Just walked away from my first deal...horrible inspection!

Just walked away from my first deal...horrible inspection!

Rental Property Investor · Hartford, CT · Member since 2017 · 168 posts · 163 votes

Just walked away from my first deal. I’ve been looking for several months for a two family, in a good area, with potential for value add through renovations. I found a single family with a detached cottage already rented out, in one of the best towns in this area, with motivated sellers as it is an estate sale. They took my initial low offer, but we just had the inspections, and I decided not just to walk but to RUN!

Problems included: septic tank leak, failed water flow test for the well, evidence of carpenter bee infestation in the house and termite infestation in the garage, leaking pipes, roof was bad and all the windows were bad. The detached house had mold in the crawl space and attic. There is asbestos insulation, and rotten sills on both the garage and the main house, and electrical problems (short in the bathroom, no grounds, and not enough AMPS for the house). The money for the inspection was literally the best money I ever spent. Saved me a huge headache and a lot of renovation costs that otherwise would have been unanticipated.

It does have me wondering, should I make a super low ball offer, like the land value only, and then just knock the house down and build a new one? Anyone else ever walk away from a (perceived) deal due to bad inspections or find yourself in a similar situation? What did you do?

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Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 439 posts · 578 votes
7y

@Heidi Kenefick

It’s a numbers game. Attach a cost to all repairs needed and run your numbers. If it works, it works. There may be headaches and what not along the way but break it down. You might be walking away from a good deal because you’re overwhelmed. Also, if the seller is motivated and it makes sense.... I wouldn’t hesitate to make a second offer that takes all necessary repairs into account.

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  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 439 posts · 578 votes
    7y

    @Heidi Kenefick

    It’s a numbers game. Attach a cost to all repairs needed and run your numbers. If it works, it works. There may be headaches and what not along the way but break it down. You might be walking away from a good deal because you’re overwhelmed. Also, if the seller is motivated and it makes sense.... I wouldn’t hesitate to make a second offer that takes all necessary repairs into account.

  • Rental Property Investor · Hartford, CT · Member since 2017 · 168 posts · 163 votes
    7y

    @Tanner Marsey

    Thanks. I think for me the issue is that so many of the repairs are very expensive but don’t add any value. New septic tank for example, was quoted at $6000, and that doesn’t really add any value. I’m not sure how much the asbestos removal is, the inspector said it can be in the “tens of thousands” and that a contractor wouldn’t do work without it properly being removed first. And the well will likely need to be fracked in order to increase the water in it, again, not sure of the price of that, but it doesn’t sound cheap and it doesn’t really add any value. We had planned to do a lot of the work ourselves, but learned we can’t take down a wall that really needs to come out to make the whole place feel bigger, because it is load bearing.

    It’s definitely disappointing, but for my first live in flip/house hack, I think it would be better to start with something that won’t leave me overwhelmed. Unfortunately for the sellers, they now have to disclose all this information to future buyers, whereas when I looked at it, nothing was disclosed because they didn’t know. It’s like they say on the podcasts... you don’t really learn until you start!

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 439 posts · 578 votes
    7y

    sounds like you made the right call in walking away! Good on you for not letting emotion and the excitement of getting a deal cloud your judgement. 

  • Rental Property Investor · NC · Member since 2018 · 776 posts · 776 votes
    7y

    @Heidi Kenefick don't blame you for running! Inspections are well worth the money when it saves you from a devastating loss like that. Probably not too late to submit that low ball offer. In my mind, its worth a try. Owner is probably overwhelmed with the inspection results. Asbestos isn't really that bad/hard to eliminate. But when you stack them all up those are some huge expenses.

  • Rental Property Investor · Hartford, CT · Member since 2017 · 168 posts · 163 votes
    7y

    @Frank Geiger

    Yea, there were also a lot of smaller things like the wood around every single window was completely rotten... and some stuff that is workable but a bit concerning like the main beam holding up half the house was built on two rocks just inches from the dirt in the crawl space... hasn’t been destroyed by termites yet, but looked like a set up for a disaster!

    I don’t know what the owners are thinking. But I am sure it is devastating for them as well. I’m sure someone will come in after me and pick it up for probably 100k+ below asking, and then just knock it down and build something fresh. But that’s not my strategy so it will be interesting to see what someone does with it.

  • WorldWide · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    looks like some of these problems were readily apparent (i.e, visible). how much were you planning your reno budget to be on this one?

  • Rental Property Investor · Erie, PA · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    7y

    These sound bad but it is still relative to the numbers . If the numbers work I would not be scared . You gave us no idea on the numbers so that is hard to say but often times (and I’m Learning this myself ) things that appear as scary deal breaking game changers aren’t as bad if you have competent help and the knowledge to fix them . Knowledge truly is like a wad of money in your back pocket when buying older distressed properties .

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Montgomery, NY · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    What town? Is there city water/sewer on the street you can tie into, or well/septic only? The $6000 quote, was that for a tank only, or tank plus the leaching fields? Seems high for just a tank, very low for a complete new septic (I paid $12,000 for a new 1000 gal tank and leaching fields in Middlefield CT a couple years ago).

    Rotted sills and termite damage could be minor, could be major. Removing a structural beam to open up a space is almost always an option, not sure who told you you can't (unless there are other reasons we don't know).

    The electrical work sounds typical of old houses, should be easy to get a budget for.

    Personally I wouldn't run. I would spend the time to gather rehab costs, and simply go back and make your offer. Just tell them this is business, this is your adjusted offer and leave it with them. 

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    7y

    Any property has value depending on the experience level of the buyer. A experienced flipper with a experienced well seasoned crew would know exactly whatthis property is worth in it's peresnt stae and it's ARV. A inexperienced investor has no business taking on a project of this level only because they have no idea about real numbers.

  • Rental Property Investor · Hartford, CT · Member since 2017 · 168 posts · 163 votes
    7y

    @Victor S.

    Yes you are correct, some things were obvious. But the septic, well, asbestos, and mold weren’t until the inspection. Being new to this, I was really naive and thought, ok, we can replace the windows, remodel the kitchen and bathroom, and resurface the hard wood floors. I have family that have done all those things before, so they were planning on helping. There was a lot I thought we could get done on a shorter timeline, but once I realized that there were bigger more pressing issues that needed to be addressed before we could fix the things I thought needed to be fixed, I realized that would eat up my budget, and kill my time line. I didn’t mention I’m also pregnant and due mid May, so was hoping to have a lot of stuff done by then.

  • Rental Property Investor · Hartford, CT · Member since 2017 · 168 posts · 163 votes
    7y

    @Dennis M.

    That’s very true. I didn’t get quotes for a lot of the things, because I opted to walk. So to be fair, I’m not sure how much some of it would cost. The inspector said he couldn’t even tell me because it was so many problems. He did mention I could get the vermiculite tested and if it doesn’t have asbestos then we could just “sweep it away.” My concern with that is, if I wanted to sell the property in about 3 years (which was my exit plan) and things like asbestos removal were not done properly, it could really come back to bite me.

    The septic guy said 5-6k for the new tank.

    I would have to pay a well expert to come figure out what is wrong with the well and give me an estimate before I knew how much fracking it could cost. And as for the vermiculite, the inspector just said it is upwards of tens of thousands of dollars to have it removed.

    The purchase price we agreed to was 180,000, which for the neighborhood is a good price for any house. Similarly sized houses that have been remodeled sold for about 280,000ish within the past year. My projected arv was 250-280,000. Everyone kept saying it is hard to comp bc of the second house on the property, but the town considers it single family since the cottage was built before multi family zoning laws were in effect.

  • Rental Property Investor · Hartford, CT · Member since 2017 · 168 posts · 163 votes
    7y

    @Thomas S.

    Yes!! That’s exactly how I feel!! Like, I’m way in over my head. When I thought it would mostly just be a cosmetic upgrade, I knew I could do it since my brother in law has done a lot of that type of work, and my boyfriend has experience as a roofer and in building foundations. But because I don’t have any real concept of exactly how much it will cost, I just know it is going to be a lot more than I thought at first, I didn’t feel comfortable finding myself in an expensive rehab that was miscalculated from the start. I did read J Scott’s book on rehab costs... but it just wasn’t enough to tell me what I needed.

  • Rental Property Investor · Hartford, CT · Member since 2017 · 168 posts · 163 votes
    7y

    @Brian Pulaski

    Yes I knew the electrical was like that, and wasn’t too concerned, I just knew it would have to be fixed at some point. The inspector said the wall could come down, but I would have to install a support beam, which means first getting rid of the vermiculite... everything is tied together.

    The septic quote was for the tank only. Sad part is, that tank was installed in 2011, so it was a big surprise that it is leaking. Leech field was fine. Apparently there is septic at the next house, so I asked the septic people to quote me on the cost of hooking up to that as an option. Unfortunately, that quote won’t be back until Monday, but he said he thought it would be closer to 9-10k depending on where it ends exactly.

    The house is in Glastonbury. Maybe it’s a better deal for you! :)

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego · Member since 2019 · 109 posts · 87 votes
    7y

    @Heidi Kenefick Although I’ve never walked away following a bad inspection I have used it as leverage to renegotiate a lower price. As others have said, take the amount of repairs needed and subtract from your initial offer.

    The sellers are already motivated and now that these issues have come up and they have been made aware of them, they’re required to disclose them to any future buyers. They are probably more likely to get the deal done with you than with a whole new set of buyers

    Kyle

  • Rental Property Investor · Hartford, CT · Member since 2017 · 168 posts · 163 votes
    7y

    @Kyle Smith

    We were considering that. And I realize I have serious leverage right now. It’s really hard to walk away knowing the position I’m in, but I also know I’m in over my head. Since this was going to be a live in flip, we were hoping to get most of the dust producing parts of the rehab done before moving in, which we planned on for June. We are having a baby, (and I’m a pediatrician) and know all to well, the dangers of exposing an infant to lead containing dust. The timeline would be pushed back due to the asbestos and so I’m not confident we can get it done.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Montgomery, NY · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Heidi Kenefick:

    @Brian Pulaski

    Yes I knew the electrical was like that, and wasn’t too concerned, I just knew it would have to be fixed at some point. The inspector said the wall could come down, but I would have to install a support beam, which means first getting rid of the vermiculite... everything is tied together.

    The septic quote was for the tank only. Sad part is, that tank was installed in 2011, so it was a big surprise that it is leaking. Leech field was fine. Apparently there is septic at the next house, so I asked the septic people to quote me on the cost of hooking up to that as an option. Unfortunately, that quote won’t be back until Monday, but he said he thought it would be closer to 9-10k depending on where it ends exactly.

    The house is in Glastonbury. Maybe it’s a better deal for you! :)

    For quotes better to be safe than sorry. Sad that a 2011 tank is leaking, I'm sure that is a massive surprise for the seller. My last septic inspection I had done the tank collapsed a few days after my inspection looked at it.

    This does sound like a big project especially for a novice. $180k buy on even a $280k ARV doesn't even sound like enough meat on it for the amount of work it needs, assuming it would need kitchen, baths and cosmetics on top of the bigger things.

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego · Member since 2019 · 109 posts · 87 votes
    7y

    @Heidi Kenefick

    Lots to consider and doing your due diligence is certainly important. It sounds like you’re in the driver’s seat though...

  • Rental Property Investor · Hartford, CT · Member since 2017 · 168 posts · 163 votes
    7y

    @Brian Pulaski

    I agree. It was attractive since it was already producing some income from the cottage, in a good area, and we thought we could do a live in flip and sell it after 3 years. Houses in glastonbury often rent for about 2k a month, so even keeping it as a rental was another option... but not after realizing what I did yesterday. At the end of the day, I thought, this would be better to knock it down and start from scratch. The mold in the cottage was really bad too, and I thought to myself, am I the type of person that would knowingly rent out a moldy house to someone? The answer is no, as a doctor, I just can’t stand the the thought of putting a person in harms way knowingly. And it wasn’t possible to actually clean it since most of it was inaccessible.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Montgomery, NY · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    Yeah, sounds like best to move on. A tear down and rebuild is difficult enough for a seasoned investor let alone someone new to it.

    My wife is in medical school so I can relate to the concerns. I got reprimanded an hour ago for leaving watermelon on the counter. She started to explain the process of how it could cause food poisoning, using her fancy medical jargon... haha!

  • Rental Property Investor · CA · Member since 2018 · 225 posts · 180 votes
    7y

    @Heidi Kenefick you only would have to remove the asbestos if you planned on doing work up in the area it is in. It is only harmful if made it is made friable.

  • Rental Property Investor · New Castle, DE · Member since 2016 · 376 posts · 158 votes
    7y

    @Heidi Kenefick ... I completely understand why you would walk away. This being your first deal it is an overwhelming thought of what else is beyond what was found during the inspection. Even if they accept another low ball offer from you, you still must contend with the other potential costly issues when they arise... and they WILL arise. They probably wont be value add items but required to get the house up to code. Even if the numbers work, the current tenant would be inconvenienced by the repairs and depending on your current living situation you couldn't move in until the reno is done... potential months down the line.

  • Member since 2018 · 7 posts · 5 votes
    7y

    I'm positive I would have walked away from this as well. I'm reading that lots of new investors throw caution to the wind and end up being committed to bad deals. There are probably seasoned investors who can figure out creative ways to make most any deal work but my feeling is that new investors should be more selective about the deals they choose to take on since they have less experience in mitigating risk and estimating costs beforehand.

    I'm actively looking for my first property and one of my criteria is that I will only buy a house that needs mainly cosmetic updates and even then within certain limits. One of my major remaining hurdles is that I don't yet have a good sense for the reasonable costs of many renovation projects and repairs. Guessing too low and receiving quotes 2x to 3x the market rate from unscrupulous contractors both seem like great ways to torpedo a deal. Luckily I'm gradually building a great network and have a few people who probably won't mind me running things by them. (And of course, there's always BP.)

    In The Millionaire Real Estate Investor, Gary Keller writes that it's far better to walk away from a good deal than to find yourself stuck with a bad one.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Dennis M.:

    These sound bad but it is still relative to the numbers . If the numbers work I would not be scared . You gave us no idea on the numbers so that is hard to say but often times (and I’m Learning this myself ) things that appear as scary deal breaking game changers aren’t as bad if you have competent help and the knowledge to fix them . Knowledge truly is like a wad of money in your back pocket when buying older distressed properties .

    this is the name of the game in Value add rehab..  now everything listed there is easy  MOLD Is a joke..  but the Asbestos that is real 

    I got fined 19k and spent another 20k just removing asbestos floor tiles.. I learned my lesson on that one.. you really need a deep dig into your asbestos rules.. nothing says you just don't leave it in place if you don't touch it.. its when you go to remove it thats an issue.

    but these are what your looking at with distressed assets and you just have to pay accordingly.. no old fixer is going to be just lip stick other wise it would not be value add..   I mean when we are done with our new construction homes the buyers always have a home inspector go through and there are always a few items.. that got missed .. you know cellulose in the crawl ( wood chips LOL).. reverse polarity.. chipped tile 

    our folks out are way will even do a sewer scope.. and a radon test.. even though we have to put in radon pipes by code..

  • Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2012 · 54 posts · 19 votes
    7y

    I think you should walk from the deal for sure. The reason is because this place is not what you were looking for and doesn't fit into your plan, even if you could get it for land value. You said you're looking for "a two family, in a good area, with potential for value add through renovations." I'm sure there's a good reason you decided on this. Stick to that decision.

  • Developer · NY/NJ/PA · Member since 2018 · 758 posts · 935 votes
    7y

    for your first flip, walk away. For seasoned guys, adjust your offer. More work = More Profit. Ive made the most on the properties that are an absolute POS.

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