Help, I think I made a big mistake with tax sale properties

Help, I think I made a big mistake with tax sale properties

Member since 2021 · 13 posts · 4 votes

I am hoping someone can help. I am new to tax sale investing. I am afraid I made a great mistake. I recently bought 2 properties. One is a house, the other is a piece of land that has a condemned trailer on it. (I bought it for the land with intentions of removing the trailer and building tiny homes on it to air bnb) I understood that I was responsible for any back bills or liens associated with the properties, I was ok with that. Mainly because I "assumed" how long could utilities such as water ,trash and electric really get backed up without getting shut off. The house has a water bill for $1,300 which I am ok with. The property with the trailer has a water bill of about $1,200. again understood. However it has a trash bill due from 2006 to current that is $4,700 ...mind you , this property has been sitting vacant for many years not receiving any trash services but getting charged for a lot of empty land. I was told by the city it doesn't matter it still has to have a trash bill vacant or not. I actually wish this was the worst of the problems, it is only the tip of the ice burg!

The house has 4...yes 4! mortgages on it, which I don't understand how this house was not foreclosed on long ago. The other property that has 2 mortgages on it. Both properties have mortgages more than doubling the value of the property. When I did my research on the owners names , I saw there was mortgages in their names but assumed since they were so old they were paid off. Also from researching I was told if there are mortgages on a property at a tax sale the bank would step in to protect their investment and pay the taxes to get the property. I bought both of them cash money and should be receiving the deed in February because it takes a while to process. 

My concern is can they foreclose on these properties now that I own them even though the mortgage contract was in the old owners name?

Am I going to have to take over the Mortgage payments?

Or will I get the deed but just not be able to resell due the them having an interest in the deed as well?

I have googled so much and I am getting mixed answers on everything. Some says I am 100% responsible for everything, others say I wont owe the mortgages. I will just not have a clear title to resell, also read there is a 4 year statute of limitations on utility bills so they cant make me pay dates back to 2006. 

If there is ANYONE familiar with something like this , I would be very grateful to get some insight because I am panicking.

I literally saved money for so many years for this and I hope I didn't just lose it all.

I don't know if it matters but this happened in Lancaster Pa, and they were purchased in a business name not my personal name. Thank you in advance for any information anyone gives!

Bridget Grant

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Pomona, NY · Member since 2016 · 375 posts · 217 votes
4y

@Bridget Grant for one, your biggest and absolute mistake was not having a title company run title on it. Never assume nothing in life let alone real estate. A may be wrong but I don't see how you can get a clear title on either of the properties with mortgages attached. Do you know have a real estate attorney ? These are questions you should be asking your attorney asap

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  • Pomona, NY · Member since 2016 · 375 posts · 217 votes
    4y

    @Bridget Grant for one, your biggest and absolute mistake was not having a title company run title on it. Never assume nothing in life let alone real estate. A may be wrong but I don't see how you can get a clear title on either of the properties with mortgages attached. Do you know have a real estate attorney ? These are questions you should be asking your attorney asap

  • Member since 2021 · 13 posts · 4 votes
    4y

    I have contacted an attorney and said he needs about 10 business days to look into things. I am waiting for a reply from him on what route, if any I can take. I have read so many contradictory things about this scenario. 

  • Investor · Hunker, PA · Member since 2015 · 40 posts · 17 votes
    4y

    Sounds like a real mess Bridget.  As Michael Gessner mentioned you need to have a title search done on these tax sale properties before you buy them.  You can get some great deals but get burned also.  Yea sometimes you have to pay for the search and don't end up buying it.  However its a cost of doing business when you are buying tax sale properties.  

    You need to consult an attorney in your area who is very familiar with tax sales in Pennsylvania.  Ask a local real estate investing facebook group for attorney recommendations.  Good luck to ya

  • Member since 2021 · 13 posts · 4 votes
    4y

    Thank you so much. I actually just emailed someone about title insurance and waiting to hear back if they can help. I'm hoping it works out.

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    4y

    @Bridget Grant You say you looked up the properties and found mortgages.  If you didn’t also find releases or cancelation of the mortgages in the same place you found the mtgs….then they are still in effect. 

  • Specialist · Winter Springs, FL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 747 votes
    4y

    I believe in general, liens which are subordinate to real property taxes, which includes mortgages, are extinguished by a tax deed sale as long as they were provided proper notice of the sale.  Reviewing the tax sale file show show if the lenders were served.  However, the possibility the former owner or one of the lenders will claim service was improper is one of the reasons title insurers are reluctant to allow a policy to be issued w/o a quit title action being completed first.

    It's a good idea to ask the title agent for a commitment that will show the requirements for the issuance of a policy w/o exception for other interests.

  • Member since 2021 · 13 posts · 4 votes
    4y

    Thank you Peter, I was under the impression from everything I read prior that if the mortgage company's had and interest in the property the would have come forward prior to the tax sale. That is why I didn't think other wise. Because of the holiday I am waiting to hear back from an attorney as well as a title insurance company.  So in the meantime I am stressing.  Just hoping it will all work out.

  • Specialist · Winter Springs, FL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 747 votes
    4y

    I know it will be difficult but try not to stress and have a happy Thanksgiving.  Be sure the attorney you're talking with is experienced in real estate and particularly tax sales and tax deeds.  It's a specialized area of the law and I'd hate for you to pay for him/her to educate themselves.

  • Member since 2021 · 13 posts · 4 votes
    4y

    Thank you Peter, you have been very helpful. Have a great Thanksgiving!

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    4y

    @Bridget Grant In many areas, as @Peter Walther mentioned, mtgs get extinguished in a tax deed sale….they do here in FL.  In other areas, they do not. Tax lien/deed laws are different in every state, and sometimes each county. 

    Your post led me to think you believe that mtgs are Not extinguished where you are….do you know if this is true? 

    In order to help:

    1) where are these properties? Someone here with local knowledge of the tax sale laws can chime in. 

    2) were these “tax lien” sales or “tax deed” sales?  Some places have one or the other, or both. 

  • Member since 2021 · 13 posts · 4 votes
    4y

    Thank you Wayne, it was in Lancaster Pennsylvania.  Both properties and they were tax deed auctions. I keep getting mixed answers. Originally my research lead me to believe prior to purchasing that I was responsible for past utilities and any liens on the property, but not the mortgage.  Now I am being told I am wrong. I don't know what to believe, and because of the holiday I  ant seem to get a response back from an attorney.  They told me I should hear back in 10 business days. In the mean time I'm freaking out.

  • Specialist · Winter Springs, FL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 747 votes
    4y
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Peter Walther:

    I believe in general, liens which are subordinate to real property taxes, which includes mortgages, are extinguished by a tax deed sale as long as they were provided proper notice of the sale.  Reviewing the tax sale file show show if the lenders were served.  However, the possibility the former owner or one of the lenders will claim service was improper is one of the reasons title insurers are reluctant to allow a policy to be issued w/o a quit title action being completed first.

    It's a good idea to ask the title agent for a commitment that will show the requirements for the issuance of a policy w/o exception for other interests.

    I think almost 100% the mortgages are gone with a properly notice tax sale.. and in most states I work so are the utls. they try to force you to pay them but if you push back and or know they cant try to collect you just need to push the point..

    while banks will normally pay tax to protect their interest sometimes they dont  like in this case..  I suspect your going to be fine at the end of the day.. 

  • Member since 2021 · 13 posts · 4 votes
    4y

    Thank you Wayne, it was in Lancaster Pennsylvania.  Both properties and they were tax deed auctions. I keep getting mixed answers. Originally my research lead me to believe prior to purchasing that I was responsible for past utilities and any liens on the property, but not the mortgage.  Now I am being told I am wrong. I don't know what to believe, and because of the holiday I  ant seem to get a response back from an attorney.  They told me I should hear back in 10 business days. In the mean time I'm freaking out.

  • Member since 2021 · 13 posts · 4 votes
    4y

    Jay hinrichs, thank you so much for your response.  I really hope what you said is true. What you said is what I thought prior to buying . However other people are telling me different.  I really hope you are right. So you have any advice on how to "push back" in order to illuminate the mortgages and maybe even the utility bills. I would be grateful to know if you have any specific strategies. 

  • Developer · Decatur, GA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    @Bridget Grant. Yep, tax deeds are superior to most other liens except IRS liens. You need an experienced attorney who deals with tax deeds to get you title insurance and a marketable deed.  Not all attorneys can do it.

    Additionally, as @Jay Hinrichs mentioned, you tell the utilities you're not going to pay their bills. They'll negotiate the bills.  Again, if you find local investors who buy tax deeds, they can give you best advice.  In GA, you have to show the water company the code that new owners aren't responsible for past owners' bills before they drop it.  It's a fight until that point.

    A good way to find a good attorney is to go the next tax sale.  Ask the bidders who they recommend.  There's probably only 1 -3 in area including Philly. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Bridget Grant:

    Jay hinrichs, thank you so much for your response.  I really hope what you said is true. What you said is what I thought prior to buying . However other people are telling me different.  I really hope you are right. So you have any advice on how to "push back" in order to illuminate the mortgages and maybe even the utility bills. I would be grateful to know if you have any specific strategies. 

     @Mark Gallagher  Mark is the expert in that area..  PA has some pretty funky laws rules that may not apply to what the other 45 states do.. 

  • Member since 2021 · 13 posts · 4 votes
    4y

    Thank you guys for all the helpful responses.  I have been trying to find lawyers in Google in my area who specialize in tax sale law and it seems to be something close to impossible.  I am going to continue to search. At this point I feel like it is the only thing that can help me.

  • Member since 2021 · 13 posts · 4 votes
    4y

    Also @Jayhinrichs the tax sales here are done online now. There is no one to speak to. All done through govdeals.com 

  • Pomona, NY · Member since 2016 · 375 posts · 217 votes
    4y

    @Bridget Grant just to add going foward, in your search for a lawyer who specializes in these types, look hard for a very good real estate attorney who will work going forward with you on any transactions you make in the future. Never assume anything, I run things by my attorney all the time even if I think I know the answers. Theirs 2 people in life you need in business who you can trust and are excellent in theyre line of work, your attorney and your accountant. Best of luck I hope things work out

  • Member since 2021 · 13 posts · 4 votes
    4y

    Also @Jayhinrichs the tax sales here are done online now. There is no one to speak to. All done through govdeals.com 

  • Member since 2021 · 13 posts · 4 votes
    4y

    Thank you so much, i definitely plan to moving forward. This has taught me a scary lesson and hopefully not a hard lesson. I appreciate everyone so far for their help. It makes me feel like there may be some hope.

  • Real Estate Agent · Princeton, NJ · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    @Bridget Grant - in terms of your plans going forward, I recommend doing a risk adjusted minimum investment to get up and cash flowing while you get things sorted out with your lawyer. One of the benefits to possession is you can rent it out.

    With the vacant land, I would try to get my paperwork in place to bring on tiny homes that could be removable if something happened and you didn’t keep the land for some reason. Marketable title will take a while such that it will be hard to sell, so plan for rental income while it gets sorted out.

    I would also negotiate down your bills by talking to someone in the government on the phone and/or in person especially about the trash service. In our area there are business administrator (assistants to the mayor) who have more decision making power than others, but the head of the water/sewer or public works department may be able to help you too. Especially if you're nice. Good luck and let us know how it goes. Document your experience so you can share a case study here or at your local REIA

  • Member since 2021 · 13 posts · 4 votes
    4y

    Thank you Natalie, it is actually crazy. Everything you suggested was the original game plan the house will be a rental or air bnb and the land was bought with the intentions of having tiny hones put on it. I plan on up dating everyone as things progress.  I can't wait for the holiday and weekend to be over so I can get moving.

  • Rental Property Investor · Champaign, IL · Member since 2021 · 14 posts · 25 votes
    4y

    @Bridget Grant

    The mortgages should be cancelled out depending on your county rules. I know here in Illinois the taxes trump Mortgages. So our mortgages get cancelled out here if the property makes it to a tax sale. Consult with an attorney at all times. I wish you best and keep us posted about your progress!!!

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