 4 parties involved. You better be finding those deals at 40-50 percent ARV.
  • Yonkers, NY · Member since 2017 · 506 posts · 95 votes
    8y
    @Caleb Heimsoth I’m not doing bird dogging anymore, it will be something different. I was talking about it inside of the thread.
  • Yonkers, NY · Member since 2017 · 506 posts · 95 votes
    8y
    @Eric Adobo alright, no problem. I understand what you were thinking then because I’m not doing bird dogging anymore it’s just that the title may be a bit deceiving.
  • Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    8y

    @Account Closed  which then goes back to what I also said about sticking to a technique 

  • Yonkers, NY · Member since 2017 · 506 posts · 95 votes
    8y
    @Caleb Heimsoth I went away from bid dogging because you guys told me to get away from it so I thought about it and decided to stop doing it. Now I’m doing this other thing it’s just that the title for the post may be a bit decieving but if you read the whole thread you’ll see that I’m not doing bird dogging anymore.
  • Yonkers, NY · Member since 2017 · 506 posts · 95 votes
    8y
    @Caleb Heimsoth yeah I will be sticking to this teachnique because there’s really no restrictions or anything that I can see that would be able to stop me from doing this. I plan on sticking to this and mastering it as long as there’s nothing to stop me legally.
  • Yonkers, NY · Member since 2017 · 506 posts · 95 votes
    8y
    @Joshua Mondragon I will be starting pretty much a telemarketing business pretty much. Pm me if you’d like to talk some more, I’d be glad to connect with you!
  • Lancaster, PA (lancaster pa) · Member since 2018 · 11 posts · 8 votes
    8y
    Great wholesaling is mentioned , and I can’t see comments again.
  • Lancaster, PA (lancaster pa) · Member since 2018 · 11 posts · 8 votes
    8y
    Wholesaling is actually what I’m pursuing currently, so that’s why I say that.
  • Yonkers, NY · Member since 2017 · 506 posts · 95 votes
    8y
    @Joshua Mondragon oh you don’t see that comment I just sent you? I was just saying that I’m going t be staring a telemarketing business. If you want to talk some more, pm me and hopefully the messages work better there and we can talk some more also!
  • Yonkers, NY · Member since 2017 · 506 posts · 95 votes
    8y
    @Joshua Mondragon I can pm you if you’d like if it doesn’t work on your end.
  • Member since 2018 · 509 posts · 211 votes
    8y

    All that bird 🐶 ging passion wasn't passion at all.

    I feel so used n abused. 

  • Yonkers, NY · Member since 2017 · 506 posts · 95 votes
    8y
    @Eric Adobo what?
  • Yonkers, NY · Member since 2017 · 506 posts · 95 votes
    8y
    @Eric Adobo I don’t feel used or abused because it was a passion for real estate that I was just doing for fun. I just switched because you guys advised me to do so for my own benefit so I ended up doing something more efficient now. That’s all I’m doing.
  • Attorney / Broker · Member since 2018 · 29 posts · 30 votes
    8y

    @Account Closed you should seek an attorney who is specifically knowledgeable about brokerage law in NY and NJ (or wherever you intend to operate). One of your earlier posts suggests a business model that could very well be considered the practice of real estate. Unlicensed wholesalers and real estate investors frequently operate in the gray. Many end up obtaining licenses to avoid exposure to what here in Florida can be charged as a third degree felony. 

    While I realize that you are too young to get the license, it would be a shame if your ambition results in conduct prohibiting you from ever being able to obtain one. A local Realtor board should be able to refer you to a lawyer with the skills to steer you clear of trouble.

    Good luck and keep in mind that without legal training and experience, you are not equipped to properly interpret a body of law - don't be too smart for your own good.

    This is not legal advice and does not create an attorney client relationship.

  • Member since 2018 · 509 posts · 211 votes
    8y

    What are you going to tele-market. Tupper-ware? Mary-Kay cosmetics?

  • Yonkers, NY · Member since 2017 · 506 posts · 95 votes
    8y
    @Robert Borr yeah I will definitely be in touch with an attorney near me. Also, I won’t be doing bird dogging anymore it’ll be more like a telemarketing business were I get payed up front then do some marketing for the investor. That should be legal because there’s a ton of companies that do that without a liscense, but I will still be in touch with an attorney!
  • Yonkers, NY · Member since 2017 · 506 posts · 95 votes
    8y
    @Eric Adobo I’m going to be marketing for real estate agents and possibly investors down the line. I will be pretty much generating potential leads for them and I will be getting an upfront fee and I will provide them with leads when I market for them. That’s pretty much what I’ll be doing.
  • Lancaster, PA (lancaster pa) · Member since 2018 · 11 posts · 8 votes
    8y
    @Michael Kantar I’m able to see messages now, the problem was that my app wasn’t updated. Thus the different versions of the app was what was causing the “glitch”.
  • Specialist · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 852 votes
    8y

    @Account Closed,

    Way to think things through young man!! 

    Here is the problem, the laws are written on EVERYTHING so the government can shut anybody down at any time for any reason. Nothing is black and white. 

    With that said, you can most certainly get paid for leads. You can not legally sign any docs under 18 or they are not valid. 

    My son started buying houses and doing deals at 13. He has since done 7 deals in real estate and another 6 or 7 in collectable cars. I have to sign everything for his LLC until he turns 18 in a few months. (would be happy to connect the 2 of you if you want to talk to him)

    Sorry, I got off track, LOL. In short, if you are not negotiating contracts and talking with buyers and sellers, being paid as a marketing company is gonna be hard to call illegal. 

    Good luck in all you do!! I have a feeling you are gonna go far!

  • Rental Property Investor · Rohnert Park, CA · Member since 2014 · 306 posts · 160 votes
    8y
    @MichaelKantar Some of your posts are blank, sorry if this was already discussed. There is another method you could pursue to find deals. Drive around the neighborhood where you want to buy. C-class areas are good to start in. Find houses with dented garage doors, peeling paint, lots of newspapers piled in the driveway, or even tall grass. Then find the owners by looking in the county records. Then mail letters to them saying “I buy houses in any condition”. Get a google number to put on your marketing letters. Search BP for scripts of taking to sellers, so you are ready when someone calls you. Find your local REI meeting through Meetup- go there and talk to investors to ask them if they would do a JV on a flip with you if you bring them the house. You can work a deal to get 10% - 20% of the profit when the investor sells. If you have a good deal, it will be easy to find an investor to partner with you. That is the same concept as bird dogging, or wholesaling, but you can be more involved in the process. You eventually want to flip houses, right? This is the best way to learn! Your enthusiasm is wonderful to see!
  • Lancaster, PA (lancaster pa) · Member since 2018 · 11 posts · 8 votes
    8y
    @Cheryl Vargas Update the application, it should fix the problem of not being able to read posts.
  • Real Estate Agent · Tacoma, WA · Member since 2017 · 20 posts · 11 votes
    8y

    Even the NDA is void because you arent of legal age (18). For that, you'll need your parents to sign for you, even then that can be sticky on who the contract binds.

    But honestly, do what @Doug P. recommends (which is very clever), or better yet, do what my boy Gary Vaynerchuk preaches and learn to have micro-speed and macro-patients. 

    You're 15. And as you mentioned, you're really strapped on opportunities because you cant get your license and you cant sign contracts. 

    Why not just intern for someone that's killing it now, so when you do turn 18, you can get your license and start killing it too. You have to work to learn before you can work to earn. 

    I wouldn't stress about this situation too much because.... you're 15... Not 50. You're already killing it because 99% of other kids your age are off watching porn and smoking weed. 

    Just stay determined and absorb as much information as you can.

     Gotta stay patient.

  • Lacombe, LA · Member since 2018 · 6 posts · 3 votes
    8y
    I Like how you are weighing your options as a 15 year old. My wife and I just recently got into rentals and we have a friend that does this for us. We happily pay her a fee every time we close on a deal. I understand you may want to do this with multiple investors so u will probably have to have contracts so they don’t fail to compensate you. Although I do believe that if you find a few trustworthy investors that you won’t have any problem getting paid for your efforts! I wish you all the luck in the future,you are on the right track!
  • Yonkers, NY · Member since 2017 · 506 posts · 95 votes
    8y
    @Rob Gillespie sorry about the late reply, myphone died last night and I was out wIth family. Also, I’m only going to be selling leads by doing a survey to learn a bit about their property and if they’d like to sell or not. And yes, I‘d love to get in touch wIth your son!
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