Selling a rental property owned less than a year

Selling a rental property owned less than a year

Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2014 · 22 posts · 10 votes

Hi! I'm a new member trying to decide whether to sell a rental property and would appreciate any opinions.

The property is a SFR in San Francisco. It has 2/1 upstairs in the main house and 2/1 downstairs as an illegal in-law unit at the ground level. We purchased it last fall for $605K and the whole house was rented at $3000/month. The goal for purchasing the house was to move into it when we retire and live for free on the income from the in-law. (We thought we would be able to rent the in-law to tourists, ala airbnb, but SF has shut down that option.)

SF just approved legislation to allow in-law units to be legalized, but the actual process to follow through the building department has not been defined yet. All the tenants just moved out, so we need to decide whether to re-rent it or sell it.

Option 1: Rent out the top half and try to legalize the in-law

Since the in-law is illegal, we don't want to rent it out to 2 different tenants. Our lawyer already explained to us that tenants in an illegal unit can successfully sue you for all the illegal rent they've paid you. Your neighbors can turn you in to SF who will make you strip the illegal unit down to the studs (if the space was constructed without permits) plus paying huge fines for doing construction without a permit. The fines apply even if you bought the house that way.

The previous owner had rented the whole house to a master tenant who had in turn sublet the in-law to another family (not allowed in the lease by the way). We think we could rent out the 2/1 main house for $2500/month and leave the in-law empty while we wait for the city to finalize the process to legalize in-law units. Because the in-law was built with permits, except for the separate entrance and kitchen (added after the inspection), we think it's likely that it would be approved as a legal unit.

One problem with this plan is that we can't cover our mortgage + property tax ($2700) with the rent from the top half alone. We don't know when we could start renting the in-law, so we could lose money for a long time. Another issue is that if I legalize the in-law, the property will be permanently under rent control. I'm okay with that except that it will make it nearly impossible to get the tenants out if I need to sell it later.

Option 2: Remove the in-law kitchen and rent out the whole house

Even though the house is set up as 2 units with 2 front doors, 2 back doors, 2 kitchens, I could remove the lower kitchen and rent the whole house to one master tenant with roomates. I think we could get around $3200 for the house under this arrangement.

This plan would keep us from losing money in the short term, but we could get quite a bit more per month if we wait to rent it as 2 units. One problem is that it would be so easy for the master tenant to put a stove back in the in-law and sublet it again without our approval. (The master tenant who just moved out was subletting the in-law for $1700 despite the lease agreement.)

Option 3: Sell

The legal trickiness of renting this property plus the pro-tenant laws in SF make us think that we made a mistake in buying it. We don't have enough income to qualify for a third mortgage, but we could sell to get our downpayment money back and buy a true duplex or triplex in the East Bay for about the same price. Since we haven't owned it more than a year, we don't qualify for a 1031 exchange. The market is very hot in SF right now, so we think we would get all our money back but not make any real profit after the real estate agents took their cut. Does 1031 even matter if you're just breaking even on the sale?

Any opinions would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Elizabeth

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Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
12y
Originally posted by @Elizabeth O.:

... Since we haven't owned it more than a year, we don't qualify for a 1031 exchange. The market is very hot in SF right now, so we think we would get all our money back but not make any real profit after the real estate agents took their cut. Does 1031 even matter if you're just breaking even on the sale?

...

This is a case where there will be little to no capital gains realized upon sale (IMO after paying closing costs you could see a net loss), so there is no reason to consider a 1031 exchange. A 1031 exchange becomes worthwhile when there are significant capital gains that will be realized at sale, so deferring the tax bill via 1031 makes sense then. I don't believe the short initial hold period here is a real factor in whether this would be eligible for 1031 exchange - I believe since it was rented that the replacement property being held as a rental for at least a year would have been enough to establish a legit exchange; @Bill Exeter would be able to tell us with better certainty.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Bill ExeterBusiness Member
    1031 Exchange Qualified Intermediary · San Diego, CA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Elizabeth O.:

    @Bill Exeter - Thank you for your reply. I didn't realize we could wait to decide on attempting a 1031 until after we see the actual gain.

    I just wanted to clarify my comments to make sure they were not misunderstood.  The 1031 Exchange must be in place prior to closing on the sale.  What I meant was that you need to meet with your accountant in advanced to determine what your taxable  gain will be and then decide whether you want/need to set-up a 1031 Exchange.  If you close on your sale without a 1031 Exchange in place, it will be taxable - good or bad - whether you want it to be or not.  Taxpayers should always meet with their tax advisor before completing/closing on any transaction to ensure they understand exactly what the tax consequences are going to be. 

    Exeter 1031 Exchange Services, LLC and Exeter Trust Company4.826 Reviews
  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2014 · 115 posts · 75 votes
    12y

    I am with @Johnson H. and @J. Martin on the rent price. I think you should be able to rent this out for $4,200 as a SFR. I wouldn't rent it out as separate units, as you said, it will then be rent-controlled.

    We just purchased a 3BR/1.5BA in Bayview and I listed it on CL for $3,500 and received LOTS of potential tenants.

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Elizabeth O.:

    Another question I have about renting it as one unit is how hard would it be to find tenants who want to rent it that way? I personally would find it very inconvenient (as a family with 3 kids) to go outside to get to the lower unit. My husband (and J Martin seems to back him up) thinks that there are enough multi-generational families who want completely separate spaces but that cook and eat together in one kitchen.

    One way to think about it is that a kitchenless 2BDR/1BA unit is similar to a studio or office on the property.  It just happens to be connected to the "main house". People need and want additional space, especially in markets where there isn't any.  Lots of families and roommates don't need to live in the same unit all the time but still want to "live together" and pool resources.

    I live in a 2BDR/1BA in Santa Barbara with a small 1 room studio (no bath) in the garden.  That room made all the difference when living in a 2/1 with kids.  First it was my teenage daughter's room, then it was the home office.  If it had a bathroom I could rent it for $150/night on airbnb.  :) I live in a  neighborhood with lots of small houses from the 1920s.  Any extra living space:  be it a shed, garage, studio whatever is worth money, as is the additional 2/1 living area on your property. Yours has heat and plumbing!  It might not be a multi-generational family that wants it, but rather a group of people who want to live in it the way it's configured.  Likely more than 2 adults, as you need more breadwinners to pay that kind of rent in a working class area.

    I say try to get max rent on it as an SFH, with 2 units, only one with kitchen. Thereby avoiding rent control. Remove the kitchen and find a tenant to take the way it is. The worst thing that can happen is that you sell a year from now, most likely with appreciaion on your side.

  • Real Estate Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 37 posts · 10 votes
    12y

    Sell and do not buy any rentals in high regulated rent controlled cities in CA :) 

  • J. MartinPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Account Closed ,

    The only twist here is that I believe the "just cause" eviction protections in SF will still apply to the property as an SFH, even if it is not under rent control (maybe someone can confirm that..). So when going to sell in SF, delivering a property vacant vs occupied is a big difference. Also complications if you want to remodel to get top dollar upon sale, b/c the unit is occupied then, and I don't think you can just tell them to leave.

    If the future purchaser were an owner-occupant, that would be a just-cause reason for eviction of the tenant, and there may be some payments to the tenants necessary, depending on circumstances. I think there is some mediation process if you jack up rents to get someone to move out.. but again, some SF folks might have to confirm that..

    But still different than delivering a move-in ready, remodeled,  vacant property to an owner occupant.

  • J. MartinPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Account Closed ,

    With all due respect, many of us in highly regulated markets have made good money, and expect to make plenty more, sometimes ironically supported by those same regulations. My returns on this deal I'm doing right now are w/ rent control on an additional unit that has another $700/mo in upside in rents. But bangs out great returns anyway, with great built-in equity to start.

    I'm sure there's great returns in Austin, as I've heard from many others there. To each their own. But for those who understand their markets well, there are always good returns to be made ;)

  • Real Estate Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 37 posts · 10 votes
    12y

    @J. Martin you are a better man than me :) your fourplex looks very nice...what's your cash on cash return?  I'm sure you will see some nice equity gains over the coming years as well. I have rentals in southern CA as well but given all the other great markets out there I can't ever seeing myself investing in CA with the pro tenant regulations, employment outlook and high taxes compared to TX.  Just don't want to play with rent control if I don't have to.  Good look sir and see you around. 

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    @Elizabeth O.  quite a lot of info here to digest!  Couple points off the bat- IF the home is remodeled nicely, you will most likely attract higher end tenants than blue collar multi-generational, so you'll have less people/wear and tear, higher incomes, and won't need to accept cash :~). Even in Visitation Valley (unless you're right across from that nasty ghetto project...and I can't imagine you buying that close.) But the area around Leland Ave is quaint and gentrifying nicely.  So depending on the homes condition, I'd first renovate/update that. Then rent that out to a nice family or a couple of professional roommates. 

    Next I'd go for legalizing the lower unit. I have a duplex with an in law that I want to legalize, but not now. So I've read the documents and info like you have. I'm quite sure that planning does not require a 3.11/neighborhood notification (which is the main clusterf*ck you want to avoid in SF :) Otherwise it's lots of little nudnicks from DBI, but bottom line, as long as you have decent ingress/egress, ceiling heights, etc I don't think the requirements are prohibitive. Best thing is that you can go and talk to DBI about your specific project and get feedback on what you will need for legalization, be for committing or even identifying the projects address. Yes, it'll take some doing, but bottom line is that you will add hundreds of thousands of dollars in value to the building. It will never have the equivalent value of a standard duplex, as you will not be able to condo convert, BUT you (or future owner) could always sell the lower unit as a valid TIC. And given how condo conversions are basically on deep freeze for next 10+ years, TIC is becoming the new condo here.

    If you have the financial resources, time and wherewithal, that is the value/equity build up play. This is especially true if the lower unit is/can be made to be actually decent and not a dark depressing POS (light, layout, decent size rooms, windows, etc.) It will probably never be as nice as the main house, but it should feel good for a basement apartment. So then the only negative is that both units are on rent control. I'd just be very selective with the tenants I choose. But you need to offer a nice renovated unit to get the best tenants. You'll capture good rents that way too, and will probably be able to engineer moving into the main house in the future, in between tenancies or with a buy out. 

    I also like @J. Martin  has a link below his name/signature in his post above. 

    Anyways that's my 2c.  Good luck!

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @J. Martin:

    @Account Closed ,

    The only twist here is that I believe the "just cause" eviction protections in SF will still apply to the property as an SFH, even if it is not under rent control (maybe someone can confirm that..). So when going to sell in SF, delivering a property vacant vs occupied is a big difference. Also complications if you want to remodel to get top dollar upon sale, b/c the unit is occupied then, and I don't think you can just tell them to leave.

    If the future purchaser were an owner-occupant, that would be a just-cause reason for eviction of the tenant, and there may be some payments to the tenants necessary, depending on circumstances. I think there is some mediation process if you jack up rents to get someone to move out.. but again, some SF folks might have to confirm that..

    But still different than delivering a move-in ready, remodeled,  vacant property to an owner occupant.

    I totally overlooked just cause when vacating SFHs in SF.  My understanding from my East Bay area rent control experience is that if you have a year lease, you don't have to renew.  Since SFHs are rent controlled, you can raise rents at that time or terminate.  But I could be wrong about that.  

  • Youngstown, OH · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 4 votes
    12y

    I think you could easily rent out the entire house for 4k a month.

    It is most likely that you would lose more money selling the house than if you hold out and get the correct permits. I know it shouldn't take more than 3 months to get the permits and have the the kitchen rebuilt. If done efficiently, you could have 2 units ready to rent by the end of the month.

    You have a nice piece of property at nearly 2,500 sq. feet and the rent would be very commendable considering that you own a 4 bedroom unit.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    12y

    @Account Closed 

    High TAXs  compared to CA... you must not be talking about RE tax's but income tax's... Texas RE tax[s are some of the highest in the country and many investor RUE the day they bought texas because  the property tax's eat up all their cash flow or what they thought was cash. flow...  But Texas is on a high right now.. its soup de jour  like Atlanta was 3 years ago.. Vegas and Pheniox before it... takes one good oil bust and down it goes like other cyclical RE markets... Between the foundation issues... HIGH property tax's etc etc I think there are many better places to invest than TExas.. I would though say that doing ground up new construction is pretty hot sector to be in in Texas especially Austin.. But cash flow rentals  NO WAY compared to most of CA.. Most of CA you will protect your investment and make far more in the long run on appreciation.   My personal 2 cents.

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    Right on Jay, since Prop. 13 Calif taxes are very low as compared to most states. These other states don't understand the momentum created with low taxes and the impact it has on real estate values. High taxes keep homeowners stuck and gun shy to move up as that tax lingers over their head like a hammer. I would say there are thousands living in 1 mil homes and paying less than 1k per year in Cali. Some other states would be at 30k+ annually. How about the extra out state investor tax some states came up with..this just adds insult to injury. I won't get started on that idiocy.  :)

    thanks, 

    Matt

  • J. MartinPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Account Closed ,

    It looks like SFH not subject to rent control are still subject to "just cause" evictions, based on the wonderful SFTA folks :)

    "Some Units Have Limited Rent Control Coverage Single Family Homes/Condos—You do not have full rent control protection if you live in a single family home (note that a single family home with an illegal in-law unit counts as a 2 unit building) or a condominium and you (and your roommates) moved in on or after January 1, 1996. While these units do not have limits on rent increases, they do have "just cause" eviction protection, meaning you can only be evicted for one of 14 just causes."

    http://www.sftu.org/rentcontrol.html

    Now what if you just jack up the rent to get them out? SFTU says 60 day notice for rent increases more than 10%. But I didn't see a dispute process. There is one in Oakland, I believe, but not sure about SF. So you need at least 60 days, assuming everything goes to plan, and no struggle with the tenant. Might be a bit more work if you're only renting it a year..

  • J. MartinPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Elizabeth O. ,

    It was nice to @Amit M. concurred with the value added play if you hold on, renovate the entire thing, and get the permits. He has a lot of experience adding value in SF (and is working one now.)

    Also, if you have Amit, @Account Closed and I all suggesting to do a Craigslist test, maybe I'm not as crazy as I thought! You're talking about potentially hundreds of thousands in profits here over the next few years, depending on how it plays out, so I would spend the time/energy necessary to test the market, IMHO. :) Good luck!

  • Queen Creek, AZ · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    Interesting conversation on CA taxes.  We moved from there because if we moved instate we would have gotten hammered by taxes.  All those people living in million dollar homes paying less then 1k in taxes?  Their neighbors who bought last year are generally paying 1.25% yep, $12,500 so its not a deal for everyone.  We sold a decent house in a average school system where we were paying @4k a year (we had been there 10 years) in taxes and bought a much nicer house in Phoenix with taxes of $3,500.  California is unique in there attitude of "stick it to the new guy, why should I pay?".  I know a lot of people there that would not or could not move because it would reset their taxes.

  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2014 · 22 posts · 10 votes
    12y

    Thank you to everyone for the advice - it's so helpful!

    @Steve Babiak @Bill Exeter

    Thank you for the clarification on the timing for the 1031. We will talk to our tax advisor after we see the offer range and decide whether to pursue it.

    @Amit M.

    Thank you for your perspective. It's not right across from the projects - actually it's near the Leland strip. My husband and I have decided we want to try to work through the city's procedure to legalize the in-law unit. Since the space was built with permits as a 1BR / office / 1 BA addition and passed inspection, the ceiling heights and egress requirements should hopefully work to qualify the unit as a legal 1BR / 1BA. We don't know why they permitted the second bedroom as an office. The only thing we can guess is that they may have mistakenly thought that it needed a closet to comply as a bedroom. We'll see if it is able to be changed to a 2BR during this process. While I start that conversation with DBI, we'll work on upgrading the upstairs a little more.

    @J. Martin

    The test Craigslist ad is a great idea. I'm going to try legalizing first, but if they throw up a bunch of hurdles, I'll test the market with the single kitchen layout.

    As far as evictions on a SFH, you can just jack up the rent if the market rate has risen and you're careful to document your comps. We researched this when hoping to move back into our primary residence. After a lease is up in San Francisco, it automatically goes to month-to-month with no regular option for the landlord to terminate it as long as the tenants continue to comply with the lease terms. We had the option of an owner move-in eviction, but we would have to pay $15K ($5K x 3 people) to the tenants to make that happen.


    In our case, once the lease expired, we told them we were back in town in a rental house and were wondering how long they planned to stay. They straight up told us they had no plan to ever leave. Ever. I believe they were hoping we'd do an owner move-in eviction so they could have the$15K. Next, we had a property manager prepare rent comps - we didn't want to do it ourselves since we thought we might be biased. Then we asked her to throw out some of her higher comps and set it at $100 below our calculated market rate just to be safe. We gave the required 60 days notice for an increase of 17% from the original rent 18 months earlier. The renters went to the tenants' union claiming we were trying to do an illegal eviction by raising the rent above market level. The tenants union apparently told them they had no case, so they moved out immediately. If we had tried to set the rent above market, I'm sure we would have been sued.

  • J. MartinPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    Good @Elizabeth O. ,

    Sounds like you already understand the costs & technicalities associated with the just cause rights, rent increases on non-rent controlled units (what?!), and the dispute process, and not just as easy as putting a tenant in and out. SFTU.. ahh.. And lawyered up! Good :)

    PROPERTY TAXES - 2%
    Talk about property taxes.. w/ all the parcel taxes, etc, my property taxes on my 4plex in Richmond comes to about 2% of the purchase price! Improvement district, schools, police, etc.. Most of it is worth it I think THOUGH. Especially to improve the area and provide better services. Would rather chip in to provide that support to help the overall city and neighborhood improve than pay 1% and have it slide downwards.. But Richmond needs more of a bump than most.. Still cash-flowing well too, because that's all taken into account ;)

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    @Elizabeth O.  it's definitely an advantage to have those rooms already legal. I wouldn't worry too much about making the office into 2nd BR. If it's just adding a closet, that's easy. But it may be light/air or egress out the window. If so, just leave it as an "office."  That's common, and you can still market it as a 2BR, as people will use that room as a BR anyways.  (Often people get final inspection as an "office", then add a closet afterwards anyway.)  Having it be a legal bedroom is an anachronism that is classic to SF. People use offices, dens, library rooms, media rooms, etc. all the time as bedrooms. To the best of my knowledge there are no liabilities attached. It's only when you sell, that you need to disclose that it's an office (somewhere in the disclosures), but can still market it on mls,on brochures, etc. as a 2BR apartment. 

    The DBI fact sheet you linked listed the requirements they are looking for. But I didn't see any info on plumbing and electrical standards they will expect. Does the kitchen have to meet current code?  So I have a call in to DBI about it. 

    We should keep in touch and trade notes if you're going to pursue legalization soon. I think you can PM me from my profile, or update on this posting. 

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Elizabeth O.:

    As far as evictions on a SFH, you can just jack up the rent if the market rate has risen and you're careful to document your comps. We researched this when hoping to move back into our primary residence. After a lease is up in San Francisco, it automatically goes to month-to-month with no regular option for the landlord to terminate it as long as the tenants continue to comply with the lease terms. We had the option of an owner move-in eviction, but we would have to pay $15K ($5K x 3 people) to the tenants to make that happen.


    In our case, once the lease expired, we told them we were back in town in a rental house and were wondering how long they planned to stay. They straight up told us they had no plan to ever leave. Ever. I believe they were hoping we'd do an owner move-in eviction so they could have the$15K. Next, we had a property manager prepare rent comps - we didn't want to do it ourselves since we thought we might be biased. Then we asked her to throw out some of her higher comps and set it at $100 below our calculated market rate just to be safe. We gave the required 60 days notice for an increase of 17% from the original rent 18 months earlier. The renters went to the tenants' union claiming we were trying to do an illegal eviction by raising the rent above market level. The tenants union apparently told them they had no case, so they moved out immediately. If we had tried to set the rent above market, I'm sure we would have been sued.

    Thanks for sharing the details on your SF just-cause eviction.  Now I'm wondering if Berkeley has a fair market rent cap on increases for props outside of rent control.  So 17% was a deal breaker for your tenants?  Since your increase was within market, it would seem that they couldn't just move to a similar house for a better rent. Or did they move because they could see that max allowable rent increases were going to become an annual event?

  • J. MartinPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Account Closed ,

    That's why a lot of them end up in Oakland (just bought property there). And then spread out further in the Bay when they can't afford Oakland any more. (And why I have properties in Richmond ;) But these tenants probably won't end up at my properties for another 5-10yrs ;)

    They can get a place for $1k cheaper in Oakland, with a yard (although increasing quickly also.) 

    PS. I'm sure Berkeley Tenants Union has lots of info. If not on website, just give them a call as a "theoretical" tenant and ask what the recourse would be if not under rent control, but rent increased significantly, or what is perceived as unreasonably...

  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2014 · 22 posts · 10 votes
    12y

    @Amit M.

    I will definitely update you on our progress with the legalization. We are leaving town for a couple of weeks, but I am devoting July to working with DBI. I just assumed they would have us tear out the kitchen and redo it to code with permits since that was their answer on how to legalize the 2nd bath in my own house.

    @Account Closed @J. Martin

    Yes, the tenants moved to Oakland into a cheaper rental house. Based on their income and their own words, they could have paid the new rent, but the part that really offended them was the clause stating we would be re-evaluating the rent based on market level each year. In reality, if they had paid the new rent, it would have taken our situation from break-even to profitable and we probably would have left them alone and bought ourselves another house.

    For Berkeley, it's my understanding that SFH as well as "Golden Duplexes" are exempt from rent control with no rent increase cap. Quote from cityofberkeley.info:

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Elizabeth O.:

    @Amit M.

    I will definitely update you on our progress with the legalization. We are leaving town for a couple of weeks, but I am devoting July to working with DBI. I just assumed they would have us tear out the kitchen and redo it to code with permits since that was their answer on how to legalize the 2nd bath in my own house.

    @Account Closed @J. Martin

    Yes, the tenants moved to Oakland into a cheaper rental house. Based on their income and their own words, they could have paid the new rent, but the part that really offended them was the clause stating we would be re-evaluating the rent based on market level each year. In reality, if they had paid the new rent, it would have taken our situation from break-even to profitable and we probably would have left them alone and bought ourselves another house.

    For Berkeley, it's my understanding that SFH as well as "Golden Duplexes" are exempt from rent control with no rent increase cap. Quote from cityofberkeley.info:

    Thanks for clarifying. I've read those FAQs on the rent control site many times. I was pretty sure you could raise rents as a way of vacating a SFH, but your situation in SF got my attention.

    Tenant attitudes in the Bay area freak me out.  Many people who seem otherwise rational act out as entitled and angry when it comes to rentals.  Your tenants could afford the rent but were "offended" by the idea of paying market rents.  I'm guessing they have no problem with market driven prices in the rest of their consumer life.  Rent control, while well intentioned, has had many unintended consequences. It's trained tenants to think tenant v. landlord, and to believe that mere ownership of property means the landlord is must be unfairly profiting. I'm practically a bleeding heart liberal and pro tenant but rent control needs an overhaul.

  • J. MartinPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Account Closed  was so careful to document rent comps, and stay at arm's length in the compiling of them, when she was writing above.

    For example, if you jacked up your tenant's rent from $3K to $15K/mo to ensure they would leave, there is an argument that your true intent was to evict the tenant, but because you did not have "just cause" you did it anyway through a different means. This scenario is not written in the Berkeley rent control law. But it is based on legal interpretation of motive, intent.. Probably not a big risk, especially if the new rent is within the general hemisphere of high rents in the area.. But don't jack it up to $50K/mo just to get them to leave and make a point.. 

    A lot of long-term renters are looking for a long-term home under rent control that they can live in for the next 10-20+ years. It's almost like buying a home for them.. Settling into a rent-controlled unit is almost like having a 30yr fixed-rate mortgage, without all the hassles of homeownership. Many view it that way. So I'm not surprised they decided to dash when they found out they'll be paying market forever.. Not good or bad. Just saying how people view it. 

    And called it on moving to Oakland! lol

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    @J. Martin  perspective is exactly the way I interpret it...but I didn't have the energy to write all that, so thanks!

    Basically it's not that you HAVE to increase the rent only to market comps, but if you're egregious the tenant will have a case against you.  i.e. if market comp is $3500 for the unit and you ask for $4200, I think you're good. If you ask for $8000 that is egregious. 

    Upshot is that you still have significant control with SFH and condos in SF when dealing with tenants.

    * in the OP's case, it sounds like her tenants were entitled-litigious-pricks, so yes, doing a rental comp analysis and going strictly by that was the safe thing to do...and it worked...mission accomplished :)

  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2014 · 22 posts · 10 votes
    12y

    @Amit M.  I have a report on my attempt to legalize my in-law. I contacted several contractors before I found someone who wanted to work on the project. He referred me to an architect to work on the screening form, floor plans and site plan - Suzanne at sujodesign.com

    She came out and looked at the property and made a list of things she thought we could be asked to change:

    - Blowing in more insulation - she said that there are different requirements for separation of units than for bedrooms added to the living space of a SFR, so we wouldn't know without opening the drywall and ceilings whether it is appropriate for a separate unit.

    - Ceiling height - there is a bedroom that doesn't have a high enough ceiling at the entrance to the bedroom. This is a bedroom permitted in 2006, so we don't understand how it passed inspection. She suggested pushing back the doorway 3 feet. 

    - Stove venting - the kitchen area was originally permitted as a laundry area, and it's unclear whether the laundry venting being used as stove exhaust meets code. The vent disappears into the ceiling, and we can't see what happens after that.

    - Exit doors - the front door to the in-law is only 30" wide, so it may need to be widened.

    As a result of all this possible work, we changed our minds and are going to try to sell it without legalizing. We tore out the old kitchenette and are replacing it with a minimal wet bar type sink to cover up the plumbing.

    One piece of advice - if you need to get plans from DBI to show existing floor plans or to demonstrate that the unit was there before 2014, go at least 30 days before you need it. The design engineer whose name was on the plans for our house has not answered the request from DBI to reprint the plans. DBI said that if they don't answer, then after 30 days, they'll consider permission given and print the plans.

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