Is BP just for guys?
Rental Property Investor · Portland, OR · Member since 2015 · 338 posts · 332 votes
Is BP just for guys?
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Scott TrenchPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 6k+ votesHi everyone. I think you are right that this is a great example of unintentional bias. I'm always looking to improve and was certainly not intentionally trying to exclude women, but it's stuff like this that needs to be called out. I am sorry and apologize for my exclusionary word choice.
Some people say it's not a big deal - that's on them. It is a big deal to unintentionally offend someone, especially, as you note, when I am in a relative position of power. I hope that folks who did read the post will not immediately think of me as someone who is intentionally trying to exclude anyone, and I am actually quite upset that my carelessness did! I hope instead that you'll think of me as someone who needed to be called out in order to learn. I hope that you'll read some future posts and watch immediate improvement take place.
I've updated the post to remove that word, and apologize for not replying to your comment. I often won't follow up on the comments on a post after a few days, and I suppose I just missed this one. Again, I'm sorry.
Good call out @Account Closed
56 Replies
- Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes8y
- Rental Property Investor · Northern, CA · Member since 2012 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes8y
No, BP isn’t just for guys. There’s plenty of women on BP (users and employees). And it’s pretty obvious from that article that Scott wasn’t intentionally excluding women by his use of the word “guys”. Frankly, you had to dig pretty deep to pull that out of that article and you’re being a little over-sensitive in my opinion by even suggesting that was his intent.
That word is commonly used in non-gender specific ways (by both men AND women I might add). For example, when I ask my kids (boys & girls) “What do you guys want for dinner?” Am I favoring the boys by asking that question? Of course not and it’d be ridiculous to suggest otherwise. And I hear women all the time referring to mixed groups of people as “guys”, and sometimes even to refer to their own group of all females friends.
Bottom line, BP isn’t just for guys. Welcome to the club.
- Scranton, PA · Member since 2017 · 45 posts · 31 votes8yI read the article and I thought your comment was very fair and well said. It's true that sometimes it feels like a boys club here. You don't know how many times I've searched through the podcasts looking for a female guest to gain a different perspective and a little extra inspiration. There are very very few. I do understand that real estate investing may be a male dominated field, but I've heard many more women guests on other real estate podcasts. I agree that people need to be aware of gender biased language. It's really not difficult to change one word in a sentence to be more inclusive. It's already difficult enough being a woman in a male dominated field such as real estate investing. I feel like I have to try harder, go the extra mile to prove myself, utilize more assertive skills, and fight harder to be respected, etc. Thank you for commenting on the article and don't ever stop sharing your opinion, no matter who tries to "put you in your place".
- Real Estate Agent · Princeton, NJ · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8yDani Z. Johnna F. - Check out the InvestHer community by Elizabeth Faircloth and Andresa for a weekly dose of investment delight from female investors. Also Scott Trench isn’t CEO - He’s just a VP. BP is a lean company with not a lot of employees. Josh Dorkin is their excellent CEO. Almost everyone I work with as a real estate investor is a guy. Almost exclusively guy contractors / on site laborers despite offering the jobs up to anyone who will respond. The gender stereotypes hold true a bit - I can easily find women to help me design the house or stage it or clean it, but none to help me fix it up or even paint it. I’m going to make sure I teach my baby daughter how to use a drill / electric screwdriver. My life was transformed when I figured out I could fix things around the house quickly and easily with YouTube tutorials. I snaked my tub with an electric auger and found a huge wad of hair clogging the drain. I repaired both my washer (filter) and dryer (temp sensor) and they lasted 5+ years after my repair. I learned how to change light fixtures in minutes. I laid vinyl plank flooring. Next things I want to learn how to do are tile properly, change a faucet and change an electric receptacle.
- 8yMindy JensenPro MemberBiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
@Account Closed , You're half right. Scott is President of BiggerPockets, but Josh is still our Excellent CEO. I think he'd like that title even more than CEO.
- 8yScott TrenchPro MemberRental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 6k+ votes
Hi everyone. I think you are right that this is a great example of unintentional bias. I'm always looking to improve and was certainly not intentionally trying to exclude women, but it's stuff like this that needs to be called out. I am sorry and apologize for my exclusionary word choice.
Some people say it's not a big deal - that's on them. It is a big deal to unintentionally offend someone, especially, as you note, when I am in a relative position of power. I hope that folks who did read the post will not immediately think of me as someone who is intentionally trying to exclude anyone, and I am actually quite upset that my carelessness did! I hope instead that you'll think of me as someone who needed to be called out in order to learn. I hope that you'll read some future posts and watch immediate improvement take place.
I've updated the post to remove that word, and apologize for not replying to your comment. I often won't follow up on the comments on a post after a few days, and I suppose I just missed this one. Again, I'm sorry.
Good call out @Account Closed
- Rental Property Investor · Portland, OR · Member since 2015 · 338 posts · 332 votes8y
Thank you @Scott Trench! This is the type of response I'd expected from you because I know from listening to the podcast that you're a smart guy and critical thinker who's always looking for better ways of doing things.
There is a difference between saying, "hey you guys, let's go see a movie!" and "guys like us on BiggerPockets." I say "you guys" to groups of people who are mixed genders or even to just women (because in English, we don't have a good second person plural pronoun as in other languages, e.g. vous, ihr, ustedes, etc. unless you're from the U.S. South, y'all). "Guys like us" isn't a pronoun; it's just a noun--a label--and it excludes half of the population of Earth.
To the men who have publicly disagreed with me about how exclusionary language feels to me/to women, why don't you try substituting "ladies" everywhere people use the word "guys," and maybe you'll start to understand how many women feel.
In any case, for men to respond in any way that's not, "I'm listening; I hear your point; I agree [or] I'm taking it into consideration" only serves to prove my point even further. That is--we're socialized to subordinate women and girls, to not take women and girls seriously, to deny women and girl's realities, and to ignore women and girls [unless they have a specific utility to us]. Even women are socialized to do this.
It's time that other men wake up, take a cue from Scott, and start listening--if not because it's the Right thing to do, then because women are now the majority of undergraduate and graduate students and will soon--no joke--rule the world.
- Real Estate Consultant · Colorado Springs, CO · Member since 2017 · 354 posts · 386 votes8y
@Account Closed meant anything with his post. It's just a natural way of writing and a linguistic habit that shows up for a lot of people, no offense intended.
I think BP is extremely male-oriented, but it reflects the industry as a whole. I run a women's investing group in Denver and also write a lot of articles on this subject, and women primarily have not been investors. Overcoming this takes time and pro-active effort, and we're hoping to see more of it on this site and others.
All that said, thank you for calling attention to this issue.
- Rental Property Investor · Portland, OR · Member since 2015 · 338 posts · 332 votes8y
Originally posted by @Erin Spradlin:
@Account Closed I don't think @Scott Trench meant anything with his post. It's just a natural way of writing and a linguistic habit that shows up for a lot of people, no offense intended.
Erin, did you read the original article? Did you read my last post here? There's a difference between using "guys" as a second person plural pronoun and using it as a label, e.g. "the guys in this room are dumb."
It used to be "a natural way of writing" and "a linguistic habit" to refer to indigenous people as "savages" and African Americans as "Negros." What you and some other people here might think of as "natural" because "that's just how people have always said it" could contain bias that could be damaging the culture as a whole and hurting more vulnerable individuals in particular.
If you grow up in a room where everything--the walls, the floor, the furniture, etc.--is red and you never leave that room your whole life, you will have zero concept of "red." The same is true for men, boys, women, and girls who are socialized in a gender-biased culture. Women are almost as guilty of gender-bias as men, as your post illustrates.
If we can't see it, we can't change it. And it's the "little" things like excluding women from our language that cumulatively serve to exclude women from corner offices, political leadership, and the United States Supreme Court, to name some examples.
"The unexamined life is not worth living." ~ Socrates
- 8yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Brent Coombs:
me too I try to use FOLKS instead of Guys.. but yes Guys is commonly referring to all. but can see how some would be sensitive to it.
its better than saying Guys and Dolls :)
- 8yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Erin Spradlin:
@Account Closed I don't think @Scott Trench meant anything with his post. It's just a natural way of writing and a linguistic habit that shows up for a lot of people, no offense intended.
I think BP is extremely male-oriented, but it reflects the industry as a whole. I run a women's investing group in Denver and also write a lot of articles on this subject, and women primarily have not been investors. Overcoming this takes time and pro-active effort, and we're hoping to see more of it on this site and others.
All that said, thank you for calling attention to this issue.
not sure about Denver but real estate sales on the west coast is completely female dominated.. far more female agents then male agents. but on the investing side I suspect its male dominated or at least couples dominated.. construction is male dominate of course.
I am trying to think of any turn key companies that are led by women I don't know any... But some of the top turn key resellers are women owned and run companies.. Kathey fehtke comes to mind.. OH I just thought of one turn key company that is women owned and that is MIssy McCall in Cincinnati .. WE all have our positions.. but at the end of the day my Wife sells all our product and is half or more of the thought process of what happens..
- Rental Property Investor · Ankeny, IA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
I have three daughters, and I too am guilty of saying "guys" as a general term. Lately though, I've also begun to examine the way I address people. I feel like I'm a progressive person, but I also realize as a white male, I have not had to think or worry about the many plights that women and minorities have had to deal with daily throughout their lives. To say "you're overreacting", or "it's no big deal", is to minimize what the other person is feeling.
And far too often I hear; "I'm sorry if my language offended you"; or, "if you felt offended by what I said..." That is no way to apologize. That makes it appear the offended person should not have been offended. Scott apologized correctly, and I was glad to see it.
We can all learn to be better people. I know I try to be a better father, significant other, and person on a daily basis.
- Real Estate Consultant · Colorado Springs, CO · Member since 2017 · 354 posts · 386 votes8y
@Account Closed as well.
That said, I do think BP has a major gender issue. I have personally been critical of their lack of female content providers, podcast guests and leadership. I don't think it's been handled well to this point either. That said, this is a watershed moment for the country and we should continue to call these things out and see where we're at in a month, six months, a year.
- Olathe, KS · Member since 2018 · 148 posts · 207 votes8y
Originally posted by @Erin Spradlin:
@Account Closed as well.
That said, I do think BP has a major gender issue. I have personally been critical of their lack of female content providers, podcast guests and leadership. I don't think it's been handled well to this point either. That said, this is a watershed moment for the country and we should continue to call these things out and see where we're at in a month, six months, a year.
To some degree when you're talking about content providers and guests you're limited by the ratio of people actually doing the stuff you're trying to focus on. For example, in one of my electical engineering classes in college there were 60 students and zero women. Most engineering classes were at a ratio of 30 to 1, so if I were to hear reports on the subject I would expect it also to be along the same 30 to 1 ratio.
I don't know what the ratio is in the investing space but I'd guess it's heavily weighted towards men while the realtor space might be heavily slanted towards women. I think on their money podcast the ratio is a lot more even just because saving money is something that everyone is interested in.
I guess what I'm saying is I don't think anyone is intentionally including or not including someone based upon anything other than their knowledge.
- Rental Property Investor · Portland, OR · Member since 2015 · 338 posts · 332 votes8y
Originally posted by @Aaron Taylor:
Originally posted by @Erin Spradlin:
@Account Closed
I can both agree strongly that BP has a boys' club issue that needs to be addressed immediately and also think that he didn't mean any offense by his using "guys."
It's just more interesting to me to say where are the female podcast guests? Where is the female leadership (besides Mindy) then it is to get upset about the "guys" comment. That's really where I want to see the change.
I understand that sexism in linguistics supports sexism in life and that's why it needs to be addressed and called out, but I also know that I have to self-correct all the time on not using "guys" because it's long been a habit, and I trust that's true for @Scott Trench as well.
That said, I do think BP has a major gender issue. I have personally been critical of their lack of female content providers, podcast guests and leadership. I don't think it's been handled well to this point either. That said, this is a watershed moment for the country and we should continue to call these things out and see where we're at in a month, six months, a year.
To some degree when you're talking about content providers and guests you're limited by the ratio of people actually doing the stuff you're trying to focus on. For example, in one of my electical engineering classes in college there were 60 students and zero women. Most engineering classes were at a ratio of 30 to 1, so if I were to hear reports on the subject I would expect it also to be along the same 30 to 1 ratio.
I don't know what the ratio is in the investing space but I'd guess it's heavily weighted towards men while the realtor space might be heavily slanted towards women. I think on their money podcast the ratio is a lot more even just because saving money is something that everyone is interested in.
I guess what I'm saying is I don't think anyone is intentionally including or not including someone based upon anything other than their knowledge.
This is the same excuse that SNL used when they were criticized for not hiring more women of color on the show. "There aren't enough funny black women!" Which of course is completely false. They just didn't look hard enough.
I talked with @Mindy Jensen when she was in Portland about the dearth of women on the BP podcast. She told me that she has a hard time finding them, that she tries, and that the issue is experience. That the women who ask to be on the podcast aren't experienced enough. That the podcast seeks to interview investors with at least 10 doors.
While I appreciate the efforts of Mindy and others at BP to recruit women to the podcast, it's clearly not enough, because there ARE a lot of women real estate investors out there. It's a multi-pronged issue, but one of the problems is very likely because women are trying to keep a million balls in the air, and doing a podcast interview would likely be at the low end of their priority list, compared to feeding the kids, doing laundry for 4 people, walking the dog, working a day job, managing tenants, making decisions about investments, paying bills at home, unloading the dishwasher, getting the kids to school, driving the kids to their after school activities, and on top of that, being expected to look fabulous and take time to put on makeup and do their hair and make daily wardrobe decisions and then on top of that, somehow manage to get some self-care in?
Add to that that women aren't socialized for self-promotion (partly because most of us have bigger fish to fry than fluffing up our egos), so we're not clamoring to get on the mic. If anything, I'm sure many women are perfectly happy behind the scenes, getting sh*t done.
If BP were truly committed to increasing the number of women on the podcast, they will need to give serious consideration to all of this ^ and dig a little deeper to find the superwomen who somehow have time and inclination to do all this ^ and also, a BP interview.
- 8yScott TrenchPro MemberRental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 6k+ votes
Absolutely correct. We need to continue to work on improving diversity to make real estate accessible to everyone. Mindy, Allison, Katie, and several other of our team members are actively working to find and select women who are proving to have excellent charisma, thought leadership, and writing skills to produce more content, and of course we need to promote diversity within our corporate structure, especially in senior leadership. Expect a steadily increasing volume of content output from the excellent and very successful women here on BiggerPockets over the next few months and over the next year.
This is one area that we have been putting the pieces together on for the last several months in particular. Again, expect to see improvement over the next 6-12 months. Call us out if it isn't there.
- Real Estate Investor · Washington, DC · Member since 2014 · 236 posts · 328 votes8y
If I knew of someone that would be a good guest, I would send her a name and you should too. In the meantime, I'll just thank @Mindy Jensen for doing a lot of hard work on the podcast and putting out a lot of content that we can all learn from. Thank you :)
- Rental Property Investor · Portland, OR · Member since 2015 · 338 posts · 332 votes8y
Originally posted by @Scott Trench:
Absolutely correct. We need to continue to work on improving diversity to make real estate accessible to everyone. Mindy, Allison, Katie, and several other of our team members are actively working to find and select women who are proving to have excellent charisma, thought leadership, and writing skills to produce more content, and of course we need to promote diversity within our corporate structure, especially in senior leadership. Expect a steadily increasing volume of content output from the excellent and very successful women here on BiggerPockets over the next few months and over the next year.
This is one area that we have been putting the pieces together on for the last several months in particular. Again, expect to see improvement over the next 6-12 months. Call us out if it isn't there.
One place to start would be insisting that both members of investing couples are on the interview, rather than just the man. (For example you recently had a great interview with Neal Collins—but he’s half a couple with my amazing friend Alissa, who is just as involved with their real estate investing. In fact, I recommended to Mindy last year that Alissa be on the podcast. But then it ended up being just Neal for some reason.)
I often hear from interviewees that their spouses are integral to their business or success. Not only would it be helpful for listeners to learn about what that spouse is doing, in her own words, but it would also paint a more complete picture of the reality of your guests’ real estate success. Not hearing from half of a partnership is a huge deal! It sends the message that the partner’s contribution isn’t important, when we all know that neither individual could have accomplished what they have without the other.
Even if the partner is less involved in the daily real estate minutiae, whatever they are doing is facilitating the real estate investing. No one lives in a vacuum, and it would be encouraging for your single listeners to learn, for example, that the reason one partner can work 12 hours a day on real estate is because the other partner is taking care of all the meals and laundry and bill paying. Some people beat themselves up for not accomplishing as much as quickly as your podcast guests, but knowing the full context in which “they” accomplished what they did paints a more realistic picture.
It’s also way more interesting to hear stories from couples and learn about how they overcame disagreements or what they needed to agree on, and how they navigate their relationship when real estate stuff gets stressful. Because once you’ve heard enough “how I went from 2 to 100 units in 3 years at age 23” stories, they get boring and stop being as helpful.
There are so many partnerships in real estate, and lots of them are with women. Let’s hear the voices of those women!
Once that ball starts rolling, I bet you’d be surprised at how much easier it becomes to notice, find and attract many other women making unique and podcast-worthy contributions to real estate investing. You might have to ask more questions of potential women guests to find out how skilled and smart and experienced and creative they are, because we typically won’t volunteer that type of information unless specifically asked about it. Be curious. Ask questions and take a genuine interest in learning about the women on BP and elsewhere, and you might be surprised at how many amazing stories are already sitting right under your nose.
- Rental Property Investor · Hong Kong, Hong Kong Island · Member since 2014 · 188 posts · 114 votes8y
Wow, did I just read Dani Z shaming someone for being trans or cis-gendered? How does she know? Did she pull his medical file or does she judge him based on her subjective appreciation of probabilities? It seems inappropriate to me, and she should write an apology.
There are many types of successful investors, and Dani Z point that we should aim to publicize the greatest diversity of experience and background is in my opinion very valid and would make the podcast even more useful.
I come here because Biggerpockets has excellent content on real estate put forward by people irrespective of their race or gender.
- Rental Property Investor · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes8y@Dani Z. "To the men who have publicly disagreed with me about how exclusionary language feels to me/to women, why don't you try substituting "ladies" everywhere people use the word "guys," and maybe you'll start to understand how many women feel." Im going to use this! This is a great, real life, example to turn the tables and show men how women feel on a daily basis. This is a great conversation that is long overdue and needs to happen in every aspect of society. Thank you!
- Member since 2018 · 2 posts · 1 vote8y
The terminology of a group inclusive never bothered me so much as being patronized. Try being a lady in a hardware store just grabbing a piece of plumbing. LMBO. My poor husband is my front man so people stop asking me... Your sure you need this... what project are you... have you tried...helpful at a time consuming greatest.
- Rental Property Investor · Boise/Portland · Member since 2017 · 709 posts · 742 votes8y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
A recent BP blog article by Scott Trench had the phrase “. . . guys like us here on BiggerPockets . . . “
I commented about the gendered language, because if people don’t realize they’re doing it, it can never change.
Scott, the author, didn’t reply, but sure enough, a cis white guy did. I got “put in my place” in a paternalistic, mocking way—or at least, that’s what the guy was trying to do, it appeared.
Without any response from Scott, who’s both the author and CEO of BP, but given the apparent ambivalence over exclusionary language, I’m taking Scott at his original word. Maybe he really did mean “guys?” Maybe women weren’t the target audience at all? Is BP just for guys?
Given the treatment of Christine Blasey Ford last week, I wasn’t going to ignore gender-biased language from a leader in the BP community, even if it was inadvertent, and even though it’s hard to speak truth to power.
So I wonder, is BP just for guys? Did I buy a membership in the wrong club?
https://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog/commercial-multifamily-market-trigger-recession/
Although Scott was very gracious in answering you, I felt the way in which you called him out on a public forum was inappropriate. Here's the problem I have regarding the way you chose to address this. You referenced “guys like us” as a gendered expression which obviously caused you a level of angst, yet two sentences later you also used a derogatory expression “cis white guy,” which is a gendered label.
I’m a male, but the fact that a male uses a phrase you don’t agree with doesn’t constitute that that person as in individual represents an entire homogenous group, and your post attributing such is actually, to a degree, discriminatory.
The other people who’ve replied here, including myself, certainly want to be sensitive about not offending anyone, whether by commission or omission. However, truthfully, it appears you’ve used your post as a guised platform to elevate your angst because you’ve implied by your own words that Scott Trench is in a position of “power” that you need to “speak truth to” as you wrote; “I wasn’t going to ignore gender-biased language from a leader in the BP community, even if it was inadvertent, and even though it’s hard to speak truth to power.”
- Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes8y
Politically correct dissuasion obviously having nothing to do with investing. Money being not gender specific I personally do not see gender when talking about investing, real estate etc.
Obviously sometimes I may use the wrong term or word inadvertently when referring to investors, it happens. If someone is offended it is unfortunate I will apologise and move on but I will not make their sensitivity my problem.
Person up.
- Rental Property Investor · Portland, OR · Member since 2015 · 338 posts · 332 votes8y
The responses (and those who "liked" those responses) here have given BP users some useful information about those people, about where we are as a culture, and about how far we still have to go. It will be interesting to see how people react to these comments through the lens of history in 5 years, when people search for "female podcast guests" or "women podcast guests."
Scott understood where I was coming from. He heard me when I said, I realized he didn't use exclusionary language on purpose. He understood why I mentioned it nonetheless, and responded appropriately. Thank you @Scott Trench, @Johnna F., @Anthony Wick, and @Jason D. for actually listening and considering the words of this woman.
I wrote, "In any case, for men to respond in any way that's not, "I'm listening; I hear your point; I agree [or] I'm taking it into consideration" only serves to prove my point even further."
That is--we're socialized to subordinate women and girls:
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to not take women and girls seriously:
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to deny women and girl's realities:
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This post has been removed.
This post has been removed.[I can only guess what these two people said to deny my reality.]
and to ignore women and girls [unless they have a specific utility to us] (examples below of commenters ignoring and/or twisting my original words):
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Even women are socialized to do this.
I don't expect this to make any difference, because as we've seen during the supreme court testimony last week, no amount of expertise or actual knowledge makes any difference when it comes from the mouth of a woman. But... for those who continue to ignore how the word "guys" can be used differently, and why it makes a difference:
"What do you guys want for dinner?"
People, myself included, use this in English all the time because we have no good second person plural pronoun.
"We guys don't understand logic."
This is a gendered sentence that excludes some people (non-guys). It's not, "we don't understand logic," or "we women don't understand logic." This version of "guys" has a specific and different meaning from, "hey you guys!" It's this second version of "guys" that was used in Scott's original article until he changed it to "people" after I mentioned it.
For whatever it's worth (and I'm assuming next to nothing for many of those who have commented here), my undergraduate degree is in philosophy from the University of California, and my minors were French and German. No one here is going to out-logic or out-language me.
But logic and reason clearly don't matter to a lot of folks who are too stuck in the status quo, too mired in their same old ways of thinking--most likely because they personally benefit from the privilege of being in a dominant group--that the more a woman presents logic and reason, the more they will rally against and attack her.
And so it is.
Today is a Saturday. I'm taking my dog to the house I'm renovating so I can install light fixtures, replace circuit breakers, run PEX, and install finish plumbing. This is a house I redesigned from the studs with the help of my Master of Architecture. But what are credentials and credibility but words that just get in the way?
You do you. I'll do me.
- Contractor · Milltown, NJ · Member since 2016 · 297 posts · 213 votes8y@Dani Z. Good day, as a father of two daughters, I hope that one day they will grow up educated in the same fashion as you. You make your points and support them effectively. I do have some questions about your the construction project you are taking your dog to today: 1) Is it in the state of Oregon? 2) Is it your primary residence/or will It become your primary residence upon completion of the work?
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