Liars, Scumbags, & Satisfied Customers: What to do?

Liars, Scumbags, & Satisfied Customers: What to do?

Joshua D.Pro Member
BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes

I'm turning to you, our members, for advice on how to handle an ongoing problem that we face here.

Here's the problem:
Not a week goes by where someone joins BiggerPockets and answers a question on the forums, and as part of that solution, recommends some company that does a fantastic job of solving some problem that the OP has.

This would be great if these people were actually doing so because the solution/company is what the poster was looking for.

Unfortunately, these people who are claiming to be "satisfied customers" are almost always either: a) the owner of the company b) an employee of the company c) some other shill of the company. In other words, they are liars who are looking to manipulate others in an attempt to drive business.

I just deleted a post from someone who did just this, but when I visited her profile, found out that the company was, in fact hers. This woman is clearly just stupid and makes our job easy, but we bust the sneaky ones too.

With that in mind . . .

Our ongoing policy has been to remove any post that does this and then ban the user from the site. Our terms require that users disclose their relationships when talking about a company, and these people clearly are in violation of this policy.

That said, I'm wondering if instead of making these people and their posts disappear, we should make examples of them?

While by removing them from the site, we reduce the odds that someone here will work with these dishonest people, I wonder if we'd do more good by calling them out so people would see who they are and be aware of them....

I'm not promising that we'll make any changes to our current policy, but I'd be very curious to take the temperature of our users to see what you think is the best way to handle this.

Thanks, Josh

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Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
15y

I honestly think that making an example out of them will be more effective. If you ban them they can always come back with a different screen name. If you call them out it stains their company's reputation and is forever "Scarlet Lettered" on the forums. The only way they can get it removed is to write a personal apology on the forums and own up to what they did.

This seems much more effective than deleting/banning to me.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    15y

    I honestly think that making an example out of them will be more effective. If you ban them they can always come back with a different screen name. If you call them out it stains their company's reputation and is forever "Scarlet Lettered" on the forums. The only way they can get it removed is to write a personal apology on the forums and own up to what they did.

    This seems much more effective than deleting/banning to me.

  • Landlord · Seattle, WA · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    15y

    I think it could be helpful to note the companies that are doing this. I have been running into several businesses lately that are obvious scams, but perhaps not so obvious scams to investors less informed.

    There are lenders, credit repair companies, brokers and others that over time I have learned are far from reliable. Some of which are out right criminal in what they do.

  • Rehabber / Flipper · Simi Valley, CA · Member since 2010 · 597 posts · 259 votes
    15y

    I think it would be more useful to call them out and leave the post, because then if someone searches for them, the post will turn up and their business reputation will be revealed.

  • Mobile Home Investor · Spanaway, WA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 578 votes
    15y

    Perhaps some of the attorneys need to step into this discussion. I have heard the same thing about apartment owners & managers compiling a list of unwanted evicted tenants and have run into some issues with doing this. They need to be stopped - but in the world we live in the criminals have more rights than those working and paying their taxes.

  • Real Estate Investor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2008 · 566 posts · 356 votes
    15y

    I found BP when I googled a RE question. I will also search occasionally on a business. I say give credit where credit is due. Call them out, move the post to the "Shame on You" forum (sounds a tad better than the "Liars and Scumbags forum), where it can then be found by anyone searching for that company AND draw people to BP at the same time! :idea:

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    15y

    Josh, you mean I missed one?

    I'm with Bryan on this, I have a whole box full of scarlet letters!

    You got rid of the politics thread, put in a new forum. The BP Watch List, it could consist of individuals and companies that are questionable. Make your list of qualifying activities, hipe, spamming, too good to be true posts, avoiding details, etc. Would apply to those with less than 200 posts, by then we know them. Move such posts there and leave them up.

    I try to be careful in calling some out, believe it or not, I think there are some sharp ones here who can take care of that when they pop up.

  • Altus, OK · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 690 votes
    15y

    Hey Scammers R Us is a great company. They mades me billions of green stuffs so check them outs k by the way not affiliated with dem guys.

  • Commercial Real Estate Broker · Memphis, TN · Member since 2010 · 151 posts · 82 votes
    15y

    Josh,

    i would favor the bashing method. If i came on here trying to hype Revid and you guys kept deleting threads as you said i could create new user names and keep posting.

    If people posted negative reviews on my company, as the owner it would be a motivating factor to work to help clean-up any problem or satisfy the customer. i certainly would want to remove any negative post about my company.

    i know you dont want to have BP as a "bashing board" but i dont think it would hurt. If anything it would alert those looking for help as to who is not trustworthy and if in fact the company was reputable it may provide a forum to justify any bashing.

    Just my 2 Cents

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    15y

    Maybe BP could somehow change the color of the frame around that type of post as an alert; we typically see a blue border for all posts, but if we made these shill posts RED bordered, then that would make people take notice.

    I agree with Charles that these are usually detectable by those of us who know how to spot them, but to the less experienced, they might not seem as suspicious.

  • Real Estate Investor · Dania Beach, FL · Member since 2010 · 74 posts · 41 votes
    15y

    What about also putting another item in the left column under the # of posts in Capital letters something like U NRELIABLE or UNETHICAL? That might stick out to those reading the particular post/s for that individual.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    15y
    Originally posted by Kenneth Smith:
    What about also putting another item in the left column under the # of posts in Capital letters something like U NRELIABLE or UNETHICAL? That might stick out to those reading the particular post/s for that individual.

    They will usually have a very low or negative Influence score, so that is one way already in place to help identify the suspects.

    But when they are totally new to the site, with just their one post that is praising the company they are affiliated with, then they get banned, well the ban from the site totally removes any traces of that negative influence.

  • Real Estate Agent · Tampa, FL · Member since 2009 · 456 posts · 123 votes
    15y

    Just be careful you don't put yourself in a position where these d bags can accuse you of slandering them or their companies, Josh.

  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    15y

    Yeah...that's the rub. If other people are the ones doing the slamming it would help some too. You can always phrase things as questions when you are really calling them out though. That seems like the safe way to do it.

  • Lexington, KY · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    15y

    Interesting question Josh. I like the idea of actually highlighting the scammers/rule breakers. What I like about it is it takes their own posts to have the opposite effect...let them shoot themselves in the foot!

  • Joshua D.Pro Member
    OP
    BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    15y

    Corey makes a good point. It is all too easy for someone to claim slander.

    The other rub in a situation like this is to out someone by sharing info that is protected by a privacy agreement. It is one thing if someone claims to be a satisfied customer and their profile says that they are the CEO, but something altogether different when you expose them because you found out via other methods.

    It sounds like the bulk of you believe that these people must be exposed somehow. I think it is a question for the legal team . . .

    There are clearly ways of calling them out without making accusations. Simply asking someone if they are associated with a company is a good start. We'll do some digging . . .

    Thanks for all the feedback!

  • Investor · Hampton Bays, NY · Member since 2009 · 907 posts · 258 votes
    15y

    Josh: My suggestion is to leave the post or record the post on a special forum with all the facts we uncovered. When a member needs to perform due diligence they could refer to this forum. Dishonest people often appear to be charming individuals with the the most compelling story. It is a service to all members if we can help them recognize the scams we uncover on and off the site.

  • San Antonio, TX · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    15y

    Wow, sorry to hear about this going on with the site Josh. I think with the internet it's really hard to avoid this type of behavior. Though, it would be good to educate and inform members of those who are dishonest and do not have the best interest of the community in mind. Hope that helps! :D

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    15y

    Josh, you have done well in simply confronting posters if they are affiliated with some company. Being in the internet business you are aware of what's out there, I'm not really, I don't look for it.

    Asking questions is probably the best way to go. I don't think Josh needs to worry about litigation arising from anything others say.

    Slander is a tough claim to make, there are several tests and points that need to be proven, like damages and I'm not concerned about it with anything I say.

    Usually, we have experienced and knowledgable people here that can point out issues. If a new investor sees something and they have a question of concern and they feel like they should not confront a poster, they can always contact Josh, Jon or any of the older members via PM and ask them.

    That special forum thread suggested for these posts does not need to be entitled Scammers, Liars...etc., it could be Question Not Answered. When thses peoplecome here and are asked specific questions, they rarely answer them directly, saying they agree and change the subject. Josh and Jon would need to determine if a question was really a valid question for the topic by a new poster and move it there. Might be too much trouble too.( I'm not talking about the spirited threads we have had among veteran members where questions are used for the basis of some argument).

    There are also many wannabe gurus on internet siets that may use pretty low keyed approaches or under the radar approaches to suggest methods and strategies. I see them, not sure many others do. We have one up now in the first couple pages and I'm not saying anything unless.....

    I don't mind taking one for the team, several have come and gone who were popular with many members and I would comment on some issue that is not taken as a positive or popular response, but at least it makes some think (which I have been told) so that's the point. I may not be tactful at times, but I'll make my opinion known.

    All in all, I think the site is very well policed, by Josh and Jon as well as by the members.

  • Real Estate Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2011 · 34 posts · 3 votes
    15y

    I noticed you are building directories for service providers. If you are considering rating these kinds of things or doing a reputation feedback system, it might be instructive as far as costs, controversy, and PR to look at the ongoing concerns about yelp.com.

    You can google yelp pay to play. Other analyst research organizations, Gartner in the technology space is one I know, has these issues as well.

    Not saying a hall of shame is a good thing or bad thing, but you may want to consider what phase of growth the web site it is in when thinking about how to deal with this.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    15y

    Jimmy,

    We have a DIFFERENT thread for that more serious stuff; see here:
    http://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/92/topics/52328-how-about-this-idea-for-bp-please-give-input-

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    15y

    How many times has this been suggested?

  • Real Estate Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2011 · 34 posts · 3 votes
    15y

    Several years ago, I was researching an offer for some mineral rights, calling land people in Texas and giving them the name of the prospective buyer. First thing from most of them, "I haven't heard anything dishonest about them."

    I was stricken by how they presupposed the idea of a scam.

  • Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    15y

    Nice...I have heard of stories like that Jimmy. One of my mentors told me of a story about wanting to trade $10M of property for a bunch of cash at the title company THE NEXT DAY. No contracts...nadda.

    Now that's Texas for ya!

  • Real Estate Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2011 · 34 posts · 3 votes
    15y

    Yeah, I was just looking to get an idea of the valuation since the offer seemed a little rich. But that the experienced people's first reaction was "possible scam" was pretty telling. Every state has its share of real estate operators of course.

    The final on the mineral rights offer was some buyers shotgun out preliminary offers to see whether they have a taker, then do the diligence to see whether they are actually buying something of any value before closing the deal.

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