Being invisible

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Being invisible

Chris Martin
Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes

From another BP post I saw this comment:

"No matter if you have your proprieties in a LLC, CORP it is not hard to find out who the owner of the LLC, CORP is. I am no expert but doing normal business hours it would only take me about 2 hours to know who the owner is. Your best bet is a good insurance policy."

I didn't want to further hijack the thread, hence this new topic.

In many cases, I think this statement is correct. But if someone did not want their ownership interest discovered, and went to 'reasonable' means to conceal that ownership interest, I think it is difficult to (using legal methods) find the owner.

Using conventional means, the secretary of state filings are the obvious first choice for where to find owners. LLCs are required to file Organizational documents and annual reports with the state. Some people file themselves. Some use a service. Incorp Services, Inc., acting as organizer and registered agent, has registered and maintains well over 1900 companies in NC. So as registered agents, these are Businesses that Incorp Services, Inc. represents.

In several dozen random views of filings for companies represented by Incorp, several "foreign" (meaning out of state) LLC formations do not list officers. And upon viewing many of the Principal Offices, there are a reasonable number that match UPS Store addresses or other addresses that don't uniquely identify an establishment. A Google search on some of these yielded more information and some led me to web sites where it appeared like I could find a phone contact or other "identification" as to who the owner might be. Others... not so much.

But the premise is 'in 2 hours can you find the owner?'

I'd say 'no' for someone hell-bent on being invisible.

Two parts to the question: 'Do you want to be known as owner of your company?' and 'Can you (without court order or someone using illegal methods) be invisible?'

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Will BarnardPro Member
Moderator
Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
12y

Being from CA and all our liberal laws, someone can be used for looking at you the wrong way. There comes a price with privacy and public exposure. I have taken the public exposure route and anyone can find me very easily. I use entities, operate in a responsible and legal manner, and carry insurance as protection. The downside of exposure is the opportunity it creates for people to sue regardless if it is frivolous or not. The upside is that it generates contacts, service providers, friends, partners, private money lenders, etc.

I will take the bad with the good in being public. As far as being a borrowe, my public figure and rep provides the lender will a more comfortable feeling I that I am fully and publicly transparent. Someone in another thread yesterday mentioned how building a good reputation takes years and can be destroyed in minutes by messing up, that is so very true.

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  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    Chris, a drop box won't do much if someone skilled in searches and pretexting wants to locate you.

    The best was is not to own it, but hold transfer documents and assignments in trust and manage it for compensation by agreement, if you're active, the taxes are the same. Your attorney can set that up if he's skilled in creative assignment arrangements. A true straw man set up. :)

    1Reply
  • Chanté Owens
    Insurance Agent · AZ · Member since 2013 · 306 posts · 161 votes
    12y

    @Chris Martin I've been thinking about this too; especially (in the distant future), I own commercial properties. I'd prefer not to necessarily be found so easily; however, I know that if someone wants to find out something they can...it just depends on how much time and $$$ they are willing to expend!

    0Reply
  • Jerry W.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    If you try really hard you can hide one or even all of the members of a corporation. I have done it. it is harder to do with LLCs. We were sued once in the corporate name, then they tried to get the names of all of the shareholders. We were able to resist it. If we had truly wanted to keep all of the corporate owners hidden we could have but it makes it more expensive and takes longer to do things.

    1Reply
  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    Yep, Jerry.

    Or, use a Corp and have the owner pass off the stock certificate, if he doesn't have it it's hard to prove who owns it. :)

    0Reply
  • Jerry W.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    I used to form a lot of corporations and LLCs for folks. If I form the Corp, and I am the registered agent, if they hire a manager to act as president, they cannot tell who the owner is unless they get the corporate book or tax returns. In my business though once the court says divulge the shareholders, you pretty much have to. it takes a lot for the court to do that.

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  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    Good lawyering Jerry.

    Case here, the judge said show the certificate, the registered agent/attorney/council said he didn't have it, the "manager" said he didn't have it. The taxes showed who had it at the last filing, but not to date. The judge was ticked off! Settlement was reached, they never did establish ownership. I heard it all from the "manager", who had a reputation for being sneaky along with his attorney. And as you said Jerry, all they had to do was wait to the next tax filing and that scheme would have blown up. Eventually it comes out. A great incentive to settle after pulling that, who's on first in court.

    I really never felt the need to hide out too much, I did LLCs listing myself as the RA on a few. Good management, insurance and proper business structure = a good night sleep.

    1Reply
  • Account Closed
    Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 744 votes
    12y
    Jerry,

    There are a dozen ways or more to find the owners, and if I told you, it would make the hair on your neck stand up... If someone sues you and goes to court there is a chance the judge will have the Corp to reveal the owners.


    Joe Gore

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  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by Joe Gore:

    There are a dozen ways or more to find the owners, and if I told you, it would make the hair on your neck stand up...

    Cool...can you share?

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  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by J Scott:
    Originally posted by Joe Gore:

    There are a dozen ways or more to find the owners, and if I told you, it would make the hair on your neck stand up...

    Cool...can you share?

    No, it's Top Secret, can't even discuss it but really, I think Joe likes us to think he just gets his spook buddy in the CIA to track them down.......LOL

    Usually any small operator is easy to nail down. Pretexting is used in investigations, simply walk in, be someone else, maybe make an offer to good to be true or that can't be turned down, just chat with them asking for the owner. Any unsuspecting owner will generally bite. Now, you have something signed off on as them being the owner. Not hard. :)

    0Reply
  • David T.
    Specialist · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2013 · 639 posts · 176 votes
    12y

    The toughest to trace are the offshore operations. Easy enough to set up and again, comes back to having a savvy lawyer work on it for you. Properly set up, even the spooks can't track these so easily.

    As long as you y'all don't upset Uncle Sam, you'll be fine with these shenanigans, lol. He got into the Swiss banking system! you will recall.

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 744 votes
    12y

    Bill,

    There you go again talking when you should be listening.

    Joe Gore

    0Reply
  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    12y

    Being from CA and all our liberal laws, someone can be used for looking at you the wrong way. There comes a price with privacy and public exposure. I have taken the public exposure route and anyone can find me very easily. I use entities, operate in a responsible and legal manner, and carry insurance as protection. The downside of exposure is the opportunity it creates for people to sue regardless if it is frivolous or not. The upside is that it generates contacts, service providers, friends, partners, private money lenders, etc.

    I will take the bad with the good in being public. As far as being a borrowe, my public figure and rep provides the lender will a more comfortable feeling I that I am fully and publicly transparent. Someone in another thread yesterday mentioned how building a good reputation takes years and can be destroyed in minutes by messing up, that is so very true.

    Podcast Guest on Show #130
    3Reply
  • Account Closed
    Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 744 votes
    12y

    Will,

    I agree with you. The best policy is have a good insurance and let the insurance company deal with it if you are sued.

    Joe Gore

    0Reply
  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by Joe Gore:
    Bill,

    There you go again talking when you should be listening.

    Joe Gore

    LOL, and there you go again, speaking without any meaningful contribution and only eluding to substance, pay no attention to that man behind the curtain... LOL

    Come on, list your favorite 4 out of 12 ways to uncover owners hiding out.

    1Reply
  • Account Closed
    Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 744 votes
    12y

    Bill,

    Why should I expose how it is done in open forum. Bill did you tell everyone how you did investigation work when you work at the FDIC.

    Joe Gore

    0Reply
  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    Actually, I just did above and yes, in some cases after the fact as they learned how they got caught messing up. But, then, Joe, that's not what you do, doing investigations, you joined here saying you invested in notes. Don't see how such a general disclosure is unique to your business. Or were you just BSing again?

    Any tricks of the craft? That's what this thread is about. :)

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 744 votes
    12y
    Bill,

    My business is notes only, but I have knowledge how to find or get what info I need and I think you had the same method when you were working with the FDIC. Bill I am BSing I learn from you and thanks for teaching me how to BS someone.


    Joe Gore
    0Reply
  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    12y

    Ok gentlemen, that is enough, it stops here. Let's stay on topic and refrain from the shots at each other please. Thank you.

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    1Reply
  • Chanté Owens
    Insurance Agent · AZ · Member since 2013 · 306 posts · 161 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by Will Barnard:
    I will take the bad with the good in being public. As far as being a borrowe, my public figure and rep provides the lender will a more comfortable feeling I that I am fully and publicly transparent. Someone in another thread yesterday mentioned how building a good reputation takes years and can be destroyed in minutes by messing up, that is so very true.

    @Will Barnard You make a valid point about "transparency" and I hadn't really thought about it from that perspective. Having been in the insurance industry for so long, you tend to want the "path of least visibility," because we all know people love to sue "deep pockets." I've even heard Mark Cuban say this on the Shark Tank (yes, I love that show), that there are some deals he won't do, because he has the deepest pockets and he will be the first named in the lawsuit.

    I decided a long time ago that if I worried about being sued I'd never be able to have any kind of business, so with that...get good insurance; be prudent, and go on about my business.

    1Reply
  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    12y

    I feel the same way @Chanté Owens

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    0Reply
  • David T.
    Specialist · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2013 · 639 posts · 176 votes
    12y

    Very well said, @Will Barnard!

    Why would anyone want to hide themselves in their business dealings unless there is wrongful intent?

    I really hate to spoil the fun for all you hide n seek fans, but if someone really wants to find you, they will and if you're "invisible", who can see you to protect you from what comes next?

    Be assured, a savvy business person simply will not engage with an "invisible" operator, especially in the mainstream and you'll end up doing business with people with nothing to lose. That's the real war zone!

    0Reply
  • Chris Martin
    OP
    Investor · Willow Spring, NC · Member since 2009 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by David T.:
    Very well said, @Will Barnard!

    Why would anyone want to hide themselves in their business dealings unless there is wrongful intent?

    I really hate to spoil the fun for all you hide n seek fans, but if someone really wants to find you, they will and if you're "invisible", who can see you to protect you from what comes next?

    Be assured, a savvy business person simply will not engage with an "invisible" operator, especially in the mainstream and you'll end up doing business with people with nothing to lose. That's the real war zone!

    I think you are missing my point. From my original post I said "...if someone did not want their ownership interest discovered, and went to 'reasonable' means to conceal that ownership interest...". It's not the operator that's invisible (or anonymous may be a better word) it's the owner. The "operator" and managers are very visible.

    Some people may want their ownership interest to remain out of public view. It has nothing to do with criminal or wrongful intent. If a person owns 15+ fast food franchise locations and 4 auto dealerships doing over $50M a month, is it that far fetched that this individual may not want to "advertise" his ownership interests to the general public? He's the owner, indirectly through companies he owns that manage and operate the franchises. They appear very well run and well managed. No illegal activities going on.

    I've heard over and over "... if someone really wants to find you, they will..." yet I don't see how someone will accomplish that using legal and legitimate means.

    Yet, somehow, from the claims I hear on this topic are that some people can easily get this information. If this is the case, then you can in 2 hours or less find out the person who "owns" property held by "Equity Trust Company FBO #121094"? Or the percentage ownership interest of all the managers (by name) in an LLC where a lawyer is the Registered Agent and the legal firm is the Registered Office?

    Do tell.

    0Reply
  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    Chris, sorry your question got smoked, there are many ways to ensure privacy for owners of larger operations that can not be pierced in two hours, even by the justice department or intelligence agencies or even the IRS as not all agreements, assignments or deeds must be filed, they can sit in a lock box. Deeds are effective when made, not when they are filed. Someone else can be shown as an owner of record and that person can have other agreements to convey that interest upon certain events or upon demand. You may not know who is pulling the strings in the backroom. Don't be so easily bluffed.

    Trying to hide in an LLC or small corporation isn't hard to pierce eventually, internal operating agreements can provide for others to pull stings and draw compensation. If you have adult children for example, they may be the owners, mom and dad can be in the backroom and if anything happens to the old folks, you have less issues as internal arrangements simply fade away. Nothing illegal about it.

    As to the hiding out, I never hide from the public in business conducted, you need to be out there and responsible but it's different as to assets, especially in family or estate affairs as it's no ones business. :)

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 744 votes
    12y
    Chris,

    You can believe all the smoke and mirrors if you like but if your LLC or CORP ever gets sued, they can find out who the owners are because they will be drawn out in the open. And yes you can put fake names like Al Bundy, Moe Howard in the LLC or CORP to hide your real ownership but when the truth comes out I would not want to be in your shoes don't take my word for it ask a good lawyer.


    Joe Gore
    1Reply
  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    I suggest no one thinks of using a fake name on any corporate organization documents as that is filing false documents and is illegal. Don't do that nor is it ever a good tactic. :)

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