Discrimination in Real Estate Investment
Atlanta, GA · Member since 2017 · 41 posts · 65 votes
I know this one might get a bit controversial, but I think it's important to have this discussion. I started out investing a bit over a year ago and it was just recently I started experiencing some discrimination once I moved outside the city in Atlanta. It's something I've come to live with in the south in general but I'm really curious to see if anyone has experienced any discrimination when it comes to securing seed capital from lenders, if any of y'all have seen negotiations hurt just by racism or if it's more of a one-off occurrence. Ran an experiment having my wife do the negotiating (she's white) and I swear she's either either memorized the Art of the Deal or I'm being hurt by unconscious bias.
Maybe your wife is a better speaker or negotiator. Maybe she better presents the information needed to get the deal done. Look at yourself and your approach first before you scream discrimination. That will get you no where
A valid point, but maybe you should check your privilege before you try to belittle an issue that's very real and something I've dealt with for most of my life.
Those who discriminate are a very small minority and they usually are not anywhere near successful because they have limited themselves due to their biases. Keeping that in mind, they do exist, however the only thing you can do is continue to press forward.
The money is out there. The success is out there. No one ever said it was going to be easy. People from all backgrounds and cultures have done it before, and you do have the opportunity to do it.
Keep pushing forward. I know that it is possible.
If it makes you feel any better I've been told "no" by every lender in town at one point or another - often multiple times by the same ones. Some of the reasons seemed so absurd that if I could have somehow wedged my pale white self into a minority category it would have been an easy assumption to make. Not saying that you're not experiencing what you claim but trying to borrow money without a solid track record can be very difficult regardless of physical appearance.
Keep grinding and the planets will eventually align for you.
@Anthony Gayden appreciate the encouragement. Maybe this was more of a one-off occurrence and that I should stay hopeful that my success will be all based on my merit and hard work. I'd love to hear from you if you've personally experienced any of this or if it's just been a very small minority in your experiences.
@Ryan Murdock you make a good point, getting lending is tough and I've definitely seen that. The thing that's been bothering me more is whether some of the bid or ask prices when I come face to face with an owner or investor is a truly unbiased price or whether I am being hurt. And even if it hasn't it just leaves me wondering so I'm just trying to see what others have been experiencing. Appreciate you sharing!
@Charles A Guilford appreciate the perspective. I think you're right on with this. Had to do a bit of urban dictionary on HNIC to see what you meant haha.
@Derrick Thomas @Ryan Murdock I feel you both. Had really tough time securing any kinda bank loans for seed capital and the hard money rates are so high. I haven't personally run into things on the deal side but I have had friends that told me about things like that.
There are all types of biases out there. I am a female, general contractor, that builds spec new construction. Many times over the years when we were doing deals it was obvious that someone didn't want to deal with me because I was a woman. The important thing to me was getting the deal done, not whether or not it was me or my husband that talked to a specific person. We both had our things we were better at, etc. The thing I'd say is try not to take things personally. If a deal is good and you take it to someone, if they want to make money they'll do it, if not, they won't. Once you have some deals under your belt you'll have the confidence to not let those things bother you. Yes, there are racists, sexists, and everything else in the world. You aren't going to change that. What you are in control of is how you react to it. Rise above it or let it drag you down. My son in law is a black man, and I have seen over the years when people have treated him harshly. He is a licensed electrical contractor. He has more work than he can do, because he's good. His self worth isn't dependent upon how some fool treats him. He's a sweetheart, and I'm so happy to have him in our family. My husband passed away last year, and now it's me and my 28 year old son. We will be doing more deals, and you can bet I will not be deterred because I am a woman, or because someone might not think I have the same experience as when my husband was here. I don't. My experience is and always was different than his. But, that's ok.
Check my priveledge? That is how you respond when I suggest you look at other ways you may not be as competent as your wife?? Really if this is how you see the world, then perhaps you should examine your own racial biases. Do you know anything about me or where I came from or what Ive been thru? Check my privledge. Ok man. Figures the one screaming about racial biases cant see he is the one that has them
I can tell you this. I ran A/B testing over the course of 6 months to determine if discrimination played a part in some online conversion challenges I felt we were having. After making 4 or five modifications and waiting to see results, the last was simply removing my picture. I made it the last change because I'd suspected but didn't want to believe this was the hiccup. A friend of mi d had the same experience. Result: In the span of 6 days I generated more leads that in the previous 5 months. And it was near instantaneous. It's ugly. And nobody wants to discuss it. But today it's very real. You just have to find a workaround.
Result: In the span of 6 days I generated more leads that in the previous 5 months. And it was near instantaneous. It's ugly. And nobody wants to discuss it. But today it's very real. You just have to find a workaround.
Shouldn't be necessary, but awesome that you found a hack to get around it. :)
One of my coworkers, a Black woman, has felt it necessary to remove her glamour shot from most stuff, and be aware/conscious about when/if she puts it back on some stuff, which she only does selectively. The fact that she, like most female agents and lenders, but unlike me a male lender, ever felt compelled to take a glamour shot at all is worth noting, but not strictly on topic for this thread, so I'll not comment on it.
One of her (Jewish surname btw) best stories about being a Black woman in an industry that has very few others, is the Jewish guy who was super happy (on the phone) to finally find one of "our people" who was doing mortgages that he could work with. She played along noncommittally, because why not? He later came down to the office in person to meet her and go over some things, small Jewish hat thing on his head and all... it worked out great after the initial double take and dropped jaw, and laughs were had, but it highlights well that, yes, identity stuff still matters to consumers/sellers/buyers/etc no matter how much some might like to pretend otherwise.
Real estate professionals generally cannot discriminate on the basis of the federally protected classes. But consumers can do it all day long, and they certainly do. What your story and my coworker's story both have in common is to get the conversation/relationship going before the identity stuff has a chance to present itself, and then hopefully most of the time the conversation/relationship stuff will trump the identity stuff when/if it comes up.
Accountability. If you blame others for setbacks, you also have to give them credit for your success. F that.
Its real and is everywhere! Some like to just brush it under the rug and/or say you are playing the victim card. Definitely, bring it to the light although the reality is its going nowhere and is here to stay! I have a lender that can help you that does nationwide. Network with others to overcome the ignorance! Can hit me up you want that connection.
Maybe your wife is a better speaker or negotiator. Maybe she better presents the information needed to get the deal done. Look at yourself and your approach first before you scream discrimination. That will get you no where
@Tracy D. You forgot another maybe.. maybe he is right!
All the maybe's you could think of strangely only suggested he was wrong and almost sound as an attack/subtle hostility.
Try to understand what he is trying to explain before jumping to your conclusions.
I see you live in Neptune Beach, FL with almost 97% white and only 1.7% black; sure thats just a coincidence but this may be influencing greatly your perception and ideas of the world or apparent inability to comprehend his plight.
LOL @ telling someone you don't know to "check their privilege".
Sounds like the only prejudiced racist here is you. You don't deserve advice with that attitude.
Maybe your wife is a better speaker or negotiator. Maybe she better presents the information needed to get the deal done. Look at yourself and your approach first before you scream discrimination. That will get you no where
@Tracy D. You forgot another maybe.. maybe he is right!
All the maybe's you could think of strangely only suggested he was wrong and almost sound as an attack/subtle hostility.
Try to understand what he is trying to explain before jumping to your conclusions.
I see you live in Neptune Beach, FL with almost 97% white and only 1.7% black; sure thats just a coincidence but this may be influencing greatly your perception and ideas of the world or apparent inability to comprehend his plight.
Ok. Since there are a couple of you that seem to think you know me, let me tell you a little bit about my privelege. I have not always been where I am now. And my response was not meant to be hostile or even subtly so. But it is a fact that if you can't look into yourself and see what you might be doing wrong to stand in your own way of success and instead look for others to blame for your failure, your chances of being successful are greatly diminished. Blaming others does nothing to empower yourself. Until you find a way to fix your own inadequacies and overcome the obstacles that you yourself put in front of you, you are never going to change the way others deal with you. you have to start with you.
Yes, today I live in Neptune Beach. Yes today I have a nice house in a very nice neighborhood. Yes today I am at least in the top 20% of income earners in the United States. But I worked my tail off to get here and I had to overcome quite a bit too. I didn't grow up with the privelege that you may seem to think when you see my pic or what city I am in. In fact, I was born in Alabama to extremely poor parents and grew up with my two sisters in a run down 2 bedroom trailer in a rundown trailer park. My family was so poor that many days we went to school without food. My mom would scrape together change when she could to buy flour and we would have pancakes for dinner because we at least had water to make the pancakes. Sometimes I was lucky enough to get second hand shoes and would wear them so long that when they would get holes we would tape them together so they wouldn't fall off because shoes were required at school. I was constantly made fun of at school because my clothes never fit and sometimes didn't even match. It was all I had. My dad was an alcoholic and my mom was abusive. I was pregnant at 18 and my daughters dad who loved me so much took off as soon as he found out. This is the privelege that I grew up in. If I accepted what I was born into, I should still be in that trailer park today and maybe getting food stamps and welfare. Right?
After my daughter was born, I worked 2 jobs and went to college at night to get by. I decided I wanted more than what was given to me. I decided I wanted to learn all I could and become something better and give my daughter a better life than I had. It took me 10 years to get my bachelors degree that way but I eventually finished. And then I continued to work 2 jobs to keep trying to make things better. And when I say 2 jobs, I mean literally 80 hours a week. I did it for 14 years. I eventually met a friend and mentor who was into both real estate and network marketing that showed me there is a better way. I didn't grow up knowing how to do this. I just knew I wanted better and was willing to change whatever I had to change and do whatever I had to do to get better. I took speaking classes at Toastmasters for years and every home improvement class at Lowes and Home Depot I could. I saved every penny and bought the crappiest houses and fixed them completely myself so I could save the money to buy more instead of paying others.....all while at least still working full time. I snowballed one into another and then another and then another. Today I can do anything I want because for so long I did everything I had to do.
Does discrimination exist? Yes, I am sure it does. It exists both ways actually. Just as you took one look at where I live and my pic and decided I was privledged, I am sure many may look at you and decide things about you. The thing is, blaming racism or blaming others is not empowering. You have to take responsibility for your life and change what you don't like. You have to make yourself be the absolute best you can and you have to do whatever it takes to get what you want. You can not do that if you blame other people. You have to put that out of your head. It exists. And it sucks. But it can be overcome. Anything can be overcome if you want it bad enough. That is all I am saying.
@Tracy D. Well, I don't remember wearing mismatched shoes when I was growing up but as I got older.. well, I won't go there... :), they might have thought it was just a new style.
On a serious note, perhaps I missed the part where you were buddies with him to know so much about him to make your initial statements. Your initial response to him did not indicate any comprehension of what was discussed rather we had this:
"Maybe your wife is a better speaker or negotiator." , "Maybe she better presents the information needed to get the deal done.", "Look at yourself and your approach first before you scream discrimination. That will get you no where"
Not sure about others but that comes off wrong. There are other ways of suggesting to him if he had considered any other factors. Your statements suggested the only reason for what he had explained was because he was doing something wrong or because he was incompetent.
I am sure there are rare stories of whites growing up bruising their knuckles picking cotton in a forced labor environment. We'll just have to agree to disagree that those are rare instances.
What you just discussed as your life growing up to some other kid may sound like a life a luxury.
You mean you actually had pancakes for dinner? Mismatched shoes.. oh you actually wore shoes? You lived in a 2 bedroom trailer? Holy smokes, some other kids can only remember being tossed around from one shelter to another.
You may have grown up poor and white but that doesn't somehow mean in society the playing field is level or that some black kid never experienced/experiences hurdles or challenges simply due to his race and that you didnt/dont face despite your upbringing.
When you were old enough enter the workforce, regardless of how you grew up, the ills in society didn't get corrected. It doesn't mean that even you do not discriminate despite how you grew up. If I were to go by how you started the conversation, I wouldn't be shocked if you thought the NAACP was a terrorist organization.
Even your subsequent statements is still making strange assumptions about him:
"Until you find a way to fix your own inadequacies and overcome the obstacles that you yourself put in front of you, you are never going to change the way others deal with you. you have to start with you. "
This is just accusatory any way I look at it.
@Tracy D.
On a serious note, perhaps I missed the part where you were buddies with him to know so much about him to make your initial statements. Your initial response to him did not indicate any comprehension of what was discussed rather we had this:
"Maybe your wife is a better speaker or negotiator." , "Maybe she better presents the information needed to get the deal done.", "Look at yourself and your approach first before you scream discrimination. That will get you no where"
Even your subsequent statements is still making strange assumptions about him:
"Until you find a way to fix your own inadequacies and overcome the obstacles that you yourself put in front of you, you are never going to change the way others deal with you. you have to start with you. "
This is just accusatory any way I look at it.
How is it accusatory? He said he felt his negotiations were impeded just by racism and unconscious bias. I suggested that perhaps his negotiation skills may not be as good as his wifes. He used her as his test per his own words. Either way, if his situation is going to improve, he has to improve it. Maybe he needs to work on his skills. Maybe he needs to work on his approach. If what he was doing isnt working, and he wants a different result, something has to change with him. You cant change everybody else (or even one other person), but you can change your own result when you change the way you approach the obstacle in your way.
We may just have to agree to disagree.