New to the forum... my 1st (and 2nd) deals

New to the forum... my 1st (and 2nd) deals

Real Estate Investor · Mt. Carmel, TN · Member since 2011 · 13 posts · 2 votes

Hello everyone!! My name is Travis. I've been browsing these forums for a while as well as doing my own reading/research about real estate investing for quite a while. My wife and I have decided to do this as a side venture. Our goal obviously is to make some money, but more specifically we'd like to grow this business to the point that it will replace 50% of our monthly net income. I know this will take a while. We fortunantely have good paying jobs in healthcare and have a fairly large discretionary income. Neither of us want to work until uncle sam says we can retire. I'm 28 and my wife is 27. We have been talking and planning alot over the last few months about our goals and finally decided to take the plunge. Realization of our current tax situation spurred us along a bit. This year it isn't too bad but next year we will get hammered by uncle sam and we need to create some tax shelter. (My wife only worked six months last year as she just finished school so that helped us this year as far as taxes are concerned). In any case, we just got started and are closing two deals on march 11th. I willl outline below:

Deal 1:

2 bedroom, 1 bath SFR bought as a short sale. Fairly small (800 sq ft or so). Purchasing with cash, no financing. Original listing price 34k, Paying $14,750. Should rent for about $450 at minimum. Taxes are low around $150 per year. Realistically should be able to sell for around 50k when rehabbed, but plan to keep as a rental. Estimated fix-up cost around 5k.

Deal 2:

4 bedroom, 1 bath SFR bought as REO. Asking price was 39k and was on market for a couple months then dropped to 29k. Purchasing for 23K. Yearly taxes about $600. Should rent for atleast $700 maybe more. This one will be financed with a 25% down payment, 30 yr mortgage.

We have put both of these deals together in just a couple weeks. Just waiting to close now and get in to do the rehab. Hoping to aquire 1 new property every three months or so and just allow this income from the properties to build up. Should be able to put down a 10k down payment on a property every 3 months or so. Now I just need to figure out whether I should create an LLC, how to keep financing new properties, etc. etc. I should have financed deal #1 as well and saved some cash but the sellers lender wanted a cash deal...

Sorry for the long post... just thought I would post this to see if I could get some pointers and see if everyone thinks I've made a decent deal here as a newbie.

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Will BarnardPro Member
Moderator
Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
15y

This is bo no means tax advice or a substitute for it, but I highly recommend you set up an LLC right away and get these properties transfered into the entity. Make sure you also transfer the in surance policy to represent the "new" owner - your entity.
You should also have a great insurance policy with a liabilty umbrella.

Your deals by the numbers posted are more than excellent, if you keep buying at those num,bers, you will do just fine.

I also suggest you mix in a few flip opportunities to increase your capital reserves for future acquisitions.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Mark UpdegraffBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Rochester, NY · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 711 votes
    15y

    Sounds like you've got your bases covered! Nice job locking in instant equity, and sound like your CF will be excellent!

    Way 2 go!

  • Real Estate Investor · Mt. Carmel, TN · Member since 2011 · 13 posts · 2 votes
    15y

    Thanks!! I ran the numbers over and over thinking I was missing something for sure, but I believe these homes will rent well and cash flow well due to the instant equity.

    Do you mind telling me what CF is?? I'm sure I'll laugh at myself when you tell me, but I just haven't seen that abbreviation :)

  • Real Estate Investor · Mt. Carmel, TN · Member since 2011 · 13 posts · 2 votes
    15y

    Oh... I'm a bit slow sometimes... CF (Cash flow) Wow... I must be an idiot :) Ha!!

  • Real Estate Investor · Weatherford, TX · Member since 2011 · 27 posts · 11 votes
    15y

    Hi Travis-

    Welcome to BP!

    Congrats on looking to take the right steps now so that you can dictate your own future. My thoughts: Make sure and keep a chunk of cash set aside for God knows what. Banks of course will want to see 6mos reserve for all your debt payments, you guys can decide if that is enough or not. As far as the LLC, someone more knowledgeable than I should really chime in. I have one and usually flip properties under it, but my rentals are in my name. I make sure and don't skimp on liability ins on the rentals and I keep a 1MM general liability policy in force. An LLC probably won't protect you personally, but I'll defer to experts. You will probably want to find a prop management co soon and interview a few and ask for references from other investors in the area. As far as a tax shelter, I've had luck the past year decreasing my AGI w/ the rentals- the problem then becomes qualifying w/ a bank after you show that you didn't make as much money...double edged sword.

    Good Luck and let us know how it goes and your success!

  • Real Estate Investor · Mt. Carmel, TN · Member since 2011 · 13 posts · 2 votes
    15y

    Thanks Eric! I am meeting with an attorney soon to discuss the llc and tax issues. We are both healthcare professional that could be subject to malpractice suits so the importance of good legal advice is very high. We are blessed with great "real jobs" and they are high paying but also high stress. My hope is that we can build the real estate portfolio to the point that it will be self sustaining and will eventually not require outside income from our "real jobs" in order to continue to grow. Once we reach that critical mass we should be in great shape...I'm glad I found this forum!!

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    15y

    This is bo no means tax advice or a substitute for it, but I highly recommend you set up an LLC right away and get these properties transfered into the entity. Make sure you also transfer the in surance policy to represent the "new" owner - your entity.
    You should also have a great insurance policy with a liabilty umbrella.

    Your deals by the numbers posted are more than excellent, if you keep buying at those num,bers, you will do just fine.

    I also suggest you mix in a few flip opportunities to increase your capital reserves for future acquisitions.

  • Real Estate Investor · Mt. Carmel, TN · Member since 2011 · 13 posts · 2 votes
    15y

    Thanks Will!!

    We definitely plan to have the LLC up and running and the properties placed in the llc. I have already spoke to my lender on the financed property and there is no problem doing this after the closing.

    We have a meeting with our insurance folks in the works as well to setup the homeowners insurance and discuss umbrella coverage. What are most people paying for a 1 million umbrella policy? Any general idea??

    I forgot to mention that I have considered mixing in some flips to help with generating more capital. Do many of you guys that rent and flip buy homes to flip and then just use them as rentals while marketing them for sale with the tenants on a month to month lease??

    Thanks guys!

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    15y

    T, I am only flipping right now, not adding new rentals but if I were, I would not mix my flips with rentals. If you found a buyer, then your month to month renter caused problems, you could lose the deal.
    You should only rent the unit you intend to flip as a last resort.

  • Real Estate Investor · Weatherford, TX · Member since 2011 · 27 posts · 11 votes
    15y

    Travis-

    I have my liability policy for 1MM for under 200 bucks for the year- well worth it. Definitely don't rent your unit month to month while trying to sell. Like Will said, at last resort rent your flip house.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    15y

    I am doing flips, as such my units are "vacant" so I must use a policy that covers and allows for that fact. Typically, my 3 month cost for hazard insurance + $1M liability runs $450 for my properties at a value of $300k or so.

    For lower priced properties, I am sure the cost is less.

  • Real Estate Investor · Southeast, IA · Member since 2011 · 46 posts · 14 votes
    15y

    Travis,
    I don't have a lot of time for a reply but wanted to pipe in quick, DEFINITELY get an LLC, do everything business related under it. Ask your lawyer about how to maintain a corporate shield. I have 1 million umbrella liability and each property has at least 250000. I use Farm Bureau and have an outstanding agent, prices are very good.
    I also flip and rent, but I do not put renters in flips. My flips all have new kitchen, bath, floor coverings, etc so I do not want a renter in there but I am going to stage my next one with the help of a locally owned furniture store. Also, try to get a construction loan on your flips so you don't have to make a mortgage payment every month.

    Linda

    PS Why are you financing a 23k house for 30 years? Have you looked at how much interest you'll pay on that? I am sure you are planning on paying it off early but still, just curious.

  • Real Estate Investor · Mt. Carmel, TN · Member since 2011 · 13 posts · 2 votes
    15y

    Thanks Eric and Will. I will avoid renting any properties purchased for the intention of flipping. Thanks for the info on the insurance as well. My wife and I are going to partner with my parents in this venture I believe. This will give us more capital and spread the risk. We will be looking at placing another family business which is currently ran by my father into the LLC as well. (pressure-washing business) As of this time the pressure washing business is a sole proprietorship.

    Linda,

    Thanks for your reply. Definitely doing the LLC and certainly understand the importance of adequate insurance. I use farm bureau for my personal residence and overall I am happy with them. Have only had one claim on my personal lresidence. (some roof damage/lost shingles due to wind storm). They were easy to deal with but a bit slow.

    I will have to look into the furniture thing as far as staging. Do the furniture companies give you a reasonable deal to provide this service? The construction loan also makes sense.

    I am financing the house for 30yrs mainly just to increase cash flow. I fully intend to pay it off quickly but like the idea of being able to fall back to a low payment in case in sits vacant for any significant length of time. I came across both of these deals pretty quickly and tied up a good chunk of cash in the 1st property since it is being purchased outright. I think for my next deal I will look for seller financing. I am still unsure how to go about obtaining financing once I reach the max allowable for individual mortgages which I have heard is 4?? If I am showing good cashflow and have the properties in the LLC is it difficult to obtain further mortgages under the LLC? Hope that makes sense :)

  • Real Estate Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 671 votes
    15y

    Each property should have its own LLC. Your management company can be your second LLC. Mine owns my tools, trucks, ect... The management LLC is what I used to bank. You should have two accounts for a basic PM company. One to take in the rents and pay bills and one to hold security deposits (escrow).

    You are going to run out of 30 year money very quickly.

    Are there 4 family buildings in your investment area? To get the most long-term income you will want to buy multi-family residential (under 4 units) for your next three so that you can take advantage of low fixed rates.

  • Real Estate Investor · Mt. Carmel, TN · Member since 2011 · 13 posts · 2 votes
    15y

    I plan to speak with the attorney about using more than one LLC as well. There are some 4 unit bldgs but there arent that many and the ones I have seen for sale are overpriced. We do plan to do some multifamily properties as well though if we can find the right deal. Currently I will have 2 mortgages in my name. My wife has 0. My parents have 0....their home is paid off. So can each individual have up to 4 mortgages?? One of my concerns is that my wife and I will likely look to move into a new home in the next 2 years or so (converting our current home into a rental) so I want to make sure we have good financing available for our personal residence.

  • Real Estate Investor · Weatherford, TX · Member since 2011 · 27 posts · 11 votes
    15y

    @Jeffrey
    Don't want to hijack the thread, but can you elaborate on creating new LLC's per property? Do you Quit Claim the deed to the LLC w/ the note under your personal name, etc? If so, does it cause any problems? Thanks.

  • Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    15y

    Travis, there is a lot of good entity and liability protection discussion above, so I won't rehash.

    However, you've mentioned more than once that you have high household income and want tax shelter. While these low priced homes can give you good cash flow, they don't provide much in the way of depreciation, which needs to become a very close friend of yours. You can take depreciation as an expense which reduces your taxes. This is a paper expense, so it doesn't cost you actual dollars.

    Most of my properties are cheap too, but I have a few expensive ones that really help me on my tax bill.

    If you really want to step this up, look into becoming a "real estate professional" per IRS regulations, and depreciation can become a huge benefit. Of course, you have to have a lot of depreciating real estate, too. but that's what you're after, right?

  • Real Estate Investor · Detroit, MD · Member since 2011 · 17 posts · 1 vote
    15y

    T Willi,
    Thanks for your post! Your situation sounds like a mirror of mine as far as your goals! I also have 2 units (one side of a duplex and a condo) and will close on another in 2 weeks. I am actually purchasing units cash outright in (of all places) Detroit.... I know in real estate Detroit seems like a dirty word, but I'm buying units for $5,000 each. I purchase and stage cheaper, but trendy furniture (IKEA, whole house for $500-the renter gets to keep it and I get to channel my inner interior designer). The place looks cool and rents REALLY QUICK! So far so good. I look to clear at least $400 per unit each time (after all as you know the numbers need to make sense). I have no mortgages (yet) which is nice cuz if they can't/don't pay I don't really need to worry about the bank, just the tax man. I guess the greatest problem I'm experiencing is the equities are just not there. I can purchase for a great price, but the rise in equity will have to come over a period of time.
    I AM looking into getting an aprtment building, but am having a really HARD TIME locating funds (even thru hard money lenders) to purchase properties. Is anyone else experiencing this. I know when the market changed there was alot more regulation and finance hoarding. As a newbie, I'd like to open myself up a bit more to a little success oriented risk, but not overextend. Advice?

  • Full-Time Investor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    15y

    hey man, congrats on the deals...seems you and your wife are well on your way! i personally think one llc per property is a bit too conservative and overkill for me, unless they're larger multifamilies or each has a ton of equity....in your case, neither.....i also wouldn't recommend, flipping houses, having a ton of rentals, and a pressure washing biz all in one llc....if anything happens, everything is on the line in court...there's a happy medium that you should be able to be comfortable with between these 2 extremes..good luck!

  • Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    15y

    Urban, sounds like you are set for cash flow in Detroit. BTW I thought the Super Bowl Chrysler commercial was absolutely brilliant marketing/positioning, even more so for the city of Detroit.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKL254Y_jtc

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    15y

    I agree with BryanA. Separate LLCs for separate activity types (pressure washing in one LLC, rental property in another - or in several as you grow). Not sure whether at your price points you would need to have a separate LLC for each property; maybe for an apartment complex or a more expensive building it is a good idea to have a separate LLC for each property, but for these really cheap houses you should ask your attorney to give an opinion.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    15y

    I do not believe you should have each individual property in a seperate entity. First off, the costs are too much, second, it is an accounting nightmare, and third, you will have a ton of returns for your accountant to complete costing you even more.

    Gurus preach this, mostly because the ones that do are selling entity formation services.

    The only thing you need to ask yourself is how much equity do you want to put at risk.
    If you had 10 properties all with only $10k in equity, you only have a total of $100k in equity at risk and divided over that many properties, would make it less attractive for legal action.

    If you purchase a $1M property, say an apartment complex, then yes, form an entity just for that.

  • Real Estate Investor · Mt. Carmel, TN · Member since 2011 · 13 posts · 2 votes
    15y

    Thanks for all the great info guys!!

    I just learned that property #1 has some title issues. There is about 1k in back taxes and there are multiple judgements against the owner that were not disclosed. Sounds like the judgements are mainly due to credit cards, but he has more in judgements against him than the purchase price of the home. Supposedly the bank is working on taking care of this. I guess this is why folks avoid short sales?? The lady at the title company told me that she didn't understand why the bank didn't just foreclose therefore making the judgements unattachable to the property and then the only thing that would need to be dealt with would have been the back taxes. I don't understand this either since he was apparently WAY behind on his house payments. Very frustrating. Thankfully all I have tied up in this so far is the 1K earnest deposit.....aggghhh

  • Investor · McKinney, TX · Member since 2009 · 405 posts · 160 votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Jon Klaus:
    Travis, there is a lot of good entity and liability protection discussion above, so I won't rehash.

    However, you've mentioned more than once that you have high household income and want tax shelter. While these low priced homes can give you good cash flow, they don't provide much in the way of depreciation, which needs to become a very close friend of yours. You can take depreciation as an expense which reduces your taxes. This is a paper expense, so it doesn't cost you actual dollars.

    Most of my properties are cheap too, but I have a few expensive ones that really help me on my tax bill.

    If you really want to step this up, look into becoming a "real estate professional" per IRS regulations, and depreciation can become a huge benefit. Of course, you have to have a lot of depreciating real estate, too. but that's what you're after, right?

    Depending on how high their household income is, the depreciation aspect may have no current value.

    Unless you are a RE Professional, once AGI reaches 100K (for married filing jointly), the depreciation write-off decreases. Once you hit 150K of AGI, you can no longer use depreciation to offset earned income at all.

    When you have AGI of over 150K (married filing jointly), passive RE losses are carried forward and are re-captured when you sell (reduces your cost basis).

    I'm no accountant, so I may not be 100% correct on this, just understand that high income earners are not able to use the depreciation deduction to offset earned income.

  • Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    15y

    That sounds right, Kevin. It's why you must become a RE pro if you are getting killed on taxes. At least one of the couple. I know that's pretty tough with 2 young professionals. If it doesn't make sense now, perhaps a few years down the line it will. Especially if (ha) taxes go up.

  • Real Estate Investor · Detroit, MD · Member since 2011 · 17 posts · 1 vote
    15y

    Jon K-
    I didn't see the Superbowl Commercial (i've gotta check it out!!), but everyone who knows I'm a Detroit investor sure took time to tell me about it!!! It such a tough market!!! Presently I'm being tempted to buy an 8,000 sf historic all brick and stone Mansion (absolutely beautiful) for $50K!!! Only in DETROIT....

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