I feel like I made a mistake

I feel like I made a mistake

Member since 2021 · 34 posts · 44 votes

Hello everyone, 

I have to say I am freaking out!! I got a new job over an hour away and I have been driving for over a month and I hate it! I have been trying to find a duplex to house hack but there isn't much in the market at the moment. Well yesterday I put an offer on a new duplex that came in the market. The asking price was 215k and I offered 190k to start the negotiations. My real estate agent came back and said someone else had an offer in already. So she said that houses are selling 10% above asking price and that if I truly wanted to get it to not ask them to pay closing cost. Under pressure I put an offer of 215k. Now that I am running the numbers. It just doesn't make sense. I am still waiting for an answer but I am super scared that I get it because I feel like that wasn't smart at all. Taxes were 4300 in 2019, current tenant pays 795. I feel like I can raise that to 900 or 950. I got a 3.25 percent interest with 3% down. Any advise? I feel like I really screwed up my first deal. 

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Rental Property Investor · Manitowoc, WI · Member since 2016 · 178 posts · 186 votes
5y

General rule of thumb when analyzing is that gross rents should be at least 1% of purchase price. Even if you were to get $950 from the current tenant and if we assume $950 for your side at some point in the future, you're at 0.88% when looking at monthly mortgage, property taxes and insurance. This doesn't take into account repairs, general maintenance or capex which would push you lower than 0.88%. 

That being said, this all doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad deal for you; what is your goal with this property? Will you live here permanently? Do you intend to move out and rent your unit in the future? What would you be paying in rent elsewhere if you did not purchase this property, is this purchase reducing your living expenses? Do you see a good amount of appreciation in value in your area? Not a deal I'd do personally, but just because it doesn't fit my goals doesn't mean it won't fit yours.

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  • Property Manager · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 729 posts · 596 votes
    5y

    @Gerardo Hernandez

    So really you need a place closer to work. That is your most pressing issue. If this place works.and.you can afford it, then you should be happy. Maybe this place is not the best rental, but that is not the primary goal. Solve the most pressing issue and rent the other side to offset costs. If the place does not work as an investment, down the road,.sell it and buy something that does. Good luck

  • Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Gerardo Hernandez:

    I didn’t know how the vacancy worked tbh so for future i should be going with 3-5% ?

    I seem to recall that the typical apartment renter stays around 2 years and SFH renters around 4-5 years. How long it will be vacant between renters is the key.

    I don't know what area your place was in, so I can't comment on vacancy rates. Check out Zillow and see how long listings remain. If they are gone in 2 weeks, that's a good sign. If it says 157 days on market, um...

    Many people use 5% as a generic number. You'll need to find your area number by doing the research. In my area, I basically ignore vacancy since it is a super hot market, but if I owned in Northern Minnesota and it was winter time, I'd factor in several months.

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    5y

    @Gerardo Hernandez I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news but @Greg M. was spot on, and you went from emotional over-reacting which actually your agent got you into a good deal despite, too emotional over-reacting running out of it. If you think your going to come awash in 1%+ deals any time soon, I am sorry my friend, all the novice yapping about a impending collapse is just that, novices yapping. 

    Our market driver is replacement costs via supply shortage, those two working on concert = pricing index rising significantly in many if not most markets. How much can you build one of those duplex's for? $350k? Yeah, think on that for a moment, does it make sense there will be a market of half priced properties? 

    Now yes, existing is priced under new, but nowhere near 50%, never been that way in centuries, never will be. 

    Fact is when a person, ANY person, sells a property they want to get the HIGHEST dollar possible, can we all agree on that. Ok, so what dictates what the highest dollar is? See this is the math novices miss constantly. While one will argue other offerings, that's not true, what is their HIGHEST DOLLAR driver? It is NEW CONSTRUCTION, replacement value is THE market price setter, on an economic scale. Don't believe me, just look around, this entire environment of rising prices is possible as new unit pricing was brought up, new units are THE ceiling cap. 

    Generally existing units range 10-20%'ish reduction from new, lot's of variables adjust that number but those are good averages to use. So new unit costs go up $50k, do you really think existing wont go up also? Each lives in a perfect relation to the other. 

    Now bring in our green eyed monster friend called INFLATION, who likes to devour dollars in mass. Throw inflation into the mix and cost of new units go up all the more, as does wide spread tax increases. 

    I get it, people all over hate change, you want things to be as they always were, it's the national anthem of the dinosaurs, and it will earn you the same reception. Fact is housing is more expensive today than it used to be, and that ain't gonna change any time soon, other than it's gonna keep going up until someone waives a magic wand to remove a few million home/residence seeking people from the mix, say 10mill should be a good start, or reduce cost of new units 20%+. 

    Housing collapse, did you not read the above? Exactly how does housing collapse work when there is more NEED for units than units? If I have 2 apples and 235 people want apples, how does the apple market collapse? This isn't complicated folks, you just gotta use your head for more than a neck-weight, stop regurgitating so-and-so on YT or FB or whatever your poison and THINK FOR YOURSELF a touch. 

    Gerardo, you need to chill, like a lot. Get a hobby, make models for a while, learn to not have your emotions drive you so powerfuly because that is a recipe for disaster all over the board. Housing investing will always be there. Fact is you didn't, (and from what I have seen all but none others have either) factor in rent appreciation, property appreciation, time value, value of having actually gotten into the game, value of association, education, building cred., and all the other things that novices don't really know or preach in their online hero-rantings because experience is 10x more valuable than any other thing in REI, fact. So what if it wasn't perfect cash flow, know what you do, WAITE. Yeah, you got time on your side, or improve it, or VRB it, or or or. Fact is sitting sideline is never a tenth as valuable as getting in the game, just get in, go, DO something. F fear, seriously, ya gotta just face it and do it, it will never not be scarry as hell that's why us who do are the 2%, cause 98% are too damn busy talking about it and all the fear, they call us nutz, crazy, risk takers, and later, rich, hero's, visionaries. The difference, time.

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Greg M.:
    Originally posted by @Gerardo Hernandez:

    I didn’t know how the vacancy worked tbh so for future i should be going with 3-5% ?

    I seem to recall that the typical apartment renter stays around 2 years and SFH renters around 4-5 years. How long it will be vacant between renters is the key.

    I don't know what area your place was in, so I can't comment on vacancy rates. Check out Zillow and see how long listings remain. If they are gone in 2 weeks, that's a good sign. If it says 157 days on market, um...

    Many people use 5% as a generic number. You'll need to find your area number by doing the research. In my area, I basically ignore vacancy since it is a super hot market, but if I owned in Northern Minnesota and it was winter time, I'd factor in several months.

    Not the case anymore Greg, used to be but not now. Duluth has exploded, it's nuts to see the size of that area now. Iron Range, similar story. You gotta get way off in the sticks now days to find a dead spot in MN and even then VRB is alive and well. I know a few who specialize in BFE properties (Bum Fu#$ Eqypt, hey there term not mine) and it would blow your mind how low their vacancy rate is, I mean we are talking waaayyyyy out there places and there killing it. It's got so much to do with how you operate things now, it really does, so much bigger a factor than just 7 years ago even. 

  • Ricardo R.Pro Member
    Property Manager · Michigan Ctr, MI · Member since 2016 · 663 posts · 581 votes
    5y

    @Gerardo Hernandez I just saw that you updated the post and withdrew your offer and I’m am with quite a few on here that it would have been a good deal but that of course is strictly going off of the info you provided.

    My ten cents... you got cold feet and you will get cold feet again, it happens to many and even those of us which have done this multiple times. The one thing you MUST remember that will help you next time is to understand that most things CAN BE COURSE CORRECTED... your doubt was around the possibility of you making a mistake but even so EVEN if this was a mistake it is NOT finite; meaning that you can always sell, increase, decrease rents, assign etc. etc. Many forget this and treat it like it’s a ‘forever’ decision with no turning back. At the very worst you would possibly get your $ back less a bit of fees etc....... so next time you have doubts remember this; run your numbers, identify your value adds and your exits and go with it. I hope this helps you on your next one.

  • Member since 2021 · 34 posts · 44 votes
    5y

    @James Hamling @Greg M. - I understand what you guys are saying and I am truly learning. I was going off of what I knew at the moment( not much at all) I still can’t seem to get how it makes sense. I get you get tax breaks and appreciation but is all that really worth it at the end? After further research here is the deal in further detail. Please analyze and help me understand how is it a good deal.

    Price: 214,900

    Closing cost: 3500

    Taxes: $4500

    Home insurance: 1900/year

    Morgage insurance: 1900 (could be more )

    I am doing 3% down

    Interest rate: 3.25

    The house does need some repairs but current rent is 800 could increase it to 900 and maybe 950 if I remodel to compete with similar apartments.

  • Member since 2021 · 5 posts · 22 votes
    5y

    @Gerardo Hernandez

    If the numbers don’t make sense, pull your offer. You can pull it any time before it’s accepted. Have your agent do that ASAP.

  • Rental Property Investor · Member since 2019 · 62 posts · 46 votes
    5y

    @Brad L. Great advice. But with the current market the way it is, is it even possible to find anything decent that would meet 1% rule anymore?

  • Rental Property Investor · Manitowoc, WI · Member since 2016 · 178 posts · 186 votes
    5y

    @Kalanie Tran Yes, I bought 8 properties consisting of 25 total units about 6 months ago, and that package is close to 1.2% with current rents well below market. Will exceed 1.5% once rents are at market. Off-market deals are where it’s at when the mls has low inventory or high-priced properties. Send out letters and make cold calls

  • Contractor · Grand Marais, MN · Member since 2016 · 249 posts · 417 votes
    5y

    @Gerardo Hernandez the difference on the mortgage is probably 100 bucks or so per month. Now factor in the drive you hate. I'm with @James Hamling, I don't see prices dropping anytime soon. A realtor friend of mine bought his first house for 26k in the late 80s. He was panicking, but bought it. He sold it 10 years later. It is probably in the 240s now. He could have paid 75k, and would still be up 300 plus percent. If you were buying it strictly as an investment, probably not. But as a place to live, closer to work???You likely won't find anything cheaper

  • Contractor · Grand Marais, MN · Member since 2016 · 249 posts · 417 votes
    5y

    @Gerardo Hernandez I wanted to add to my last post. My point of the increase in my agents house was not that you can guarantee any kind of appreciation. However, add in increased money supply, inflation, locking in 30 year money at such a low rate, increased labor costs, lack of skilled trades, not enough units being built...it is very hard for me to think prices can drop much

  • Member since 2021 · 34 posts · 44 votes
    5y

    @Matt Groth Yeah if it was just the morgage but you have to add taxes, home insurance, mortgage insurance and any work on the property. That Equals to over 1600 a month. Plus let’s say you save 200 a month for vacancy and fixes you break even. Even once I move out it will be about the same thing. The only gains I see is paying down part of my mortgage. I feel like there is so much room for error that’s why I don’t see what everyone is talking about. Yea my time is important but I have to get into deals that make sense and maybe this one did. I just need to understand how so I don’t make the same mistake again

  • Contractor · Grand Marais, MN · Member since 2016 · 249 posts · 417 votes
    5y

    I get it. The time for deals was anytime before now. Prices are high, compared to the past. If you are truly looking for a great deal, it likely won't be on the MLS. Start door knocking, odd houses, places that need rezoning, etc. I didn't see the house you offered on, it may have been the right move, but over time rents tend to rise, your mortgage stays the same. What if instead on renting a side for 900, you rented by the room? Took on a roommate on your side? I get not all options are available to everyone, but be creative. Good luck

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Brad L.:

    @Kalanie Tran Yes, I bought 8 properties consisting of 25 total units about 6 months ago, and that package is close to 1.2% with current rents well below market. Will exceed 1.5% once rents are at market. Off-market deals are where it’s at when the mls has low inventory or high-priced properties. Send out letters and make cold calls

    Congratulations Brad, I agree 1,000% with you BUT, but but but..... The simple fact is not everyone can get direct deals, nor learn how to, nor learn how to sell and close them, actually few can, that's the cold hard reality of it. So for those who can, I applaud you, but remember not everyone can and we know the truth that most won't.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Manitowoc, WI · Member since 2016 · 178 posts · 186 votes
    5y

    @James Hamling She asked me if it was possible, I provided personal experience to show that it is. That’s all my post was.

  • Rental Property Investor · Mesa, AZ · Member since 2019 · 138 posts · 144 votes
    5y

    @Gerardo Hernandez

    The mistake was not taking it. That is an above average deal in this market. Once you pay down mortgage insurance and after a few years of rent rate increases and you are golden.

  • Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Gerardo Hernandez:

    @James Hamling @Greg M. - I understand what you guys are saying and I am truly learning. I was going off of what I knew at the moment( not much at all) I still can’t seem to get how it makes sense. I get you get tax breaks and appreciation but is all that really worth it at the end? After further research here is the deal in further detail. Please analyze and help me understand how is it a good deal.

    Price: 214,900

    Closing cost: 3500

    Taxes: $4500

    Home insurance: 1900/year

    Morgage insurance: 1900 (could be more )

    I am doing 3% down

    Interest rate: 3.25

    The house does need some repairs but current rent is 800 could increase it to 900 and maybe 950 if I remodel to compete with similar apartments.

     Gerardo, everything you presented here, it dosn't say if it is a good, bad or middle of the road deal. I get it, your doing what the book or guru or whatever you read says, I get that, but that does not apply today, it doesn't. There is so many other factors, some that are far more important than these your listing interestingly enough. Your with tunnel vision on these few numbers which honestly, that analysis style WILL loose you money, because your going to get into a descending market, or a maintenance time-bomb, a tenant class you can't manage and the following tenant nightmares. 

    Look, the entire source of the profit in REI is TIME, without time factoring you got nothing, and your missing that whole point. What would your perfect buy price be, $30k less? Do you know what the equals per month? So a few hundred bucks a month is what this is over, thats a sign you are not cut out for REI in and of itself. An investor would see how he can make that happen, such as short term rental units, or updates, maybe just better managing it, there is several ways, but you have those blinders on focusing on 1 singular thing and that my friend, is why 5 years from now you will still be driving 2 1/2hrs a day, on here talking about finding a deal, with nothing. And in that time, you spent $45k more in fuel than if you had moved.......

    If you can't see the full picture, I'm sorry it just can't be taught. 

  • Member since 2018 · 5 posts · 1 vote
    5y

    @Gerardo Hernandez

    The goal is to not have a commute to work you hate and if you can save some money on housing it is a plus. If you move in a few years and rent both sides it will be a base hit not a home run.

  • New to Real Estate · Redwood City · Member since 2017 · 8 posts · 7 votes
    5y

    Any way you can plan to stay at the property as a house hack longer than the 18 months I think you mentioned? Itll give you more time for rents to come up and possible appreciation to happen before you move out. 

    And as someone else mentioned after 2 years you could take advantage of the tax savings if you think its better to sell at that time. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 846 votes
    5y

    @Gerardo Hernandez

    What is market rent for a reasonably updated apartment about the size in your area.

  • Specialist · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2018 · 291 posts · 231 votes
    5y

    @Gerardo Hernandez I don’t know all the fact so maybe there is something I’m missing but I think that’s a great deal for you. Unless you buy something better in a short period of time which I don’t see the signs that you will I think you will regret not getting this place. A 200K asset that saves you a ton of money and time is hardly what I would call weighing you down. If there are better deals then get one but don’t just not get one or you will regret it later. Don’t let fear run your life.

  • Rental Property Investor · Largo, FL · Member since 2021 · 48 posts · 38 votes
    5y

    @Gerardo Hernandez I didn’t tell you to do this... but swipe the photos and post a listing on Facebook marketplace at the rent amounts that would mathematically make sense. If you don’t get any responses, fall out during inspections, if you get flooded, go in higher.

  • Rental Property Investor · Chattanooga, TN · Member since 2020 · 30 posts · 18 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Gerardo Hernandez:

    @Bruce C. @Shiloh Lundahl @Clint Galliano and Everyone else. I am aware of the cost of the driving and the toll its taking on me. I just don't want to rent from someone else anymore but I also don't want to get into a deal that might weight me down and that I might have to stay in for a long time for it to make sense. I want to start something so eventually I can have a decent passive income to be able to quit my job. Paying 215k plus closing cost was a horrible deal for my goals. I Will learn from those mistakes and be ready for the next deal that comes my way. I appreciate all of your inputs and I promise you guys I am learning and putting in the time to educate myself. I use those 2.5 hours to listen to books and podcast. 

    I don't know the market or conditions per say, but waiving them to pay your closing costs is normal at least lately. Unless you have a dead market which sounds like you don't. The best way I found is to make an offer immediately and be the first or one of the first with a clean offer. Doesn't have to be overpriced per say, or be the last strong offer. Your realtor should know how to write an offer to get accepted. If you can cash flow $100 per door after you leave the househack it's a great start. Not perfect or great but it gets the ball rolling. I would make sure to have reserves left over and be comfortable with the mortgage payment if you had to pay it in full by yourself. Don't feel pressured but I would get a great idea of what to offer. Maybe do your own comps of the areas you want to invest in. Then see what the potential househacks sell for in that area. Can't grow if you never get started! Not saying you should've done that deal, but it's best to be proactive and persistent!

  • Contractor · Grand Marais, MN · Member since 2016 · 249 posts · 417 votes
    5y

    @James Hamling Imagine this...you buy a house for 200k, 20 percent down, so 40k. Now, instead of cashflowing 200 per month, it is 0. Over 30 consecutive years. Now the market is cut in half. Your 200k house is worth 100k. 30 years have passed....how did you do? Up 150 percent. That is if basically Armageddon happened. Time in the market is key

  • Lender · All, Nationwide · Member since 2015 · 144 posts · 46 votes
    5y

    @Gerardo Hernandez

    What is your earnest money deposit? I believe you can retract your offer but you may lose your EMD, may be better than losing a lot of $ in the long run.

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