Help With Mobile Home Repairs PLEASE!
Real Estate Investor · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2016 · 49 posts · 6 votes
Roslynn,
I am both a park owner and an engineering/construction professional. I cannot count on all my fingers and toes the number of reasons that you do NOT want to buy the materials for your contractor.
If you have a trustworthy contractor, then they won't take advantage of you. They will buy the materials, make a fair profit on them, and install them. If you want to ensure a fair profit and no more, then bid the work to 3 or 4 contractors. Don't bid it to more than 4 because if they're bidding against 6 other contractors then "if I get the job I don't want it; I must have forgotten something". More than 4 bidders is counter-productive.
Now, if you do provide materials, and your chosen contractor is the type that will take advantage of you, you have provided that contractor uncountable ways of taking your money. A few Examples:
a) Material is not on site, through no fault of yours. Your contractor doesn't care; they will simply charge you for their non-productive time. On most mobile home rehab projects a few hours of crew time FAR exceeds any amount of savings you would realize purchasing your own materials.
b) If you provide the materials, are you going to be there at all times to unload them? If not, you're going to pay the contractor to unload them. Are you paying them to inspect them as well? If not, and the contractor goes to install a window, or bathtub, or stove...and there is damage, the contractor will look at you with a helpless look and ask "Do you want me to put the broken one in?". You can blame the contractor, but couple with another helpless look will say "Well, I didn't do it. It must have happened during shipping, or storage, or the kids in the trailer next door must have done it." In any case, you're still paying for it, AND dealing with it.
c) Material comes on site, it is perfect, it is not broken, BUT it doesn't fit. Since it doesn't fit, Mr. Contractor will modify a few things to make it work......for a nominal fee.....AGAIN way more than you ever saved on mark-up for that item. Your material not fitting is not the contractors problem, unless you were VERY specific and made the contractor responsible. To save you grief, let me just tell you that you cannot be specific enough for a low-ball contractor; they will get you.
d) Walls have bows in them. NOT his problem; you supplied the crappy lumber. The lumber yard didn't "crown" the studs so the Contractor installed what YOU supplied. He can take it out and put clean, straight lumber in.........for a nominal fee.
e) All your lumber, drywall, corner bead, sub-floor, deck materials were delivered to your home site surrounded by OTHER mobile homes, neighborhoods, etc. As framing work comes to a close, your contractor tells you you're short, 22 studs, 8 sheets of OSB, 6 sheets of drywall, 2 buckets of drywall mud, and you have no base molding. You KNOW you had these all delivered, but they are not there now. MAYBE they are being used on his other job?
* Garbage disposal doesn't work after installation. NOT the contractors problem, all he did was install it. YOU bought it and it doesn't work. YOU take care of it...and he won't charge you to re-install it if his electrician doesn't charge him.
* Stove doesn't work; not his problem.
* Dishwasher doesn't work; not his problem.
* Refrigerator doesn't work...Furnace.........windows don't slide, doors don't open, flooring doesn't lay right, faucet leaks, bathtub has a chip, , etc, etc, etc.
I'm guessing by now you get the point.
Lets, for fun, run some numbers:
TOTAL Material cost for an average MH Rehab.....lets go with $7,000. Lets say for example your contractor knows he has you on your heels so he puts an outlandish mark-up of 25%, for handling, off-loading, storing, INSURING, and warranty on the material.
So you end up paying:
$7,000 x 1.25 = $8,750 for $7,000 worth of material. Wow that is too much..............or is it?
In EITHER case, you have to pic the materials and specify what you want. (leave OUT size, make the contractor measure and be responsible for fit.)(i.e, you order 10 squares of roofing.
What YOU DON'T have to do: Arrange, and be responsible for, delivery. You don't have to coordinate with your contractor, the supplier, and the wholesaler. Lets say you have to order 20 items and get them delivered. Say it takes 30 minutes each for "coordination, follow up, quality control, storage, etc.) 20 x .5 hours = 10 hours of your time.
Lets say there are 2 windows broken on site: Did it happen during shipping, unloading, or storage. You didn't buy them, so you don't care. Instead of an hour long trip to investigate, determine cause, which will almost never be certain unless you were there and personally unloaded everything, and another couple of hours of re-ordering, re-coordinating, and following up, you get to say "take care of it". Save another 3 hours.
Lets say something like this happens, or shortages, or wrong color, or wrong item, or wrong.....10 more times; Another 30 hours of your time. PLUS your contractor doesn't get to charge you for delays. 11 delays x 2 hours/delay x 3 men x $15/hour = $990.
THEN....3 months down the road, the dishwasher quits working. You can spend 15 hours dealing with it, or 3 hours getting your Contractor to fix HIS material. (1 year labor/installation warranty)
I could go on and on, however lets just see where you are:
$1875 too much paid for material
-$990 from contractor delays = $885 additional costs
10 hours + 33 hours + 12 hours of your time (very simplistic example) = 55 hours of your time saved.
$885/55 = $16/hour you paid yourself to deal with this.
Your time is certainly worth more than $16/hour, isn't it?
There could be more or less, but there will always be issued if you provide the material.
Find a responsible contractor and let them do their job. For those of you who "can't find a responsible contractor", you're either not looking hard enough or your demands are unrealistic. There are on-line resources everywhere for finding good, reliable contractors.
I have seen it every day for the last 30+ years of construction; you want $1000 worth of construction for $600 dollars. Would you do $1000 worth of work for $600? Whatever you do for a living, I guarantee I can find someone that will do it for 40% less. Should I use them without expecting some performance sacrifices? Are they as good as you?
In construction, as with most things, you typically get what you pay for.
DON'T STEP OVER A DOLLAR TO PICK UP A DIME!
It's up to you how you want to structure it. Some tend to work more slowly if you pay by the hour or day but that is not always the case. I usually pay for materials over the phone and they pick them up. If you pay by the job then you should figure out what most local companies will do it for so you can figure out whether they are asking too much. Don't pay until the job is complete or until the end of the day because they could be a flight risk. If they can send pictures when the job is complete and will accept check by mail, PayPal, or credit card then you may not even have to travel. It is better to start with small jobs first before giving them larger jobs so that you can determine their skill level, trustworthiness, and value.
We just got our first mobile home deal, and are looking for some guidance on working out the logistics of doing mobile home repairs. We are to instruct Contractors/handymen that we solicit to NOT include costs of materials in their bids, correct? So that means they are bidding labor costs only- based on the task. We (investors) price, buy, and deliver windows, siding, skirting, linoleum, carpet, floor boards, AC, etc. We then determine from repairman we hire what additional materials (nails, caulking, etc.) he needs per job and we buy those items and have ready at mobile home also?
Bottom line: the investor buys all materials needed and delivers to the job site? And most importantly, we pay by the job, NOT the hour, right?
Do we have this correct?
All advice and tips are greatly appreciated!
You can do it either way. It depends on how involved you want to be in the project. Keep in mind that if you are the "gopher" that means you might have to drop everything to go get a single box of screws. The main thing is to make sure everyone is bidding the exact same thing. That way you can get an accurate comparison.
Many mobile home jobs don't take as long to do. Windows and doors go in with ease. (Mostly) there are maybe twenty door sizes that look exactly the same size as the the other. They are not. That's why it's usually better for the builder to get the materials on these jobs. A three hundred dollar door is two inches too small then you just ate that if it's wrong. If he buys it he eats it. Then you have a hard time finding another house with that size door so it goes into storage. I bought a high end storm door at Lowe's for twenty dollars. I was so proud of myself. Uncrated it and it was a six foot door for a trailer house. Still have it ten years later.
Best of luck.
@Account Closed
Congrats!
You have a good plan. Have them bid the job, you buy the materials. As was mentioned... have them pick up materials. Logic? They would have to pick up materials anyway if they bought them. Once you have done several, you can order online or by phone and save running around time, if you choose.
I'm sure you know... You can buy and put on 'will call' at Home Depot, Lowe's and other places.
You didn't mention the year of your project. If it's newer it is easier, but if older it can be a challenge when first starting. As was mentioned, part are not all created equal. Newer tubs can be standard 60 inches but older ones are 55 inches. That can be a problem, yes?
As was also mentioned, mobile homes are NOT houses. Make sure your contractors/handymen(women) KNOW mobile homes. Critical with older ones.
How to find a good contractor? Referrals - if in a park, ask the manager who they know and trust. This gives you a shorter path to find them and praises the manager as having good opinions. Give them a small job and observe/monitor to see what they say and how they perform. If ok, you can give bigger jobs.
When I started mobile home rehabbing, I hired a contractor who 'said' he knew mobiles but did NOT know mobiles. I gave him a whole project to do. It was a disaster. I had to fire him and crew and bring in a contractor I knew could do it. That crew was on another job so didn't bring them in initially. Lesson learned.
Good luck!
That approach is fine if you want to be your own GC & PM, however, as @Mike Reynolds, so aptly stated if you want to micro manage your job and have noting else better to do with your time go for it. But having been a GC & MH contractor, dealer, developer and RE broker for the past 3 decades I can tell you first hand that I avoid customers like you like the plague. Too many interruptions, inane questions, changing mind, etc.
Add to that the insurance and liability issues should there be an accident or problem that was not caused by something that I did directly but, moreover, by something that you may have caused by constantly being too hands on.
Case in point. You purchase all the lumber and have it delivered to the job site and while unloading it there's an accident or damage done wile offing the load. Guess who get's drawn into the lawsuit? MOI! Why, you ask? Because I'm the one who's got the insurance co's deep pockets.
Hungry and greedy attorneys will just start throwing around lawsuits like there's no tomorrow and they target the pour souls with the deepest pockets. Once served the burden of proof is on the contractors shoulders and it ain't cheap even if you do get released from the complaint. I know this for a fact because I've been down that road.
It's like my Granpa always used to say. "Run your job. Don't let your job run you. In today's economy there's just too many other fish to fry. Why on Earth would I ever want to subject my self to 3rd party contracting. Especially from someone who's not a contractor and may not even know anything about construction.
Hate to be so direct but that's coming from an experienced contractor who's been there and done that a time or two. But good luck.
Roslynn,
I am both a park owner and an engineering/construction professional. I cannot count on all my fingers and toes the number of reasons that you do NOT want to buy the materials for your contractor.
If you have a trustworthy contractor, then they won't take advantage of you. They will buy the materials, make a fair profit on them, and install them. If you want to ensure a fair profit and no more, then bid the work to 3 or 4 contractors. Don't bid it to more than 4 because if they're bidding against 6 other contractors then "if I get the job I don't want it; I must have forgotten something". More than 4 bidders is counter-productive.
Now, if you do provide materials, and your chosen contractor is the type that will take advantage of you, you have provided that contractor uncountable ways of taking your money. A few Examples:
a) Material is not on site, through no fault of yours. Your contractor doesn't care; they will simply charge you for their non-productive time. On most mobile home rehab projects a few hours of crew time FAR exceeds any amount of savings you would realize purchasing your own materials.
b) If you provide the materials, are you going to be there at all times to unload them? If not, you're going to pay the contractor to unload them. Are you paying them to inspect them as well? If not, and the contractor goes to install a window, or bathtub, or stove...and there is damage, the contractor will look at you with a helpless look and ask "Do you want me to put the broken one in?". You can blame the contractor, but couple with another helpless look will say "Well, I didn't do it. It must have happened during shipping, or storage, or the kids in the trailer next door must have done it." In any case, you're still paying for it, AND dealing with it.
c) Material comes on site, it is perfect, it is not broken, BUT it doesn't fit. Since it doesn't fit, Mr. Contractor will modify a few things to make it work......for a nominal fee.....AGAIN way more than you ever saved on mark-up for that item. Your material not fitting is not the contractors problem, unless you were VERY specific and made the contractor responsible. To save you grief, let me just tell you that you cannot be specific enough for a low-ball contractor; they will get you.
d) Walls have bows in them. NOT his problem; you supplied the crappy lumber. The lumber yard didn't "crown" the studs so the Contractor installed what YOU supplied. He can take it out and put clean, straight lumber in.........for a nominal fee.
e) All your lumber, drywall, corner bead, sub-floor, deck materials were delivered to your home site surrounded by OTHER mobile homes, neighborhoods, etc. As framing work comes to a close, your contractor tells you you're short, 22 studs, 8 sheets of OSB, 6 sheets of drywall, 2 buckets of drywall mud, and you have no base molding. You KNOW you had these all delivered, but they are not there now. MAYBE they are being used on his other job?
* Garbage disposal doesn't work after installation. NOT the contractors problem, all he did was install it. YOU bought it and it doesn't work. YOU take care of it...and he won't charge you to re-install it if his electrician doesn't charge him.
* Stove doesn't work; not his problem.
* Dishwasher doesn't work; not his problem.
* Refrigerator doesn't work...Furnace.........windows don't slide, doors don't open, flooring doesn't lay right, faucet leaks, bathtub has a chip, , etc, etc, etc.
I'm guessing by now you get the point.
Lets, for fun, run some numbers:
TOTAL Material cost for an average MH Rehab.....lets go with $7,000. Lets say for example your contractor knows he has you on your heels so he puts an outlandish mark-up of 25%, for handling, off-loading, storing, INSURING, and warranty on the material.
So you end up paying:
$7,000 x 1.25 = $8,750 for $7,000 worth of material. Wow that is too much..............or is it?
In EITHER case, you have to pic the materials and specify what you want. (leave OUT size, make the contractor measure and be responsible for fit.)(i.e, you order 10 squares of roofing.
What YOU DON'T have to do: Arrange, and be responsible for, delivery. You don't have to coordinate with your contractor, the supplier, and the wholesaler. Lets say you have to order 20 items and get them delivered. Say it takes 30 minutes each for "coordination, follow up, quality control, storage, etc.) 20 x .5 hours = 10 hours of your time.
Lets say there are 2 windows broken on site: Did it happen during shipping, unloading, or storage. You didn't buy them, so you don't care. Instead of an hour long trip to investigate, determine cause, which will almost never be certain unless you were there and personally unloaded everything, and another couple of hours of re-ordering, re-coordinating, and following up, you get to say "take care of it". Save another 3 hours.
Lets say something like this happens, or shortages, or wrong color, or wrong item, or wrong.....10 more times; Another 30 hours of your time. PLUS your contractor doesn't get to charge you for delays. 11 delays x 2 hours/delay x 3 men x $15/hour = $990.
THEN....3 months down the road, the dishwasher quits working. You can spend 15 hours dealing with it, or 3 hours getting your Contractor to fix HIS material. (1 year labor/installation warranty)
I could go on and on, however lets just see where you are:
$1875 too much paid for material
-$990 from contractor delays = $885 additional costs
10 hours + 33 hours + 12 hours of your time (very simplistic example) = 55 hours of your time saved.
$885/55 = $16/hour you paid yourself to deal with this.
Your time is certainly worth more than $16/hour, isn't it?
There could be more or less, but there will always be issued if you provide the material.
Find a responsible contractor and let them do their job. For those of you who "can't find a responsible contractor", you're either not looking hard enough or your demands are unrealistic. There are on-line resources everywhere for finding good, reliable contractors.
I have seen it every day for the last 30+ years of construction; you want $1000 worth of construction for $600 dollars. Would you do $1000 worth of work for $600? Whatever you do for a living, I guarantee I can find someone that will do it for 40% less. Should I use them without expecting some performance sacrifices? Are they as good as you?
In construction, as with most things, you typically get what you pay for.
DON'T STEP OVER A DOLLAR TO PICK UP A DIME!
I would typically:
a. Find the materials you want and identify them by make, model #, color, etc. You have to do this anyway so this is no extra effort.
* Get pricing for the materials yourself. (don't buy them and don't provide your prices to the contractor). After you have your materials selected, and your internal pricing, THEN get hard pricing from your Contractor(s) on the materials. Break them out by item:
8 windows; installed in existing openings: Anderson series 70, double-hung, double-pane, low-e, with grids. Contractor responsible for sizing, fit and finish. Total cost = $__________________
3 interior doors; installed in existing openings: hollow 6 panel, Home Depot Model....... Contractor responsible for sizing, fit and finish. Total Cost = $_____________________.
1 range; LG Model ______________. Contractor responsible for fit and finish. Total Cost = $____________
b. For materials where the quantity needs measured and there will be waste, provide the make, model, color, finish, etc. but make the Contractor measure and be responsible for the QUANTITY.
Examples of these types of materials are:
Counter tops, Roofing, flooring, any sheet goods (dry wall, paneling), paint, siding, and framing materials, deck lumber.
You need to price these things (Just like you would if you were to buy them yourself) but let the contractor tell you how much they cost.
Typical bid item would be:
Roofing: Certainteed 30 year architectural shingles, Hollow Green, over new 30# felt, with drip edge, starter course and ridge vent to match. _____(Quantity)__ squares @ $_________/square = Total Cost $_________________.
If there is huge discrepancy between bidders on Quantities or $/quantity, find out why. (remember, the contractor has to put his overhead costs and profit somewhere, so there WILL be some mark-up). Since you know the costs you can see if the contractor is gouging you.
You can also write into your materials contract that Contractor is allowed X% waste (5% to 8%) on indefinite quantity materials and X% mark-up (5% to 20% depending on complexity) for all materials.
It is not uncommon for contractors to be able to purchase items cheaper than you can due their purchase volume. I find in many instances I actually save money with contractors purchasing items.
If done correctly you will not be responsible for materials until the job is complete, and until you have signed off on the completed rehab. It is all risk mitigation.
Pay them as CONTRACTOS! Not your "hired at the Home Depot" guys holding their hands up hoping you'll pick them up. Come on @Account Closed you either want to hire a CONTRACTOR or a HANDYMAN! If you're going to enter this arena enter as a PRO. Not an amateur not quite knowing what to do.
@Account Closed Regarding hiring contractors, you can bid it out separately for the materials and the work. I've done it myself but for larger items such as paint, sinks, etc. Though, I don't do it for building materials such as wood, roofing, etc. I leave that up to the contractor.
When I first started out as a mobile home investor, I went this route for little things as I hired contractors who did this type of work on the side (after work hours). Though it got a bit tedious going back and forth trying to find the right part...myself.
Eventually, I let the contractors supply the small stuff and building materials. Still asked for bids on the larger items as mentioned.
Hope that helps. If you're interested in learning more about working with contractors, I wrote a book on the subject about my experience in this niche. Good luck!
Having read several realistic and interesting answers on this thread I still haven't heard anyone discuss "XACTIMATE". (Copy & paste this into your address bar as BP will delete any comments that link to another business). The mark of a truly good contractor is generally the tools in his tool bag along with his experience and level of sophistication.
Xactimate over the years has more than proven itself as one of the best tools a truly good contractor could have in his tool chest. It's not cheap to become a certified Xactimate contractor either. But when one does take the time to learn it and spend the money to purchase and own it it's one of the most reliable tools both the contractor and the customer could ever ask for.
It's a software program the most insurance companies not only rely on but insist that any contractor they work with be certified on and use. Its algorithms can hone in on every geographical location in the Country by zip code. Then it factors in that zones net labor and material costs on a unit and line item cost.
Once all line items have been entered on the estimate Xactimate will allow for what is called a 10 & 10 mark up; That's 10% on material and 10% on labor. It really doesn't get much more honest or realiable than that.
Having been licensed in California, Arizona, Oregon and Florida at one time or another over the past 30+ years as a disaster response contractor I can tell you first hand that if you're not an Xactimate certified contractor you might as well pack up your tool chest and go home because the chance that any insurance companies or emergency response providers i.e FEMA will use you. Reason? Xactimate has proven to be one of the most fair and realistic tools used in today's competitive construction industry.
@Account Closed Hello Roslynn,. You are doing the right thing. This will teach you the learning curve and truly understanding/appreciating/not appreciating contractors and the rehab process. The best way is hands on learning. You are starting out and aren't doing anything different than others have. Hire a contractor once you know the process, pricing, process of rehab in your area and are comfortable with the contractor running the show. Contractors can run your price up in no time at all. There are plenty of competent, licensed skilled trades people to perform your required work. while you act as Contractor. You can also meet at Home Depot or wherever and let your hired people pick out the materials and you pay at checkout. Again, this is vital to learn/appreciate the process and professionals. Eventually you will probably meet and hire a General Contractor to run your projects when you feel it is necessary. I sure am glad I have learned (continuing to learn) the process and saved THOUSANDS of dollars in doing so. My time, my money and learning are worth every penny. I would get 3 Contractor quotes and see the difference of you doing the buying of materials and sub contracting yourself. I think you will be amazed (good and bad)
I can't argue with @Dylan Vargas at all. He's spot on. My only concern is your time capabilities. If you have the time to do as he suggests then by all means do so. You'd be very wise to go through that learning curve so you'd have a pretty educated guess when it comes time to actually step away from the hands on in the trench end of the game.
You can also be building your bench while doing so. As my ole football coach always used to say as long as he keeps his bench deep he'll always be able to compete on the field. When you get multiple projects going it may then behoove you to start stepping away from the daily hands on, however.
Pay more for a fast, good, mobile home & trailer experienced person! My friend used her mom's handyman that had no experience at all with mobile homes. She told him to just fix the water stained areas of the ceiling. Instead he tore out the entire ceiling and made the leaks worse on the roof. A disaster that cost her $3000 and months of delays. Because of this one mistake, she made no money on her flip. Remember that mobile homes move, expand & contract more than a stick built home.
So, the workers need to know how to accommodate this when doing drywall and flooring. Never use hard tile on the floors, they will eventually move & crack. best to use laminate products - the peel & stick tile that is groutable is great, just make sure to use the special grout that is expandable...is in small pre-mixed containers on shelf near the peel-n-stick tiles. Also, for backsplashes, there is a new vinyl peel-n-stick tile product that looks great - better to have a slow detail oriented person to install -not a product for the average handyman, takes time and attention to detail to make it even.
made some excellent points. One of the problems with government jobs which pay "prevailing wages" which are multiples of the true going rate is that the workers move like their feet are in honey. Paying buy the hour and being responsible for materials is a bad idea. Specifying certain material attributes and having liquidated damages provisions to keep contractors on schedule are good ideas.
As for estimating software, watch out, as it can be a tool to nickel and dime people to death. For example, we have reviewed restoration bids where they tried to charge more for usage of equipment such as air scrubbers or dehumidifiers than those units cost new. Presenting the cost as a long list of line items makes it much harder for the buyer to evaluate and contest any one item. Instead, use a good specification which tells bidders they need to anticipate things such as the need to raise or lower and electrical box to install a cabinet and a good schedule for the work to obtain firm-fixed price bids.