[MN] How to Get Hourly Realtor?

[MN] How to Get Hourly Realtor?

Member since 2019 · 30 posts · 10 votes

I'm sure I'm not alone in being frustrated with realtors. My most recent experience I knew exactly what property I was after (like most investors its just a numbers game) and figured it would be a quick and easy purchase (depressed market no other bidders). My realtor didn't have to do a bunch of showings or anything so I engaged him in a rebating deal. I offered him a fixed minimum and if it something gets discovered as a time sink he can take an hourly minimum. He didn't want that and instead countered that he'd just rebate half and I accepted. 

Well a major item was discovered in inspection, etc. (unit has had an issue with flooding and likely fix is extremely expensive). Sure enough because realtor commission structure basically incentivizes him into working against me (I effectively get stuck with 2 sellers agents instead of 1 for me) and keeps trying to downplay it in order to get a deal done. I have to turn to a client who I know buys property likely with these issues and he tells me to probably run from this. I actually decide to make a generous offer reflecting some of the cost to fix, seller scoffs, and my buyers agent acts like a wounded puppy to make me feel bad for wanting to revise my offer in any way over a place that has an expensive flooding problem. Also if you think I just have a "bad realtor", I've met many and he's probably one of the nicer more reasonable ones, but I do feel like the realtor commission incentives even make a good realtor at least a little difficult to work with. Even if something like is fixable with a better commissioned realtor the problem is that I wouldn't know them out of the gate so its not like I could actually trust them until after a few transactions they proved they weren't just always very biased into me saying yes on a deal (regardless of whether its good deal or not).


Is it really too much to ask for letting a realtor take a high hourly rate out of the commission and rebate the rest? In the low chance a deal doesn't go through I'll just roll the hours spent on that one into the next one and the rebate to me on that one shrinks? Its really weird that realtors will agree to like $50-100 from another realtor to help do a showing while one of them is on vacation, but offer them a much higher hourly rate in a rebating deal and so many act like I'm destroying their industry.


I'm a business owner who pays current staff very generously. I also frequently bonus/tip extra when I know someone has given me more useful information than I'd expect or for putting in extra effort. I prefer to put much of my surplus earnings into investment real estate over the years and looking for a long term realtor that has a decent head on their shoulders and while I think all pay structures have their pro's and con's... I'd prefer much less conflicted than the current set up. Note: I'd also rather not get my own license... I am rather busy and I am willing to pay well to outsource certain items.

Any suggestions on finding a realtor that would agree to something like this is appreciated. If you are a realtor in the MN (Twin Cities) market and you're open to a relationship like this feel free to private message me.

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Russell BrazilBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
4y

Sounds like you are asking for top notch service from a discount professional. 

The really good agents are not out there looking for an hourly pay or to do rebates....the top ones have so many people begging to work for them that they have way more business than they can handle.

All real estate agents are not created equal, and Im by no means saying all full priced ones are good....but definitely the good ones are not discounting because they have no need to. 

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Member since 2019 · 30 posts · 10 votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Jonathan Bombaci:

    @Jon D. first off most agents work for brokerages and have commission splits like 70/30 meaning 30% of the commissIon goes to the broker. They really do not have a legal framework to agree to what you’re asking for because the broker calls the shots and the broker will still want their share of the total commission at closing to cover their expenses. In addition Agents at most brokerages are 1099 contractors, if a broker agrees to pay an agent an hourly wage for services rendered, the broker could then become subject to labor law issues. In MA hourly pay is one of the tiggers for needing to make someone a W2 employee. Labor law fines are not cheap. 

    So don’t bother negotiating with agents, for what you’re asking you’d have to be negotiating with the broker. If you plan to do less than 10-20 transaction per year I doubt ANY broker, even the less successful ones, would risk their business model and expose themself to legal and liability issues, which could be significant, for 1 client. The successful brokers will get this and they’re not going to set a bad precedent to satisfy 1 client regardless of how many transactions that client intends to do in a year. 


    If you do find someone willing to do this, if this isn’t their model for everyone they work with, then I would question their motives and you should expect to get what you pay for. 

    Another example of why this would be an awful idea for anyone that treats real estate as a business is because it will inherently create a conflict of interest for the business owner. Do You think they will bring you off-market or pre-market deals where they could collect the full commission from another buyer? They’ll certainly be motivated to bring it to someone else first, which makes sense from every angle, but you’re paying them a hourly retainer which creates a significant conflict of interest for the brokerage and the agents. One such that if blows up could have very negative results. 

    If you’re just looking for an agent to submit offers for you then do what the bigger investors and wholesalers do and hire a transaction coordinator or administrator with a real estate license as a W2 employee. You will have to go get your brokerage license or negotiate a deal with a broker so your employee can operate as a licensed agent. Then pay your employee an annual salary and still pay the broker a % of the commission or transaction fee at closing, but it’ll be closer to what you’re asking for. 

    I know this is a lot, and probably not the answer you’re looking for but I hope it helps. 

    Best,

    Jon

    Jon,

    I'm sorry, but the information you're putting out there in this post is just over the top and with the nature of my work I know tax laws/contractor vs. W2 rules and tests better than most. There is zero chance than a realtor in any state billing hourly would risk W2 status.

    While there are plenty of large brokerage houses that have commission splits like you mention and therefore have rules in place to protect their split... you and me both know there are plenty that don't.

    Extremist straw man arguments to try to defend an idea that you can't really defend any other way doesn't help anyone nor further better understanding on a forum like this (where people come to learn)

  • Member since 2019 · 30 posts · 10 votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Jonathan Bombaci:
    Originally posted by @Gary Lucido:
    Originally posted by @Jonathan Bombaci:

    @Jon D. first off most agents work for brokerages and have commission splits like 70/30 meaning 30% of the commissIon goes to the broker. They really do not have a legal framework to agree to what you’re asking for because the broker calls the shots and the broker will still want their share of the total commission at closing to cover their expenses. In addition Agents at most brokerages are 1099 contractors, if a broker agrees to pay an agent an hourly wage for services rendered, the broker could then become subject to labor law issues. In MA hourly pay is one of the tiggers for needing to make someone a W2 employee. Labor law fines are not cheap. 

    So don’t bother negotiating with agents, for what you’re asking you’d have to be negotiating with the broker. If you plan to do less than 10-20 transaction per year I doubt ANY broker, even the less successful ones, would risk their business model and expose themself to legal and liability issues, which could be significant, for 1 client. The successful brokers will get this and they’re not going to set a bad precedent to satisfy 1 client regardless of how many transactions that client intends to do in a year. 


    If you do find someone willing to do this, if this isn’t their model for everyone they work with, then I would question their motives and you should expect to get what you pay for. 

    Another example of why this would be an awful idea for anyone that treats real estate as a business is because it will inherently create a conflict of interest for the business owner. Do You think they will bring you off-market or pre-market deals where they could collect the full commission from another buyer? They’ll certainly be motivated to bring it to someone else first, which makes sense from every angle, but you’re paying them a hourly retainer which creates a significant conflict of interest for the brokerage and the agents. One such that if blows up could have very negative results. 

    If you’re just looking for an agent to submit offers for you then do what the bigger investors and wholesalers do and hire a transaction coordinator or administrator with a real estate license as a W2 employee. You will have to go get your brokerage license or negotiate a deal with a broker so your employee can operate as a licensed agent. Then pay your employee an annual salary and still pay the broker a % of the commission or transaction fee at closing, but it’ll be closer to what you’re asking for. 

    I know this is a lot, and probably not the answer you’re looking for but I hope it helps. 

    Best,

    Jon

    Good points. The only way I'm able to do this is that 1) I have my own brokerage and 2) hourly is a small percentage of our business and 3) I do some of this myself and I'm W2. As long as you keep it small enough you don't get into the W2 issue. 

    But as far as off market deals are concerned. Fair point from a buyer's perspective but sellers shouldn't use a broker that is shopping their property to favorite buyers without putting it out for everyone to bid on.

    Off-markets are often shopped quietly because the owner doesn’t want tenants or neighbors to know. Many times it’s in the sellers best interest to have a quite sale and it’s what they ask for, especially on larger buildings. In these scenarios We typically can only get 1-3 buyers through properties like this before “the gig is up”. 

    Since folks are bringing up pocket listings. I didn't feel I needed to write this, but there are a lot of pocket listings in my market and I'd make clear to anyone I'm working with that I'm paying full commission for any pocket listing. But MLS stuff I source... is what we're talking here.
     

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    4y

    I normally get the full 'rebate' in a discounted PP buying solo, but this hot market has LAs requiring I have an agent to get on the viewing list, usually a 15 or 20 minute window day 2. 

    So I retain an agent that is also my tenant. I have 2. May as well keep it in-house. My typical discount went from $8,000 to $2500 last time.

    She accompanied us at the viewing and our offer was successful.  $9k isn't bad for a few hours work. It should help her qualify to buy the rental of ours she has a lease option on. 

    The commission structure is not commensurate with effort or expertise.  We pay the same whether our representation is good, bad or indifferent.   We pay the same % whether the investment is $300k or $2M. We pay the same whether they carted us around for 6 months or attended 1 viewing with us. 

    With less effort and higher asset prices, why are commissions still 3/6%? SMH

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    4y

    Questions like these have been posted hundreds if not thousands of times on these forums over the decades.

    I am on the commercial side not residential. Commissions can be in the 7 figures per year. The elite brokers and agents in the business a long time do not have time for such games as (let's make a deal). The agent rebating half is likely very desperate for business (rebates are not allowed in some states and an agent with a brokerage needs to check their IC agreement if head broker even allows it.) I have seen agents do a rebate before and head broker did not approve it so essentially all the money went to the brokerage and the agent got ZERO and worked for FREE.

    If you really believe agents are worth just 50 bucks an hour or so then might want to get your license so you can do things yourself or find some kind of discount brokerage that works on volume. You won't find great service typically and low fees because to make any money the brokers and agents have to make it up on volume. Volume goes up and quality goes down. So you might get cheap but you lose high level service so a trade off.

    You certainly would not like what I make at thousands per hour for my time. My clients can make millions off their investments or lose millions and that often depends on finding and buying the right property and having an excellent broker helps put odd in your favor.

    In fact I get paid more to find properties.

    I make buyers send financials, sign an exclusive agreement, etc. or I do not lift a finger. I am an investor also so I can pick and choose which buyers I want. I turned down one with 25 million the other day. They would not sign an exclusive. Same week 3 other high net worth buyers would.

    I can have 50 inquiries to work with me and only take 10 to 15 and make millions per year.

    Long term investors in any asset class know good brokers and agents have great value. They want those brokers and agents bringing the deals to them first.

    Who do you think I bring my great deals to? Those that sign the agreement to work with me exclusively. Those just looking and calling around I do not even respond to them. My assistant deletes that crap.  

    Good luck on your investing journey.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:

    I normally get the full 'rebate' in a discounted PP buying solo, but this hot market has LAs requiring I have an agent to get on the viewing list, usually a 15 or 20 minute window day 2. 

    So I retain an agent that is also my tenant. I have 2. May as well keep it in-house. My typical discount went from $8,000 to $2500 last time.

    She accompanied us at the viewing and our offer was successful.  $9k isn't bad for a few hours work. It should help her qualify to buy the rental of ours she has a lease option on. 

    The commission structure is not commensurate with effort or expertise.  We pay the same whether our representation is good, bad or indifferent.   We pay the same % whether the investment is $300k or $2M. We pay the same whether they carted us around for 6 months or attended 1 viewing with us. 

    With less effort and higher asset prices, why are commissions still 3/6%? SMH

    commissions in many markets are coming down Steve..  in PDX the day of the 6% listing is long gone its 4 to 5 now. 

    ON my new construction I offer a dollar amount.. you do not have to pay a %  so I figure out what dollar amount I want to pay and offer that.  It seems in my market as long as its about 10k realtors still show our product..  Plus so many realtors and or the public cant do basic math so they dont bother to figure out what 10k is as a % of the listing price..  they just know they are getting a nice check !!  

    the other big box builders are doing this too.. 5k flat fee.. some are paying NOTHING.. which they prefer because they want to work with the buyers direct.. in new construction its a ton of work when you have pre sales for owner occ..   

  • Member since 2019 · 30 posts · 10 votes
    4y

    The straw men is endless. Now we're apparently talking about $50 an hour. Some brokerage houses don't allow it (duh). 

    You and me both know that plenty of realtors with a lot of business will still rebate since either they get that extra business or they don't. Its hard to walk away from $4,000+ for 5 hours of work no matter how good you are if you have really any loose time in your schedule (which again most honest agents would agree that they typically have a bit of loose time if they aren't carting around tons of 4 month shoppers).

    And since many of these comments are loaded with dishonesty, half truths at best, severely biased answers, etc. all you're proving is that a lot of full commission brokers start out their relationships answering questions like these from a completely dishonest perspective. How should anyone trust you when the start of your relationship with them is basically built on lies and a lack of candor with your client? I guess you prefer to go back to stupid clients who can't tell when you're lying to them... please be my guest.

  • Member since 2018 · 27 posts · 10 votes
    4y

    @Jon D.

    Hey Jon. I was reading through everyone's comments and this entire discussion seems to have veered into many other topics so let me give you an outside point of view.

    I'm currently living North of Minneapolis in a small town called Princeton. I'm currently working on getting my master's electrician license (test on the 19th) and also working on getting my real estate license (passed state and national exam, need to finish course 2 and 3) and I have learned a LOT from my somewhat unique position. Unique as In I am unable to advertise or talk about the fact that I will be a licensed agent and own an electrician company because of laws claiming it gives me an unfair advantage. On top of this I have been listening to all the podcasts on real estate, money and business on this platform, I read many forum posts and have followed many of the top producing agents and investors. The reason I say all this is I look at it many points of view. Oren Klaff would put someone in my situation into a place of potential and power of choice and work thisintonegotiation tactics. Dale Carnegie on the other hand would find a way to put his client first at any cost because he knows that means a higher chance of repeat business. Me personally being someone is in the process of starting their own company and dreams of starting their own brokerage looks at this situation and thinks it's just more trouble than it's worth. Nothing bad to say about any way anyone wants to do things, just that different people have different opinions, goals and limits of what they're willing to take on. If it's a good deal then work it out, but it sounds like something is missing because if they just found out it's prone to bad flooding then that either should have been disclosed to you immediately (to the best of my course 1 knowledge) or if they just found out that should drop the price without question.

    I also seen some talk about hourly rates and agent 1 does the exact same thing as agent 2 and it's all 6/3% commission no matter what so why not negotiate the price down if it's closed so fast? That answer is simple; you also owe me for the years it took me to learn how to complete the job as fast as I did, not only for the time it took to complete the job. There's no secret hidden prices in real estate agents commission, you can negotiate a little, maybe, but it's not like it's going to be a multiple thousand dollars difference on a $200k home. Any business owner at all knows that there is a lot more cost that goes into getting a job done then just simply materials and labor. Same goes for real estate agents. Brokerages have brokers fees, lawyers fees, listing fees, utilities, taxes for the company, themselves and their employees if they have one or 2, rent on their office, drive time, gas, internet, phone, like 3 different types of insurance and I'm sure there's more. Bottom line is an brokerage is hired by someone to sell their house period. It's a bid, not an hourly rate. If they get it done faster then that should be celebrated. If I hire someone to paint my house and they said it would take a week but got Done in 2 days I Don't get a 60% discount. Think about this if you owned your own company or even an hourly wage earner. If you have a deadline on when something needs to get Done and you get Done early do you get the rest of the day off paid or if you were the company owner are you going to pay your employee to go home? It's all dependent on how your pay is negotiated, point being made 3/6%.

    I wish you good luck on your quest to find an agent, but just being honest as I'm not even in the field yet, what you're asking for sounds more complicated than I would be comfortable with, especially with the way the market is, probably best to look for someone who has much more experience, but also keep in mind someone who has much more experience might also not want to entertain that idea either if they already have a funnel full of clients.

  • Real Estate Agent · St George, UT · Member since 2019 · 56 posts · 30 votes
    4y

    Sounds like the OP is fixed on the idea that his hourly proposal should be accepted by all agents and is getting defensive when they want to defend their market pay rate. Unfortunately by proposing an hourly rate, you will immediately filter out most of realtors worth their salt. They're more likely to understand business and opportunity cost.

    Try asking an accountant for a discount because you've done your own taxes before

    Try asking a lawyer for a discount because you majored in political science

    Try asking a dentist for a discount because you brush your teeth every day

    Try asking the grocery clerk to rebate you a percentage because you collected all your own groceries and they didn't even ask how your day was

    Realtors are professionals that have an established pay rate. Finding ones that are quick to negotiate this are likely desperate or new. The hard part is finding the ones that are worth it. Sounds like you just haven't had an experience yet where a realtor has saved your butt or out-done themselves, so you question their pay structure

  • Member since 2019 · 30 posts · 10 votes
    4y

    Let me give you an analogy:
    -High priced attorneys just charge $350-$800 an hour to compensate them for the training, overhead costs, etc. and not all of it goes into their pocket either hence why its high enough to cover those extra items.

    I feel like the structure is prone to incentivize agents to not be honest with me about many things in the transaction; my problem isn't with how much they make (I actually believe most realtors don't make enough and the market is oversaturated with them largely because of how many realtors will cart around time wasters for no money). Others may have a different opinion as me, but to the extent you can sympathize at all with my view that the structure is horribly conflicted relative to other options... me posting about trying to find this is a perfectly legitimate thing for this forum. Furthermore, an endless parade of realtors basically engaging in extreme straw men or outright lies to try to act like this isn't a legitimate thing to seek out is just even more evidence why this should be talked about and considered.

    A very dishonest industry proving again why its dishonest post by post (not that it doesn't deserve high income).

  • Member since 2019 · 30 posts · 10 votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Alexander Murillo:

    Sounds like the OP is fixed on the idea that his hourly proposal should be accepted by all agents and is getting defensive when they want to defend their market pay rate. Unfortunately by proposing an hourly rate, you will immediately filter out most of realtors worth their salt. They're more likely to understand business and opportunity cost.

    Try asking an accountant for a discount because you've done your own taxes before

    Try asking a lawyer for a discount because you majored in political science

    Try asking a dentist for a discount because you brush your teeth every day

    Try asking the grocery clerk to rebate you a percentage because you collected all your own groceries and they didn't even ask how your day was

    Realtors are professionals that have an established pay rate. Finding ones that are quick to negotiate this are likely desperate or new. The hard part is finding the ones that are worth it. Sounds like you just haven't had an experience yet where a realtor has saved your butt or out-done themselves, so you question their pay structure

     Now I'm proposing that all realtors do this, eh? Are you always this dishonest and loaded with straw men with your clients?

    Clearly I'm suggesting no such thing. Also clearly it would never be a large part of the market because most regular buyers would refuse to pay for showings if there were any realtors out there willing to do showings for a commission percentage so the commission model would never die for that reason.

    That said, its legitimate for there to be a small market of time based payment realtors for those who are after that (and are willing to pay high enough hourly rates for those people to make a great living to do it).

    Practically all of the options you listed have structures of fixed fee, retainer, contingency, and time based payment. I'm not asking for them for a discount when I choose 1 payment type over another.

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:

    I normally get the full 'rebate' in a discounted PP buying solo, but this hot market has LAs requiring I have an agent to get on the viewing list, usually a 15 or 20 minute window day 2. 

    So I retain an agent that is also my tenant. I have 2. May as well keep it in-house. My typical discount went from $8,000 to $2500 last time.

    She accompanied us at the viewing and our offer was successful.  $9k isn't bad for a few hours work. It should help her qualify to buy the rental of ours she has a lease option on. 

    The commission structure is not commensurate with effort or expertise.  We pay the same whether our representation is good, bad or indifferent.   We pay the same % whether the investment is $300k or $2M. We pay the same whether they carted us around for 6 months or attended 1 viewing with us. 

    With less effort and higher asset prices, why are commissions still 3/6%? SMH

    commissions in many markets are coming down Steve..  in PDX the day of the 6% listing is long gone its 4 to 5 now. 

    ON my new construction I offer a dollar amount.. you do not have to pay a %  so I figure out what dollar amount I want to pay and offer that.  It seems in my market as long as its about 10k realtors still show our product..  Plus so many realtors and or the public cant do basic math so they dont bother to figure out what 10k is as a % of the listing price..  they just know they are getting a nice check !!  

    the other big box builders are doing this too.. 5k flat fee.. some are paying NOTHING.. which they prefer because they want to work with the buyers direct.. in new construction its a ton of work when you have pre sales for owner occ..   

     I like your dollar commission model, Jay. 

    I can see how 5% is more of a norm now.  That's what I paid on my last listed rental house sale.  

    On my $1.2M commercial MF sale I am paying 3% ($35k) but he is more of a transactional agent and his commission was added to the PP. He provided me a market analysis but is also bringing the buyer and it's not on the MLS.

    He created this from scratch, finding me with direct mail from Seattle.  He's creative and informed.  I will invite him to BP. 

    I would still like to see more disruption in the antiquated way agents/realtors are compensated, like the way sellers have to pay for a buyers' agent (to essentially negotiate against them) but I am so DIY, it really doesn't impact my business like most. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Jon D.:
    Originally posted by @Alexander Murillo:

    Sounds like the OP is fixed on the idea that his hourly proposal should be accepted by all agents and is getting defensive when they want to defend their market pay rate. Unfortunately by proposing an hourly rate, you will immediately filter out most of realtors worth their salt. They're more likely to understand business and opportunity cost.

    Try asking an accountant for a discount because you've done your own taxes before

    Try asking a lawyer for a discount because you majored in political science

    Try asking a dentist for a discount because you brush your teeth every day

    Try asking the grocery clerk to rebate you a percentage because you collected all your own groceries and they didn't even ask how your day was

    Realtors are professionals that have an established pay rate. Finding ones that are quick to negotiate this are likely desperate or new. The hard part is finding the ones that are worth it. Sounds like you just haven't had an experience yet where a realtor has saved your butt or out-done themselves, so you question their pay structure

     Now I'm proposing that all realtors do this, eh? Are you always this dishonest and loaded with straw men with your clients?

    Clearly I'm suggesting no such thing. Also clearly it would never be a large part of the market because most regular buyers would refuse to pay for showings if there were any realtors out there willing to do showings for a commission percentage so the commission model would never die for that reason.

    That said, its legitimate for there to be a small market of time based payment realtors for those who are after that (and are willing to pay high enough hourly rates for those people to make a great living to do it).

    Practically all of the options you listed have structures of fixed fee, retainer, contingency, and time based payment. I'm not asking for them for a discount when I choose 1 payment type over another.

    there are real estate consultants that charge by the hour they are just not in the SFR or small MF space.. Tend to be more in bigger projects and they will have a fix based fee retainer agreement.. Like for X I will charge 10k that type of thing..

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:

    I normally get the full 'rebate' in a discounted PP buying solo, but this hot market has LAs requiring I have an agent to get on the viewing list, usually a 15 or 20 minute window day 2. 

    So I retain an agent that is also my tenant. I have 2. May as well keep it in-house. My typical discount went from $8,000 to $2500 last time.

    She accompanied us at the viewing and our offer was successful.  $9k isn't bad for a few hours work. It should help her qualify to buy the rental of ours she has a lease option on. 

    The commission structure is not commensurate with effort or expertise.  We pay the same whether our representation is good, bad or indifferent.   We pay the same % whether the investment is $300k or $2M. We pay the same whether they carted us around for 6 months or attended 1 viewing with us. 

    With less effort and higher asset prices, why are commissions still 3/6%? SMH

    commissions in many markets are coming down Steve..  in PDX the day of the 6% listing is long gone its 4 to 5 now. 

    ON my new construction I offer a dollar amount.. you do not have to pay a %  so I figure out what dollar amount I want to pay and offer that.  It seems in my market as long as its about 10k realtors still show our product..  Plus so many realtors and or the public cant do basic math so they dont bother to figure out what 10k is as a % of the listing price..  they just know they are getting a nice check !!  

    the other big box builders are doing this too.. 5k flat fee.. some are paying NOTHING.. which they prefer because they want to work with the buyers direct.. in new construction its a ton of work when you have pre sales for owner occ..   

     I like your dollar commission model, Jay. 

    I can see how 5% is more of a norm now.  That's what I paid on my last listed rental house sale.  

    On my $1.2M commercial MF sale I am paying 3% ($35k) but he is more of a transactional agent and his commission was added to the PP. He provided me a market analysis but is also bringing the buyer and it's not on the MLS.

    He created this from scratch, finding me with direct mail from Seattle.  He's creative and informed.  I will invite him to BP. 

    I would still like to see more disruption in the antiquated way agents/realtors are compensated, like the way sellers have to pay for a buyers' agent (to essentially negotiate against them) but I am so DIY, it really doesn't impact my business like most. 

     Look at it from a slightly different angle and its actually the buyer paying the listing agent to negotiate against them. Every single dime in the transaction comes from the buyer, and not the seller. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 53 posts · 48 votes
    4y

    @Alexander Murillo "Unfortunately by proposing an hourly rate, you will immediately filter out most of realtors worth their salt. They're more likely to understand business and opportunity cost."

    How did you come to that conclusion? Do you think no attorney is worth their salt because they charge an hourly fee? How is real estate any different?

    Jon is not asking for a discount. He just wants to pay for what he's getting.

  • Real Estate Agent · St George, UT · Member since 2019 · 56 posts · 30 votes
    4y

    @Jon D. Point proven! Like I said you're looking for new agents or agents who do less than 10 deals a year in low price markets. Find a way to filter those out in your market and you might find some interest. All the top-producing agents I know wouldn't negotiate their commission structure MAYBE until you became a repeat client and assuming you weren't a pain in the butt to work with during the first deal

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:

    I normally get the full 'rebate' in a discounted PP buying solo, but this hot market has LAs requiring I have an agent to get on the viewing list, usually a 15 or 20 minute window day 2. 

    So I retain an agent that is also my tenant. I have 2. May as well keep it in-house. My typical discount went from $8,000 to $2500 last time.

    She accompanied us at the viewing and our offer was successful.  $9k isn't bad for a few hours work. It should help her qualify to buy the rental of ours she has a lease option on. 

    The commission structure is not commensurate with effort or expertise.  We pay the same whether our representation is good, bad or indifferent.   We pay the same % whether the investment is $300k or $2M. We pay the same whether they carted us around for 6 months or attended 1 viewing with us. 

    With less effort and higher asset prices, why are commissions still 3/6%? SMH

    commissions in many markets are coming down Steve..  in PDX the day of the 6% listing is long gone its 4 to 5 now. 

    ON my new construction I offer a dollar amount.. you do not have to pay a %  so I figure out what dollar amount I want to pay and offer that.  It seems in my market as long as its about 10k realtors still show our product..  Plus so many realtors and or the public cant do basic math so they dont bother to figure out what 10k is as a % of the listing price..  they just know they are getting a nice check !!  

    the other big box builders are doing this too.. 5k flat fee.. some are paying NOTHING.. which they prefer because they want to work with the buyers direct.. in new construction its a ton of work when you have pre sales for owner occ..   

     I like your dollar commission model, Jay. 

    I can see how 5% is more of a norm now.  That's what I paid on my last listed rental house sale.  

    On my $1.2M commercial MF sale I am paying 3% ($35k) but he is more of a transactional agent and his commission was added to the PP. He provided me a market analysis but is also bringing the buyer and it's not on the MLS.

    He created this from scratch, finding me with direct mail from Seattle.  He's creative and informed.  I will invite him to BP. 

    I would still like to see more disruption in the antiquated way agents/realtors are compensated, like the way sellers have to pay for a buyers' agent (to essentially negotiate against them) but I am so DIY, it really doesn't impact my business like most. 

    Commercial brokers are a different animal than your average SFR owner occ agent which of course is 95% of the agents out there.

    Commercial Brokers act and work more like Stock brokers of old.. they hammer the phones and direct mail .  anyone who owns a decent MF has probably been approached via phone or mail by commercial brokers.. there is just less of that inventory.   Real Estate agent one oh one is commissions are negotiable they are not fixed you can pay them anyway you like to .

    ONe point raised above though is agents that work for big box brokers usually don't have the freedom to customize their fee structure. 

    My wife works for a set fee broker NO SPLITS  this is very common on the west coast at least for top producing agents beginner or low income agents might still be on a split.. But any top producing agent in our market pays a flat fee and then gets 100% of their commish minus a minor transaction fee which might be 200 bucks or so and then what ever they pay their transaction coordinator ( which is not mandatory to use one)  So MIss Lori every January cuts one check to the broker and her fee split is done for that year..  Or for me whom I am my own sole practitioner broker I dont pay anyone and I can do anything I like and have been this way for 40 years Other than I owned 3 brokerages over the years. 

    There is no question though on the West coast there is price compression on Real Estate fee's.  Motivated sellers may pay more though.

    I had a tough to sell home one time I bought it at foreclosure and did not realize there was a toxic dump down the hill LOL.. even though it was on 40 acres and 1k from the home and well and down hill from it was just tough to sell and it was just under a million dollar prop.

    after sale fails about 4 times..  I put the BAC  this is the amount you pay the other broker.. I put it at 10% and made a big deal in the private remarks  Hey agent make 80k selling this one home in your pocket.. Sold it in about 2 weeks  I still did fine as it was a courthouse steps prop I bought 

  • Joe S.Pro Member
    Investor · San Antonio · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Jon D.:

    I'm sure I'm not alone in being frustrated with realtors. My most recent experience I knew exactly what property I was after (like most investors its just a numbers game) and figured it would be a quick and easy purchase (depressed market no other bidders). My realtor didn't have to do a bunch of showings or anything so I engaged him in a rebating deal. I offered him a fixed minimum and if it something gets discovered as a time sink he can take an hourly minimum. He didn't want that and instead countered that he'd just rebate half and I accepted. 

    Well a major item was discovered in inspection, etc. (unit has had an issue with flooding and likely fix is extremely expensive). Sure enough because realtor commission structure basically incentivizes him into working against me (I effectively get stuck with 2 sellers agents instead of 1 for me) and keeps trying to downplay it in order to get a deal done. I have to turn to a client who I know buys property likely with these issues and he tells me to probably run from this. I actually decide to make a generous offer reflecting some of the cost to fix, seller scoffs, and my buyers agent acts like a wounded puppy to make me feel bad for wanting to revise my offer in any way over a place that has an expensive flooding problem. Also if you think I just have a "bad realtor", I've met many and he's probably one of the nicer more reasonable ones, but I do feel like the realtor commission incentives even make a good realtor at least a little difficult to work with. Even if something like is fixable with a better commissioned realtor the problem is that I wouldn't know them out of the gate so its not like I could actually trust them until after a few transactions they proved they weren't just always very biased into me saying yes on a deal (regardless of whether its good deal or not).


    Is it really too much to ask for letting a realtor take a high hourly rate out of the commission and rebate the rest? In the low chance a deal doesn't go through I'll just roll the hours spent on that one into the next one and the rebate to me on that one shrinks? Its really weird that realtors will agree to like $50-100 from another realtor to help do a showing while one of them is on vacation, but offer them a much higher hourly rate in a rebating deal and so many act like I'm destroying their industry.


    I'm a business owner who pays current staff very generously. I also frequently bonus/tip extra when I know someone has given me more useful information than I'd expect or for putting in extra effort. I prefer to put much of my surplus earnings into investment real estate over the years and looking for a long term realtor that has a decent head on their shoulders and while I think all pay structures have their pro's and con's... I'd prefer much less conflicted than the current set up. Note: I'd also rather not get my own license... I am rather busy and I am willing to pay well to outsource certain items.

    Any suggestions on finding a realtor that would agree to something like this is appreciated. If you are a realtor in the MN (Twin Cities) market and you're open to a relationship like this feel free to private message me.

    Maybe I missed it, but what price range house are you looking for? On your lower priced houses you really want your agent to get compensated enough to make it worth their time. 

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:

     I do realize this, Russell.  Unfortunately it took a lawsuit to get agents to stop telling buyers their services are free. 

    I usually sell FSBO a la carte. If you bring an agent in, just add their fee to your offer. I'm glad when they do, less work for me, but at least the buyers realize their agent isn't free.

  • Matthew Irish-JonesBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    @Jon D. It’s a fair point and one I often think about as an investor myself and why I got into the business. I always felt agents walked through a place, asked me if what I wanted to make an offer at, then got upset when I wanted a better price or didn’t want to purchase.

    I run an investor focused brokerage with property management services and a construction division.

    Our agents are trained to create a pro forma for clients based on internal property management data. The pro forma created if an offer is accepted and goes to closing is the basis of our property management relationship. We pull the rental comps, maintenance budget, and CapEx from that report to set up budgets, etc. if there is a rehab needed we pull in a project manager and offer a hard quote.

    We are a small business and I personally manage the agents and pay extra special attention to these reports. Inflated rents, downplaying Maintenance, under quoting projects, can sell more homes but make our company look bad.

    Because we are providing more than one service we have more skin in the game than most agents and I would fire an agent if I found numbers that were not substantiated by good comps.

    We need a certain kind of agent though because sometimes doing the right thing for a client means making less money. Our model protects clients from some of this but essentially agents make money from selling homes. So the incentive on a big deal can make an agent do or say something that is more in their interest than in the clients interest.

    I know I’m not solving your problem but your point is well taken and something we talk about openly on our company at pretty much every meeting.

    Irish Jones Realty4.947 Reviews
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  • Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    @Jon D.

    If I was your realtor and you approached me with your offer, I would no longer be your realtor.

  • Accountant · MI · Member since 2018 · 18 posts · 13 votes
    4y

    Ultimately there is going to be resistance to change because you are asking agents to go from a known payout (their commission) to an unknown based on the number of hours. 

    It should likely never had been a commissioned based process because it encourages tire kickers rather than buyers. Essentially the transaction that is closing is paying for that transaction and the tire kickers. 

    I have been surprised that the fee for listing idea has not taken off more because it substantially saves money. I have worked with 5 agents on various deals but only one has had any value that I have seen. The problem is the value he provided was questionably unethical so not worth my reputation dealing with him.

  • Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 53 posts · 48 votes
    4y

    @Rob Pollock, "Ultimately there is going to be resistance to change because you are asking agents to go from a known payout (their commission) to an unknown based on the number of hours." Actually you are asking them to go from an unknown payout for their time to a known payout. It should be a no-brainer.

    @Matt M., "If I was your realtor and you approached me with your offer, I would no longer be your realtor." If he offered you $1000/ hour you wouldn't take the deal?

  • Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    @Gary Lucido

    Seriously? This guy wasn’t offering $1000/hour. 

  • Marc RiceBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Columbus Cleveland Dayton, OH · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    @Jon D.

    Don’t. You could tell them you’ll pay them a bonus though if they negotiate the price down. They work for you. Incentive them if you don’t trust them. It’s still foolish to think they really don’t represent you.

    Marc Rice | Investor Friendly Agent at Reafco Tailwind Team574 Reviews
  • Jordan MoorheadBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    4y

    @Jon D. talk to @Adam Tafel if you want a great Realtor in MSP! He's not an hourly agent but he crushes it with investors and will never steer you in the wrong direction

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