How to grow when rental costs $60k each time

How to grow when rental costs $60k each time

Rental Property Investor · Overland Park, KS · Member since 2015 · 492 posts · 234 votes

I’m in a market where I can buy a fixer for $85k or so but needs anywhere from $35k-$50k in rehab. Basically I’m all in for $60k...

$60k = $450/m cash flow (Mortgage, Taxes, Insurance, PM) 

* I know there’s maintenance costs but leaving it out just for this example. I’d end up around $200/m...

$60k...That’s a lot of cash that I need each time...

This area is desireable and has very little competition so I like that. It also has nice modest appreciation.

I know some may say to BRRRR but the net cash flow is $0/m if I get close to taking my cash out. I'm also a conservative investor. I like leverage but there's a point with me. I also don't want a lot of homes. I don't want to wait until the 30 year loan is up to collect cash flow...

I have 1 rental in this area and it’s done very well. I want to keep buying but the numbers are not as favorable. It’d take me 3 years to save up $60k too.

Does this market make sense anymore for rentals? How do build up cash for down payment/rehab money?

I know when I get to 5 rentals things will snowball, but in the beginning it’s tough to get the ball rolling...

I’m not interested in lower end rentals. It won’t work out in the long run. Too many problems in those areas.

My plan was to buy 3 in this area. Higher rental rates, good area, nice appreciation. After 3, take the funds and purchase strictly cash flow rentals or buy dividend stocks. However $60k is A LOT for me. Any suggestions on how to reach 5 in a more efficient way?

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Rental Property Investor · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
8y
If you want to grow, you have to leverage. The example you provided is not a good investment, in my opinion, if you can't cash flow with a loan attached to it. All you are doing is buying cash flow with the $60k you have in the property, there is no true cash flow. It could he that the area is just not good for cash flowing properties, or you just haven't found the right properties.
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  • South Jersey · Member since 2016 · 78 posts · 35 votes
    8y

    @JD Martin, I agree!

    There’s a little too much being taken in account when you’re basically completing a full reno! Do you sub out the reno completely - maybe there are things you can do to lessen the reno costs. I know that’s not the ideal situation sometimes, but if you’re strapped for cash and want another deal.. this could help!

    Also, yea you have decently high taxes but we’re pretty high over here! I have a property that brings in $1525/mo and my taxes per month are about 350 (this number is after fighting my taxes because they were up to 450/mo).

  • Rental Property Investor · Overland Park, KS · Member since 2015 · 492 posts · 234 votes
    8y

    @JD Martin

    A local investor tends to get $35/sq ft which is where I get the rehab budget. That includes the works, new plumbing, electrical, etc. Let's leave CapEx out of the budget and say I do a cash out Refi ate $145k (1:1) price to rent ratio... 5% interest rate 30 year mortgage.

    Rent = $1,450/m

    Mortgage = $583.79

    Taxes = $300

    Insurance = $50

    Vacancy = $120.83

    Maintenance = $50

    PM = $145

    Lease Fee (1yr) = 41.67

    Net Cash Flow = $158.71/m

    Out of pocket cash = $18k roughly.

    Seems like a lot of risk for little reward.

  • South Jersey · Member since 2016 · 78 posts · 35 votes
    8y

    @William S. do you have a PM or do you act as that? 

  • Rental Property Investor · Overland Park, KS · Member since 2015 · 492 posts · 234 votes
    8y

    In my market (Milwaukee) I have a great team. Realtor, PM, contractors. I’d never self manage! It’s a tough market. Others have better on paper deals, but I’ve learned that the team is what gets you the return. You can have a better numbers market but if the team sucks... I’ve seen people post great brrrr numbers on here, but they’re often not in good areas. It looks good now on paper but in the long run... This market doesn’t have great on paper numbers, but it has a great team, modest appreciation, hardly any rentals in the area.

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    if there are hardly any rentals there.....maybe it'd be worth it to push the rents? Instead of 1400..1500......maybe ask 1650? 

    Of course that only works if there's demand and really not many rentals in the immediate vicinity.

  • Rental Property Investor · Overland Park, KS · Member since 2015 · 492 posts · 234 votes
    8y

    Some do go up that high for more sq ft.

  • Ian WalshBusiness Member
    Lender · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    We have found as long as the 50% rule is in place then when there is a crash, the equity that is stripped out isn't as dangerous.  If we are above that 50% then cash flow gets tight and that can become a problem.

  • South Jersey · Member since 2016 · 78 posts · 35 votes
    8y

    I’m totally with you on having a great team, but I’m just concerned with your situation/predicament! Somewhere in that equation, I think, you have to try to cut costs.. whether that is trying to do some of the rehab yourself or maybe PM your own properties (since I think you said you only have 1 rental). Again, I don’t know your exact situation but that’s what I would try to do. Once you get a few more rentals.. then seek a PM.

    Or.. you’re gonna have to look into out of area rentals or just go the same route as you’ve been taking.. saving up until you have enough cash to buy another property.

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    The top 20% are fluff.....meaning that if you had to sell it would be eaten up by commission and closing costs and other. 

    I only do a major rehab if I have big profit potential. You're paying almost market price and go through the hassle of major rehab ......for what? 

    In my opinion these are not good deals.

  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @William S.:

    @JD Martin

    A local investor tends to get $35/sq ft which is where I get the rehab budget. That includes the works, new plumbing, electrical, etc. Let's leave CapEx out of the budget and say I do a cash out Refi ate $145k (1:1) price to rent ratio... 5% interest rate 30 year mortgage.

    Rent = $1,450/m

    Mortgage = $583.79

    Taxes = $300

    Insurance = $50

    Vacancy = $120.83

    Maintenance = $50

    PM = $145

    Lease Fee (1yr) = 41.67

    Net Cash Flow = $158.71/m

    Out of pocket cash = $18k roughly.

    Seems like a lot of risk for little reward.

     Well, I suppose it depends on your definition of risk and reward. Using your numbers right here, that's almost an 11% return on your cash, leaving aside your principal pay down and tax benefits. 

    Skyline Properties
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  • Webster Groves, MO · Member since 2018 · 24 posts · 12 votes
    8y
    Flip the house and keep going doing flips until you have enough money to pay cash for future rentals. That’s how you are going to grow without debt. I buy two houses, rent one, flip one. With the flipped one, I can afford two more rentals. If you keep doing this, that’s how you acquire more rentals without debt.
  • Rental Property Investor · Overland Park, KS · Member since 2015 · 492 posts · 234 votes
    8y

    @JD Martin

    With the BRRRR strategy is the idea to fix everything upfront and have roughly $10k of reserves per house and scale dramatically? If you have 15 houses cash flowing $150/m, if something major comes up you use the cash flow from 14 houses to take care of it?

    My issue with this scale is it's a lot to handle, and that's 15 major renovation projects I don't want to take on. I'm seeking more of small portfolio (5 SFH rentals give or take).

    If I'm seeking 5 SFH rentals what's the best path forward given the information I've provided?

  • Twana RasoulBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · San Diego, CA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y
    Based on what your saying and what you want in your market. Might not be a terrible idea to just buy the 5 you want highly leveraged with you 10% cash return on each one. Once you have purchased all 5 then start using all positive cashflow from your properties and partially your W-2 income to pay off one home...keep doing the same until you pay off all your homes if that’s what you want. Each market is different. Hard to always use cookie cutter information from other markets in your own. Doesn’t always apply. Good Luck!
  • Rental Property Investor · Overland Park, KS · Member since 2015 · 492 posts · 234 votes
    8y

    @Twana Rasoul

    I was actually thinking to purchase 2-3 with a good spread between mortgages, then BRRRR some to help with the snowball. I could BRRRR a few and hold them for 10 years or so, then sell and payoff the other mortgages. I'd prefer to have 5 SFH with not much debt on each or 3 leveraged, 2 paid off. Trying to strike a nice balance.

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    8y

    "keep doing the same until you pay off all your homes"

    You then liquidate all properties or leverage and invest the money elsewhere for higher returns. Equity in a rental will not produce returns higher than prevailing interest rates and usually less. Real estate is a poor place to park cash if you are looking for maximum returns. Equity will also turn the property into a liability due to all the returns being generated by your own cash. This has the property itself with negative cash flow.

  • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y

    @William S. The traditional buy and hold model or flip model may have too thin of margins to make it worth your time, however, the lease option model (which is in between a flip and a rental) may work better for you.  

    Here are the numbers and how it might work for you.

    Purchase price = $87,500

    Rehab = $42,500 (somewhere in the middle of the projected rehab)

    Closing = $2,000

    Holding Costs (Hard money and utilities, etc.) = 6,000

    All in 138k

    ARV is around 160k

    Get a refi on 75% of 160k if you can find a bank that will do that for you, some only do 75% of what you have into it (138k).

    Rent = $1,550/m (you get the 100 premium because someone is paying more for the ability to get into a house they can call their own but are not qualified by a bank to get a bank loan at this time).

    Mortgage = $775.47 (120k at 4.75% for 5 year adjustable rate amortized over 20 years).

    Taxes = $300

    Insurance = $50

    Net Cash Flow = $424.53

    Option fee is 5k which comes back to you.

    Out of pocket cost = $138k-5k-120k = 13k

    You don't need to budget for Vacancy, Maintenance, or CapEx, or Property Management.

    The reason you don't need to budget for vacancy is because you are not looking for a renter, you are looking for an end buyer and you are selling it on a 5-year lease option. The person is giving you 5k to buy the house in the next 5 years or so they are pretty committed to buying the house.  If they do leave early, you can just get another buyer in there for another 5k.

    You don't need to budget for maintenance because in the lease agreement you state that the tenant is responsible to take care of anything with the property which is why you are discounting the rate from $1650 to $1550 a month and if they want you to take care of the month-to-month fixes then the rent goest to the agreed upon amount of $1650.

    You don't need to budget for CapEx because you have already rehabbed the property and you will be selling it to them within the next 5 years and everything should last at least that long if you have rehabbed it.

    You don't need to budget for property management because once the property is leased out, it is pretty easy to manage because the tenant does most of the managing of the property because they are living in the home they are looking to buy.

    Here is the benefit of this model.  Lets say that the tenant exercises the option to buy the property at the end of the 5 years.  Here is your profit

    Monthly cash flow is 424.53 x 60 months = 25471.80

    The option price is 169k (a 9k premium because of likely appreciation)

    The closing costs are around 2k (they are minimal because no realtors are involved).

    The mortgage after 5 years would be 99,696.13 because of the principle pay down over the 5 years.

    Total profit upon sale is 169k - 2k -99,696.13 = 67,303.87 plus monthly cash flow over 5 years of 25, 471.80.  

    Total profit = 92,775.67 

    Yearly profit = 18,555.13

    ROI = 143% yearly.

    Will it go exactly like this, no.  They may not exercise the option.  Many investors say that they won't.  However, if you work with them and connect then with a credit repair company they are will more likely exercise the option. 

    We started this model with 16 properties that we acquired last year.  14 of the 16 are lease optioned out (1 is still on the market, and the other is still being rehabbed) and they have been working out really well for us.  The management has been really low once the property gets rented out. 

    After posting this, it is likely that people will criticize this model or say it is illegal.  Just so you know, there is a very legal way of doing it.  It is just very important that the docs are done correctly.

  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @William S.:

    @JD Martin

    With the BRRRR strategy is the idea to fix everything upfront and have roughly $10k of reserves per house and scale dramatically? If you have 15 houses cash flowing $150/m, if something major comes up you use the cash flow from 14 houses to take care of it?

    My issue with this scale is it's a lot to handle, and that's 15 major renovation projects I don't want to take on. I'm seeking more of small portfolio (5 SFH rentals give or take).

    If I'm seeking 5 SFH rentals what's the best path forward given the information I've provided?

     My first thought - and this might be against some of the ingrained common knowledge - is that I would have the access to cash reserves first before I leveraged anything. Personally, I feel that healthy cash reserves/access to cash is a starting point, not an afterthought. 

    As for scale, most people do this gradually - so you wouldn't have 14 rehabs going on at the same time. I grew at 2-3 houses per year, although last year I only got one, and one so far this year. But I had a bigger chunk to start with and I bought cash. 

    Question: what is the rationale for 5 SFHs? What are your financial goals here - just a small supplement to your W2 income, replace it, or build your own business?

    Skyline Properties
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  • Rental Property Investor · Overland Park, KS · Member since 2015 · 492 posts · 234 votes
    8y

    @JD Martin

    My initial goal is to produce $1,000/m in net cash flow. This is not to build a huge business. I want some income sources outside of my job. Some rentals, some dividends. I don't want large scale because it's going to be too much for me to take on I think.

  • Lender · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2014 · 119 posts · 62 votes
    8y

    @William S. The reason you don't have much competition for renters is that this is not a good market for investors who want cash flow. You've asked this same question in a few different ways over the last few months and the answer will continue to be the same. I know you don't want to look at cheaper SFR's, but they are where the cash flow is!

  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @William S.:

    @JD Martin

    My initial goal is to produce $1,000/m in net cash flow. This is not to build a huge business. I want some income sources outside of my job. Some rentals, some dividends. I don't want large scale because it's going to be too much for me to take on I think.

     Ok, great. That's a pretty modest, achievable goal. If that were my goal, I would aim for 2-4 paid off homes. To me it sounds like you are just looking for a low return, low aggravation investment, and if you don't want to consider another vehicle that would be easily achievable. 

    Skyline Properties
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  • Jacob CaddickPro Member
    Investor · Casa Grande, AZ · Member since 2017 · 20 posts · 12 votes
    8y
    What if you just buy a duplex or 4 plex with that kind of rehab budget? Then you'd get your goal and be able to realize economics of scale? Why not make an offer that better reflects the rehab budget on the house? It sounds like it's priced too high.
  • San Antonio, TX · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @William S. It just takes a lot of time if you don't want to go the leveraged route. I've been in your shoes and know what it's like. I got out of the single-family home residential market awhile back. Leverage can be a two way sword. I switched my focus to buying mobile homes with cash. And it's been quite profitable. Though like any business, it has its pros and cons. Ups and downs. If you're already familiar with the market, you may want to continue doing what you're doing but know it'll take time. Or you can go the leveraged route. Regarding building up cash for down payment/rehab money, you can always take on a partner or borrow from private lenders. But be careful. Good luck! 

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2008 · 77 posts · 41 votes
    8y

    @Ian Walsh Milwaukee, like Chicago and Cleveland, are one of those cities where the 50% rule doesn't really work out because of the property taxes.  

    @William S. Random thoughts:

    -I've found that in Milwaukee, you need close to a 2x rent to price ratio for meaningful cash flow.  With $122,500 pp + rehab, you're at 1.2%.  You're also double-paying loan closing costs because you're financing on the front end and the again when you cash out.  

    -Can you even get a regular mortgage for the property in its current condition?  If it does need a full rehab, maybe not.  I also wouldn't count on the rate being 5% in 6+ months when you plan on refinancing.  

    -You could explore renting out single rooms to see if you can boost the revenue coming in. 

    -It sounds like you have a good team in place.  If you're confident in them, you should explore non-war zone, lower income neighborhoods where the rent-to-price is higher.  Your property manager should be able to pick winners.  

    I'll agree with everyone else - It doesn't sound like a good investment.  Investing in good neighborhoods is about building equity, not cash flow. If there's no cash flow and it's not a neighborhood/city that's expected to appreciate much, then it's not a good deal.  

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