Discrimination in Real Estate Investment
Atlanta, GA · Member since 2017 · 41 posts · 65 votes
Discrimination in Real Estate Investment
Most Popular Reply
As soon as some fool told me to "check my privilege", I would stop doing business with him as well.
88 Replies
- Professional · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2017 · 624 posts · 147 votes9y
@Tracy D. While I would rather discuss real estate or something else slightly more productive... I realize this could also be equally enlightening.
It is accusatory because your assumptions until this point is that the ONLY reason why he may have experienced the obstacle(s) he described was because of some fault of his. As you so eloquently put it:
"Until you find a way to fix your own inadequacies and overcome the obstacles that you yourself put in front of you, you are never going to change the way others deal with you. you have to start with you. "
This is a statement you made to almost an absolute stranger. There is no factual basis to the statement. His own inadequacies? Obstacles HE put in front of himself? Change the way others deal with you? Some people just have a problem that not even a shrink can fix.
If you are saying that there is NO probability that there is some possibility that he may have indeed experienced some form of bias (however often that was/is the case, we do not know) but if you are saying that never happened, never happens, cannot explain some form of obstacles others in his position may face, then without mincing words, I can tell you that is incorrect.
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
@Tracy D. While I would rather discuss real estate or something else slightly more productive... I realize this could also be equally enlightening.
My view is to look inside before you look outside for the answer. Yours seems to be look outside before you look within. Perhaps this is the basis for why we disagree. It is ok too.
I send my best regards to the op and hope he figures out the best solution to his dilemma.
- Professional · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2017 · 624 posts · 147 votes9y
@Tracy D. we disagree because you are/were wrong! Your view is just that... your view. Do not belittle his concerns.. do not try to play Dr. Phil... you have no fact to base some of these totally ridiculous and outrageous observations.
Unless it was the exact same lender, deal, financing, etc, I don't think you should play the discrimination factor. Private companies can decide who they want to lend to, it's their money, and their decision.
I will agree in the a--hole factor, we had a bank completely dismiss us, and said "he didn't see any way our business would succeed." He asked us "what kind of people are you renting to?" -- again, just a a--hole, and he doesn't get it. It was obvious they just didn't want to support us, regardless of everything else. We moved on to the next bank, got the financing and are good to go! Amazing how the same numbers, same everything-- 1 bank didn't want to lend to us, but the other did!
I think you need to accept the a--hole factor, and realize it's a part of the business, people have different risk tolerances, not everyone will want to work with you, and that's okay! Maybe it's because of how you look, or maybe it's your numbers, or maybe they just had a bad day-- doesn't matter--- it's all part of business. Move on, and find really good people who will support you!
Didn't the Starbucks guy get turned down by like 200 lenders?
- Investor · Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2016 · 970 posts · 1k+ votes9y
so.....what are you the yellow people? :D
That's my real picture...yep, I am a wasp. However, i know that discrimination is real in the trades, although my husband is still learning. He doesn't get why he has to talk to the masonry guy, even though I am the one that wants the job done a specific way. It's just faster to have the men talk and then i make the decision later. Some of them are harmless, they find out that I know what I am doing and have said things like "I never knew a girl who was interested in roofing."
I think that people want a connection, even an unsophisticated one such as being the same color, or from the same economic background. It's great that @Derrick Thomas has a wife of another race-- perhaps success can be increased by having her deal with the less friendly white-preferring lenders and having him develop a niche among people that would prefer to deal with an African American? But what do I know, I am a northerner through and through with not even a childhood story to tell...
- Investor · Massillon, OH · Member since 2015 · 266 posts · 156 votes9y
I wouldn't want to admit that my wife was better than me at anything other than cleaning or laundry either. Lol
- New to Real Estate · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 118 posts · 60 votes9yI can speak for myself in doing business in general. As a black male in the business world i am sometimes treated differently. I don't let it discourage me because all aren't the same. I've had situations where I bought along a "Caucasian" friend and they approached him before approaching me and didn't even acknowledge me. It seems as if we aren't taken as serious in the business world. I've also had instances where I walk into and establishment and they'll just look and not acknowledge me. Once they do acknowledge me it's more of a rude welcoming. I never let this change my attitude towards anyone I meet. I don't care about race, age, gender, etc. I treat everyone with respect, that's the same way I expect to be treated. I'm not saying we are the only ones discriminated against, I can only speak from personal experiences.
The thing about privilege is that you can benefit from it in some ways and still have a really hard time, like Tracy D.
I have a ton of privilege. I am smart and work hard, but I don't think that all my success is a result of working hard. I'm white and from a relatively well-off family. On the other side of the coin I am already seeing people treat me differently because I am a woman - verbal pats on the head like "What a smart girl you are!" without answering my question, and men explaining really basic things to me that I have already known for a long time. (Just nod, smile, and wait until they're done telling you what an FHA mortgage is and where the light switches are in your own house which you bought on an FHA mortgage.) But then if I was a white guy from a poor background, or a black male, or an Asian woman, or, or, or .... it would be different.
I just nod and smile to the mansplaining because I am so lucky in most ways and it hasn't been a big deal yet. (And then don't call that contractor back.) But for @Derrick Thomas, I'm sure discrimination does play a much bigger part. I hope you can get through it, Derrick.
- DHS/Investor · Bowie, MD · Member since 2015 · 149 posts · 65 votes9y
Rule number 1 life is not fair.
I know that, I understand that, and I would never play the race card when it comes to anything. I do acknowledge racism does exist but I refuse to speak the word every time something negative happens in life and in this real estate business. Can't dwell on the past, my favorite saying "keep it moving, with a smile on your face"
Just my 2cent..
- 9yMindy JensenPro MemberBiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
You're absolutely right, @Derrick Thomas . While I don't face racial discrimination, I sure do face gender discrimination. Frequently. And it sucks.
But my attitude is, if you don't want to do business with me, fine. I'll take it elsewhere. If you do not want to business with me based on your perception of me, thank you for screening yourself out of my life.
But yeah, it doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy to know that someone judges me based on my appearance...
- Whittier , CA · Member since 2013 · 176 posts · 96 votes9y
Racism is real. Racism in lending is real.
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes9y
@Linda S. when I was starting out 13 years ago I had a banker totally dismiss me and my wife. She talked down to us and told us how bad the investment was. She told us we had no experience and basically wasn't interested in lending to us. It was our age and lack of experience that was the problem. We found another bank and did 100% financing (back when banks did that). That was our first deal of many. Ironically we just ran into the same banker when we were getting a HELOC. She doesn't remember us. Our financial position now is substantially stronger, near perfect credit, strong assets, good equity, cash in bank, etc. I didn't even consider for a second that the HELOC would be denied and it wasn't. She jumped at our every request to win our business. Of course we are older and have a track record now. My wife wanted to go somewhere else, but ultimately the bank had the best deal. I don't hold a grudge and it is ultimately just business.
Someone once told me the best revenge is success.
@Derrick Thomas without you going into details it is hard to say for sure why your wife got a better result. There is no question that you will encounter racial bias, gender bias, age bias, etc. There are ways for all of us to improve that, but it takes a generation. You need results now, so focus on what you can change and find ways to use your diversity to your advantage. If you are in business with your wife and she can get better results, leverage that to your advantage. Maybe you are the numbers guy in the background that finds the deals and writes the offers, She can deliver your offers and negotiate.
Keep in mind just because someone says they don't see discrimination, doesn't mean they are not a victim of it. Some people just choose to ignore a roadblock like discrimination. They find a way around it and it doesn't hold them back. I am not saying it is easy or right.
- Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes9y
Originally posted by @Linda S.:
Unless it was the exact same lender, deal, financing, etc, I don't think you should play the discrimination factor. Private companies can decide who they want to lend to, it's their money, and their decision.
I've seen data from past employers that self-audited and did blind tests, showing that mortgage lenders (& not just white ones) are more likely to give "Treyvon" a single option, and give "Jake" multiple options, with "Treyvon" and "Jake" describing the exact same scenario, to the exact same mortgage professional, six months apart.
It's real. It's a concern inside the industry. No company doing a self-audit is going to publish the data, obviously.
If anyone out there is the academic type, do statistical pairing tests using HMDA data. Find marginally qualified (high DTI, small down payment) persons with good credit. Look for percent in FHA, versus percent in conventional. T tests and F tests and P values and all that good stuff that I promptly forgot as soon as I graduated from college.
(FHA is easier to close for the LO, but worse financing overall compared to conventional, provided you have good credit. Yes, house hackers, that even applies to you.)
- You know, I was prepared to help you out with a well though out reply but I was pretty turned off by "check your privilege". Maybe you have an unconscious bias that's turning off lenders and/or partners. Best of luck to you.
- Derrick Thomas thanks for raising this issue - it is real and needs to be addressed rather than swept under the rug. I could share a ton of personal examples, but try not to dwell on setbacks...There's always a way to get things done and I've had a ton of favors tossed my way too. That said, certain trends in lending and insurance make my blood boil. The insurance industry in particular gets away with blatant bias. If anyone on here wants to coordinate a "sting" operation to further expose these issues/impact change in these industries, sign me up! Maybe if we all put our heads together we can fix things.
- Investor · Ballwin, MO · Member since 2017 · 8 posts · 5 votes9y
@Derrick Thomas I agree that discrimination (not just racism) does play a role in real estate often. Wish things were different, but sadly this is the world we live in.
@Ericka G. I don't think a "sting" operation would be the best course of action. These big companies have money to throw around for defamation lawsuits and such. Lets just let them fade away. They will have to adapt, a natural business occurrence, or face tough times.
- Upper Marlboro, MD · Member since 2017 · 11 posts · 18 votes9y@Harrison Portwood The response may have been well intended, but comes off as passive. Without going into a history lesson, waiting for these companies to fade away is like waiting for CANCER to just pass through your system! This forum (meaning BP) is a great first step to self empowerment and by that means one or even a group can begin to make changes in "the world we live in". Neutrality on issues only supports the oppressor, never the oppressed. let's all learn more, earn more so we can change more. just a thought.
- Investor · Ballwin, MO · Member since 2017 · 8 posts · 5 votes9y
@Charles A Guilford Your right! I wasn't proposing "neutrality". I was suggesting to take your business elsewhere in this situation. That doesn't support the oppressor, hell they lose a client and money because of it. There are millions of great people out there who share similar ideas and would be more than happy to work with you. Also, just be aware, there will always be an "oppressed" group or a collection of people who feel like the odds are against them. It starts to turn into a very complex discussion that has nothing to do with real estate, so I will stop here. However, I do agree with you that BP is a great platform for self empowerment and connections.
- Real Estate Agent · Souderton, PA · Member since 2016 · 591 posts · 414 votes9yRegarding the whole Tracy D. Privileged thing. I read the whole thread and not once did anyone point out that OP actually made that same assumption she eluded to, that his wife has masters the art of the deal? I mean really. It's the internet, so our words done have a tone. But the way I read her comment , was basically agreeing with what he thought might be the OTHER reason the test worked, and that in fact his wife was good, or at the very least adequate enough at dealing with lenders therefore it wasn't discrimination. I just wondered how no one else caught that. Anyway, as most have said, it exists out there. But for one, have your wife do the talking if it's working. Or 2, don't most conversations start on the phone where skin color would not even be an issue? Maybe you won't like my answer but basically I'm saying yea you might be right. Your being discriminated against. Now what. Work around it. Network harder. Find lenders if your same race. I'm not saying what's happening is right, in fact it's def wrong, but what I am saying is your probably have little chance in changing it, so you might as well focus your energy on how you are going to succeed, rather than dwell on the reasons you are not succeeding. Read Grant Cardones 10x or Be obsessed or Be average. He talks about excuses. It really resonates big time. Not matter what, we all have "excuses" as to why something is happening or not happening but in reality we can control it. The excuses just make us feel better about why we couldn't get it done. We could talk about it all day long, bring light to the situation, have legislation passed, but in the end nothing will change the minds of those folks you might be talking about so all of that won't ever help any one to succeed. Your probably thinking that's easy for me to say right. But I know for a fact their are people of all shapes, sizes,races, gender and sexuality that started with nothing and made it big, and they faced discrimination all along the way but rather than stop and talk about it or ask others if it's happening or thinking of ways of changing others minds, they instead just kept on finding a way to make it happen.
- Rental Property Investor · Knoxville, TN · Member since 2011 · 701 posts · 531 votes9y
Originally posted by @David Weintraub:
Tracy D. Sorry to tell you, but relative to a black person, or someone of color, you are privileged.
For even if all you went through is true, and I have no doubt it is, you can change who you are, and how you are perceived. Now you're a successful person.
But if you're black, you can't change that. And to many, it is negative, defining characteristic.
We're glad you're successful and don't doubt your work, but if you can't see the relative privilege you possess, especially in the south, then you may not understand what ignorance is. And i don't mean ignorance in a way to suggest you're racist. Just to say that you ignore the reality of walking in another's shoes solely because your shoes had no laces or soles.
I'm sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about. Are you black? Because your picture looks like a white man. If you are a white man then you have no true understanding of what it is like to be a black man in this country so your statements are based on what? Have you ever even been to the south?
Had the original poster been white instead then Tracy's original statement wouldn't have been contorted and scrutinized like all of you are doing right now.
Echoing what most people said here, racism and discrimination exist in every country and culture in varying degree. You can't change that but you can change how you react. If you think like a victim and act like victim, you always will be a victim. I'm yellow and Chinese in the tech sector by trade. From very early on, I knew I'd probably never be able to squeeze into some circles in a corporate environment. But that didn't stop me from finding my own niche and be successful (at least I'd like to think that I'm). I can't change the color of my skin, but I can change where I conduct my business. I believe that money knows no color. When I first came to this country with little money, BoA refused to open an account for me, but these days my bank manager knows me by name and have a designated private client banker serve my needs. I don't really care how they think of me in private, but I sure know they treat me much better than some white (or purple) guy with less zeros in his bank account. In today's world you can't demand respect, you have to earn it. It just happens that REI is the one profession that gives you more control over your own destiny than working for someone else in most corporate environments.
- Upper Marlboro, MD · Member since 2017 · 11 posts · 18 votes9y@Harrison Portwood I see where you are coming from. Written forums sometimes lose the context that one might have in a face to face conversation, but I think I understand your post more clearly. thanks. it does get complex. I truly appreciate @Derrick Thomas bringing up the great question. it is truly amazing seeing how this dialogue has garnered such a response. if nothing else I hope that all of us will be that much more aware of the issue when we conduct our business affairs. that would be well worth it.
- Lender · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 549 votes9yChristopher B. Your comment is so ludicrous I can't even believe you wrote it with serious intent. Simply, you're stating a person can't know if something is real unless they themselves had first hand experience. That being a witness to wouldn't suffice? I had a roommate in college ask me if I had horns. I had a man in Charleston, who is in fact in real estate, tell me just 2 weeks ago 'we try and get along with THE blacks....' Don't be ignorant. I've stood on NYC streets and watched taxis not stop for black people but when I walked up they come to a screeching halt. Think before you speak.
- Lender · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 549 votes9yThere's a lot of people making sound points, such as 'it's real but you need to move forward...' I think that is understood and obvious. But for someone to make a claim like 'my life was hard too...racism isn't a factor...I overcame...' it's literally the definition of ignorant. Nothing more to be said. Mutually exclusive statements are a thing.
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