Is BP just for guys?
Rental Property Investor · Portland, OR · Member since 2015 · 338 posts · 332 votes
Is BP just for guys?
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Scott TrenchPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 6k+ votesHi everyone. I think you are right that this is a great example of unintentional bias. I'm always looking to improve and was certainly not intentionally trying to exclude women, but it's stuff like this that needs to be called out. I am sorry and apologize for my exclusionary word choice.
Some people say it's not a big deal - that's on them. It is a big deal to unintentionally offend someone, especially, as you note, when I am in a relative position of power. I hope that folks who did read the post will not immediately think of me as someone who is intentionally trying to exclude anyone, and I am actually quite upset that my carelessness did! I hope instead that you'll think of me as someone who needed to be called out in order to learn. I hope that you'll read some future posts and watch immediate improvement take place.
I've updated the post to remove that word, and apologize for not replying to your comment. I often won't follow up on the comments on a post after a few days, and I suppose I just missed this one. Again, I'm sorry.
Good call out @Account Closed
56 Replies
- Developer · Rohnert Park, CA · Member since 2018 · 43 posts · 25 votes7y
I respect the opinions of all.
I wish we didn't live in a society in which words can have such unintended consequences as the ones mentioned in this thread.
I sincerely hope that BP does not become a forum to express ourselves politically. I'm certain there are forums of those kind available.
I hope I am not attacked for my honest opinion.
- Real Estate Agent · Arlington · Member since 2016 · 162 posts · 100 votes7y
Dani - clearly you are asserting your cultural superiority from your uber- politically correct moral high ground in Portlandia. Elsewhere in the country (ie, New England and elsewhere along the east coast) 'guys' is perfectly acceptable. For example, if my mom and grandma were in a room with me, it would be no problem for me to say "Hey, you guys want to grab some lunch?" There's no gender-obsessed scrutiny about it. Maybe us guys just don't know proper protocol, or maybe you're just too interested in bossing others to accept your standard of cultural norms.
Maybe you should be less focused on picking apart other people for how they employ one term in language which can be gender ambiguous and more focused with the value you're contributing to other people's lives (like other men and women...'guys' on this blog).
- Rental Property Investor · Boise/Portland · Member since 2017 · 709 posts · 742 votes7y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
The responses (and those who "liked" those responses) here have given BP users some useful information about those people, about where we are as a culture, and about how far we still have to go. It will be interesting to see how people react to these comments through the lens of history in 5 years, when people search for "female podcast guests" or "women podcast guests."
Scott understood where I was coming from. He heard me when I said, I realized he didn't use exclusionary language on purpose. He understood why I mentioned it nonetheless, and responded appropriately. Thank you @Scott Trench, @Johnna F., @Anthony Wick, and @Jason D. for actually listening and considering the words of this woman.
I wrote, "In any case, for men to respond in any way that's not, "I'm listening; I hear your point; I agree [or] I'm taking it into consideration" only serves to prove my point even further."
That is--we're socialized to subordinate women and girls:
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to not take women and girls seriously:
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to deny women and girl's realities:
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This post has been removed.
This post has been removed.[I can only guess what these two people said to deny my reality.]
and to ignore women and girls [unless they have a specific utility to us] (examples below of commenters ignoring and/or twisting my original words):
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Even women are socialized to do this.
I don't expect this to make any difference, because as we've seen during the supreme court testimony last week, no amount of expertise or actual knowledge makes any difference when it comes from the mouth of a woman. But... for those who continue to ignore how the word "guys" can be used differently, and why it makes a difference:
"What do you guys want for dinner?"
People, myself included, use this in English all the time because we have no good second person plural pronoun.
"We guys don't understand logic."
This is a gendered sentence that excludes some people (non-guys). It's not, "we don't understand logic," or "we women don't understand logic." This version of "guys" has a specific and different meaning from, "hey you guys!" It's this second version of "guys" that was used in Scott's original article until he changed it to "people" after I mentioned it.
For whatever it's worth (and I'm assuming next to nothing for many of those who have commented here), my undergraduate degree is in philosophy from the University of California, and my minors were French and German. No one here is going to out-logic or out-language me.
But logic and reason clearly don't matter to a lot of folks who are too stuck in the status quo, too mired in their same old ways of thinking--most likely because they personally benefit from the privilege of being in a dominant group--that the more a woman presents logic and reason, the more they will rally against and attack her.
And so it is.
Today is a Saturday. I'm taking my dog to the house I'm renovating so I can install light fixtures, replace circuit breakers, run PEX, and install finish plumbing. This is a house I redesigned from the studs with the help of my Master of Architecture. But what are credentials and credibility but words that just get in the way?
You do you. I'll do me.
You went from Scott using the word "guys" to this lengthy diatribe? Jeez!
- Rental Property Investor · Ankeny, IA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes7y
Jonny R. didn't read the entirety of the messages. Sorry Jonny, but you missed the point she was making. If anything, you helped make her point. And Mr. McNeil called her opinions a "diatribe". Again, us "guys" should stop trying to oppose fairness for all. It makes us look bad.
- Rental Property Investor · Dallas, Austin · Member since 2018 · 246 posts · 213 votes7y
Interesting thread. I use “you guys....us guys...” all the time. I guess I’m too concerned about my projects and investments to think how that is offensive. Whether BP is mostly man, honestly it’s just not a concern of mine. I’m a double minority not born here and speak three languages. It does not bother me one bit.
- Real Estate Agent · Arlington · Member since 2016 · 162 posts · 100 votes7y
Originally posted by @Anthony Wick:
Jonny R. didn't read the entirety of the messages. Sorry Jonny, but you missed the point she was making. If anything, you helped make her point. And Mr. McNeil called her opinions a "diatribe". Again, us "guys" should stop trying to oppose fairness for all. It makes us look bad.
My post wasn't in response to following messages. It was in response to her initial self righteous imposition upon the language other people use. It's pushy bossiness and doesn't belong on this blog which is more about pursuing wealth and freedom via real estate. Let's keep the focus to what it should be - alright guys?
- Rental Property Investor · Ankeny, IA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes7y
@Account Closed I respectfully disagree. She did a very good job of explaining why the article in question was not just a "you guys wanna grab dinner" non-descriptor. As a matter of fact, the original article writer completely agreed with her. Now, perhaps that argument doesn't belong on BP. However, an employee of BP is who wrote the initial article. And, BP itself could pull this entire thread if that's how they feel. And, if I may use your words, this blog is more about EVERYBODY pursuing wealth and freedom via real estate, not just "guys". Which is what I believe her initial post was all about. And again, your dismissal of this entire thread, and your mocking of it, is actually quite embarrassing to me, as a father of three daughters. And, not only have you dismissed her opinion completely, you double downed and did it again. Which is quite perplexing. So, let's make this our last post, lest we just continue to disagree on how one should treat all people.
- Real Estate Professional · Pawtucket, RI · Member since 2016 · 133 posts · 79 votes7y
I think this thread should be closed / deleted , it’s getting to political and I feel it has no place in these forums... just my 5cents
- Rental Property Investor · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes7yNot only was her point very well written, it was also acknowledged by the person it was directed to, and he corrected his mistake. What should have been the end of the discussion, became a group of men that are an embarrassment to themselves and men across the country. It's so sad that you dont see how you are part of the problem.... I agree that this thread should be closed, it's only going to become more embarrassing for our profession if allowed to continue.
- Real Estate Agent · Arlington · Member since 2016 · 162 posts · 100 votes7y
Great Anthony - thanks for your thoughts.
Meanwhile, this classic scene from The Goonies articulates my point.
- Rental Property Investor · Boise/Portland · Member since 2017 · 709 posts · 742 votes7y
Originally posted by @Anthony Wick:
Jonny R. didn't read the entirety of the messages. Sorry Jonny, but you missed the point she was making. If anything, you helped make her point. And Mr. McNeil called her opinions a "diatribe". Again, us "guys" should stop trying to oppose fairness for all. It makes us look bad.
Anthony, I suggest you read my initial response to Dani on pg 1 which puts this issue into proper pespective regarding the spirit and intent of initial post.
Also, I assured Dani that we all want to be sensitive about not offending anyone, whether by commission or omission.
May we now request the moderator to intervene and suspend this post.
- Investor · Detroit, MI · Member since 2016 · 211 posts · 144 votes7y
I am sure Scott was referring to guys as representing all BP members of which many are women but we will all be considerate of your feelings and not use the word, "guys" when talking about real estate investing without clarifying we are including all the wonderful , creative, and intelligent women members of our forum, including those that are just passing by. I apologize to you for any gender bias you interpreted as directed toward you.
This forum is all inclusive and that applies to any age person or group as well. I would think that it is self evident by the many posts on here by women members but if you need a direct clarification I for one would be more than willing to, and happy to welcome you personally as I am sure I speak for all.
We are all sensitive toward you but by the same token please do not become somebody that cries, "Wolf", that doe not speak well of you regardless of what Scott or anyone else does not doesn't do.
Your point taken, now shall we all get down to the business at hand?
- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes7y
Hm, as a woman, my thoughts are that constantly walking on egg shells is not my cup of tea.
After Scott appologized, the thread should have been finished. But instead it was just rubbed in over and over, every word and sentence examined and turned around.
And then BP shaming "...if BP really cared about ...." suggesting that BP doesn't really care unless they do what the op wants them to do. I think that's called manipulation, isn't it?
Real Estate investing is a male dominated field. So what? There are advantages and disadvantages to being a woman in this field and if you're aware of them, utilize them and it all evens out. I don't care who I deal with for my subs. Almost all are men. I won't chose someone because they're a woman and I won't chose someone because they're a man. I just do what I do, regardless of me being a woman.
- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes7y
Originally posted by @Nina Hayden:
Interesting thread. I use “you guys....us guys...” all the time. I guess I’m too concerned about my projects and investments to think how that is offensive. Whether BP is mostly man, honestly it’s just not a concern of mine. I’m a double minority not born here and speak three languages. It does not bother me one bit.
I never thought of it that way, but I'm an immigrant and a woman and thus a double minority as well and I think the same as you. No big deal to me. I'm ok to be one of the guys in this business.
- Investor · Detroit, MI · Member since 2016 · 211 posts · 144 votes7y
I went back to read that the arugement is made by an educated person. I have two PhD's One in Psychology and the other in Philiosophy. Your out of line, period. No one meant the meaning you are giving things and most people have the common sense to understand that. I think most people on here are not Ph.Ds nor do they need to be.
In any case we love you and really from deep inside our hearts wish you well and hope we can add some joy to your experience of being a real estate investor. To many of us real estate has provided us a life time of fulfilment and we wish to help others have a positive experience out of being real estate investors the same as we have including you, madame complaintant.
Sorry I am just a millionaire dumb Mexican real estate investor, Come on !! if anything every single person coming to this forum is welcomed unconditionally and consistently shown acceptance and assistance anytime they seek it. What you want to be special? Well in case you do not know it you are special, we love you. Please sit down and learn a thing or two , ok ? To us you are special, not because you are a woman, but because you are interested in the real estate investing profession, that makes you one of us guys, clear enough ?
- Developer · Atlanta and Detroit · Member since 2018 · 601 posts · 821 votes7y
I use "guys" frequently, referring to both, (male and female). I don't take offence whatsoever, however I never realised this could offensive to some. I will pay more attention in future.
Perhaps in future I will use..... gals and guys or folks
Interesting though I recently had a women contact me via a personal message on BP, stating that she is intimidated by the male investors on this forum. I think forums are a mixed bag and everyone has something to share, just have to get outside your comfort zone.
- Investor · Tobyhanna, PA · Member since 2015 · 61 posts · 46 votes7y@Dani Z. I'm female and an immigrant, so, double wimmie. Yes, the field is male dominated, yes, contractors always ask where is my husband and what he thinks of xyz. However, hanging in on specific words used in a post, is not going to help females to be taken seriously; making a drama over it is not going to help females investors to be taken more seriously. Even more, I believe it's doing the opposite, making us look like drama queens. Can we please just talk real estate, what we come here for and drop the dramatics, maybe then, we can be taken seriously.
- Rental Property Investor · Douglas County, MO · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes7y
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
Hm, as a woman, my thoughts are that constantly walking on egg shells is not my cup of tea.
After Scott appologized, the thread should have been finished. But instead it was just rubbed in over and over, every word and sentence examined and turned around.
I agree completely. I would also add that complaints like the OP just make it that much harder to have real issues taken seriously.
- Flipper/Rehabber · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2016 · 807 posts · 815 votes7y
So this is what it's come to... Although there are more males in this industry, there are many highly successful women who have done amazing things. I assure you they don't get hung up on a word in an article or create mental obsticles for themselves and act like they are somehow being oppressed by men in real estate. Also, I find it odd that you use "cis white male" as some kind of derogatory/condescending term.
- Rental Property Investor · Portland, OR · Member since 2015 · 338 posts · 332 votes7y
After taking some distance from my original posts, here are my thoughts:
I'm not the kind of person who gets stuck in a dogma and never lets go; I consider new information and will sometimes change my opinion. While I have not changed my opinion about about the specific use of the word "guys" in the sentence, “And even if rents are hit hard, I think that the guys like us here on BiggerPockets . . . ” I could have responded differently after Scott apologized.
While I still disagree with a lot of the comments on this thread, I'll admit that, at this moment in history with how the culture (political and otherwise) has been marginalizing women, I felt triggered by the use of gender-biased language from a man in a position of high power, and those emotions continued even after @Scott Trench apologized. So to Scott, I apologize for keeping the discussion going after you apologized and changed your original blog post. I appreciate that you engaged with me civilly and kept your cool, and I understand why Josh made you President of BP.
I also apologize to the BP community for any role I played in perpetuating anger. From Scientific American:
There's been a vitriol snowball on this thread, as is the tendency when outrage collides with instant gratification and the relative anonymity of the internet. But -- aside from some rare instances where anger can be productive (e.g. civil rights movement, women's suffrage, etc.) -- on the internet, anger typically begets more anger.
From The Guardian:
This thread has devolved into a virtual stoning. From the New York Times:
Almost everyone, especially the women, who said things like, "I use 'guys' all the time to refer to women and you're being over-sensitive etc." either didn't read my full comments or didn't understand them. For those people who read my full comments and believe they understood -- but who still disagree -- that's a different cultural blindness that I'm not going to comment about here anymore. Needless to say, after taking the time to clarify my meaning, and still getting attacked, I don't think that the people who criticized me heard me at all.
From Scientific American:
I don't believe anyone who commented here is a bad person, and we might have some things in common if we met in person. But forums like this make it too easy to gang up on someone. I still don't understand why though. I don't understand why anyone who attacked me here felt the need to, or what it could have possibly earned them. The only thing I can kinda-sorta understand are the women who disagreed with me, because there is safety and privilege when a marginalized group aligns with a powerful one. Heck, I would have been one of those women just a few short years ago, until I really started to question our language and culture and how it perpetuates dehumanization without us even realizing it. (Incidentally, the only women of color who replied to my original post did so via DM or email, in support.)
Incidentally, and to clear up the use of the English language: I am a cis white female. For those who commented about this, the term "cis white male" isn't an insult (unless you believe that being born a white male is a bad thing); it just is. Pointing out that someone is a cis white male highlights the likely fact that that individual is and always has a ton of power and privilege, and that he likely doesn't know what it's like to move through the world as anything else. Just like I don't know what it's like to move through the world as anything but a cis white female. (But my recent experience on BP has given me empathy for people in other marginalized groups, which is a good thing.)
I'm not surprised at how this thread turned out. Humans are predictable animals. And my guess is that people attracted to entrepreneurship and real estate investing tend to be "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" kinds of people, which, if left unchecked, could veer towards victim-blaming. I take responsibility for my part in perpetuating emotions on this thread, AND, some people commenting here have become a little Lord of the Flies-y.
One man said that he didn't want BP to become political. But the personal is political. The reality is: power, wealth, ideas around gender, privilege, etc. are all political -- especially when you're not in the dominant group. There are elements of all of these on BP, just as in our daily lives.
The reactions by many people on this thread (and of the people who voted on those reactions) gave me an opportunity to deeply consider the subject line of this thread. I used to be a Pro member here. Now I'm a Plus member but I just canceled that automatic credit card renewal. I almost disabled my account, but I wanted to first publicly apologize to Scott and BP for my role in perpetuating anger on this thread before doing so. Thank you everyone for giving me lots of information to consider.
- Investor · Soldotna, AK · Member since 2015 · 103 posts · 64 votes7y
WOW!!
I'm offended by all the whining about words. There is an old saying everyone should know by now -
Sticks and stones will break my bones but names (words) will never hurt me
No matter what anyone says there will always be someone, someplace who will be offended, period.
Only YOU can control YOUR feelings.
Men and women are different, always have been and always will be. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you will grow and empower YOURSELF by NOT being controlled by the words others use.
When I listen to podcast, I listen for the content. I could not care less if the person is black, white, yellow, male, female, straight or queer as long as they offer good info related to investing
Life is a lot less stressful when you learn to not be so sensitive or PC
- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes7y
Unbefreakinglievable!
Do you have any idea how condescending you are, when you claim that we simply don't understand you or are culturally blind? Or that if we disagree with you we're victim blaming? And previously you threw in your degrees and whatever else you've accomplished - does that make you feel so superior to all of us? How you used to think like us years ago.....but now you're just so much better. Do we all need to share our IQ, so that we can see who has the most right to state and insist on their opinion?
Do you understand that you do your own kind of bullying by stating that we must believe the way you believe or we're just not evolved enough?
You're trying to devaluate all of us and our opinions. Does that make you feel good?
- Rental Property Investor · Central, FL · Member since 2016 · 950 posts · 821 votes7y@Dani Z. I have never been so ashamed to be a part of BP. I hope I can raise my girls/boys to avoid ignorance like yours. Thanks for your opinion on what words can be used. But honestly no one cares. You stated in no uncertain terms that “girls” are more worried about results then stroking their own ego, but at the same time say that everyone should cater to you and request a private company to go out of their way to seek out females to have on the podcast. So is it that you care more about a female voice on the podcast then you do about the content? You can’t have it both ways. Either everyone is equal and you get what you get and you don’t throw a fit. Or you use what you seem to think AND that you specifically need a hand up to get equal to others. Don’t step on other people on your raise to your high and mighty attitude.
- Flipper/Rehabber · Bakersfield, CA · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes7y
Boy you guys take words way too serious.
- Rental Property Investor · Dallas, Austin · Member since 2018 · 246 posts · 213 votes7y
Wow. Where do I begin?
Dani- you’re a confused privileged white female. How does that feel? So It’s ok for you to insult anyone that doesn’t fit your agenda because they are white or male? Because they don’t talk the way you want them to?
Message me. Call me. Let’s talk. I don’t hide behind a screen. I can give you first hand insights of living in a third world country. You do not speak for everyone woman, not here on BP or anywhere. Period. You don’t speak for me. Period. And you don’t get to tell me how I need to speak. I say “you guys...us guys” ALL the time. It’s how I speak. If you get offended, that’s YOUR problem.
You’re angry about something deeper and simply taking it out on this forum. Then you cancel your subscription. Who’s the one hiding now?
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