Selling a rental property owned less than a year

Selling a rental property owned less than a year

Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2014 · 22 posts · 10 votes

Hi! I'm a new member trying to decide whether to sell a rental property and would appreciate any opinions.

The property is a SFR in San Francisco. It has 2/1 upstairs in the main house and 2/1 downstairs as an illegal in-law unit at the ground level. We purchased it last fall for $605K and the whole house was rented at $3000/month. The goal for purchasing the house was to move into it when we retire and live for free on the income from the in-law. (We thought we would be able to rent the in-law to tourists, ala airbnb, but SF has shut down that option.)

SF just approved legislation to allow in-law units to be legalized, but the actual process to follow through the building department has not been defined yet. All the tenants just moved out, so we need to decide whether to re-rent it or sell it.

Option 1: Rent out the top half and try to legalize the in-law

Since the in-law is illegal, we don't want to rent it out to 2 different tenants. Our lawyer already explained to us that tenants in an illegal unit can successfully sue you for all the illegal rent they've paid you. Your neighbors can turn you in to SF who will make you strip the illegal unit down to the studs (if the space was constructed without permits) plus paying huge fines for doing construction without a permit. The fines apply even if you bought the house that way.

The previous owner had rented the whole house to a master tenant who had in turn sublet the in-law to another family (not allowed in the lease by the way). We think we could rent out the 2/1 main house for $2500/month and leave the in-law empty while we wait for the city to finalize the process to legalize in-law units. Because the in-law was built with permits, except for the separate entrance and kitchen (added after the inspection), we think it's likely that it would be approved as a legal unit.

One problem with this plan is that we can't cover our mortgage + property tax ($2700) with the rent from the top half alone. We don't know when we could start renting the in-law, so we could lose money for a long time. Another issue is that if I legalize the in-law, the property will be permanently under rent control. I'm okay with that except that it will make it nearly impossible to get the tenants out if I need to sell it later.

Option 2: Remove the in-law kitchen and rent out the whole house

Even though the house is set up as 2 units with 2 front doors, 2 back doors, 2 kitchens, I could remove the lower kitchen and rent the whole house to one master tenant with roomates. I think we could get around $3200 for the house under this arrangement.

This plan would keep us from losing money in the short term, but we could get quite a bit more per month if we wait to rent it as 2 units. One problem is that it would be so easy for the master tenant to put a stove back in the in-law and sublet it again without our approval. (The master tenant who just moved out was subletting the in-law for $1700 despite the lease agreement.)

Option 3: Sell

The legal trickiness of renting this property plus the pro-tenant laws in SF make us think that we made a mistake in buying it. We don't have enough income to qualify for a third mortgage, but we could sell to get our downpayment money back and buy a true duplex or triplex in the East Bay for about the same price. Since we haven't owned it more than a year, we don't qualify for a 1031 exchange. The market is very hot in SF right now, so we think we would get all our money back but not make any real profit after the real estate agents took their cut. Does 1031 even matter if you're just breaking even on the sale?

Any opinions would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Elizabeth

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Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
12y
Originally posted by @Elizabeth O.:

... Since we haven't owned it more than a year, we don't qualify for a 1031 exchange. The market is very hot in SF right now, so we think we would get all our money back but not make any real profit after the real estate agents took their cut. Does 1031 even matter if you're just breaking even on the sale?

...

This is a case where there will be little to no capital gains realized upon sale (IMO after paying closing costs you could see a net loss), so there is no reason to consider a 1031 exchange. A 1031 exchange becomes worthwhile when there are significant capital gains that will be realized at sale, so deferring the tax bill via 1031 makes sense then. I don't believe the short initial hold period here is a real factor in whether this would be eligible for 1031 exchange - I believe since it was rented that the replacement property being held as a rental for at least a year would have been enough to establish a legit exchange; @Bill Exeter would be able to tell us with better certainty.

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  • Real Estate Professional · San Francisco-East bay, CA · Member since 2013 · 340 posts · 50 votes
    12y

    Hi, Being SF, you have not mentioned the sq ft size of the house. Since the house was rented at 3K, I believe you should be able to rent it at that price. Again I don't know which part of SF is this property in, but if it was me, I would try to hold onto it.

    Also do you know how soon or late will the city take to allow and permit in-law units to be legalized. This info would be of help to make a decision, I think.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Elizabeth O.:

    ... Since we haven't owned it more than a year, we don't qualify for a 1031 exchange. The market is very hot in SF right now, so we think we would get all our money back but not make any real profit after the real estate agents took their cut. Does 1031 even matter if you're just breaking even on the sale?

    ...

    This is a case where there will be little to no capital gains realized upon sale (IMO after paying closing costs you could see a net loss), so there is no reason to consider a 1031 exchange. A 1031 exchange becomes worthwhile when there are significant capital gains that will be realized at sale, so deferring the tax bill via 1031 makes sense then. I don't believe the short initial hold period here is a real factor in whether this would be eligible for 1031 exchange - I believe since it was rented that the replacement property being held as a rental for at least a year would have been enough to establish a legit exchange; @Bill Exeter would be able to tell us with better certainty.

  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2014 · 22 posts · 10 votes
    12y

    Hi Naveen!

    The property is in Visitacion Valley and records for the house say 1,600 sq ft. Both units have 2 BR/1 BA but the upstairs living space is larger since the downstairs space includes the garage.

    The department of building inspections has put up forms on their website for "Legalization of Dwelling Units Installed Without a Permit" but I can't find anyone who has tried to do it, so I don't know how long it takes. I know I need an inspector to come review the unit and he will say the kitchen has to be removed and re-done with permits. The FAQ doesn't say whether neighborhood notification, discretionary review sessions or public hearings are part of the process. If so, it could take months. Since we would be some of the first people to use this process, I'd give it 6 months to get through it.

    Another interesting point on the legalization FAQ is that the process is not guaranteed to be available after one year, so we would need to do it now if we're interested.

  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2014 · 22 posts · 10 votes
    12y

    Hi Steve,

    Thank you for your input - I didn't think the 1031 was too important here. You're right, we could even lose money. The neighborhood is pretty small and stable and there aren't a lot of comps. Our realtor thinks we'd make up his fees just due to the fact that the whole house is empty vs. having a bunch of illegal tenants when we bought it.

  • Jean BolgerPro Member
    Aurora, CO · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    Do you have to actually remove the kitchen to rent out the whole house? Can't you just say "hey, extra kitchen! How convenient at Thanksgiving..." 

    Then you'd have the option of legalizing the 2nd unit at a future time perhaps

  • J. MartinPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Elizabeth O. ,

    I'm not surprised to hear the former tenant leased the downstairs unit. It's not uncommon for landlords to write that it cannot be rented out in the lease, then charge more to the master tenant with a wink and a "I won't be inspecting the unit," to avoid any knowledge of the unit being leased illegally on the part of the landlord..

    Either way, you're telling me you can't get $2/ft per month in rents in Vis Valley? @1,600 sq ft for the public records, that should already be over $3k/mo. I'm getting about $1.50/ft in East Oakland on leases I signed in the past 3 days!!! (on smaller 2br units..) And with the kitchen out, and even used as storage or an office, that is very valuable! I haven't seen the house, but I cannot believe the rents are that low unless the place is TOTALLY torn up! Have you done many rental comps recently? Am I crazy here!? Maybe I should come lease up and manage this property for you!

    SF prices are healthy right now if you choose to sell, but you could unlock A LOT of value if you get the illegal unit permitted. You also need to make the distinction between "just cause" evictions (to remove someone from a unit), and rent control. The former may apply in either case, even if the latter does not..

    I highly recommend you touch base with @Amit M. before you sell it. I know he's busy on a project in SF. But maybe he can give you some advice, or throw out an offer for you.. He's an SF local.. Amit, who's further off on our rent rates here? I'm no SF expert, but a house in Visitation Valley getting close to the same $/ft as E Oakland!? No way! @Account Closed ?

  • Real Estate Investor · Falls Church, VA · Member since 2013 · 23 posts · 6 votes
    12y

    Hi Elizabeth-

    It may be worth consulting a real estate attorney in order to get the in-law unit correctly permitted. I would try to get the unit permitted before throwing all of your equity away. You could always try calling the department to see if they have any information about how long the process will take. I hope you get to keep it!

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    Just a thought, rent the unrecorded unit for $1200. Rent the main for $2500.

    @ 1200 you will be able to pick that best fit tenant with the 1000s responses you get. The grad student or whoever who will not likely jeopardize the low rent or create any residential issues. 

    thanks,

    Matt

  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2014 · 22 posts · 10 votes
    12y

    @Jean Bolger - our lawyer told us that the presence of the 2nd kitchen triggers rent control. To rent without rent control in SF, it either has to be a SFR (which this is clearly a 2 unit - there is no interior access from one unit to another) or the second unit can house roommates who do not have their own kitchen. I wish the landlord-tenant relationships here weren't so complicated!

    @J. Martin - I do think we can get $2/ft. My estimate of $3200/month for the whole 1600 sq ft is based on current craigslist for Vis Valley 3BR/2BA. The $2500/month I was estimating for the top unit only ~1000 sq ft. I think we could get $1700/month for the lower unit because that's what the master tenant was getting. So if we wait to legalize the lower unit, we could probably get $4200/month total.

    So, do you guys think $4200 rent controlled income is better than $3200 non-rent controlled? It sounds like a silly question, but the last three annual increases were 0.1%, 0.5%, and the most recent was 1.9%. Is $1000/month extra now worth it? We were able to encourage the tenants to move out of the house we live in now but just raising the rent to market level. It seems like I'd be giving up my last bit of leverage.

    @Account Closed - I guess we didn't think we'd give up any equity to sell it. If we bought it for $605K and could sell it for $670K, which our realtor thinks is reasonable for that neighborhood, we should be able to pay all the fees without losing any equity. We only got it for a good price because it had the illegal tenant situation. Now that it's empty, it's tempting to sell it and buy something that doesn't need to be walked through an unknown legalization process. Maybe I'm just being lazy and need to hear everyone say keep it!

    @Matt R. - it's tempting to rent out the in-law below market to students - that's what most of my friends do with their illegal units - the other few rent theirs out on airbnb to tourists. However, our lawyer scared us off any illegal rent paths already. We're determined to come up with a legal solution.

    Thanks for all the input!!

    Elizabeth

  • J. MartinPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Elizabeth O. , sorry about the confusion over what portion of sq footage was for what..

    If you had the funds to carry the mortgage, go through permitting, then renovate both units, paint exterior, and deliver vacant and move-in ready to a retail buyer, I think you could hit it out of the park. But that a lot of time, effort, energy, and some risk.. Although I think you'd make out well either way holding onto it..

    If you get approval, renovate, and sell, the 2 units would be attractive to multi-generational families (LOTS in SF & Bay - w/ $$$$), buyers looking for an extra unit to help them with the big mortgage (not uncommon in SF as there are fewer SFH houses & many have other "in-law" they rent out.), or even SF investors just looking for a property to cover the PITI as they wait for appreciation.. (how big is the lot?)

    What do you think a fully renovated property delivered in that condition in a couple years could fetch? I could only speculate..

    What is your risk tolerance? Tolerance for time, energy, frustration going through the process? Cash reserves and access to capital you need?

    $400/sq ft = $640K
    $500/sq ft = $800K
    $600/sq ft = $960K
    $700/sq ft = $1.1MM

    Could you get $3/ft, w/ a legal unit and renovated beautifully?
    If it's bringing in $4,800/mo total, wouldn't that about cover about a $750K mortgage on a $1MM purchase price?

    I don't know Vis Valley as well as you do obviously. But just some food for thought..
    I'm really interested to hear what @Amit M. has to say..

  • Bill ExeterBusiness Member
    1031 Exchange Qualified Intermediary · San Diego, CA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Steve Babiak:
    Originally posted by @Elizabeth O.:

    ... Since we haven't owned it more than a year, we don't qualify for a 1031 exchange. The market is very hot in SF right now, so we think we would get all our money back but not make any real profit after the real estate agents took their cut. Does 1031 even matter if you're just breaking even on the sale?

    ...

    This is a case where there will be little to no capital gains realized upon sale (IMO after paying closing costs you could see a net loss), so there is no reason to consider a 1031 exchange. A 1031 exchange becomes worthwhile when there are significant capital gains that will be realized at sale, so deferring the tax bill via 1031 makes sense then. I don't believe the short initial hold period here is a real factor in whether this would be eligible for 1031 exchange - I believe since it was rented that the replacement property being held as a rental for at least a year would have been enough to establish a legit exchange; @Bill Exeter would be able to tell us with better certainty.

    I agree with Steve.  My initial guess would be that you do not have a capital gain or depreciation recapture to worry about.  You should verify this with your accountant just to make sure.  So, you probably do not need to worry about a 1031 Exchange. 

    The critical element with a 1031 Exchange is your intent to hold for investment and not the actual amount of time that you held the property.  I think you clearly had the intent to hold for investment (rental), but  things did not work out the way you had hoped.  So, if you find that you do have a taxable gain large enough to worry about, I think you would qualify for a 1031 Exchange.

    Exeter 1031 Exchange Services, LLC and Exeter Trust Company4.726 Reviews
  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    I agree to pursue the legal status as the added value would be substantial. The city also has some interest in creating more value in your property. 

    Thanks,

    Matt

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    From what I read online about the new in-law law, there is no penalty if you can't afford to make it proper. The city will check first before you spend. Certain criteria is being waived. They had to put under rent control so someone does not option into two condos. SF is really looking to bring these online now and there are 30,000 plus apparently. They want the affordable housing to stay. The Mission District even added a clause that you can add a 750 sqft in-law unit seperately today.

    thanks,

    Matt

  • Johnson H.Pro Member
    Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2010 · 910 posts · 889 votes
    12y

    Hi Elizabeth,

    I am a San Francisco native here and wanted to give my two cents. Almost all in-laws in San Francisco are illegal. You are correct that any time there is a stove on the first floor in law of a two story single family home in San Francisco, it would be an illegal unit most likely. However, I can tell you that many investors rent out their in law without an issue. I have heard of few troubling stories of bad tenants or bad neighbors snitching on the landlord for one reason or another and the stove is subsequently taken away and the kitchen ripped out. I think as long as you do the proper screening of your tenants and treat them fairly, you should have no issue with renting the in law. 

    I don't think this was mentioned but single family homes in San Francisco are not under rent control. However, if you have an illegal in law, both the second floor unit and the in law are then subjected to rent control. 

    I think option two would work best if you are fearful of renting out the illegal in law. In your lease contract, specifically state that it is illegal for the tenant to put in a stove and put restrictions on subletting. I would also add annual visitations to the property so that you can check and see if there are subletters living there without your knowledge and the tenants put back the illegal kitchen. Finally, limit the lease to only those that you are renting to. If your tenants breach your lease contract for any of the above reasons, it would be grounds for eviction. Note, I am not a lawyer so I would consult one for further details but this is what I would do in your situation.

  • Johnson H.Pro Member
    Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2010 · 910 posts · 889 votes
    12y

    Sorry Elizabeth, I just reread some of this thread and it looks like your lawyer already told you about the rent control for SFH. I think the rent controlled for $4200 is worth it compared to non rent controlled for $3200. The last two years, it seems like rent has increased 30% in most areas of SF. I don't think it can climb at that clip continually in the future. Also, when you want to move into the home, you can do an owner eviction for the top unit. Just my two cents!

  • Rental Property Investor · La Quinta, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 779 votes
    12y

    I think you are grossly under-estimating how much the whole house would rent for, with the kitchen removed, as one unit.  $3200 for a 4/2 in that area?  More like $4200, no?

  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2014 · 22 posts · 10 votes
    12y

    @Bill Exeter - Thank you for your reply. I didn't realize we could wait to decide on attempting a 1031 until after we see the actual gain.

    @J. Martin - Interesting ideas! I was only thinking of going through the legalization process if I were to hold it for long term because that's the way I want to do business. My realtor's opinion was that if we want to sell it now, it would be better to let the buyer decide whether to legalize, keep it illegal, or return it to single family layout. This neighborhood may prefer cash renters below the radar - that's what was going on with the tenants who just left. I had to request rent via check rather than cash.

    I have no idea what a legal 2 unit would sell for in Vis Valley. I can only find one recent comp and it was a fixer for $460K. The kitchens and lower bath of my rental were redone from scratch in 2006, so it doesn't need much work. The lot size is 2,495 sqft, which I think is pretty standard. I don't think I have enough comp data to know whether that time and money for legalization would pay off in sales price.

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @John D.:

    I think you are grossly under-estimating how much the whole house would rent for, with the kitchen removed, as one unit.  $3200 for a 4/2 in that area?  More like $4200, no?

    I'm wondering the same thing.  Where are there entire houses in SF that rent for only $3200? Especially 4BDRs? 

  • J. MartinPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Elizabeth O. ,

    I don't know the area well enough to comment on the After-repair value (ARV), but I was looking at some older comps in the area just now, and I was a bit surprised at how cheap some of the 2-4 unit properties are selling for.. but probably not good condition, and lots of rent-controlled renters way below market.. (on top of situations like yours..)

    Do you happen to know about how much work the fixer would have needed?
    A general rule is that flipper will usually buy at about 75% of ARV (can range from 65-80), minus the cost to repair. So if they're buying for example for $460K, there's $140K in repair costs. If that were the case, this would imply an approximate target sales price of $825K.. ($825K x 75% = $620K. $620K - $140K rehab = $480K purchase price.) These ratios vary, and in SF margins may be a bit lower, due to the higher sales prices, but just a general rule of thumb..

  • J. MartinPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Account Closed ,

    It sounds like Elizabeth is trying to keep it super-legal, and doesn't want anyone using the space as living space, in addition to as a separate unit. Is that correct Elizabeth? Even as an office or storage space as I mentioned above, there is still value in it.. But I was a bit surprised when I looked on CL at the local rental comps.. cheaper than I thought. So are the sold prices..

    Maybe I should be buying here.. hmmm...

  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2014 · 22 posts · 10 votes
    12y

    @Johnson H. - You're probably right that rents can't keep going up like they have been. The rent control probably won't make that much difference after this rent bubble passes.

    @John D. - A 4 BR in my neighborhood near Glen Park would go for $4K, but Vis Valley is a working class hood containing the city's largest public housing project. I have friends with kids who live there and think it's reasonably safe but it's not popular yet. My estimate of $3200 for the whole house with lower kitchen removed is based on the previous tenants' rent of $3000, current craigslist, and historical craigslist data which barely justifies asking $3200.

    Another question I have about renting it as one unit is how hard would it be to find tenants who want to rent it that way? I personally would find it very inconvenient (as a family with 3 kids) to go outside to get to the lower unit. My husband (and J Martin seems to back him up) thinks that there are enough multi-generational families who want completely separate spaces but that cook and eat together in one kitchen.

  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2014 · 22 posts · 10 votes
    12y

    @J. Martin - the $460K fixer I was using as a comp (770 DELTA St, 94134) appeared to have a tenant paying about $500/month, so I assume they've been there for 20 years and the place would need new kitchens, baths, floors, all windows, roof. Even if you remodel it, isn't the ARV limited by the rent controlled tenant? Since mine is empty, $825K might be a good guess at the value if I converted it to 2 unit.

    And yes, I want to keep everything straight up legal, but the downstairs can be used as living space as long as there is no second kitchen. This means the downstairs folks would probably be related to the upstairs folks.

    Thanks, Elizabeth

  • J. MartinPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    Honestly @Elizabeth O. ,

    I think you're selling your property short on the rents - depending on condition - if you are still OK with someone using it as living space, without a kitchen. If yours is in good shape, (then maybe better than a lot in your area..) I think you could get more with liveable space downstairs. Some might even prefer the semi-separated space. Of course, you know the hot plate comes next!. I didn't know your husband was talking about multi-generational families for it too. But yes, I agree.

    IMHO, and not to make it a (positive) stereotype, but I think lower-income communities tend to have closer families.. typical arrangement is the grandparents will stay in downstairs unit where they don't have to go up stairs, and they will take care of the kids while the parents are both out working..

    Would be better if the kitchen was downstairs though, in that case.. Either way, you might want to look into the rents more closely.

    HERE'S AN IDEA FOR YOU:

    Make a Craigslist (CL) ad,spell out exactly what you're looking for as far as criteria, the higher rent that would make you keep it like it is, w/ no kitchen, but all liveable space, any rules you have, and that nothing is negotiable, but you appreciate any serious, interested parties. Make a google voice number and put it on the ad, forwarded to your cell. If you get any calls, see if they are qualified and would really be interested.

    There's a free test, and you very well can just go ahead and rent it out if that's what makes sense for you (just pick a number you can't refuse. The CL ad is free :) If you choose to take the listing off the market for various personal reasons, thank everyone for their time and interest, respond to any applications and calls, and let them know you will keep their contact information should your circumstances change and you put it back on the market..

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Elizabeth O.:
    @Bill Exeter - Thank you for your reply. I didn't realize we could wait to decide on attempting a 1031 until after we see the actual gain.

    ...

    To qualify for a 1031 exchange, you cannot sell it without using a Qualified Intermediary. So you cannot see the actual gain first. You cannot touch any if the money on the sale of the relinquished property; all deposits go into escrow with the QI. But you can list for sale, get offers that establish an estimate of how much you will have in capital gain, and then involve the QI prior to closing on the sale. Then the time starts ticking for finding the replacement property and closing on the replacement. When you list for sale, you might want to have your listing state that the seller is considering a 1031 exchange.

  • Johnson H.Pro Member
    Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2010 · 910 posts · 889 votes
    12y

    @Elizabeth O. - depending on the condition of your property, I believe you can get a little bit above $3k in rent. I don't think folks here realize your home is in Visitation Valley, a working class area, not a trendy area like the Dog Patch or SoMa. 

    You'll be surprised at what people would rent base on the condition of the property. People in SF need space and bedrooms. I would put it up on CL like J said and just try your luck. You have nothing to lose if you don't get any prospective tenants. 

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