How the heck do people get started investing in NYC?

How the heck do people get started investing in NYC?

New York City, NY · Member since 2016 · 1 post · 1 vote

Hello all! I am a native New Yorker and I am just now in a position where I can seriously start saving for a down payment on a home. I currently have only $10,000 set aside which--in this city--is a paltry sum.

I used to work for an extremely well known NY real estate scion (last name starts with W and ends with two Fs) and he would always talk about how he got his start buying homes in Washington Heights and the Bronx. If I recall correctly, his first purchase was a 32-unit apartment building.

Now my question is this: how in the heck does anyone start investing in real estate by buying a 32-unit building in New York today? Or even just a two family! It simply seems impossible unless you are already extremely wealthy. Or am I just looking in the wrong places? I would imagine I'd need 500k down for a multi unit apartment building and that will take me forever to save. In the '70s those areas were plagued with economic and social blight and while I in no way want the era of the fiscal crisis to come back in this city, I can't help but feel bad that in this town, real estate is prohibitively expensive, especially when it comes to multifamilies. On top of that, NYC is the land of the co-op, and they are hard to invest in so we're stuck with ridiculous expensive SFHs and multi units, or co-ops you can't rent out due to maintenance fees being high and co-op boards being strict.

So how does someone start today in NYC? Is it better to look into other cities like Baltimore, Chicago, Philly, St. Louis and Indianapolis?

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Investor / Broker · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2016 · 665 posts · 1k+ votes
9y

If you think you might want to live in NYC (or major Metropolitan City such as SF) for the long term, but not as an owner, then you risk getting Priced out of your NYC Rental unless you are lucky to get a Rent-Stabilized Apartment.

Rents will generally climb much higher than your Fixed Rate Mortgage payments over the years.

In the year 2000, for example, I owned a 2 Unit Rental building near Prospect Park, where the rents were around $600 per month. Today, those same apartments now rents for $1,800 per month with no other renovations other than repairs for normal wear and tear.

There has been a few of my REI colleagues that Invested in other areas which were paying them some cashflow. They never bought in NYC. Unfortunately, the increase in their cashflow from the investments outside of NYC versus the increase in their NYC Rental Apartment didn't match.

One of those same friends moved out of NYC because he couldn't afford to live here anymore. As one of the Presidential candidates said about NYC rents.... "The Rent is too Damn High!"

Living in NYC, even in cheap neighborhoods will always be expensive and will continue to climb.

To Graphically illustrate what happened to the Rentals of my building, here is a Chart which shows what the rental increases would have been, taking into consideration that the Apts rented for $600 in 2000 and wound up at $1,800 in the year 2016.

I extended the years so that we can see what the future Rent could be like if the same Rental Increases continue at the same pace. You many not imagine that if you are paying $1,800 per month now that your rent will increase to $5,784 by 2033. HOWEVER, that was probably the exact thought of my tenants in 2000 when their rents was just $600 per month.

Obviously, if the rents increase so much in the last 16 years, the value of the building increased hugely as well.

This is JUST observations based on facts from one of my multiple properties. The other properties have similar experiences and they are in different neighborhoods in Brooklyn.

I will say that past experience does not indicate future experience. But if you intend on living in a good neighborhood in a Major Metropolitan City...... you risk being priced out of both buying and Renting if you don't actually own your property before the inevitable Value and Rental Increases become overburdening.

Let's say that in the year 2000... you were thinking that the particular rental I eventually boughtwas expensive with Mortgage payments being a bit above what the rent would be, say, $750 per month versus $600 per month renting during that time. 

Using hindsight today, if you actually purchased the unit versus just renting it, you would absolutely had done incredibly well as you are saving over $1k per month from the current rent of you unit you own.

If you owned and you wanted to increase your cashflow now that it's 2016,  you can move out of your place to a low rental City and rent the unit you owned since the year 2000 for $1k per month cashflow!!

Now, let's look at it in the future.

Today, you can rent the apt for $1,800 per month. That apt, if bought, will have a 30 year fixed rate Mortgage Payment of say, $2k per month.

However, in the next 16 years, the rent will obviously move up. If it moves up to $3k per month, and that's going to be a conservative rental increase, was it worth it to the homeowner to have bought the Apt to lock in their fixed rate mortgage payment now at $2k when their rents is at $3k in 2033 if they didn't own?

Some will say it wasn't worth it. OK... what about $4k in the year 2033? What about potentially $5k per month?

You cannot treat good neighborhoods in NYC the same as non-Metropolitan cities. They two are like Apples and Oranges.

But again, IF you really want to live in a Major Metro City for the long term....... Buying your home should be part of your consideration. The risk of being outpriced is very high.

Investor Llew

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  • Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 70 posts · 30 votes
    9y
    I'd suggest you look in other states, either through turnkey properties or setting up your teams (contractors, agents, etc) in those states. NY is primarily an appreciation play, and it will be hard to cash flow based on market rents...especially considering how high prices have run. The sky high prices also create a barrier to entry for new investors. Other drawbacks of investing in NY are the unfriendly landlord laws and high taxes. As far as apartment buildings, I wouldn't jump into that game right off the bat. It's a different beast altogether and probably for a more seasoned investor...especially in a market as competitive as NYC. The only way for a newbie to break into the NY market and be someone successful in my opinion is to buy a duplex outside of the manhattan borough and house hack (i.e. Live in one unit and rent the other). Probably still will be hard to cash flow but may at least break even and give a newbie some solid landlord experience.
  • Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2016 · 18 posts · 8 votes
    9y

    House hacking could work. My daughter bought a 2 family (I've come to realize that those are known as duplexes to non New Yorkers) and she rents the smaller apartment. Since rent is so high, her tenants rent pays most of her mortgage. It really can work.

  • New Jersey, NJ · Member since 2015 · 327 posts · 137 votes
    9y
    Anne N. New York City, queens, Bronx, Brooklyn and maybe states island are all high prices for a beginner investors to come in and be successful right away. What seems to be very profitable in real estate in NYC is developing.
  • Investor · New York City, NY · Member since 2014 · 370 posts · 85 votes
    9y

    Maybe a city lottery. Look on the HPD site, Nys mortgage website might have down payment assistance programs. A duplex seems best.

  • Investor / Broker · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2016 · 665 posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    If you think you might want to live in NYC (or major Metropolitan City such as SF) for the long term, but not as an owner, then you risk getting Priced out of your NYC Rental unless you are lucky to get a Rent-Stabilized Apartment.

    Rents will generally climb much higher than your Fixed Rate Mortgage payments over the years.

    In the year 2000, for example, I owned a 2 Unit Rental building near Prospect Park, where the rents were around $600 per month. Today, those same apartments now rents for $1,800 per month with no other renovations other than repairs for normal wear and tear.

    There has been a few of my REI colleagues that Invested in other areas which were paying them some cashflow. They never bought in NYC. Unfortunately, the increase in their cashflow from the investments outside of NYC versus the increase in their NYC Rental Apartment didn't match.

    One of those same friends moved out of NYC because he couldn't afford to live here anymore. As one of the Presidential candidates said about NYC rents.... "The Rent is too Damn High!"

    Living in NYC, even in cheap neighborhoods will always be expensive and will continue to climb.

    To Graphically illustrate what happened to the Rentals of my building, here is a Chart which shows what the rental increases would have been, taking into consideration that the Apts rented for $600 in 2000 and wound up at $1,800 in the year 2016.

    I extended the years so that we can see what the future Rent could be like if the same Rental Increases continue at the same pace. You many not imagine that if you are paying $1,800 per month now that your rent will increase to $5,784 by 2033. HOWEVER, that was probably the exact thought of my tenants in 2000 when their rents was just $600 per month.

    Obviously, if the rents increase so much in the last 16 years, the value of the building increased hugely as well.

    This is JUST observations based on facts from one of my multiple properties. The other properties have similar experiences and they are in different neighborhoods in Brooklyn.

    I will say that past experience does not indicate future experience. But if you intend on living in a good neighborhood in a Major Metropolitan City...... you risk being priced out of both buying and Renting if you don't actually own your property before the inevitable Value and Rental Increases become overburdening.

    Let's say that in the year 2000... you were thinking that the particular rental I eventually boughtwas expensive with Mortgage payments being a bit above what the rent would be, say, $750 per month versus $600 per month renting during that time. 

    Using hindsight today, if you actually purchased the unit versus just renting it, you would absolutely had done incredibly well as you are saving over $1k per month from the current rent of you unit you own.

    If you owned and you wanted to increase your cashflow now that it's 2016,  you can move out of your place to a low rental City and rent the unit you owned since the year 2000 for $1k per month cashflow!!

    Now, let's look at it in the future.

    Today, you can rent the apt for $1,800 per month. That apt, if bought, will have a 30 year fixed rate Mortgage Payment of say, $2k per month.

    However, in the next 16 years, the rent will obviously move up. If it moves up to $3k per month, and that's going to be a conservative rental increase, was it worth it to the homeowner to have bought the Apt to lock in their fixed rate mortgage payment now at $2k when their rents is at $3k in 2033 if they didn't own?

    Some will say it wasn't worth it. OK... what about $4k in the year 2033? What about potentially $5k per month?

    You cannot treat good neighborhoods in NYC the same as non-Metropolitan cities. They two are like Apples and Oranges.

    But again, IF you really want to live in a Major Metro City for the long term....... Buying your home should be part of your consideration. The risk of being outpriced is very high.

    Investor Llew

  • Investor · Coppell, TX · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 646 votes
    9y

       Hello and welcome to BP!  The first thing that I would recommend that you forget about everything you said.  The first thing I would do is to contact the experienced and successful people and get their opinions and ware looking for and how much you want to spend.  Try to do what the present says and forget about the past and only ask what they think about the future.  I would talk to the Chamber of Commerce and to talk to an experienced and long term city council person to see what is going to happen in the future.  They cannot tell you what is going to happen in the future and they can only tell you what has been approved to happen in the future.

    I would recommend going to local REI clubs and events that are not sales based and meet and talk to successful people that did it in your interest. You might even meet a Mentor. Most likely the units will increase a little but do not count on it. Base your current posited cash flow and the amenities. People are generally paying more to rent units that are close to where they work. Do not start on doing anything unusual.

    Now I live just outside of the Dallas Texas area and I am 60 years old and starting out on a new profession and I do not know that much about New York but I know of its success in real estate.  I would also consider its location and convenience to get in and out.   I would tend to listen to local people.  Go with what your anaysis says and your guts.  Keep it as simple as possible and be patient with everything.p

    Do not listen to those that do not have real estate experience.  Have the confidence to hire outside people that will help you succeed.  Find well expire fed and local professionals that will help you.  Do not try to do everything yourself.  Stay as close to town that you can afford.  Just do what is average in that neighberhood.  Always remember to do a math anaysis on your prospective properties.

    Good luck to you!

  • Investor · Sunnyside, Queens, NY · Member since 2015 · 213 posts · 159 votes
    9y

    I'm an investor in NYC and while I own some property here, I have shifted my recent investing over the last couple of years outside of the North East. NYC real estate investing is a very insular market - I am talking about the full-time investors, not the once-off's. They do this for a living, come from families that do this for a living, have generational wealth and/or are syndicating deals out to domestic and international investors. It took me a while to get the message that NYC was not the be all, end all. 

    If you are truly determined to invest here, uou need an EDGE in order to get cash-flow positive. House-hacking is one way to do it (I did it; 15 years ago I bought a 3bd/2bth apartment and lived with two apartments for almost eight years in order to pay off the mortgage with 25% down). 

    Salaries are SKY HIGH here. You are competing against folks that make $300k a year and can save $10k a MONTH very easily. 

    The truth of the matter is you need to know what lane you can drive in - if you don't come from money and/or can't save significant sums of money, it is going to be very difficult get a toehold here. Downshift, look at outlying areas like the Bronx where you can still pick up a 2 or 3 fam for $400k - however even with an FHA loan you would need to bring $50k-$60k to the table to close.

  • Investor / Broker · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2016 · 665 posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Stephanie Walkes

    @Anne N.

    @Amit Kal

    Stephanie's Daughter's strategy of House Hacking the 2 Family (duplex) house is the exact strategy I did when I started in Brooklyn in 1998.

    Back then, the house I bought in Ditmas Park Brooklyn was $340k and my Partner and I got a Mortgage of $306k (10% down, 90% financed).

    Of course we heard all the remarks by Family and Friends and other people who believed that NYC properties are so expensive and not worth it. Imagine that in 1998 a 2 Family in Ditmas Park Brooklyn is not worth the $340k we paid? Let's see what happened.

    By 2002, the property skyrocketed to $550k. See Appraisal:

    Here is where it seems I differ than most investors. When you Calculate an ROI.... you don't just analyze the Cash on Cash Return (CoCR) because if we did that, we would never have bought this Brooklyn Property!! The CoCR would have been negative at 10% down!

    So, the property was bought in 1998 for $340k with 10% down and closing costs of approx. $17k. We did about $15k of renovations so the total investment in 1998 was $66k.

    In 2002, we could have sold the property for $550k, paid off the remaining balance of the Mortgage and walked away with a hell of a Profit. Here is the Calculations:

    Here is the Purchase Entry in NYC Register. They didn't record the Purchase Price but they recorded the Deed AND the Mortgage which was $305,100 back then (as opposed to my $306k in the calculations which approximating the 90% LTV but not using exact numbers) in 1998:

    Next, I'm going to Calculate the ROI based upon the Appraisal on 10/2002:

    The Total ROI, calculating both the Purchase Costs and the Sale Proceeds from 1998 to 2002 resulted in a total ROI of 232%! The Average for the 4 years is 58% Per Year.

    Where else will you get that kind of Return?!

    Now, the Cashflow is quite different. It was negative for about 2 years, but then also skyrocketed by 2002.

    Today, that Investment property is now worth $1.5 Million and cashflows $2k per Month!

    Why would I invest anywhere else?!

    For these kinds of Investments...... you find anyway you can get into it. Partners, house hacking, etc.

    Where are you going to Match this kind of investment?!

    BTW, I've done this 8 time in 20 years with similar results (or better).

    I have proven this time and time again. But I keep hearing the same responses..... you cannot depend on Appreciation... negative cashflow is a bad investment... etc.

    No matter what I say or prove, the 20 years of my investment successes will never convince a lot of other Investors who only do initial Cashflow investing. That's why I call it the "Cult of Cashflow." They will only see their way of investing as the only way.

    Investor Llew

  • Investor · Sunnyside, Queens, NY · Member since 2015 · 213 posts · 159 votes
    9y

    No disagreement here @Llewelyn A.! You and I have both done the same thing and done well at it.  The only difference for me, at this stage of my life is that I want to match my day to day liabilities with predictable and consistent cash flow.  I'm no longer in a situation where I want to take money out of my pocket every month for the next two or five years in order to hopefully get appreciation. You have been stepping up to the plate to hit triples and homeruns but you need deep pockets in order to keep that strategy going. I step up to the plate and hit single after single and knowing I can participate in more deals per year and I get to enjoy the snowball effect of many units positively cash flowing which I can then use to either pay expenses or use for the next investment. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Mount Vernon, NY · Member since 2016 · 89 posts · 125 votes
    9y

    Hi @Anne N. as mentioned before house hacking is still a viable solution in The Bronx. Not all co-ops are cost prohibitive to rent out. Let's connect. I know of a complex in a decent area of Yonkers if you're interested. 

  • Queens, NY · Member since 2014 · 153 posts · 64 votes
    9y

    @Llewelyn A. sent you a colleague request

  • Investor · Yonkers, NY · Member since 2016 · 6 posts · 9 votes
    9y

    @Anne N., you should definitely look into buying a 2-4 family under the FHA 203k program in either Yonkers, Mt. Vernon or the Bronx to get started. The advantage of the program is you can buy something distressed at a discount and get the funds to buy and rehab. This has several advantages for you.

    1) The FHA 203k program requires very little down payment, as little as 3.5%

    2) If you find the right place, you can benefit from appreciation right off the bat after you rehab

    This is how I personally started investing.  It was a safe way with not a lot of money to get in the game.  I still own the home today, 9 years later.

    Like anything there are some cons like high closing costs and the property must be your primary residence for a few years but in my opinion, this is the best way for a new investor to start investing in RE, specially in high value areas like NYC.

  • Elmhurst, NY · Member since 2016 · 32 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    Is this Scion named Steve Witkoff by any chance? First name that popped up in my head b/c i'm in Commercial Real Estate in the City. Must be quite talented because his group is quite selective.

  • Rental Property Investor · Chappaqua, NY · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 947 votes
    9y
    Anne N. I like Felderi Santiago got my start in NY with an FHA on a
  • New York, NY · Member since 2017 · 81 posts · 19 votes
    9y

    same situation at the moment . Can't find sumthing that cash flows near me in Brooklyn @John Hickey

  • Rental Property Investor · Chappaqua, NY · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 947 votes
    9y
    Chris Breezy I'm in contract selling at 3 fam with NOI of 10,200. Sold it for 1.7m it's in bed stuy. They are out there.
  • New York, NY · Member since 2017 · 81 posts · 19 votes
    9y

    what's noi @John Hickey ? 

  • Rental Property Investor · Chappaqua, NY · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 947 votes
    9y
    Chris Breezy it's one of the numbers you need to know when looking at a deal. Gross rents- expenses= net operating income. Do that on every house you look at. Put all the numbers and individual expenses on a spreadsheet. After a while when you look at numbers you'll know if something is wrong, something is too expensive(i.e. Water bills, taxes) and when you have a deal.
  • New York, NY · Member since 2017 · 81 posts · 19 votes
    9y

    @John Hickey cool cool do u have advice on how I cud find those numbers such as insurance water gases electric taxes and all

  • Rental Property Investor · Chappaqua, NY · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 947 votes
    9y
    Chris Breezy when you look at properties ask the owner for expenses like water/sewer and utility bills and taxes(double check what the owner says on taxes with municipality, they might have discounts like OO star or veterans/widower etc). For insurance I would get an agent, explain what coverage you want and ask him to quote anything you make an offer on. Some landlords don't keep good records, others will lie. Once you have looked at 100 properties in an area you'll know what the expenses should be...within reason. And if they don't have them or give you bogus numbers you'll know.
  • New York, NY · Member since 2017 · 57 posts · 11 votes
    9y
    Anne N. I'm in the same exact predicament that you are in! @Michael Enriquez, @Felderi Santiago I saw that both of you said that y'all have invested in the Yonkers, Mt. Vernon area. Is there anyway we can connect so I could possibly pick your brains, please. I would love to purchase a 3-4 family home renovate it, use one as my personal home and rent out the others.
  • Investor · Yonkers, NY · Member since 2016 · 6 posts · 9 votes
    9y

    Happy to help. Send me a message and we can connect.

  • Queens, NY · Member since 2014 · 73 posts · 12 votes
    9y

    I'm In queens,NY I would like to get started But i only have good credit No income. I'm willing to do work on a house.

  • Member since 2019 · 1 post · 1 vote
    7y

    I dislike when people say you need to be wealthy to buy in NYC.  That’s not true. 

    Go to a first time home buyer class

    Get an FHA loan 3% down

    Some programs help you repair your credit! 

    Program help with downpayment

    Google everything

    You can do it! 

    I bought my first home (2 family) at 28. Only making 28k a year. Single mom 2 kids. No money saved! 

    I didn't know of 

    All people do is talk **** and discourage people! 

    Don't ever let anyone tell you what you cannot do..... you are capable of

    Go do it!!! Research

  • Rental Property Investor · Chappaqua, NY · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 947 votes
    7y

    @Carolina De La Cruz your 100% right.

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