The Cash Flow Trap

The Cash Flow Trap

Matthew Irish-JonesBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes

If you are just starting out I suggest you don't fall into the cash flow trap. 

What is the cash flow trap?  It starts with a picture of a guy with abs on a beach sipping a light beer next to a beautiful woman.  Then a caption about how he is living off of "cash flow."  It ends with you borrowing money from your parents. 

How does this happen? You get sucked into a dream that you can take $100,000 and keep rolling it over until you have $200,000 of passive income per year and you are on the beach.  

How to avoid all of this? 

1. Remove the dream of retiring on cash flow from your mind -   Real Estate investing takes lots of hard work, if you don't do the work, you are paying contractors, property managers and handymen do do the work, and they are taking a piece of your cash flow for their time.  Its a long term wealth building strategy, not a short term job replacement strategy. 


2. Value Real Estate in the following order.  a) Location b) Asset Condition c) Returns.  Most new investors disregard the most important aspect of Real Estate... location and start walking through places that look like S*it, smell like SH*t, and will most likely have returns like Sh*t, but their spreadsheet says otherwise.   If the location is crap, and the asset condition is crap, your bill is coming due eventually.  When it does, you can burn your spreadsheet. 

3. Chase consistent and reliable returns, not HIGH returns.  High returns = high risk. Life is short and your life will be shorter chasing sky high returns.  They exist, but not for brand new investors.   You are going to start at the bottom.  When you start at the bottom a 6% return for a nice double with a new roof, and updated mechanics is a win.  As rents go up your nice, conservative double is going to be a 7,8,9 and eventually some day a 10% return.   

4. Seriously consider the risk  -  Risk can be geographic.  Risk can be based on the asset itself.  Does it have lead paint on the windows, asbestos wrapped radiator?  These things increase risk, and if you don't know how to quantify that, you will take on too much risk for too little of a reward.  There is also a lot of risk in rehabs, especially if it is your first one.  Do you understand permits, asbestos tests, lead tests, building inspections, sub contractor insurance, GC insurance, hold harmless agreements, and the rest?  If not, you are once again not properly accounting for the risk involved.  

If I could do it all over again, I would have bought much better properties in much better condition, in much better areas from the start.   

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Investor · Lancaster, PA · Member since 2016 · 94 posts · 356 votes
3y

OMG!!Finally some truth!! I am so over people telling me I'm doing it all wrong because I still work so hard on my rentals after 15 years. 

We purchased 200 year old value add 4-11 unit properties. ( Our more recent stuff is much larger) Not that that was our niche , but it was all we could afford. I refused to bring in partners or borrow from friends and family to buy nicer newer properties. That was the biggest blessing of all!! We accidentally stumbled into the BRRRR method because of all the sweat equity we did for pennies on the dollar.

Years 1-5 were very slow. Just purchased a few properties and invested ALL of the money back into the properties. My wifey and I did all the work. By all I mean every turn over, mowed every lawn, managed every property.  This stage was easy. 

Years 6-10 were a lot more difficult as the unit count increased. Our commitment to sweat equity caused us to  miss out on most weekends and even a few holidays. We still did not spend ANY of the profits. It was all about re-investing. 

Years 11-15 ( current). I quit my 6 figure w-2, my wifey will be done with hers by the end of this month. We live off of the rental income. ( NOTICE I DID NOT SAY PASSIVE) We finally pay someone to mow, we do hire help with renovations and we are training a girl to help manage as well. After 14 years of grinding and sacrifice, Our life finally  looks a lot like the picture you painted. Except my abs aren't as pronounced as "that guy", I don't drink light beers, we are at the bay not the beach,  and there is NOTHING passive about it. How ever, Life is amazing and I would do it all over again! It is so rewarding to to see what my wife and I have accomplished by simply living below our means, a **** ton of hard work and tenacity. 

Years 16-20 should be as passive as we want it to be. I plan on taking a few month long vacations a year but grinding on our portfolio otherwise. What can I say, I love hard work, and It's hard to turn your back on what got us here in the first place. 

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  • Randall AlanPro Member
    Investor · Lakeland, FL · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y

    I don't disagree with most of what the original post says... but I will throw out a little counterpoint to the group:

    I am here to tell you that you can certainly make real estate work just fine with C class properties in average areas where you are aiming for cash flow.  In 5 years (starting at age 47) we have purchased 45 units.  About 6 of those were flips or eventually sold to take advantage of acquired equity.  One was definitely a D class property, and it was definitely a bad experience in retrospect... lots of turn over, difficult tenants, furthest away from us, etc.  But in the end we sold it for more than double what we paid for it 3 years later (so not a total loss).  But definitely agree with avoiding D class!

    I think one point that is missed is the fact that we were able to leverage our available funds WAY better with C class properties.  In our area at the time (5 years ago), a B class property was selling in the mid $200,000's.  We were buying $75 - $100,000 C class properties.  I am a huge numbers guy... and quite literally, both B and C class properties were netting the same amount of money in rent after all expenses... which was really surprising to me.  Put another way, the increased cost of holding the nicer properties offset the extra rental income they brought in to where there was no financial advantage to the more expensive properties.  In our area, the rent curve sloped down the higher you went.  So while you could get $1.25/sf for a 1000sf C class property, you couldn't get $1.25/sf for a 2,500sf B class property. 

     Once you adopt the premise that there is no rent advantage to a nicer / bigger B class property... the most lucrative place to put your money is where you will spend the least amount for the property, down to the point that the other negative "D class factors" override that formula (dangerous neighborhoods, drugs, and the other "looks like / smells like crap" comments the original poster mentioned.  I translate that to be "I was looking for NICER C class properties"... maybe call it C+.

    So maybe I am the one-off guy here that retired on C class properties ... but both my wife and I worked full time 6 figure corporate jobs before getting into real estate... and 2 years in - buying hard and fast -  we were able to both quit our jobs at the point we got to 20 units.  We are now at 37 units across about 25 properties and netting well above what we were with our corporate jobs.  In that time we have invested just over $1 million  of our own funds in our properties, and probably cash-out refied / sold another $500,000 in properties  we have put back into buying additional properties and paying down our properties.  From an appreciation perspective, we did not see our C class properties do any worse than any other class properties in our area- including our own personal house.  They have all at least doubled, and some of our best buys actually quadrupled in value over what we paid for them.  Our current real estate portfolio value is over $6 million and only 7 of our properties remain financed.  

    Had we use the same amount of money to buy B and higher class properties, we could have only bought about 20 properties, versus 40.   While our portfolio might have been a similar value today in that scenario, our cash flow definitely would have been lower, and we would not have been able to maneuver as well as we have.  One of the coolest things we achieved before rates started going up was to be able to sell off a property, and use the increased equity to not only pay off the sold property, but also pay off another financed property as well - all the while not losing any cash flow.  We eliminated the management and maintenance expense of the sold property and were cash flow neutral.  We did this several times, paying off properties that had the highest interest rate in our portfolio.  C class real estate has been very good to us!  Lots of ways you can make the game work!

    All the best!

    Randy

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Matthew Irish-Jones:

    To truly sit on a beach with abs ........

    Yes, but in another 20 years, you will be sitting anywhere you want, my friend.

    And when you mention the abs and the beach, I assume you're talking about me....? 😂

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Randall Alan:

    I don't disagree with most of what the original post says... but I will throw out a little counterpoint to the group:

     So maye I'm the one-off guy here that retired on C class properties ... paid off properties that had the highest interest rate in our portfolio.  C class real estate has been very good to us!  Lots of ways you can make the game work!

    I also played in the C class sandbox most of my career, but it was rural older C vs shady C. 

    I had a few singles in shady C.  Just can't fix that.  Even after retailed up, vacant and staged for sale, the cats moved in. The birds moved in.  The dogs moved in. Even the animals knew it was a bad area. 

    But my staples were low B multis.  These did well during the GRC.  In more expensive markets, usually have to get to multis for cf. 

    I see a lot of new investors wanting to buy a certain # at regular intervals, like each month/qtr/ year to reach a certain cf per month like $10k. 

    RE isnt a mutual fund.   It comes in droughts and waves.  Stick to your criteria, spend time observing your prospective purchase at night, don't force any purchase, but if the sun is shining make that hay.

    I've gone 3 years buying none, but some years bought 19.  Be patient but ready and don't be afraid to sell a headache.

  • Realtor · Dallas - Fort Worth Metroplex, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 925 votes
    3y

    @Matthew Irish-Jones so well said !

  • Matthew Irish-JonesBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Randall Alan:

    I don't disagree with most of what the original post says... but I will throw out a little counterpoint to the group:

    I am here to tell you that you can certainly make real estate work just fine with C class properties in average areas where you are aiming for cash flow.  In 5 years (starting at age 47) we have purchased 45 units.  About 6 of those were flips or eventually sold to take advantage of acquired equity.  One was definitely a D class property, and it was definitely a bad experience in retrospect... lots of turn over, difficult tenants, furthest away from us, etc.  But in the end we sold it for more than double what we paid for it 3 years later (so not a total loss).  But definitely agree with avoiding D class!

    I think one point that is missed is the fact that we were able to leverage our available funds WAY better with C class properties.  In our area at the time (5 years ago), a B class property was selling in the mid $200,000's.  We were buying $75 - $100,000 C class properties.  I am a huge numbers guy... and quite literally, both B and C class properties were netting the same amount of money in rent after all expenses... which was really surprising to me.  Put another way, the increased cost of holding the nicer properties offset the extra rental income they brought in to where there was no financial advantage to the more expensive properties.  In our area, the rent curve sloped down the higher you went.  So while you could get $1.25/sf for a 1000sf C class property, you couldn't get $1.25/sf for a 2,500sf B class property. 

     Once you adopt the premise that there is no rent advantage to a nicer / bigger B class property... the most lucrative place to put your money is where you will spend the least amount for the property, down to the point that the other negative "D class factors" override that formula (dangerous neighborhoods, drugs, and the other "looks like / smells like crap" comments the original poster mentioned.  I translate that to be "I was looking for NICER C class properties"... maybe call it C+.

    So maybe I am the one-off guy here that retired on C class properties ... but both my wife and I worked full time 6 figure corporate jobs before getting into real estate... and 2 years in - buying hard and fast -  we were able to both quit our jobs at the point we got to 20 units.  We are now at 37 units across about 25 properties and netting well above what we were with our corporate jobs.  In that time we have invested just over $1 million  of our own funds in our properties, and probably cash-out refied / sold another $500,000 in properties  we have put back into buying additional properties and paying down our properties.  From an appreciation perspective, we did not see our C class properties do any worse than any other class properties in our area- including our own personal house.  They have all at least doubled, and some of our best buys actually quadrupled in value over what we paid for them.  Our current real estate portfolio value is over $6 million and only 7 of our properties remain financed.  

    Had we use the same amount of money to buy B and higher class properties, we could have only bought about 20 properties, versus 40.   While our portfolio might have been a similar value today in that scenario, our cash flow definitely would have been lower, and we would not have been able to maneuver as well as we have.  One of the coolest things we achieved before rates started going up was to be able to sell off a property, and use the increased equity to not only pay off the sold property, but also pay off another financed property as well - all the while not losing any cash flow.  We eliminated the management and maintenance expense of the sold property and were cash flow neutral.  We did this several times, paying off properties that had the highest interest rate in our portfolio.  C class real estate has been very good to us!  Lots of ways you can make the game work!

    All the best!

    Randy


     Thanks for the response.  There is no one size fits all strategy and every market has some say in what strategy will work.

    The question I have is why were your variable costs now lower on your B class properties? Turnover, delinquency, maintenance, CapEx as a % of rent are always lower on higher end properties.

    For example a roof costs $25,000 in Buffalo NY.  If you have a C class property worth 100K with $1600 in rent vs a B class worth 200K with $2800 in rent that roof as a % of rent just blew up your budget.  

    The economies of scale always seem to favor higher end, higher rent properties, because labor and material costs do not change. 

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  • Matthew Irish-JonesBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
    Quote from @Matthew Irish-Jones:

    To truly sit on a beach with abs ........

    Yes, but in another 20 years, you will be sitting anywhere you want, my friend.

    And when you mention the abs and the beach, I assume you're talking about me....? 😂


     Well I know who I am NOT talking about... me!

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  • Investor · Marin County California · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y

    The strategy that worked best for us can be summed up pretty simply: buy the best value add opportunities in the very best locations you can afford.  

  • Matthew Irish-JonesBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Steve Vaughan:
    Quote from @Randall Alan:

    I don't disagree with most of what the original post says... but I will throw out a little counterpoint to the group:

     So maye I'm the one-off guy here that retired on C class properties ... paid off properties that had the highest interest rate in our portfolio.  C class real estate has been very good to us!  Lots of ways you can make the game work!

    I also played in the C class sandbox most of my career, but it was rural older C vs shady C. 

    I had a few singles in shady C.  Just can't fix that.  Even after retailed up, vacant and staged for sale, the cats moved in. The birds moved in.  The dogs moved in. Even the animals knew it was a bad area. 

    But my staples were low B multis.  These did well during the GRC.  In more expensive markets, usually have to get to multis for cf. 

    I see a lot of new investors wanting to buy a certain # at regular intervals, like each month/qtr/ year to reach a certain cf per month like $10k. 

    RE isnt a mutual fund.   It comes in droughts and waves.  Stick to your criteria, spend time observing your prospective purchase at night, don't force any purchase, but if the sun is shining make that hay.

    I've gone 3 years buying none, but some years bought 19.  Be patient but ready and don't be afraid to sell a headache.


     That is a very interesting point on the rural rentals.  We have a small portfolio of rural rentals that I would consider C class and they have performed very well.  The classification gets tougher out in the rural areas because an A class home can be a mile from a C class with no homes in between, so who knows what to classify the area, but my overall experience has been similar.  The C class assets outside the city seem to have less problems. 

    It has somewhat impacted my current investing strategy.  I now look for 5+ unit B class and above rentals as well as unique rural opportunities.  Plus I love a nice long drive in the country so heading out that way never feels like a waste of time.  

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  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
    Quote from @Matthew Irish-Jones:

    To truly sit on a beach with abs ........

    Yes, but in another 20 years, you will be sitting anywhere you want, my friend.

    And when you mention the abs and the beach, I assume you're talking about me....? 😂


     Now that's some sexy 6-pack ab's ya got there, lol. 

  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y

    Looks like you're taking notes from my book. With that said, to the one's that counter this argument that's fine and all just take note. Is it because you primarily or started REI in 08-22? If so, I'd define that more as an outlier, and if I'm wrong--good just means these investments will get even more intrinsic.

  • Randall AlanPro Member
    Investor · Lakeland, FL · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Matthew Irish-Jones:
    Quote from @Randall Alan:

    I don't disagree with most of what the original post says... but I will throw out a little counterpoint to the group:

    I am here to tell you that you can certainly make real estate work just fine with C class properties in average areas where you are aiming for cash flow.  In 5 years (starting at age 47) we have purchased 45 units.  About 6 of those were flips or eventually sold to take advantage of acquired equity.  One was definitely a D class property, and it was definitely a bad experience in retrospect... lots of turn over, difficult tenants, furthest away from us, etc.  But in the end we sold it for more than double what we paid for it 3 years later (so not a total loss).  But definitely agree with avoiding D class!

    I think one point that is missed is the fact that we were able to leverage our available funds WAY better with C class properties.  In our area at the time (5 years ago), a B class property was selling in the mid $200,000's.  We were buying $75 - $100,000 C class properties.  I am a huge numbers guy... and quite literally, both B and C class properties were netting the same amount of money in rent after all expenses... which was really surprising to me.  Put another way, the increased cost of holding the nicer properties offset the extra rental income they brought in to where there was no financial advantage to the more expensive properties.  In our area, the rent curve sloped down the higher you went.  So while you could get $1.25/sf for a 1000sf C class property, you couldn't get $1.25/sf for a 2,500sf B class property. 

     Once you adopt the premise that there is no rent advantage to a nicer / bigger B class property... the most lucrative place to put your money is where you will spend the least amount for the property, down to the point that the other negative "D class factors" override that formula (dangerous neighborhoods, drugs, and the other "looks like / smells like crap" comments the original poster mentioned.  I translate that to be "I was looking for NICER C class properties"... maybe call it C+.

    So maybe I am the one-off guy here that retired on C class properties ... but both my wife and I worked full time 6 figure corporate jobs before getting into real estate... and 2 years in - buying hard and fast -  we were able to both quit our jobs at the point we got to 20 units.  We are now at 37 units across about 25 properties and netting well above what we were with our corporate jobs.  In that time we have invested just over $1 million  of our own funds in our properties, and probably cash-out refied / sold another $500,000 in properties  we have put back into buying additional properties and paying down our properties.  From an appreciation perspective, we did not see our C class properties do any worse than any other class properties in our area- including our own personal house.  They have all at least doubled, and some of our best buys actually quadrupled in value over what we paid for them.  Our current real estate portfolio value is over $6 million and only 7 of our properties remain financed.  

    Had we use the same amount of money to buy B and higher class properties, we could have only bought about 20 properties, versus 40.   While our portfolio might have been a similar value today in that scenario, our cash flow definitely would have been lower, and we would not have been able to maneuver as well as we have.  One of the coolest things we achieved before rates started going up was to be able to sell off a property, and use the increased equity to not only pay off the sold property, but also pay off another financed property as well - all the while not losing any cash flow.  We eliminated the management and maintenance expense of the sold property and were cash flow neutral.  We did this several times, paying off properties that had the highest interest rate in our portfolio.  C class real estate has been very good to us!  Lots of ways you can make the game work!

    All the best!

    Randy


     Thanks for the response.  There is no one size fits all strategy and every market has some say in what strategy will work.

    The question I have is why were your variable costs now lower on your B class properties? Turnover, delinquency, maintenance, CapEx as a % of rent are always lower on higher end properties.

    For example a roof costs $25,000 in Buffalo NY.  If you have a C class property worth 100K with $1600 in rent vs a B class worth 200K with $2800 in rent that roof as a % of rent just blew up your budget.  

    The economies of scale always seem to favor higher end, higher rent properties, because labor and material costs do not change. 

    @Matthew Irish-Jones

    When I run proforma numbers I am usually using a dollar amount per month for those expense calculations.  For more expensive properties I would use $200/month for maintenance.  For a cheaper properties $100/month.  I could probably acknowledge that I was often looking at slightly larger properties when looking at nicer grade houses... so the B (2/1) was likely bigger as well.   While I agree with your premise that a higher rent property will yield lower variable costs... when it comes to looking for rental properties, my objective was to find what rented for the highest amount with the lowest entry cost.  This tended to be the C class properties as I mentioned.  Because a B grade 2/1 property wouldn't readily demand much more money than a C+  2/1 property (from a renter) it became more of a question of finding the most affordable version of that size property.  It just seemed that the driving force was more the size and bedroom allocation than the grade of the property - as long as it was at least in a descent neighborhood.  What's crazy is that in the past year, our C- properties are now renting for as much as our B properties were a year ago.  As I renew leases I'm really having to think through where the market has moved recently, while not trying to rent-shock our existing tenants!

    Randy

  • Matthew Irish-JonesBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Randall Alan:
    Quote from @Matthew Irish-Jones:
    Quote from @Randall Alan:

    I don't disagree with most of what the original post says... but I will throw out a little counterpoint to the group:

    I am here to tell you that you can certainly make real estate work just fine with C class properties in average areas where you are aiming for cash flow.  In 5 years (starting at age 47) we have purchased 45 units.  About 6 of those were flips or eventually sold to take advantage of acquired equity.  One was definitely a D class property, and it was definitely a bad experience in retrospect... lots of turn over, difficult tenants, furthest away from us, etc.  But in the end we sold it for more than double what we paid for it 3 years later (so not a total loss).  But definitely agree with avoiding D class!

    I think one point that is missed is the fact that we were able to leverage our available funds WAY better with C class properties.  In our area at the time (5 years ago), a B class property was selling in the mid $200,000's.  We were buying $75 - $100,000 C class properties.  I am a huge numbers guy... and quite literally, both B and C class properties were netting the same amount of money in rent after all expenses... which was really surprising to me.  Put another way, the increased cost of holding the nicer properties offset the extra rental income they brought in to where there was no financial advantage to the more expensive properties.  In our area, the rent curve sloped down the higher you went.  So while you could get $1.25/sf for a 1000sf C class property, you couldn't get $1.25/sf for a 2,500sf B class property. 

     Once you adopt the premise that there is no rent advantage to a nicer / bigger B class property... the most lucrative place to put your money is where you will spend the least amount for the property, down to the point that the other negative "D class factors" override that formula (dangerous neighborhoods, drugs, and the other "looks like / smells like crap" comments the original poster mentioned.  I translate that to be "I was looking for NICER C class properties"... maybe call it C+.

    So maybe I am the one-off guy here that retired on C class properties ... but both my wife and I worked full time 6 figure corporate jobs before getting into real estate... and 2 years in - buying hard and fast -  we were able to both quit our jobs at the point we got to 20 units.  We are now at 37 units across about 25 properties and netting well above what we were with our corporate jobs.  In that time we have invested just over $1 million  of our own funds in our properties, and probably cash-out refied / sold another $500,000 in properties  we have put back into buying additional properties and paying down our properties.  From an appreciation perspective, we did not see our C class properties do any worse than any other class properties in our area- including our own personal house.  They have all at least doubled, and some of our best buys actually quadrupled in value over what we paid for them.  Our current real estate portfolio value is over $6 million and only 7 of our properties remain financed.  

    Had we use the same amount of money to buy B and higher class properties, we could have only bought about 20 properties, versus 40.   While our portfolio might have been a similar value today in that scenario, our cash flow definitely would have been lower, and we would not have been able to maneuver as well as we have.  One of the coolest things we achieved before rates started going up was to be able to sell off a property, and use the increased equity to not only pay off the sold property, but also pay off another financed property as well - all the while not losing any cash flow.  We eliminated the management and maintenance expense of the sold property and were cash flow neutral.  We did this several times, paying off properties that had the highest interest rate in our portfolio.  C class real estate has been very good to us!  Lots of ways you can make the game work!

    All the best!

    Randy


     Thanks for the response.  There is no one size fits all strategy and every market has some say in what strategy will work.

    The question I have is why were your variable costs now lower on your B class properties? Turnover, delinquency, maintenance, CapEx as a % of rent are always lower on higher end properties.

    For example a roof costs $25,000 in Buffalo NY.  If you have a C class property worth 100K with $1600 in rent vs a B class worth 200K with $2800 in rent that roof as a % of rent just blew up your budget.  

    The economies of scale always seem to favor higher end, higher rent properties, because labor and material costs do not change. 

    @Matthew Irish-Jones

    When I run proforma numbers I am usually using a dollar amount per month for those expense calculations.  For more expensive properties I would use $200/month for maintenance.  For a cheaper properties $100/month.  I could probably acknowledge that I was often looking at slightly larger properties when looking at nicer grade houses... so the B (2/1) was likely bigger as well.   While I agree with your premise that a higher rent property will yield lower variable costs... when it comes to looking for rental properties, my objective was to find what rented for the highest amount with the lowest entry cost.  This tended to be the C class properties as I mentioned.  Because a B grade 2/1 property wouldn't readily demand much more money than a C+  2/1 property (from a renter) it became more of a question of finding the most affordable version of that size property.  It just seemed that the driving force was more the size and bedroom allocation than the grade of the property - as long as it was at least in a descent neighborhood.  What's crazy is that in the past year, our C- properties are now renting for as much as our B properties were a year ago.  As I renew leases I'm really having to think through where the market has moved recently, while not trying to rent-shock our existing tenants!

    Randy


    Very interesting Randy. Do you ever run an IRR calculation? I wonder what your outcome would be when you consider appreciation, debt paydown, etc..

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  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Matthew Irish-Jones:

    @Jim K. Thank you. So now do you buy higher end properties in better locations?

    No, I still buy in pretty much the same area, but the situation has changed to the point that I now live there and property values have doubled and even tripled from where they were when I first started buying there. I now know the area like the back of my hand and I think I'll stick here for the rest of my acquisition timeline. There are still ugly areas nearby, just as ugly as our area was when we started, but I won't buy there.

    Two point have also been made elsewhere that I'd like to address as well. What's the dividing line between C and D? I agree that it's a bit murky, but several years of studying the problem have given me some clarity. We used to call D-areas "war zones," and I think we should probably go back. The dividing line between C/D is, very simply, the presence or lack of the rule of law. A D-class neighborhood is one where the police do not answer domestic violence or noise nuisance calls and wait 20 minutes to show up to a burglary call, versus a C-class neighborhood where the police show up faster and more reliably when your neighbor is blasting his stereo at 2 in the morning or beating his wife to death or scrapping copper out of your project house.

    Second, as @Jay Hinrichs said earlier, there's this tendency nowadays to normalize 2010-2021. THOSE YEARS WERE NOT NORMAL. A monkey could buy in 2010 and sell in 2021 and make money. Rents rose, property values rose, lives changed. It was a golden era, and those days are G-O-N-E now. A lot of outliers made money, and beat their chest about it, but if you tried some of the same moves today with the same predictions some of these people made, you'd get an unholy beatdown.

    I continue to believe that these forums are one of the few places in real estate investing where you get to hear some of the hard truths of this business from people who have actually experienced them and lived to tell the tale. A lot of first-time investors call us dream-killers and Debbie Downers, but I for one wish I had had more cautious advice from honest people from the get-go. Instead, I had a lot of tambourine-banging con-artists telling me the sky's the limit and all you have to do is believe in yourself. Until they stop showing the late-nights ads of guys with abs the beach drinking the light beer and pawing at the scantily-clad young ladies, I'm not changing my mind about the role of these forums.

  • Matthew Irish-JonesBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @James Hamling:
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
    Quote from @Matthew Irish-Jones:

    To truly sit on a beach with abs ........

    Yes, but in another 20 years, you will be sitting anywhere you want, my friend.

    And when you mention the abs and the beach, I assume you're talking about me....? 😂


     Now that's some sexy 6-pack ab's ya got there, lol. 


     I should have added the more you work the less you work on your abs.  I fear I will never sit on a beach with abs at this point. 

    Irish Jones Realty4.947 Reviews
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  • Real Estate Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2017 · 290 posts · 233 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Nathan Gesner:
    Quote from @Matthew Irish-Jones:

    There's more than one way to skin a cat.


     I've always thought there's got to be a better version of this phrase.    "There's more than 1 way to shave a donkey!"   Maybe that'll catch on in 2023. Be the new hot phrase on the streets. 

    I'll give a +1 to  people trying to build slow, steady wealth...get into the  B+  properties.   I'm only 4 years into the game, but it's been pretty consistent, seeing the difference in they way tenants treat your properties.  

    I've avoided any "heavy" damage, but a friend told me about a long term tenant who moved out, and some how managed $15k damage.   He admitted he didn't keep an eye on the property after a while and it was a wreck. 

    It's all a calculated risk.

  • Investor · MA · Member since 2020 · 31 posts · 14 votes
    3y

    This is a good post, I think a lot of people are under this assumption that you described when starting out, like myself. We bought a property that looked great on the spreadsheet, 10-12% projected returns. But out of the 2.5 years we held this property, we had positive cash flow in about 3 months of that time. We were focused on the numbers and we ignored the area we purchased in. We happened to unkowingly purchase a property where there was high level of gang activity. This drove away good tenants and only attracted headaches for the entirety of our ownership. 

    We were lucky enough to have been able to sell this property for more than we purchased it for, enough to mostly cover the losses we had endured, though I'm sure there are other who weren't as fortunate. We lost some money after all was said and done, we considered this our cheap education and will be moving forward with much more dilligence. I hope those starting out can take from your post and avoid some potential headaches. 

  • Randall AlanPro Member
    Investor · Lakeland, FL · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Matthew Irish-Jones:
    Quote from @Randall Alan:
    Quote from @Matthew Irish-Jones:
    Quote from @Randall Alan:

    I don't disagree with most of what the original post says... but I will throw out a little counterpoint to the group:

    I am here to tell you that you can certainly make real estate work just fine with C class properties in average areas where you are aiming for cash flow.  In 5 years (starting at age 47) we have purchased 45 units.  About 6 of those were flips or eventually sold to take advantage of acquired equity.  One was definitely a D class property, and it was definitely a bad experience in retrospect... lots of turn over, difficult tenants, furthest away from us, etc.  But in the end we sold it for more than double what we paid for it 3 years later (so not a total loss).  But definitely agree with avoiding D class!

    I think one point that is missed is the fact that we were able to leverage our available funds WAY better with C class properties.  In our area at the time (5 years ago), a B class property was selling in the mid $200,000's.  We were buying $75 - $100,000 C class properties.  I am a huge numbers guy... and quite literally, both B and C class properties were netting the same amount of money in rent after all expenses... which was really surprising to me.  Put another way, the increased cost of holding the nicer properties offset the extra rental income they brought in to where there was no financial advantage to the more expensive properties.  In our area, the rent curve sloped down the higher you went.  So while you could get $1.25/sf for a 1000sf C class property, you couldn't get $1.25/sf for a 2,500sf B class property. 

     Once you adopt the premise that there is no rent advantage to a nicer / bigger B class property... the most lucrative place to put your money is where you will spend the least amount for the property, down to the point that the other negative "D class factors" override that formula (dangerous neighborhoods, drugs, and the other "looks like / smells like crap" comments the original poster mentioned.  I translate that to be "I was looking for NICER C class properties"... maybe call it C+.

    So maybe I am the one-off guy here that retired on C class properties ... but both my wife and I worked full time 6 figure corporate jobs before getting into real estate... and 2 years in - buying hard and fast -  we were able to both quit our jobs at the point we got to 20 units.  We are now at 37 units across about 25 properties and netting well above what we were with our corporate jobs.  In that time we have invested just over $1 million  of our own funds in our properties, and probably cash-out refied / sold another $500,000 in properties  we have put back into buying additional properties and paying down our properties.  From an appreciation perspective, we did not see our C class properties do any worse than any other class properties in our area- including our own personal house.  They have all at least doubled, and some of our best buys actually quadrupled in value over what we paid for them.  Our current real estate portfolio value is over $6 million and only 7 of our properties remain financed.  

    Had we use the same amount of money to buy B and higher class properties, we could have only bought about 20 properties, versus 40.   While our portfolio might have been a similar value today in that scenario, our cash flow definitely would have been lower, and we would not have been able to maneuver as well as we have.  One of the coolest things we achieved before rates started going up was to be able to sell off a property, and use the increased equity to not only pay off the sold property, but also pay off another financed property as well - all the while not losing any cash flow.  We eliminated the management and maintenance expense of the sold property and were cash flow neutral.  We did this several times, paying off properties that had the highest interest rate in our portfolio.  C class real estate has been very good to us!  Lots of ways you can make the game work!

    All the best!

    Randy


     Thanks for the response.  There is no one size fits all strategy and every market has some say in what strategy will work.

    The question I have is why were your variable costs now lower on your B class properties? Turnover, delinquency, maintenance, CapEx as a % of rent are always lower on higher end properties.

    For example a roof costs $25,000 in Buffalo NY.  If you have a C class property worth 100K with $1600 in rent vs a B class worth 200K with $2800 in rent that roof as a % of rent just blew up your budget.  

    The economies of scale always seem to favor higher end, higher rent properties, because labor and material costs do not change. 

    @Matthew Irish-Jones

    When I run proforma numbers I am usually using a dollar amount per month for those expense calculations.  For more expensive properties I would use $200/month for maintenance.  For a cheaper properties $100/month.  I could probably acknowledge that I was often looking at slightly larger properties when looking at nicer grade houses... so the B (2/1) was likely bigger as well.   While I agree with your premise that a higher rent property will yield lower variable costs... when it comes to looking for rental properties, my objective was to find what rented for the highest amount with the lowest entry cost.  This tended to be the C class properties as I mentioned.  Because a B grade 2/1 property wouldn't readily demand much more money than a C+  2/1 property (from a renter) it became more of a question of finding the most affordable version of that size property.  It just seemed that the driving force was more the size and bedroom allocation than the grade of the property - as long as it was at least in a descent neighborhood.  What's crazy is that in the past year, our C- properties are now renting for as much as our B properties were a year ago.  As I renew leases I'm really having to think through where the market has moved recently, while not trying to rent-shock our existing tenants!

    Randy


    Very interesting Randy. Do you ever run an IRR calculation? I wonder what your outcome would be when you consider appreciation, debt paydown, etc..

    @Matthew Irish-Jones

    I don't go that deep into the numbers usually... I go so far as to look at my monthly cash-flow and how that stacks up to my target. All of these are pretty much solid C properties... nothing special. When I started out I wanted at least $300/month/door. After 5 years of purchases, including paying off some units with the proceeds of flips, etc, we are at $726/unit cash flow after PITI and maintenance reserve across our 37 unit portfolio. I've blurred the locations of the screen shots below just because I prefer to be a little cautious of my online identity... but these are 6 of our units with purchase values and todays values (2 duplexes, and 2 SFH). The total purchase price of the 6 units was $292,500 - about the price of one B+ property at the time. The 6 units have a combined monthly rental income of $7,175 - and that is with several tenants that are rented to a couple of hundred dollars under market. The cheaper 2 of these were purchased with cash. The duplexes were leveraged at purchase. I'm betting you will probably estimate our IRR is doing fine! :). We bought 12 properties in 2018, and 9 properties in 2019! Looking at the sales dates on 3 of these they were closed on within 2 weeks of each other! I'm pretty sure we paid for our realtor's house between those 2 years on the commissions!

    All the best!

    Randy

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Randall Alan:
    Quote from @Matthew Irish-Jones:
    Quote from @Randall Alan:
    Quote from @Matthew Irish-Jones:
    Quote from @Randall Alan:

    I don't disagree with most of what the original post says... but I will throw out a little counterpoint to the group:

    I am here to tell you that you can certainly make real estate work just fine with C class properties in average areas where you are aiming for cash flow.  In 5 years (starting at age 47) we have purchased 45 units.  About 6 of those were flips or eventually sold to take advantage of acquired equity.  One was definitely a D class property, and it was definitely a bad experience in retrospect... lots of turn over, difficult tenants, furthest away from us, etc.  But in the end we sold it for more than double what we paid for it 3 years later (so not a total loss).  But definitely agree with avoiding D class!

    I think one point that is missed is the fact that we were able to leverage our available funds WAY better with C class properties.  In our area at the time (5 years ago), a B class property was selling in the mid $200,000's.  We were buying $75 - $100,000 C class properties.  I am a huge numbers guy... and quite literally, both B and C class properties were netting the same amount of money in rent after all expenses... which was really surprising to me.  Put another way, the increased cost of holding the nicer properties offset the extra rental income they brought in to where there was no financial advantage to the more expensive properties.  In our area, the rent curve sloped down the higher you went.  So while you could get $1.25/sf for a 1000sf C class property, you couldn't get $1.25/sf for a 2,500sf B class property. 

     Once you adopt the premise that there is no rent advantage to a nicer / bigger B class property... the most lucrative place to put your money is where you will spend the least amount for the property, down to the point that the other negative "D class factors" override that formula (dangerous neighborhoods, drugs, and the other "looks like / smells like crap" comments the original poster mentioned.  I translate that to be "I was looking for NICER C class properties"... maybe call it C+.

    So maybe I am the one-off guy here that retired on C class properties ... but both my wife and I worked full time 6 figure corporate jobs before getting into real estate... and 2 years in - buying hard and fast -  we were able to both quit our jobs at the point we got to 20 units.  We are now at 37 units across about 25 properties and netting well above what we were with our corporate jobs.  In that time we have invested just over $1 million  of our own funds in our properties, and probably cash-out refied / sold another $500,000 in properties  we have put back into buying additional properties and paying down our properties.  From an appreciation perspective, we did not see our C class properties do any worse than any other class properties in our area- including our own personal house.  They have all at least doubled, and some of our best buys actually quadrupled in value over what we paid for them.  Our current real estate portfolio value is over $6 million and only 7 of our properties remain financed.  

    Had we use the same amount of money to buy B and higher class properties, we could have only bought about 20 properties, versus 40.   While our portfolio might have been a similar value today in that scenario, our cash flow definitely would have been lower, and we would not have been able to maneuver as well as we have.  One of the coolest things we achieved before rates started going up was to be able to sell off a property, and use the increased equity to not only pay off the sold property, but also pay off another financed property as well - all the while not losing any cash flow.  We eliminated the management and maintenance expense of the sold property and were cash flow neutral.  We did this several times, paying off properties that had the highest interest rate in our portfolio.  C class real estate has been very good to us!  Lots of ways you can make the game work!

    All the best!

    Randy


     Thanks for the response.  There is no one size fits all strategy and every market has some say in what strategy will work.

    The question I have is why were your variable costs now lower on your B class properties? Turnover, delinquency, maintenance, CapEx as a % of rent are always lower on higher end properties.

    For example a roof costs $25,000 in Buffalo NY.  If you have a C class property worth 100K with $1600 in rent vs a B class worth 200K with $2800 in rent that roof as a % of rent just blew up your budget.  

    The economies of scale always seem to favor higher end, higher rent properties, because labor and material costs do not change. 

    @Matthew Irish-Jones

    When I run proforma numbers I am usually using a dollar amount per month for those expense calculations.  For more expensive properties I would use $200/month for maintenance.  For a cheaper properties $100/month.  I could probably acknowledge that I was often looking at slightly larger properties when looking at nicer grade houses... so the B (2/1) was likely bigger as well.   While I agree with your premise that a higher rent property will yield lower variable costs... when it comes to looking for rental properties, my objective was to find what rented for the highest amount with the lowest entry cost.  This tended to be the C class properties as I mentioned.  Because a B grade 2/1 property wouldn't readily demand much more money than a C+  2/1 property (from a renter) it became more of a question of finding the most affordable version of that size property.  It just seemed that the driving force was more the size and bedroom allocation than the grade of the property - as long as it was at least in a descent neighborhood.  What's crazy is that in the past year, our C- properties are now renting for as much as our B properties were a year ago.  As I renew leases I'm really having to think through where the market has moved recently, while not trying to rent-shock our existing tenants!

    Randy


    Very interesting Randy. Do you ever run an IRR calculation? I wonder what your outcome would be when you consider appreciation, debt paydown, etc..

    @Matthew Irish-Jones

    I don't go that deep into the numbers usually... I go so far as to look at my monthly cash-flow and how that stacks up to my target. All of these are pretty much solid C properties... nothing special. When I started out I wanted at least $300/month/door. After 5 years of purchases, including paying off some units with the proceeds of flips, etc, we are at $726/unit cash flow after PITI and maintenance reserve across our 37 unit portfolio. I've blurred the locations of the screen shots below just because I prefer to be a little cautious of my online identity... but these are 6 of our units with purchase values and todays values (2 duplexes, and 2 SFH). The total purchase price of the 6 units was $292,500 - about the price of one B+ property at the time. The 6 units have a combined monthly rental income of $7,175 - and that is with several tenants that are rented to a couple of hundred dollars under market. The cheaper 2 of these were purchased with cash. The duplexes were leveraged at purchase. I'm betting you will probably estimate our IRR is doing fine! :). We bought 12 properties in 2018, and 9 properties in 2019! Looking at the sales dates on 3 of these they were closed on within 2 weeks of each other! I'm pretty sure we paid for our realtor's house between those 2 years on the commissions!

    All the best!

    Randy


     You have 280k net in paper :) congratulation. 5 year making 280k is not bad at all....

  • Matthew Irish-JonesBusiness Member
    OP
    Real Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y

    @Joseph Waitkevich school of hard knocks. I have a doctorate from there.

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  • Rental Property Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2019 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    3y

    @Matthew Irish-Jones amen

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    3y

    "The Book on How to Invest in Real Estate"

    Buy in growing areas and let time do the rest.  Add value to accelerate growth.

    The End

  • Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Mike Dymski:

    "The Book on How to Invest in Real Estate"

    Buy in growing areas and let time do the rest.  Add value to accelerate growth.

    The End

    If I can write a book
    "Buy in neighborhood where nobody is selling" 
  • Jay ThomasPro Member
    Real Estate Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 715 votes
    3y

    I completely agree with the advice given in this statement. The cash flow trap is a common pitfall for many new investors, who underestimate the amount of work required to successfully invest in real estate. It is crucial to have realistic expectations about the time and effort required to build wealth through real estate investing, and to prioritize location and asset condition over potential returns

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