Trying to understand "wholesaling"

Trying to understand "wholesaling"

Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

I usually avoid any thread that falls under the “wholesaling” category because it always seems like a bunch of nonsensical posts from wannabe “investors” who have never done a deal. Half the people make it sound like you’re going to walk in with nothing to your name, make a deal with someone for half what the property is worth, and then flip it to a cash buyer and make thousands for having nothing invested. It just sounds too good to be true.

Any “wholesale” deal that I’ve done has involved me making a deal to buy a property, going to closing with my own cash, purchasing the property (as I agreed to do), and then re-selling it to another person. I’ve never made a deal with someone to buy their property (with my fingers crossed behind my back), and then gone out and tried to find a buyer so I could make the deal happen. When I tell someone that I will buy their property, I follow through. It’s not a maybe.

There was a real estate agent in my area that used to do a ton of business and then he disappeared. It was like he fell through a trap door. After many months, he contacted my friend with a “killer deal” on a ten-unit apartment building. It turns out that he was trying to do a no money wholesale deal and make $40K on the transaction. My friend told me that if he did buy the building, he would “cut this bottom feeder out of the deal” and go directly to the owner. I agreed that I would do the same thing and get it for a cheaper price.

Is there some late night guru out there preaching this wholesaling with no money nonsense? Do these deals actually go through? If so, it would seem to me that it would just be a starting point. Once you did some deals and banked some cash, you would get better deals by making solid offers.

Can anyone who’s done deals (other than the kind I have done) post on here and walk me through all of the steps. I’m curious how it all works (or doesn’t work).

Does the seller know that you’re not the end buyer? If so, why would they deal with you? Are you lying to the seller and saying that you’re the buyer, only to try and find an actual buyer? If so, what if you don’t find one?

I’m not trying to pick on wholesalers. It’s just that the ones I read about seem like “all flash, no cash” or as they say in Texas, “big hat, no cattle”. The whole thing seems very dubious. Maybe someone can explain it better.

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Jerry PuckettPro Member
Wholesaler · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
13y
Originally posted by Rob K:
I usually avoid any thread that falls under the “wholesaling” category because it always seems like a bunch of nonsensical posts from wannabe “investors”

And I usually avoid answering a post that begins this way....I just don't understand all the angst, and sometimes down right hostility towards wholesaling...from all of you Real investors.

But just for you Rob....

Apparently you have done a deal where you purchase a potential rehab property and thought to yourself...."hmmm, I think I'll put it up for sale and see if I can turn a quick profit without actually putting the money and effort into a rehab" I believe that's a common practice among you Real businessmen, to maximize profit and minimize expense. Wholesaling, the way that seems to upset you so, takes that one step further. If you can turn a profit on the contract, without the expense of closing and re marketing, why wouldn't you?

Seems you have been able to negotiate some good deals and put them under contract, so what difference does it make to you whether you close or sell the contract to someone who will? That's all this no money wholesaling is: being able to locate motivated sellers, negotiating a good deal, selling that deal to someone who wants to rehab (or whatever) at a price that is attractive to them.

Originally posted by Bill G.:
I suppose in Detroit you might have an inventory to work with but what puts a newbie in the business ahead of seasoned investors in locating what they want seems to be a stretch to me.

It's called marketing Bill. That's what sets a wholesaler apart from the largest majority of you Real guys. Wholesalers know how to market to distressed sellers...they go out and find the deals. Others wait for deals to come to them, and that includes folks who watch the MLS (How's that workin' for you guys lately?) A wholesalers risk is in the money and time spent on marketing and talking to hundreds of people..it's not quite no money.

What sets an experienced wholesaler apart from a beginner is all this business about a buyers list. I have 3 investors on my list who will buy 98% of what I put under contract. I need more buyers like I need a hole in the head. And yet many who wouldn't even talk to me when I first started out came sniffing around when the MLS dried up. I have no need to lie to a seller.

Originally posted by Rob K:
My friend told me that if he did buy the building, he would “cut this bottom feeder out of the deal” and go directly to the owner. I agreed that I would do the same thing and get it for a cheaper price.

Lastly, to the OP and anyone else who may be looking on....the above behavior, going around someone to grab a deal? If that doesn't make you a bottom feeder, I don't know what does. Shame on you.....go find your own deal if you're able.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Real Estate Investor · Buzzards Bay (Bourne), MA · Member since 2012 · 208 posts · 28 votes
    13y

    This is just ridiculous! Yes there are a lot of bad wholesalers out there because they were taught incorrectly or they are they just don't take it seriously and think it is easy or it is a way to get started in the business with little or no money. I could go on and on..... and the term wannabe is nothing more than someone wanting to get more out of life through whatever field they are trying to accomplish that in. I believe we all started that way so let's encourage those wannabe's with good information here at BP.
    I have said this many times wholesaling is no different than any other business and should be treated so with honesty and integrity and doing the right thing. Wholesaling does not make you dishonest. YOU make you dishonest period. I am not a wholesaler but I purchase properties from wholesaler that know what they are doing period. Why bash wholesalers even though we know there are a lot of unqualified ones out there. As an investor I get sick and tired of hearing all the crap about investors being the bad guy.
    You don't like and I don't like it & I am not backing down from saying I am a house flipper even though I invest as well for long term passive income. I thought about it then decided I know what I do is good for the economy & just can't worry about what other's think. There are plenty of dishonest & fraudulent investors out there as well but what industries doesn't have there share. Wholesaling is no different. So why are people here on BP so outraged with wholesalers? Thanks for all the wholesaler who defended your business model & I know how you must feel but I am one that supports your efforts and know how hard you work to get a deal under contract & that is why I am willing to pay for that service when done correctly. I do truly appreciate your business so keep bringing the deals. I get new wholesalers that call me that in many cases were sold a bag of goods for training because after talking with them about the "deal" I realize quickly they are doing it wrong. Instead of discouraging them I try to give them advice and keep them motivated to pursue their dream. We all should be doing that to keep the deal flow coming instead of figuring out how we cut them out. I can't imagine someone bringing me a deal and then going around them to buy it. I have had more than one chance to do that because a deal was brought to me by I guess a wannabe wholesaler who didn't even have a signed contract. I could of easily cut him & not paid his fee as promised. I had no contract with him but my word is my word. So remember only YOU make you dishonest.

    Sorry for the rant but I guess I wasn't the only one

  • Real Estate Investor · FL · Member since 2011 · 586 posts · 360 votes
    13y

    The funniest part about this entire thread is how so many posters have put all wholesalers in a box together and generalized them as one. Making the assumption that all wholesalers don't have the ability to close on properties with their own cash is quite obnoxious. If you don't see the value that a good wholesaler adds then you haven't met a good wholesaler yet.

    I never put a property under contract unless I know I can sell it or can close on it myself. The only time I back out of a contract is if something is found out after signing the contract. For example, I had one earlier this year where the guy called me a couple of days after signing the contract because he wanted to make sure I knew there was a sink hole under the house... He forgot to mention that before and thus I had to cancel.

    I put a condo under contract the second week of this past December in a county about an hour away from me. It was a good deal and I knew I could wholesale it or close on it myself. Since it was such a busy time of year I decided just to close on it and do the rehab. My ideal situation though would have been to simply wholesale the property but I knew I could make money either way.

    Personally, I can do one thing very good or a lot of things average. I have found that if my sole focus is wholesaling, I do it very good and I make a lot of money. If I consistently added rehabbing or any other similar business to what I do, then my wholesaling business would suffer.

    If I started a thread about how all rehabbers cut corners on all of their projects just to save a buck, real estate agents are lazy and lack creativeness, or how all landlords are really just slumlords it would make me look pretty ignorant.

  • Wholesaler · Orange County, CA · Member since 2012 · 53 posts · 9 votes
    13y

    I have a question regarding profits for the Wholesaler (so I have the right frame of mind). Right now my train of thought is if you make more money on a property you should pass a little bit to the investor. (for multiple reasons, rapport and building a good name for myself long-term being the biggest).

    Crazy Example: You land a massive home run and lock a property up for 50% with very minor repairs.

    My understanding is most wholesaler's would see this an a perfect opportunity for the double-close to hide their profits, which is fine in my opinion. My questions are if the wholesaler opted to assign the contract, what is your thought process when seeing how much the wholesaler makes? What is a profit ratio between the wholesaler and investor? I know all-in figures should be ~75%-80% (in California) but should that number stay the same when the wholesaler is potentially making 20k+ on a deal?

    Sorry for the long post but I'm interested in seeing people's opinions on this.

  • Real Estate Investor · FL · Member since 2011 · 586 posts · 360 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Michael Spencer:
    I have a question regarding profits for the Wholesaler (so I have the right frame of mind). Right now my train of thought is if you make more money on a property you should pass a little bit to the investor. (for multiple reasons, rapport and building a good name for myself long-term being the biggest).

    Crazy Example: You land a massive home run and lock a property up for 50% with very minor repairs.

    My understanding is most wholesaler's would see this an a perfect opportunity for the double-close to hide their profits, which is fine in my opinion. My questions are if the wholesaler opted to assign the contract, what is your thought process when seeing how much the wholesaler makes? What is a profit ratio between the wholesaler and investor? I know all-in figures should be ~75%-80% (in California) but should that number stay the same when the wholesaler is potentially making 20k+ on a deal?

    Sorry for the long post but I'm interested in seeing people's opinions on this.

    I don't think it matters what your profit is. I approach each deal wanting a win-win-win. A win for the owner, a win for me, and a win for my end buyer.

    My average profit is around $5,800 per deal but I have had some deals make $20k+ and have lost money on some deals (yes I brought money to closing in order to get the house sold).

    It is rare to have a seller give you their asking price but every now and then it does happen. I had a seller once give me a price $50k lower than what I was planning to offer for her 5 properties. I was planning on selling each property separately for $5k hits on each. I COULD have turned a $25k deal into a $75k deal, but I told her it was too low and I gave her the offer I already had in my head. All 5 of the properties were sold within 24 hours.

  • Wholesaler · Orange County, CA · Member since 2012 · 53 posts · 9 votes
    13y

    Braden C.

    Thanks for the info!

    What all-in rate do you usually shoot for when sending to your buyer's list and are there any situations when this number changes?

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Atlantic County, NJ · Member since 2012 · 514 posts · 209 votes
    13y

    Exactly Braden and LaCava!

    Here's one... It was a 3/2 townhouse full rehab in a bad neighborhood. It's a seriously long story but I'll make it quick. Seller wanted 60k$ I offered 10,500$. She said, no way... 3 months later calls me back and says ok. She tried other options but nothing worked because the amount of work it needed no retail buyer would buy it or had no knowledge on selling houses. House was empty and even had a squatter in there for a few years with no utilities haha. I got it under contract for 10,500$ listed it on CG two days later had a buyer sign my contract and sold it the following week for 14,100$ made a quick 3600$. Oh and I never even met the buyer... the house was 45 min away. My realtor/partner was amazed I made that kinda money on such a small sale. He would of had to sell a 200k house to make that profit margin after taxes, brokerage fees, monthly RE license fees and so on.

    This deal in actuality took a long time from start to finish but it was technically closed in 2 weeks

    To answer your question IMO, why I don't become a REA and earn an HONEST LIVING (lullz)! Because I'm not in the business to cater to first time home buyers that aren't happy with the paint in the living room or there is no stainless steel appliances (give me a break!). Or sit in a empty house on a sat/sun for hours waiting and hoping for someone to put an offer in. But if that's what you want to do then by all means go for it!

    I prefer to work from home.

    Michael spencer I'm going to close/assign a deal next week where I should make $20k and my buyer does not care one bit because I left a TON of meat on the bone for him.

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Jake Kucheck:
    I look at wholesalers as, in theory, exploiting a market inefficiency. They are able to find sellers, who for whatever reason, are willing to sell their properties for less than their true value. As such, they are able to provide a valuable product for an investor that is able to do what they are unable to do (close the deal with their own cash). Thus, they took a problem for everyone and turned it into a win-win-win situation. You know, in theory.

    The problem is that wholesalers don't know that they are supposed to be doing that. The gurus teach them how easy it can be, and so of course they try to manipulate the numbers into being attractive instead of finding attractive numbers to begin with. Sad, but true.

    Will some people be effective at doing this? Sure. Is it a respectable and profitable business model? Maybe. Is it investing? Not any more than selling used cars or snake oil is.

    I think wholesaling has its place, and when done properly, it can be a great market inefficiency to exploit. The trick is finding a wholesaler whom has done it properly. And there, I'll definitely agree with Rob K. Post your numbers wholesalers... we're all eager to see it in practice.

    Posted.

  • Broker, Investor, Property Restorer · Fox Point, WI · Member since 2012 · 288 posts · 120 votes
    13y

    I have never bought a deal from a wholesaler, but I'm not opposed to do so either, it just hasn't happened yet. As a rehabber for the most part (as well as a landlord and RE broker) I think there certainly is a place for wholesalers, but for me it would have to be one that I could trust 100%, both in their honesty and that they know what they are selling me as far as their numbers go. I know that there are a lot of homeowners out there who for a wide variety of reasons, would be ready and willing to let a property go for a price at which I as a rehabber could make a good profit if I were to fix it and resell it. Problem is that I don't have time to go out and find these deals because I'm too busy as it is with what I have going on right now, so there's where there is room for the wholesaler.

    Now, having said that, I would only deal with someone I'd trust to bring me accurate numbers, mainly on the cost of the rehab, which is not easy at all! My experience has taught me that the ONLY way someone can become an accurate estimator of what it will actually cost to rehab an entire house is from experience, and lots of it! That's why I always chuckle at the guru's selling their wholesaler courses, because you just cannot teach knowing what rehabs will cost, certainly not in a 12 hour course or whatever it is.

  • Real Estate Investor · Aurora, CO · Member since 2009 · 155 posts · 60 votes
    13y

    Very well said Mr LaCava.

    Wholesaling is a business and one to be takin seriously. It isn't a scam and it certainly isn't a hobby. In fact, a lot of "real investors" fail to understand that a profitable wholesaling business is the absolute best foundation to feed the other aspects of your real estate investing portfolio.
    You see, when I control houses, well, I'm in control! I can do what I want and multiple exit strategies are available to me. I started off rehabbing and have bought from Wholesalers and now I get to choose which houses I sell to other investors and which houses I keep for myself to do whatever with. What a great position to be in.

    True, there are bad Wholesalers, bad rehabbers, bad accountants, bad teachers..... I could go on and on. It does not mean they are doing anything morally wrong or illegal. So for Mr Gordon to question if its profitable, a good business model, etc is absolutely ludicrous. Everything you buy in your day to day life for the most part went through some form of Wholsaler before it got to you. Must not be profitable if so many people do it. It's part of business in all aspects of our lives.
    It's up to the people who choose to buy from a wholesaler to do their own due dilligence and decide what a good deal is FOR THEM. Just as you choose which Wholesalers then Retailers products to buy at the store. Not snake oil my dear diluted friend.
    Everyone's criteria for a good deal is different.
    I can sell a deal to a landlord that doesn't Have time to scour the MLS everyday for properties for 80 cents on the dollar and for him it's a good deal. He got a solid cash flow property to add to his lot and was able to focus on other important things in his life.

    A good wholesaler provides an invaluable service to all walks of investors and we not be quick to judge a man based on the business he chooses to operate as long as he is honest and transparent.
    P.S. Mr Gordon, I've made a 5 digit return this month in this questionably profitable business and its only Jan. 5. Judge for yourself....

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    Kyle,

    I think you are taking Jakes post as my own. I quoted him in reference to my thread "20k Wholesale Breakdown" we are in similar company.

    Cheers,

  • Real Estate Investor · Aurora, CO · Member since 2009 · 155 posts · 60 votes
    13y

    @Tim Gordon

    I do apologize Tim. I get so frustrated when I hear some of this garbage I should have seen the post was reposted but I was too busy defending the business!
    Carry on good sir! LOL

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    No problem at all. We all love what we do (or at least I hope so) and that means we should be quick to defend ourselves.

    The end of the day, its "a way" not "the" way for some of us its providing a great income and opportunities we would otherwise never see.

  • Real Estate Investor · Aurora, CO · Member since 2009 · 155 posts · 60 votes
    13y

    I guess the main point I wanted to drive home is that wholesaling is a foundation for everything else you do. It's a great platform. When I'm wholesaling properties to guys that I know are going to improve the neighborhood, give someone a great home to live and simply taking another step to improve the overall housing market. I AM INVESTING.
    Investing in people, the neighborhood, and the community. Wholesaling is a piece of the pie that makes up my investment world.
    Wholesaling isn't for just beginners who want to get involved in real estate. At least I don't think it should be perceived that way. Wholesaling plays in integral part in the investment world and I know a lot of rehabbers who wouldn't be doing nearly the number of deals they wanted(needed) to without this valuable sector of the business alive and in full force.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    13y

    Michael, it is simply human nature for one investor to see some massive profit for the other and think, damn, I should be getting this for less. With that said, if it is priced right so that the end investor has the needed spread, they should really not concern themselves with the profit of the wholesaler, although t obviously happens. Key is if it is priced rig and if the wholesaler has enough investors on their buyers list. If they do, they will likely get multiple interest on it and then when one balks at their profit, the wholesaler can simply say, then don't buy it, any one of my other two offers in hand will! That usually shuts that door and the deal can move forward.

    Many of us rehabber a have run into bad wholesalers, but it is unfair to say that ALL wholesalers suck, it is simply not true. I don't brand myself as a wholesaler but I have wholesaled many times and did very well as did the rehab buyers of those deals.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Jerry Puckett:
    Wholesaling is a JOB. Just like being an Agent or Rehbber....also JOBS, not Investing. All require a steady stream of deals. Deals stop, job over.
    I have heard others say this very same thing, that rehab flipping or wholesaling is not "investing" but landlording is. I simply disagree with this for one reason and one reason only (with exception of the RE agent example - that is not investing).
    No matter what it is, if I "invest" money into anything, with the expectation of a return, I am "investing" regardless if it is passive or active. To me, a more appropriate term would be "passive investing" and "active investing", both of which are investing.

    If I invest $50k into a new business start up where I own and operate the business, yes I created a JOB, but I also "Invested".

  • Real Estate Investor · Aurora, CO · Member since 2009 · 155 posts · 60 votes
    13y

    I have money in every deal I do.
    I rehab wholesale and landlord.
    Multi dimensional my friend. The key to success.
    I can survive In Any market.
    A lot of short term capital gain and some Long term. But definitely investing.
    You have a very skewed view of things, so keep on investing buddy. You walk a higher path. LMFAO

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    13y

    Jake, I wanted to clarify something from your back and forth with Kyle. You stated you do not believe wholesaling is investing and I just wanted to clarify that if capital is invested, then I believe it is certainly investing. Now we all know it is possible to wholesale using no money of your own however, I would also argue that someone could theoretically buy and hold with OPM having none of their own money into the deal, but I would still consider that investing since the investor did use capital and took responsibility of that capital.

    This is just my opinion but I is how I consider the term investing.

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Costa Mesa, CA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 380 votes
    13y

    Actually we all agree on that... my issue is with the folks that have no money, don't intend to use money that they control, and still consider themselves to be, and represent themselves, as investors. Because they aren't.

  • Beaverton, OR · Member since 2012 · 41 posts · 23 votes
    13y

    This really just boils down to an argument over semantics: how you choose to use the word "invest" and how you are referring to the term "real estate."

    Here was my thought process on the matter:

    Is a wholesaler who flips one property for a profit, without using any of his own money on that particular transaction "investing in real estate?" Maybe. If your only problem with that scenario is that he's not using his own money, then I think that's a weak argument. First of all, zero is a number, and like it or not, zero can be used to calculate an "infinite ROI." Still disagree? Fine. But what if he invests some of his own money in the transaction? He then makes a calculable ROI. And if you go so far as to also count a wholesaler's marketing expenses as an investment, then pretty much all wholesalers make a calculable ROI, and they are technically investing. In the strictest sense of the word. So you still don't want to call that *real estate* investing? Okay fine. But what are they investing in? Their real estate business, no?

  • Beaverton, OR · Member since 2012 · 41 posts · 23 votes
    13y

    And I guess one could expand on that further, and argue that the wholesaler is certainly an investor of sorts, he is technically investing in the contract, or *control* of the property. So from that point I'd say you could call that... real estate contract investing. Or just real estate investing. Take your pick.

    Edit: I've officially given myself a headache.

  • Jerry PuckettPro Member
    Wholesaler · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    I think I'll just keep calling it a job and let everyone else believe whatever they like.

  • Real Estate Investor · Keller, TX · Member since 2011 · 118 posts · 39 votes
    13y

    I'd bet my paycheck that there are more "useless" real estate agents out there than there are wholesalers.

    Also, I think the title of this thread was disingenuous. You're obviously a pro and understand wholesaling just fine. It should have been titled "I'd like to prove my superiority by bashing on wholesalers for a bit"

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Rob K:
    ...

    Is there some late night guru out there preaching this wholesaling with no money nonsense? Do these deals actually go through? If so, it would seem to me that it would just be a starting point. Once you did some deals and banked some cash, you would get better deals by making solid offers.

    Can anyone who’s done deals (other than the kind I have done) post on here and walk me through all of the steps. I’m curious how it all works (or doesn’t work).

    Does the seller know that you’re not the end buyer? If so, why would they deal with you? Are you lying to the seller and saying that you’re the buyer, only to try and find an actual buyer? If so, what if you don’t find one?

    I’m not trying to pick on wholesalers. It’s just that the ones I read about seem like “all flash, no cash” or as they say in Texas, “big hat, no cattle”. The whole thing seems very dubious. Maybe someone can explain it better.

    The wholesalers who are responding are not fully answering Rob's OP; the excerpt I've quoted asks some specific questions. A few have posted about deals that have transpired, so that covers the "can it be done" part. But most have become defensive due to the skepticism in that post, yet Rob has asked you for info to convince him. Let's try to avoid the attacks and bickering and get into details, facts and explanations. Sell your approach to Rob ...

  • Landlord · Dallas, TX · Member since 2012 · 505 posts · 34 votes
    13y

    Steve Babiak I believe Jerry already answered those questions in full.

  • Jerry PuckettPro Member
    Wholesaler · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    My firm belief is that Rob and others dont actually wish to be sold. I gave it a shot and he seemed non plussed. The reason folks are getting defensive, I suspect, is that they feel attacked. This didn't start off friendly. I never have understood the hostility towards wholesalers, but it rears its head fairly regularly around here.

    I guess it must be endured to keep using the rockinest website on the planet. Shoot, most seem to be here to help. Those that aren't make themselves plain pretty quick.

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