Is my lender wrong or am I wrong?

Is my lender wrong or am I wrong?

Shiloh LundahlPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

Here's the background:

I've been investing in real estate for 16 years. I have gotten hundreds of loans from several sources over that time frame. When I get loans, the loan officers will usually go over the loan terms with me including interest rate, time frames, if anything adjusts during the loan, late fees, prepayment penalties, and default rates. Basically anything that is important for me to know about the loan.

Now I normally pay my mortgage payments on time or at lease close to on time (sometimes systematic issues may come up at the beginning of a loan where some thing's get over looked and then missed but then they get corrected right away). I have paid late fees on loan payments before which I don't like but I can understand when it is my fault. 

Now for the current situation:

I have worked with a nationwide lender for the past 5 years and this lender has given me probably 30 DSCR loans and at an average of $5,000 profit to their company per loan they generate, I have personally paid $150,000 or more to their company in fees (this doesn't include the fees my real estate coaching clients have paid them over the years).

I have a few different LLCs that hold properties. One LLC only has 3 single family homes in it. Unfortunately I had 2 vacancies and repairs come up unexpectedly near the same time. This LLC did not have very high reserves in the account. So I had the reserves go to the repairs instead of paying the mortgage on time. This was a conscious decision. I know I was going to get some tenant buyers into the home that would each give me $4,000 for an option fee plus the rent and that would get enough reserves in the account for me to get caught back up on the payments and have some money left in the account.

After I got the properties filled and I called to see what the late fees were and to find the total amount on the 2 loans, I found out that when the loan goes past 30 days late, the default interest rate of $18% kicks in automatically so my payments goes from about $1400 to $2800 and they are retroactive to the interest that accumulates since my last payment. And in order for the default rate to go back I need to pay everything up to day. So what I was expecting to be a $2800 payment plus a some late fees turned out to be around $7000 - $9,000 for one and then around the same for the other one (I don't have the specific numbers in front of me right now). I called the loan officer to figure out what in the world was happening. He said that the 18% was standard practice. I told him this was not standard practice and I called up past banks to confirm this and they stated that their default rates did not kick in until the property goes into forcluse at like 90 days late. This was the first time I had ever gotten into a default rate and that he never verbally told me that it would be 18% on day 31 of being late on a loan. He told me that it was not his responsibility to tell me what the default rate was.

The loan officer transferred me to another person in his bank who called up the servicing company to see if they would take away the default rate. It took them 3 weeks to get back to me and told me that the investor was not interested in doing that. 

Now I know that the default rate is in the loan documents somewhere. But since I have gotten so many loans and they are almost always the same, I have stopped reading loan documents years ago and I count on my relationship with the lenders to afford me some flexibiiity and for the lenders to verbally tell me if there is any term in the docs that I need to be aware of. Again the loan officer told me that the information was in the docs and I should have read them. I asked him to go to the last 5 people he generated loans for and to ask them if they knew what the default rate was and when it kicked in. I wanted to see if this was more of a "me" problem or if this was a "messaging" problem. He said that he wasn't going to do that. 

So, fully understanding that this is my responsibility; after all I am the one that signed the loan document. I told him that he has made a lot of money on me over the years and he stand to make a lot more money on me and and my coaching students and that he should verbally go over any default rates with borrowers so they are well informed. I then told him, in not so many words, that if the investor wouldn't change the default rate back to the normal rate, that I wanted his company to cover the additional interest costs and if they weren't willing to do that then I would stop getting loans through them. 

Now before you commment, I realize my responsibility is to read what I sign and to bring the loans current. I know I could have dug up the loan docs or called and asked him the default rate before I decided to let the loans go past 30 days. Those are not in question, my question for you all is in 3 parts:

1. Do your loan officers go over your default rates with you verbally before you sign for a loan. 

2. From the perspective of a lender, is the relationship, or the amount of deals I bring to the table, let's say around $50,000 in fees personally and another $50,000 to $150,000 for my coaching students, worth the $11,000 that I want his company to pay for to cover the increased interest from the default rate for the 2 loans?

3. If you were in my situation how would you proceed moving forward?

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Don KonipolBusiness Member
Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
2d

Many investors won't EVER let a loan they're responsible for go into default - they'll find the money somewhere and not use the "that particular LLC didn't have the cash " excuse. They'd lend the money needed to the LLC from personal funds, another entity they own, etc. These are people who put their personal credit worthiness above all else.

Many other investors, like President Trump, use default, bankruptcy, remote entities, etc. as a weapon to gain monetarily in certain economic environments and certain situations. Not stating ethics or morals here, just facts about different approaches.

Bottom line is that EVERYONE will do what’s in THEIR OWN best interest. Those who pay everything all the time no matter what believe doing so is in their best interest, either financially, or otherwise. Those who “game” the system believe the same.

However, every action has consequences. In your case different loans have different investors. Seems like you’re asking the loan originator, or servicer to make a decision to “forgive” the default rate when it’s not their decision to make. The note HOLDER (whom they referred to as the “investor” makes that decision. We as note investors don’t move to default interest until we’ve given the borrower numerous chances to resume payments and or bring note current, however some investors take a more strict approach.

Quite frankly Shiloh, if you haven’t read loan docs in years, and as a result you don’t know what’s in them, you need to tighten up your procedures. This “shock” at learning about the default rate isn’t a good look for you vis a vis your students.

Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
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  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    2d
    1. 1. I can't remember. It's been a little while. I believe they did but I've only used a few different lenders.

    2. 2. The lender doesn't care what you did for him/her yesterday, only today, especially if a loan looks like it's going into default. Relationships might make the difference between the bank taking the loans back or not but probably not going to make a difference on paying the penalty. Especially on more than one loan.

    3. 3. I would pay the fees and not let the loan slip into that trigger.

    Skyline Properties
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  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    2d

    Many investors won't EVER let a loan they're responsible for go into default - they'll find the money somewhere and not use the "that particular LLC didn't have the cash " excuse. They'd lend the money needed to the LLC from personal funds, another entity they own, etc. These are people who put their personal credit worthiness above all else.

    Many other investors, like President Trump, use default, bankruptcy, remote entities, etc. as a weapon to gain monetarily in certain economic environments and certain situations. Not stating ethics or morals here, just facts about different approaches.

    Bottom line is that EVERYONE will do what’s in THEIR OWN best interest. Those who pay everything all the time no matter what believe doing so is in their best interest, either financially, or otherwise. Those who “game” the system believe the same.

    However, every action has consequences. In your case different loans have different investors. Seems like you’re asking the loan originator, or servicer to make a decision to “forgive” the default rate when it’s not their decision to make. The note HOLDER (whom they referred to as the “investor” makes that decision. We as note investors don’t move to default interest until we’ve given the borrower numerous chances to resume payments and or bring note current, however some investors take a more strict approach.

    Quite frankly Shiloh, if you haven’t read loan docs in years, and as a result you don’t know what’s in them, you need to tighten up your procedures. This “shock” at learning about the default rate isn’t a good look for you vis a vis your students.

    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
    • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
      OP
      Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
      1d

      @Don Konipol thanks for your response. Let me give a little more context to respond to a few things that you have stated. First off, I understand that if you don't pay by the due date you are in default, because that is the date you are supposed to pay by. However, my past experiences of a late payment (which don't happen often) has only ever resulted in a late fee sometimes. In 16 years of investing in real estate I have never triggered a default rate. And if there is an issue with a loan I've usually only had to call my banker and he or she will just ask someone to wave the penalty. This is of course related to the relationship and the volume of deals that I have done with them. And if there is ever a late fee, then I will just pay the late fee. Applying a default rate at 3x the interest rate on a 30 day late payment has never been the norm on the hundreds of loans they I have gotten over the past 16 years. And talking to 4 other previous lenders of mine, it is not their norm either.

      I am recognizing a big difference between lenders that package and sell off their loans and lenders that keep their loans. It almost appears as though there are note holders that don't want their loans to be in default and there are lenders who do so they they can get their default interest rate. 

      This experience has been negative enough for me that going forward I am going to give my lenders a form to fill out with questions about all of the important terms of the loan before I sign the docs.

      I agree this is something I can tighten up in my businesses.

      As far as the shock from learning about the default interest rate not being a good look for me, if I cared about how it made me look, I wouldn't have posted it. But truthfully, I've made a lot of mistakes in real estate and I still make mistakes in real estate; but usually they aren't the same mistakes. I would say this is one of the reasons I am a good coach to my students. Because now moving forward, my students will know to ask about default rates within their loan agreements so they don't have to pay $11,000 to learn that mistake on their own. Makeing mistakes, learning from them, and then sharing the lessons with my students has both saved them lots of money and helped them make lots of money. So I don't feel shame about sharing my mistakes. I think it's more helpful than hurtful.

  • Vaibhav PuranikPro Member
    Member since 2025 · 46 posts · 19 votes
    2d

    Once something is in the contract (late charges), we can't blame the other party for enforcing it. I think relationships don't matter here especially when bigger institutions are involved. The people at the helm keep changing every 6 months and they will do what their rule book says. I would have put my own money to save the situation.

  • Stuart UdisPro Member
    Attorney · Philadelphia · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    2d

    Where you went wrong was overestimating the value of your relationship with what sounds like a national alternative lender. To them, you and your 30 loan originations are just numbers on a spreadsheet. That is not a banking relationship. If you are suggesting they are making $5K per loan with all the compliance and overhead how can you fault them for charging you the default rate when they contractually have the right to do so?

    This is why I am so vocal about developing meaningful relationships with community banks in the markets where you borrow. That does not mean every community bank will work with you in every situation, but you are far more likely to have access to an actual decisionmaker who understands you, your track record, and your properties. They value relationships and work with you on creative terms rather than making sure everything fits into a box. If you demonstrate willingness to maintain depository relationships beyond the typical required operating account, it can be a real game changer.

    • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
      OP
      Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
      1d

      @Stuart Udis thanks for your feedback. it seems like there are definitely some trade-offs with different lenders. I find that the local credit unions and banks don't specialize in real estate loans and they don't like creating 30 year loans at fixed rates at 75% of ARV for real estate properties. so even though local banks might be more flexible to be able to understand situations and make some exceptions, they tend not to have the best products. And then the other lenders that specialize in real estate tend to not keep their notes. So basically they charge to package loans and sell them and then once the loan is sold, they have no continued involvement on that specific loan. so at this point I'm looking for a local bank or credit union that can give me the same rates or better terms than some of the national DSCR lenders.

  • Frankie VozziBusiness Member
    Member since 2025 · 335 posts · 82 votes
    2d

    Shiloh, coming from the lending side, I think two things can be true at the same time.

    Yes, the borrower is ultimately responsible for understanding what they sign. But I also think a default rate jumping to 18% after 30 days is significant enough that I would want a borrower to clearly understand that before closing, especially someone I've worked with repeatedly.

    Where it gets complicated is that the loan officer may not have the authority to waive or reimburse something that's ultimately controlled by the note holder or servicer.

    Personally, before ending a relationship that's produced 30+ loans, I'd try to get everyone on a call and see whether there's any middle ground available. Even if the $11K can't be reversed, I'd want a very clear understanding of what happened and how similar situations would be handled going forward.

    And after an experience like this, I'd probably add default rate and exactly when it kicks in to my checklist for every future loan, regardless of how familiar the documents look.

    • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
      OP
      Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
      1d

      @Frankie Vozzi thanks for your comment. I believe the same thing. I am ultimately responsible for triggering the default rate for not paying on time. 

      But let me go into the psychology of this particular situation. Let's say I am at the grocery store and I pick up a pickle jar and I fumble it in my hands and it falls and breakes. The grocer can come up to me and say, "Sir, you're going to have to buy that. We have a policy here that states 'you break it, you buy it.' It's written in small letters under the handle of each door that comes into the store." So technically I came into the store and by so doing agreed to pay for anything I broke. But because in the past, I've never broken anything, I've never really given much thought to it. And also, I've noticed that there were letters underneath the door handles, but I never paused to actually read them when I went into the store. So yes, I guess I would just have to pay for the pickles. But I'll tell you what I would probably do moving forward, I would go to one of the other 10 grocery stores within 5 miles of my house and avoid coming back to this one. Not because I had to pay five bucks because I broke a jar of pickles, but because of the way I felt in the situation for the mistake I made. Compare that to the same situation occuring, but this time, the grocery comes up to me and asks, "are you okay? Let me grab a broom really quick so no one steps on any glass. I'll get it cleaned up. Mistakes like these happen. We'll get you taken care of." Can you guess how I would feel about that store? They took a $5 mistake I made and they turned it into lifelong customer for only $5. Because now I feel like the people in that grocery store care about me and accept me even if I make mistakes. 

      What this loan officer should have done is stated, "Shiloh, I should have told you about the default rate as we generated the loan for you. I know it was in the documents, but since it was a signifícate default rate that kicks in after only 30 days, I should have mentioned it at some point over the 25-30 loans we have done. I'll tell you what, I can't get the servicer to wave the increased rate fees but what I can do is I can give you a $1000 discount on the loan fees generated for you on your next 11 loans with us." At that point, he would have created a customer for life. And not just on my next 30 loans but on the next 30 loans from my coaching students.  

      The way we handle other peoples mistakes around us says a lot about the type of person we are and the motivations behind our actions. 

  • Lender · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    2d

    1. Do your loan officers go over your default rates with you verbally before you sign for a loan?

    “I have gotten so many loans, and they are almost always the same. I have stopped reading loan documents years ago…”

    Default interest is nothing new, @Shiloh Lundahl , and has been around forever. Since you’ve previously read your loan documents, you knew about this, right? Now you don’t? C’mon.

    By your own writings, you are a sophisticated business-purpose borrower. You’re letting your ego get in the way here.

    We provide a top-level sheet explaining our terms. We also send our entire loan package to the borrower for review as soon as it's created. This package contains more than 100 pages. Many provisions protect us. Some protect the borrower. It would be impractical to review every term with you verbally.

    2. From the perspective of a lender, is the relationship, or the amount of deals I bring to the table…?

    What relationship? You’re at least twice removed from the actual decision-maker.

    I can’t tell from your post whether you’re using a broker or dealing with an internal company representative. Either way, that person has no decision-making authority over the loan. Zero.

    The lender created the loan. It appears that the loan was then sold or securitized to the loan holder; likely a hedge fund or insurance company. They have the final say. There is probably a loan servicer somewhere in the middle as well.

    In addition to points and interest, lenders can make substantial returns from servicing fees, late fees, and default interest. Nice guy as I’m sure you are, no one cares about you.

    By using one of the giant mega-lenders, you knowingly or unknowingly traded consistency and reliability for the flexibility that comes from having a real relationship with a smaller direct or balance-sheet lender.

    3. If you were in my situation, how would you proceed moving forward?

    There is no “situation” here. You made the decision to intentionally miss a payment, and now you want the broker or lender to pay your penalty?

    Seriously? This is just hubris, Shiloh. Check your ego, pay your bills, and move on.

    If you’ve otherwise been happy with this lender, then stick around.

    • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
      OP
      Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
      1d

      @Jeff S. I'm not sure if your a lender or if there is another reason you are taking this post more personal than it was meant. 

      I'm also not sure if you read the part where I stated that I have gotten hundreds of loans, so I'll give more context. Those loans have been with several other lenders. Most lender docs are the same except for the terms that they swap in and out. So once you have read loan docs of various other lenders, lots of borrowers stop reading the fine print. Or ar least I did. So it isn't a far stretch to be surprised at a default rate that jumps to 18% that kicks in after 30 days that no other lender has had in their docs before. 

      I'm not sure if you are new to BiggerPockets or not, but it is a great forum to share ideas, successes, and failures; and to get support and feedback. Stating that someone should "check their ego" or that their actions or thought process is hubris, is neither supportive or helpful feedback. And before you think I am offended or that my feelings are hurt, I can assure you that over the decade that I have been on BiggerPockets and the thousands of posts that I have made have, I have seen people like you come and go without leaving a dent. But I hope you do stick around because the value you can get from experienced investors on this site is invaluable. And over time, I think you'll start to recognize that if you stick around. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2d

    as mentioned your dealing with brokers not the owner of the actual loan and I suspect many loan officers dont read all the terms in all the different notes.

    good thing they dont report to fico other wise your 30 days late would have really cost you more than the money.. One reason I do all my loans on accrual we dont worry about such things. ( I mean its my money and I am making the loan not borrowing.. I only borrow from banks so the thought of missing a payment is just not something that would ever happen unless I just totally ran out of sources of capital from everything I own including home cars savings ira's etc.

    • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
      OP
      Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
      1d

      @Jay Hinrichs thanks for your feedback, without being a DSCR loan I knew that my credit wouldn't be effected with a 30 day late. But I haddnt thought that there could be cross collateralization issues. And I don't think there are, but I am going to make sure just in case. I have a mother bank I worked with that I had the "relationship manager" rotating in and out over a 3 year period to where I had 4 different ones during they period of time. My business partner and I divided up some of our assets and deeded two properties to different entities that we each owned. The new relationship manager sent a letter that I was in default because we deeded the properties that we owned to different LLCs that we each owned separately and that if we didn't deed them back that they were going to call all my loans due they I had with them. So much for a "relationship manager." And all of those loans were being paid on time. When we explained that we were dividing our assets that had been stabilized for years, and we suggested loan assumptions into the new entities they just said no. So we had to deed them back to the shared entity under their threat of calling my other notes due.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    2d

    shilo one other thing you should be aware of with these big lenders.. your loans are all cross collateralized so one default defaults them all. I had one client who found that out the hard way when he had one property that was a dog and stopped paying on .. they put all 20 of his loans into default interest.. and this was a lender you would know off and Peer st bought the notes.

  • Attorney · 10451 Mill Run Cir #755 Owings Mills, MD 21117 · Member since 2024 · 329 posts · 123 votes
    2d
    Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

    Here's the background:

    I've been investing in real estate for 16 years. I have gotten hundreds of loans from several sources over that time frame. When I get loans, the loan officers will usually go over the loan terms with me including interest rate, time frames, if anything adjusts during the loan, late fees, prepayment penalties, and default rates. Basically anything that is important for me to know about the loan.

    Now I normally pay my mortgage payments on time or at lease close to on time (sometimes systematic issues may come up at the beginning of a loan where some thing's get over looked and then missed but then they get corrected right away). I have paid late fees on loan payments before which I don't like but I can understand when it is my fault. 

    Now for the current situation:

    I have worked with a nationwide lender for the past 5 years and this lender has given me probably 30 DSCR loans and at an average of $5,000 profit to their company per loan they generate, I have personally paid $150,000 or more to their company in fees (this doesn't include the fees my real estate coaching clients have paid them over the years).

    I have a few different LLCs that hold properties. One LLC only has 3 single family homes in it. Unfortunately I had 2 vacancies and repairs come up unexpectedly near the same time. This LLC did not have very high reserves in the account. So I had the reserves go to the repairs instead of paying the mortgage on time. This was a conscious decision. I know I was going to get some tenant buyers into the home that would each give me $4,000 for an option fee plus the rent and that would get enough reserves in the account for me to get caught back up on the payments and have some money left in the account.

    After I got the properties filled and I called to see what the late fees were and to find the total amount on the 2 loans, I found out that when the loan goes past 30 days late, the default interest rate of $18% kicks in automatically so my payments goes from about $1400 to $2800 and they are retroactive to the interest that accumulates since my last payment. And in order for the default rate to go back I need to pay everything up to day. So what I was expecting to be a $2800 payment plus a some late fees turned out to be around $7000 - $9,000 for one and then around the same for the other one (I don't have the specific numbers in front of me right now). I called the loan officer to figure out what in the world was happening. He said that the 18% was standard practice. I told him this was not standard practice and I called up past banks to confirm this and they stated that their default rates did not kick in until the property goes into forcluse at like 90 days late. This was the first time I had ever gotten into a default rate and that he never verbally told me that it would be 18% on day 31 of being late on a loan. He told me that it was not his responsibility to tell me what the default rate was.

    The loan officer transferred me to another person in his bank who called up the servicing company to see if they would take away the default rate. It took them 3 weeks to get back to me and told me that the investor was not interested in doing that. 

    Now I know that the default rate is in the loan documents somewhere. But since I have gotten so many loans and they are almost always the same, I have stopped reading loan documents years ago and I count on my relationship with the lenders to afford me some flexibiiity and for the lenders to verbally tell me if there is any term in the docs that I need to be aware of. Again the loan officer told me that the information was in the docs and I should have read them. I asked him to go to the last 5 people he generated loans for and to ask them if they knew what the default rate was and when it kicked in. I wanted to see if this was more of a "me" problem or if this was a "messaging" problem. He said that he wasn't going to do that. 

    So, fully understanding that this is my responsibility; after all I am the one that signed the loan document. I told him that he has made a lot of money on me over the years and he stand to make a lot more money on me and and my coaching students and that he should verbally go over any default rates with borrowers so they are well informed. I then told him, in not so many words, that if the investor wouldn't change the default rate back to the normal rate, that I wanted his company to cover the additional interest costs and if they weren't willing to do that then I would stop getting loans through them. 

    Now before you commment, I realize my responsibility is to read what I sign and to bring the loans current. I know I could have dug up the loan docs or called and asked him the default rate before I decided to let the loans go past 30 days. Those are not in question, my question for you all is in 3 parts:

    1. Do your loan officers go over your default rates with you verbally before you sign for a loan. 

    2. From the perspective of a lender, is the relationship, or the amount of deals I bring to the table, let's say around $50,000 in fees personally and another $50,000 to $150,000 for my coaching students, worth the $11,000 that I want his company to pay for to cover the increased interest from the default rate for the 2 loans?

    3. If you were in my situation how would you proceed moving forward?

    @Shiloh Lundahl, I actually think the biggest takeaway here is bigger than this one late payment. I’ve reviewed plenty of real estate agreements where the term that causes the most trouble is not the interest rate or payment amount. It is something buried in the default section that nobody really thinks about until there is a problem.

    Since you already know you signed the documents, I would not beat yourself up over that part. Going forward, I would have a short checklist for every loan, even with lenders you have used many times. I would always look at the default rate, when it starts, cure periods, cross-default language, personal guarantees, prepayment penalties, and whether one problem can affect other loans. Those are the terms that can change the whole deal very quickly. I like conversations like this because experienced investors can still get surprised by one line in a loan document, and sharing that experience helps everyone tighten up their process.

    • Investor · Get yourself trained before doing something inadvisable. · Member since 2024 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      2d
      Quote from @Diana Khan:
      Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

      Here's the background:

      I've been investing in real estate for 16 years. I have gotten hundreds of loans from several sources over that time frame. When I get loans, the loan officers will usually go over the loan terms with me including interest rate, time frames, if anything adjusts during the loan, late fees, prepayment penalties, and default rates. Basically anything that is important for me to know about the loan.

      Now I normally pay my mortgage payments on time or at lease close to on time (sometimes systematic issues may come up at the beginning of a loan where some thing's get over looked and then missed but then they get corrected right away). I have paid late fees on loan payments before which I don't like but I can understand when it is my fault. 

      Now for the current situation:

      I have worked with a nationwide lender for the past 5 years and this lender has given me probably 30 DSCR loans and at an average of $5,000 profit to their company per loan they generate, I have personally paid $150,000 or more to their company in fees (this doesn't include the fees my real estate coaching clients have paid them over the years).

      I have a few different LLCs that hold properties. One LLC only has 3 single family homes in it. Unfortunately I had 2 vacancies and repairs come up unexpectedly near the same time. This LLC did not have very high reserves in the account. So I had the reserves go to the repairs instead of paying the mortgage on time. This was a conscious decision. I know I was going to get some tenant buyers into the home that would each give me $4,000 for an option fee plus the rent and that would get enough reserves in the account for me to get caught back up on the payments and have some money left in the account.

      After I got the properties filled and I called to see what the late fees were and to find the total amount on the 2 loans, I found out that when the loan goes past 30 days late, the default interest rate of $18% kicks in automatically so my payments goes from about $1400 to $2800 and they are retroactive to the interest that accumulates since my last payment. And in order for the default rate to go back I need to pay everything up to day. So what I was expecting to be a $2800 payment plus a some late fees turned out to be around $7000 - $9,000 for one and then around the same for the other one (I don't have the specific numbers in front of me right now). I called the loan officer to figure out what in the world was happening. He said that the 18% was standard practice. I told him this was not standard practice and I called up past banks to confirm this and they stated that their default rates did not kick in until the property goes into forcluse at like 90 days late. This was the first time I had ever gotten into a default rate and that he never verbally told me that it would be 18% on day 31 of being late on a loan. He told me that it was not his responsibility to tell me what the default rate was.

      The loan officer transferred me to another person in his bank who called up the servicing company to see if they would take away the default rate. It took them 3 weeks to get back to me and told me that the investor was not interested in doing that. 

      Now I know that the default rate is in the loan documents somewhere. But since I have gotten so many loans and they are almost always the same, I have stopped reading loan documents years ago and I count on my relationship with the lenders to afford me some flexibiiity and for the lenders to verbally tell me if there is any term in the docs that I need to be aware of. Again the loan officer told me that the information was in the docs and I should have read them. I asked him to go to the last 5 people he generated loans for and to ask them if they knew what the default rate was and when it kicked in. I wanted to see if this was more of a "me" problem or if this was a "messaging" problem. He said that he wasn't going to do that. 

      So, fully understanding that this is my responsibility; after all I am the one that signed the loan document. I told him that he has made a lot of money on me over the years and he stand to make a lot more money on me and and my coaching students and that he should verbally go over any default rates with borrowers so they are well informed. I then told him, in not so many words, that if the investor wouldn't change the default rate back to the normal rate, that I wanted his company to cover the additional interest costs and if they weren't willing to do that then I would stop getting loans through them. 

      Now before you commment, I realize my responsibility is to read what I sign and to bring the loans current. I know I could have dug up the loan docs or called and asked him the default rate before I decided to let the loans go past 30 days. Those are not in question, my question for you all is in 3 parts:

      1. Do your loan officers go over your default rates with you verbally before you sign for a loan. 

      2. From the perspective of a lender, is the relationship, or the amount of deals I bring to the table, let's say around $50,000 in fees personally and another $50,000 to $150,000 for my coaching students, worth the $11,000 that I want his company to pay for to cover the increased interest from the default rate for the 2 loans?

      3. If you were in my situation how would you proceed moving forward?

      @Shiloh Lundahl, I actually think the biggest takeaway here is bigger than this one late payment. I’ve reviewed plenty of real estate agreements where the term that causes the most trouble is not the interest rate or payment amount. It is something buried in the default section that nobody really thinks about until there is a problem.

      Since you already know you signed the documents, I would not beat yourself up over that part. Going forward, I would have a short checklist for every loan, even with lenders you have used many times. I would always look at the default rate, when it starts, cure periods, cross-default language, personal guarantees, prepayment penalties, and whether one problem can affect other loans. Those are the terms that can change the whole deal very quickly. I like conversations like this because experienced investors can still get surprised by one line in a loan document, and sharing that experience helps everyone tighten up their process.

      Ok I'll bite "It is something buried in the default section that nobody really thinks about" are you referring to the Due on Sale or Waste or somethng totally different?

  • Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    2d

    I haven’t had this issue but I’ve had other issues with big national lenders and the revolving door of their servicing companies. If I could go back in time, I would have gotten all of our loans from our local credit union that I bank with now. I wish I had found them sooner. I highly recommend to all of my buyer clients that they use our local credit union or two other local lenders that I trust, and that they stay far away from the big national lenders, especially the big national internet lenders.

    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1d

      I am with you Steve local commerical banks and a banker I can go to lunch with.. during the GFC when everyone was getting their loans called ( guidance lines for HML's) my banker stuck with me even though the fed was telling them to call my loans.. they lowered the amount of my loans I could access but he left enough so I could continue to make revenue if not I would have been toast. I owe my banker my financial status today NO DOUBT.

  • Real Estate Broker · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 187 posts · 117 votes
    2d

    1. Do your loan officers go over your default rates with you verbally before you sign for a loan? This is a good question, Whether or not the loan officer verbally tells you what the default rate is. It is up to you to know that for yourself what the default rate is. go through your loan docs every single time and highlight the important that you need to know.

    2. From the perspective of a lender, is the relationship, or the amount of deals I bring to the table, let's say around $50,000 in fees personally and another $50,000 to $150,000 for my coaching students, worth the $11,000 that I want his company to pay for to cover the increased interest from the default rate for the 2 loans? From this companies perspective no, it's not worth it to them to forgive the 11K.

    3. If you were in my situation how would you proceed moving forward? Unfortunately Shiloh, this is an expensive lesson learned. I know and you know that you will never let this happen again. Put this lesson on the shelf, move forward and get back to work!

  • Ashish AcharyaBusiness Member
    CPA, CFP®, PFS · FL · Member since 2017 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1d

    Shiloh, I think there are really two separate issues here: what the documents say and how the lender communicated the risk.

    If the note clearly says the default rate jumps to 18% after 30 days and applies retroactively from the prior payment date, then contractually that is the starting point, even if the loan officer never highlighted it verbally. At the same time, I understand why you’re frustrated after doing roughly 30 loans with the same lender and assuming the important economics would be called out the way they had been on prior deals.

    I would not spend too much time debating whether the loan officer “should have” mentioned it. I’d focus on what leverage you have now. You have a long history with the lender, meaningful fee volume, and future referral/business value. I’d escalate the issue to someone with authority to make a relationship decision, not just the servicing desk. I’d frame it less as “you owe me $11K” and more as “this term was never surfaced, I’m a repeat borrower, and I’m asking you to make a goodwill adjustment so the relationship continues.”

    Going forward, I’d also treat default interest, late-fee triggers, prepayment penalties, maturity dates, extension fees, recourse, and cross-default language as a short checklist you personally confirm before every closing, even when the lender is familiar. Those are the terms that can become very expensive very quickly.

    From a tax standpoint, I’d also make sure the higher default interest is tracked correctly by entity/property and not just buried in a generic loan-expense category. Depending on the facts and use of the debt, the interest treatment can differ, so clean tracing matters.

    If it were me, I’d ask for the adjustment once at the senior relationship level, make the request commercially, and then decide based on their response whether the future business still belongs there.

    Feel free to DM me, I’d be happy to send over a few resources that might help with loan-document review, property-level bookkeeping, and keeping financing costs tracked cleanly.

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  • Member since 2025 · 242 posts · 98 votes
    1d

    @Shiloh Lundah Welcome to BP! Lenders never verbally share default rates, and big banks won't cover that $11k. Pay it, drop them, and wishing you incredible success and good luck on all your future real estate deals!

    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1d

      shiloh has been on BP for probably over a decade he is far from a newbie and has a very successful Niche he has carved out.. Just sayin.. But even for those that are experinced and like he said very few borrowers actually read every line of their docs ( except maybe coders and engineers) :) And the reality is in those loan docs there are 50 ways to default ..

  • Drew SygitBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    1d

    This same situation happened hundreds of thousands of times back in 2006-2010 when all the subprime and neg-am ARM loans adjusted and borrowers couldn't afford them.

    They all had "selected amnesia" about the loan docs they signed and went crying to the government about predatory lending practices, wanting the government to forgive their loans.

    How is this situation any different?

    At best, you may be able to negotiate with the lender (NOT the servicer) for a credit on any of your personal future loans with them to offset some of the higher interest costs.
    - If I was them, I would only agree to do this on maybe half of the difference (at most!) as YOU caused the problem, not them.

  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    1d

    This has been a good discussion allowing for a number of different viewpoints.

    @Shiloh Lundahl has explained his position well especially in his responses to some of the posts. While some of us would have handled the original situation differently, and look at the implementation of the default interest differently, you’ve got to respect someone whose been investing for a substantial period of time and with a fairly large amount of transactions to his credit.

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  • Englewood, NJ · Member since 2018 · 461 posts · 81 votes
    1d

    i'm going to give you a different perspective since i buy exclusively at tax deed auctions with cash and don't deal with traditional lenders at all. but the lesson here applies to any business deal.

    the grocery store analogy is actually backwards. a better one - you're buying a pallet of goods from a supplier you've done 30 deals with. you stop reading the invoices because they're always the same. one day there's a new restocking fee buried in the terms that triples your cost if you return anything after 30 days. is the supplier wrong for having it? no. is it a jerk move not to mention it after 30 deals? maybe. but at the end of the day you signed the invoice.

    here's what i've learned from buying properties sight-unseen at auction - you never skip the due diligence just because you've done it before. every single time i'm about to bid, i go through the same checklist i used on my first deal. title search, lien search, property condition assessment, comparable sales. i don't let familiarity make me sloppy. because at auction, one missed detail costs you the whole investment.

    the same principle applies here. loan docs are your due diligence on the money you're borrowing. skipping that step because "i've done this 30 times" is the same as bidding on a property without checking the title because "i've bought 30 properties before." it works great until it doesn't.

    that said, stuart's advice about community banks is spot on. i've found that the smaller local lenders actually do go over terms with you because they want your business long-term, not just this one transaction. the mega lenders treat you like a file number. if you're doing 30+ loans, you should absolutely have enough clout to find a lender who will pick up the phone and explain what's in the docs.

    the $11k lesson is expensive but probably worth it if it keeps you from making a bigger mistake down the road. just don't make the same mistake twice.

  • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    1d

    So this is just a check for everyone who has posted to this tread (@JD Martin,@Don Konipol,@Vaibhav Puranik,@Stuart Udis,@Frankie Vozzi,@Jeff S.,@Jay Hinrichs,@Diana Khan,@Steve K. ,@Tony Savage,@Ashish Acharya,@Kate Sanchez , @Drew Sygit) think back to the last loan mortgage you took out, what was the default rate and when does it kick in? Did you remember it? 

    • Drew SygitBusiness Member
      Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
      1d

      I don't remember it, but if it's a non-GSE mortgage, I'd double-check if I was concerned about falling behind on a payment.

    • JD MartinBusiness Member
      Moderator
      Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
      1d
      Quote from @Shiloh Lundahl:

      So this is just a check for everyone who has posted to this tread (@JD Martin,@Don Konipol,@Vaibhav Puranik,@Stuart Udis,@Frankie Vozzi,@Jeff S.,@Jay Hinrichs,@Diana Khan,@Steve K. ,@Tony Savage,@Ashish Acharya,@Kate Sanchez , @Drew Sygit) think back to the last loan mortgage you took out, what was the default rate and when does it kick in? Did you remember it? 

      I don't remember. I don't know that I would ever find out because I would likely have just used personal money if it came down to it to avoid being late at all. Almost all my commercial loans are through a local credit union where I developed a relationship with the lender, and they keep all loans in house so if there was an issue I could pick up the phone and have someone on it in a few minutes. I found working with bigger national or even regional lenders was a major hassle relatively speaking.

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    • Don KonipolBusiness Member
      Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
      1d

      I’m a bad example to use, because I’m a direct lender. All our loans have default rate interest at max allowed under state law, and so does every other private lender I know. The loans we purchase from banks and other lenders almost always have default interest, not all at the max allowed by state law.

      Having default interest doesn’t mean the lender has to enforce it. Enforcing it after a single missed or late payment is a little harsh perhaps. We would never go to default interest without first informing borrower and giving him a chance to cure.

      For some of the equity positions we own, or syndicate, we do utilize loans from a couple of local banks. And maybe because I’m a lender, I do check to see default rate as well as other terms. Further, before we sign ANY document we have it reviewed by our attorney. I know a lot on investors make deals without legal representation - I do myself in some of the smaller deals I personally transact. However in every deal we act as GP in we utilize legal counsel.

      Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
    • Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
      1d

      I know it's not good, and that it only kicks in if I don't uphold my end of the contract by making timely payments. Thanks for the reminder of that with this post and good luck with it! My advice would be to look into your friendly local credit union or establish a relationship with a local bank for any future loans. This is exactly what I would expect from a big national lender.

    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1d

      myself the only borrowing I have done is for construction loans 90 of them over the last 4 years default rate is 18% . I dont have debt personally on any of my rentals. I simply do not like rental property very much I know I need some for tax purposes but not something I am looking to expand on the opposite for me sell it all :)

  • Erik EstradaBusiness Member
    Lender · Member since 2022 · 6k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1d

    It sucks that you had to go through this situation, and it really highlights why working with a reputable loan officer goes a long way. Just because you know how to package files together and get them approved quickly and cheaply does not necessarily mean you are the best.

    What sets the BEST from the rest of the thousands of loan officers pitching the same thing is OWNING up to their mistakes and accepting responsibility. There have been many instances where I messed up a deal for a great client and I made sure that he did not pay for my mistakes.. and heck the next one, is on the house.

    I agree that it is fully the LOs responsibility to go over each line item with you, especially prepayment penalty triggers, default interest, servicing, etc.. It's why they get paid $5k per deal.. A lot of people take that for granted.

    I personally like to go everything in writing & via email to confirm in writing.

    I don't think you are wrong in requesting this from the lender to cover the default interest, especially since you are a loyal customer and have brought them many deals. I do think the LO should take some accountability. especially if you never received your 1st payment letter, and you notified your LO what you were going through beforehand. IF he turned the blind eye and felt it was the servicer's responsibility to go over the default payment/modification on your own, it really showcases the lack of respect he has for your continued business.

    It is VERY difficult to come by repeat clients that are easy to work with on this side of the business. Once you have them, take care of them.

    I do think you should try to push for them to waive or at least modify your payment. If they turn the blind eye, take it as a learning lesson to work with people that value your business and will go above and beyond for you.

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  • Lender · Las Vegas · Member since 2026 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    1d

    Hey Shiloh, It is a bummer to say the least on this experience, and I am pretty sure that you will not repeat it again. Good for you for trusting the forum to not beat you up as that does take courage to expose this experience in a public way that can at times, and in most cases today, get pretty nasty. As an experienced investor and Mortgage Broker, let's read between the lines. 1) I hope you learned this lesson well and won't repeat it. 2) I hope that you teach others also to take care and read every page of your docs and Escrow Instructions carefully. 3) While you can ask your reps for some help, I doubt they will dig in their pockets. However, if you do go back to them in the future, ask for some sort of break, but don't hold your breath too long. 4) If you wish to explore other options, you should do that too. We all want repeat clients. I for one, would have not allowed you to not read the docs! I read them with all of my clients. Have you ever read the Title report? If not, you should do that too. Yes, it is boring legalese, but you may catch something and at the very least, be more informed. Regards, James

  • G. Brian DavisPro Member
    Investor · Hatboro, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 845 votes
    1d

    I can understand why you’re frustrated. After 30 loans with the same lender, there’s a relationship there and you’d expect important terms like that to be discussed.

    At the same time, loan documents are one of those things we have to take responsibility for understanding. A good relationship with a lender is valuable, but it doesn’t replace knowing the terms you’re agreeing to.

    The big takeaway for me would be making sure this doesn't happen again. Whether it's a DSCR loan, commercial loan, or anything else, I'd have a checklist for every loan; default rates, prepayment penalties, reserves, and anything that could materially change the cost.

    I’d also have a conversation with the lender and see how they handle it. Relationships matter, especially when you’ve done a lot of business together, but I’d still make sure I understand every loan before signing.

  • Investor · Statewide, MO · Member since 2011 · 814 posts · 425 votes
    1d

    @Stuart Udis

    Well said on community banks. They have been a silver bullet for me as long as I can remember. Anyone who can qualify for loans locally is foolish to go the dscr route and their wallets suffer as a result.

    The loan brokers are powerless to waive fees on the loans they sold.

    The investors seek the highest returns possible and I doubt they ever give people a break in circumstances like this.

  • Denise SuppleeBusiness Member
    Realtor · Willow Grove, PA · Member since 2017 · 969 posts · 638 votes
    1d

    I think there are two lessons here. First, the loan documents matter. Even when you've done many loans and things feel familiar, every lender and every loan can have different terms. It's worth knowing the things that could really impact you, especially default rates, prepayment penalties, and anything that changes your payment.

    At the same time, I do think communication matters. When you have a long relationship with a lender and have done a lot of business together, you hope they are pointing out anything unusual or important.

    Moving forward, I would make sure those terms are clear before signing any loan, even with someone you've worked with for years. Relationships are valuable, but they don't replace understanding the agreement you're signing.

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  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    15h

    This really does not surprise me from reading your posts. Basically, gaslighting a lender for doing their job cause of the "relationship".

    Loan officers do not babysit 16-year veterans by reading penalty clauses aloud, nor will a lender eat an $11,000 loss to subsidize your conscious decision to mismanage cash flow. Quit trying to weaponize past business to cover your own negligence, and start reading your contracts before intentionally defaulting.

    Between you and all the other BP folks they pushed--the guy who looks like a thumb, Brandon Turner, etc. & granted you are not at their level--it's really showing how unskilled y'all truly are. Horrible risk management and fixated on scale. BP needs to clean up the trash.

  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    15h

    Also, embarrassing you are coaching folks and don't even read the documents you sign. Now, you have other "clients" that used this lender too and you put them in this exposure.

    From you directly: I told him that he has made a lot of money on me over the years and he stand to make a lot more money on me and and my coaching students and that he should verbally go over any default rates with borrowers so they are well informed.

    Probably should take your own advice. I really hope you never got kickbacks from this lender for referring folks. Shameless to say the least.

  • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    14h

    @V.G Jason Are you doing ok? You seem upset today?

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