Rental Property Investor · Poughkeepsie, NY (Hudson Valley Area) · Member since 2019 · 188 posts · 102 votes
Hey quick question. I pulled the subfloor up to sister up the joist and get the floor plumb but my contractor just reported that all the wood is deteriorating and falling apart. Is this something my insurance could cover? It’s a two family building built in 1910 and I owned it for 12 years. The contractor is assuming previous insect damage and rot from moisture. Only way to fix it is to reframe the floor and pour concrete around the foundation as the joist hangers are all falling apart and no wood left to bite into.
If I were in your shoes, I would hire a structural engineer to produce a report specifying the requisite repairs, then get an estimate from several different contractors.
Hey quick question. I pulled the subfloor up to sister up the joist and get the floor plumb but my contractor just reported that all the wood is deteriorating and falling apart. Is this something my insurance could cover? It’s a two family building built in 1910 and I owned it for 12 years. The contractor is assuming previous insect damage and rot from moisture. Only way to fix it is to reframe the floor and pour concrete around the foundation as the joist hangers are all falling apart and no wood left to bite into.
Ray, slow deterioration, insect damage and subsidence are not covered losses on a standard homeowners/landlord policy.
If it was a frozen pipe that burst and water went everywhere, causing the damage, then you would most likely have a covered claim (assuming you have Special Form Coverage)
Ray, if the existing foundation is solid and there is enough room (2-3") to support the joist end before hitting brick then it seems like sistering up every joist would be the easiest fix and most likely could be done without disrupting the finished space above.
I'd first grab a shopvac and clean up a few bays and see what your dealing with and post a picture of that. You'll be surprised how much "crap" will be sitting on top of foundation I.E. old mortar, sawdust, insulation and dirt. In these old houses half the time when you first uncover it it looks twice as bad as it actually is.
stab the existing wood with a good size screwdriver to find weakend and rotted areas. It may just be the ends or only certain joists.
Definitely no matter what always have to solve the problem first whether moisture or insects.
Ray it sounds like you're already thinking of getting a structural engineer out there. At least here, there aren't many that practice actively in residential work, but they do exist.
From that perspective, my comments can be just taken 'for what they're worth' or perhaps to give some perspective as you get an engineer. I do think this is a project that justifies an engineer.
As Ola touched on, or mentioned, you will want to determine if you have any settling. That could be a major driver for whether you'll need to do much / anything with the existing masonry wall. If it's settling, the common fix there is to shore up the footer system, but that entails quite a bit more work as compared to simply shoring up your joist system.
So for some background, this type of setup is how buildings 'used' to be built, in that back in the 1800s and early 1900s masonry walls (as in, structural walls) were the common way they were built when you saw masonry. It still on very rare occasions is done, and also on rare occasions for retrofit/modification work, you may still look for opportunities to support your structure/joist systems etc with the masonry - however sometime in the early 20th century pure masonry started going out of favor, for structures being built entirely with their wood/steel, and the masonry you saw was then basically an aesthetic detail that was 'tied' to the structure holding everything up. The mechanism to do that is referred to as a wall tie.
Our house was built in 1929 in Des Moines IA and had already transitioned to this setup. Luckily that was the case as we had a very significant structural (outward bowing) on the house's north side, due to water entrance in the cavity behind the bricks, causing the wall ties (which are metal) to rust out and fail. Had these bricks been structural in nature, like your situation, that bowing may have been a fatal flaw and caused us to have to knock the house down.
I think Parker has some good thoughts there; I'd like to see more pictures/details of his recommended approach. I suspect there may be a good design there but you may think about getting a hybrid design from some of the best ideas.
I think Jay mentioned something that may be your most economical solution given that you're going to be replacing some joists, anyways - in a nutshell, you'd be removing joists that are bad (potentially all) - cutting existing joists you're keeping out from the masonry wall (no longer touching), and building yourself a solid ledger type system that you can use hangers for your joists.
I don't know the geometry of the room, but if you can picture a square or rectangular shaped room, you could get by with 4 new footers. Digging those footers will be some work, for sure. Harder work if you're not removing joists, from an access perspective.
I also was not formally trained as a structural engineer, so my terminology may not 100% be 'on point' but if you can imagine a new 'ledger board' system that is supported by these 4 footers, and then using joist hangers to support the new joists, that hopefully gives you the visual.
I personally would not mess with supporting something running laterally underneath existing joists, given that you are replacing some joists.
Yeah this type of project kind of separates the real deal investors and contractors in my opinion from the folks who aren't going to get there. Thanks for posting and good luck with the project!
@Ray A Delfi - I know its raining heavy in Westchester county right now so Dutchess county is likely getting it too. Perfect time to see if you have water infiltration. I doubt that its an insurance claim but it won't hurt to get some advice on the cause of damage then give them a call..Is it possible that you can jack up the house and then proceed with structural support. Give the job to someone who knows what they are doing. Good Luck!
I hope you get things fixed! I had a similar situation, but my joist did not rot all the way through. There was still meat on the bone to sister up new joists.
Question for anyone here. What is the “code” for sistering up new floor joist if you are just supporting the above floor? The new sister would not be taking any of the load from the house. I’m asking this question because my
@Anthony Rosa thanks for thinking of during the rain! This is what I call a community, it was almost like you came knocking on my door to bring me a cup of sugar. I will definitely check it out in the morning I’m meeting a structural engineer tomorrow to see what we have going on and will definitely check out if there is any moister coming in. Thanks for the tip!
@Account Closed with my experience every county and city has their own set of rules, but in a general sense I’ll check with the structural engineer tomorrow and hopefully get you an answer to that. Thanks for checking in!
@Jim Goebel if I could give you two votes I would! Great advice and detail. And I will continue to follow up through this process. I should have a Structural Engineer in there tomorrow and I should have funding with in the next week to cover the cost and get this place rented with in the next month or so. Thank you again for your guidance to me and anyone else seeing this post down the line with the same issues.
@Ray A Delfi I would def get an engineer in there, but you could probably shore it up with some posts and jacks, then tear out that junk brick and have a brick layer put some new concrete block in. My guess is those brick have gotten wet, you can probably grind them up like powder. My dad and I just did a job like this a few weeks ago. Thanks your your time in the suck. I’ve been in Air Guard for 19. Good luck brother.
Hi Ray, to answer your question, as always, it depends. Firstly at the end of the day it's the AHJ's (inspectors) call - however from my experience they usually rely on what are referred to 'prescriptive' methods for design (ie: IRC, span tables for joist sizing, tables that dictate minimum design requirements, etc) and if those prescriptive requirements do not meet an application, that's when often they will either require an engineer, or give some direction if they are comfortable.
When using a sister to an existing framing member, the capacity of the new member should be evaluated but also how it is attached to the existing, as a shearing failure of the screws/lags can occur. Also, a pulling failure can happen if there's not good wood to attach to.
Update: We pulled out the joists and now there’s a huge hole in the kitchen bathroom area ready to build new decking, but my loan application was denied. So I’ll have to slowly crawl through the rebuild out of pocket until it’s done. I appreciate all the advice above!