I don't see the benefit of an LLC - if liability is the issue....

I don't see the benefit of an LLC - if liability is the issue....

Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2016 · 32 posts · 5 votes

I'm an owner of a 4-plex, I've had for 10 years now. It was a condo building, each unit having its own address and deed when we purchased. It's doing very well and one of the units is an Airbnb. My husband and I have just owned and managed the building for years now. However, we have heard dozens of times the advice that we should put the building into an LLC - with each unit in an LLC.

After researching..... I just cannot see the benefit of all these LLCs. If the issue is protecting our assets in case of a lawsuit, it seems like a good umbrella that covers our "net worth" will do the trick. I understand that if someone goes after us with a lawsuit, someone can get the equity of all the units if they win the lawsuit. With each unit in an LLC, supposedly it separates each entity and the person suing could only go after the equity of one condo. OK, I got that.

It has come to my understanding that if you don't account perfectly for expenses, a lawyer can argue that the LLC ultimately leads to me and my husband, and that our personal assets would get compromised anyway. Or, if I purchase another property under my own name and then transfer it to an LLC, the lines between personal finances and business finances wouldn't hold up in court anyway. It just seems that the LLC is a fragile line between personal and private monies, but that it can be easily argued against.

Overall, It seems like an LLC is fancier, more "clean" and official and separate. However, we would go from passive income as landlords to having to pay self-employment taxes, plus commercial insurance (which is double the cost), plus all of the costs of setting up these LLCs, plus added taxes, etc.

I manage the property and do basic repairs, but everything else is contracted.

So, for all you real estate gurus...

Can anyone explain why to do an LLC?

I am seriously leaning towards the insurance route.

Thanks!

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Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
9y

About 50% of investors in the US have real estate in a LLC of some sort. It is highly over sold as a be all end all solution. No one on BP will come forward with a first hand example of being protected by a LLC and you are right that they can be pierced and insurance is more than adequate protection. If on the other hand you have employees I understand a LLC does have a value.

I believe the entire LLC situation is highly over hyped and not necessary, it being more of a encumbrance than anything else. Supports of having a LLC will only argue there is a psychological security value to having one. No evidence to the contrary has in the past been presented to support the value of a LLC for small time real estate investors.

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  • Fairfield CT · Member since 2017 · 63 posts · 77 votes
    9y
    Hi! I am a CPA specializing in real estate investors. From a tax standpoint, putting rental properties in an LLC does not subject the net rental income to self employment tax. Good liability insurance on the property is a must. The horror stories of investors losing properties to plaintiffs in lawsuits are overstated. Does not mean it never happens but your property insurance should cover most claims. The issue becomes when something happens that is your fault and the insurance won't cover it. An example would be a slip and fall on a snow covered sidewalk that you should have shoveled. That is where you might have personal liability. So, an LLC is just another tool. Another speed bump that an attorney would have to overcome to get to your personal assets. The insurance on the property should not increase as a result. Also, depending on the law in Utah, it could provide you with some privacy as your name does not appear on the tax rolls via public records. Just some thoughts. Hope they were helpful. Have a nice night, Ted Lanzaro, CPA
  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y

    About 50% of investors in the US have real estate in a LLC of some sort. It is highly over sold as a be all end all solution. No one on BP will come forward with a first hand example of being protected by a LLC and you are right that they can be pierced and insurance is more than adequate protection. If on the other hand you have employees I understand a LLC does have a value.

    I believe the entire LLC situation is highly over hyped and not necessary, it being more of a encumbrance than anything else. Supports of having a LLC will only argue there is a psychological security value to having one. No evidence to the contrary has in the past been presented to support the value of a LLC for small time real estate investors.

  • Insurance Agent · Member since 2015 · 191 posts · 124 votes
    9y
    Rebecca Dittmer Greg S. Member managed LLCs do not protect member managers from personal liability and therefore do not offer much protection for that member manager. However, another person can enter the LLC as a passive investor whose only role is to provide capital. The operating agreement would state clearly that the investors only interest in the LLC is that he provided capital with the intention of profiting from the operations of the managing member. In this scenario the passive members interest in the LLC is considered a security and that members liability is limited to his investment in the LLC. This means he can not be sued personally. This structure protects the investor and encourages investment. An LLC protects you from personal liability If and only if your interest can be defined as a security.
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    @Account Closed  the reality though is does not matter. you will get sued personally.. so its best to have good insurance and hand it to them to defend.. Not saying they have a right to sue you maybe they don't but they WILL name you and you will have to defend and try to get yourself removed. and this will cost a ton in attorney fees.. so best to always have good insurance.. there Is some risk in real estate.. You simply cannot avoid it all...

    However I know for me I have never been sued by a tenant.. in all these years.. squabbles over deposits but never sued. 

  • Fairfield CT · Member since 2017 · 63 posts · 77 votes
    9y

    One thing I forgot to mention in my reply last night. I do like to use LLC's to separate properties from the liability of other properties. With that being said, that is based on how much equity you have in the properties and your risk tolerance.

    I also agree with the other posts that suggest using them when you have passive investors in the property assuming the operating agreements are done properly.

    Hope that helps,

    Ted

  • Investor · Winter Garden , FL · Member since 2014 · 72 posts · 27 votes
    9y
    The other benefit of an umbrella policy is that the policy will cover most if not all legal fees associated with a lawsuit. Generally and insurance policy will cover a very wide range of liability, where your main exposure is negligence I.e. deferred maintenance. For anyone with liens on your property, banks generally have a "due on sale" clause which make it difficult (not impossible) to close or transfer title into an LLC. Never had any issues so far thankfully. It seems like for a lot of people I've talked to about liability protection is that an LLC is a "sexy" way to validate the fact that you invest in real estate.
  • Insurance Agent · Member since 2015 · 191 posts · 124 votes
    9y
    Jay Hinrichs LLCs and insurance are not mutually exclusive choices. I agree you should have an insurance policy regardless of how the property is owned. Insurance on an LLC provides coverage for the LLC and its members so the legal costs would be covered. In reality there is a very definite precedent establishing that the owner of a security is only liable for the amount of his investment. For someone worth 10s of millions of dollars this is a very significant consideration. Again, the reality is LLCs don't make sense for most small sfh investors who manage the operations of the business.
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    @Account Closed  especially single member.. that's just an alter ego

  • Specialist · Victor, NY · Member since 2013 · 823 posts · 844 votes
    9y

    What about when an individual owns multiple properties, 10 or 50 or 100? Wouldnt having five properties in each of any number of LLC's offer favorable protection. The cost is minimal and as long as you run each LLC as separate from the rest and don't co mingle funds, you are protecting your 95 other properties from an accident that happened in one of the properties in the first LLC. For $1000 to set it up and $9 every other year, that seems like good protection to me especially if there is sizable equity in the properties. Debt is another form of insurance so if every property in the portfolio is leveraged to the hilt, the value of the LLC decreases.

  • Specialist · Bozeman, MT · Member since 2016 · 237 posts · 153 votes
    9y

    Also be aware that your liability insurance almost definitely does not cover your STR. In fact, your mortgage company could conceivably call your loan since most policies on LTR property specifically state you cannot use them as a vacation rental. Check your mortgage for the verbage.

  • Investor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2015 · 273 posts · 217 votes
    9y

    @Cameron K.I think there is a lot of information about LLCs floating around that is inaccurate. Benefits vary based on your situation and your state, it can be a very useful tool for some people and for others it may not be worth it, no one person here will be able to tell you without seeing the whole picture. I would look into having a sit down with a good lawyer instead of getting advice from friends or even people here. 

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