NYC: To buy my home or invest first?

NYC: To buy my home or invest first?

Queens, NY · Member since 2014 · 153 posts · 64 votes
Question for my seasoned investors and mentors. I'd like to get a healthy debate going here. I live in the very expensive Brooklyn/NYC market. I have about 250k in liquid assets and I earn a high W-2 income. I have a family and I currently rent in Park Slope. My goal is to diversify my income away from my W-2 career and eventually become financially independent one day. The question is, what should I do first? Buy a home for myself (this will definitely cost at least $1mm for the type of place I'd want) or keep renting my residence and use my money to invest in flips/buy and holds with partners? Buying a primary residence will wipe away my liquidity but at least put me in the game of building equity and benefiting from appreciation and get me out of renting. It will also get me a much needed tax break from Uncle Sam. It will take me at least 2 years to build up a similar liquidity again. If I see appreciation, taking home equity out is always an option but this is far from a given, especially how late in the cycle we are. Partnering up and investing in flips or buy and holds gets me into the game of being an investor right away and helps me build a track record for lenders, which opens the door for better financing eventually. However, I'd continue renting and getting no tax write offs against my high W-2 salary. Before anybody suggests "house hacking" in a multi-family, I've been searching for that elusive unicorn in Brooklyn and Queens for the better part of a year, but I've concluded that multi families are way too expensive in neighborhoods I'd want to live in (I have a stay at home wife and two young children). The rent you make from the rental unit barely makes a dent in the huge mortgage payment and then I become a landlord when I barely have enough free time between my family and job as it is. So, what do the mentors and philosophers out there say?
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Investor · New York, NY · Member since 2016 · 105 posts · 118 votes
10y

@Eric A. I also live in NYC so I feel your pain, maybe even a little more since I am currently living in Manhattan.  I've come to the conclusion that for me it makes more sense to invest my capital in multi-family homes than sink it in a home.   Of course our circumstances are very different so what makes sense for me may not be the same for you.  

I do think that there is room to do both.   You can purchase a modest starter home and invest in a multi-family outside of the city.  If you invest in Yonkers for example you can buy a 3-4 family home for under $500k.  That property will cashflow well enough to pocket a decent amount of cash even if you engage a property management company to run the place.  I've built a portfolio of 18 properties in Yonkers, I know the city very well and would be happy to share some insights. 

Living in NYC means sacrificing.  You can get all the room you want but you're not going to get it in the neighborhood you want and at the price you want.  So if you're serious about buying a home and preserving some capital for investing then you need to be open to moving.  Same for investing.  Make your money in the city but invest it in much more economical areas. 

Best of Luck!

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  • Investor · Lakewood, OH · Member since 2016 · 203 posts · 191 votes
    10y

    @Eric A.

    I wouldn't consider myself a mentor or philosopher...  But you could buy your home and then invest in a small multi or apartment complex in a rust belt city. Is that an option for you? You wouldn't need near as much cash as you would in NYC.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Teaneck, NJ · Member since 2016 · 567 posts · 291 votes
    10y

    @Eric A., 

    I would focus on buying home first - unless you can invest with very high ROI (but since I lived in Brooklyn I know it is almost impossible). This would save you more than earning on flips/Buy&Hold and then spending it on the rent.

  • Real Estate Agent · Yucaipa, CA · Member since 2016 · 20 posts · 4 votes
    10y

    Rent is money in your landloards pocket. Owning is money in yours as well as a tax write off that is more money in your pocket to invest. I would look to areas much more afordable for your first couple of investments after your own home to minimize your risk while getting your feet wet. You can get in easier and still get a good return on your money. I am no expert. Just relaying what I have done and has worked for me. Best of luck!

  • Investor · New York City, NY · Member since 2013 · 263 posts · 141 votes
    10y

    You can do both even if you buy a one family.  If it is a multi you can either rent the extra apts to renters or make it a BNB.  If you get a place with a basement you can do air bnb.  If you get a place with parking you can rent out the parking space.  Some rent for storage.  If it is big enough you can rent it out to photographers and film crews.  If you have a backyard you can rent it out for camping.  Some companies will pay you to run fiberoptic cables in your home.  You also have air rights.  If a neighbor puts something on your roof like a satellite you can charge them rent for that.  Some condos and coops will not let you do this so you need to ask. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2012 · 91 posts · 41 votes
    10y

    @Eric A.  Do you know what the difference in monthly expenses would be between renting and buying?  There's nothing wrong with renting when it's the cheaper option.

  • Investor · New York, NY · Member since 2016 · 105 posts · 118 votes
    10y

    @Eric A. I also live in NYC so I feel your pain, maybe even a little more since I am currently living in Manhattan.  I've come to the conclusion that for me it makes more sense to invest my capital in multi-family homes than sink it in a home.   Of course our circumstances are very different so what makes sense for me may not be the same for you.  

    I do think that there is room to do both.   You can purchase a modest starter home and invest in a multi-family outside of the city.  If you invest in Yonkers for example you can buy a 3-4 family home for under $500k.  That property will cashflow well enough to pocket a decent amount of cash even if you engage a property management company to run the place.  I've built a portfolio of 18 properties in Yonkers, I know the city very well and would be happy to share some insights. 

    Living in NYC means sacrificing.  You can get all the room you want but you're not going to get it in the neighborhood you want and at the price you want.  So if you're serious about buying a home and preserving some capital for investing then you need to be open to moving.  Same for investing.  Make your money in the city but invest it in much more economical areas. 

    Best of Luck!

  • Real Estate Agent · Burbank, CA · Member since 2012 · 271 posts · 79 votes
    10y

    @Eric A. The primary residence is not an investment, the rental property has more deduction than a primary residence, if your plan is to get some tax break.

    What is you motivation to buy a primary residence? If it's only for tax break and equity, I would not do it. If you intend to live there for 10-20 years, it makes sens to buy over renting in most of the cases.

    Also I would talk to a lender to see how the primary residence will affect your ability to borrow later when you decide to buy investment properties.

  • Queens, NY · Member since 2014 · 153 posts · 64 votes
    10y
    Ruben Guerrero I'd love to learn more about Yonkers. I know where it is, but I can't say I know much about its demographic or economic trends. If it's true I can cash flow there WITH a property manager in place, and it's at least a B neighborhood in terms of safety and tenant quality, then I will run, not walk, to invest there (I won't live there most likely). Didn't think cash flowing multi fam was possible within an hour of the city.
  • Queens, NY · Member since 2014 · 153 posts · 64 votes
    10y
    Ciprian L. Thanks for the response. My motivation to buy my primary residence would include these reasons: 1) stop renting / making my landlord rich 2) find a bigger place, that I could see my family in for 10 years 3) benefit from rising home prices rather than missing out, or worse being a victim of it (in the form of increased rents) 4) build equity, get tax write off That's not to say renting is without its benefits. For example I currently don't have to pay for repairs when stuff breaks, I don't pay water/gas/sewer/taxes which will inevitably make owning a bigger monthly cash outlay. Further I'm extremely liquid right now and able to take advantage of any good investment opportunities that come up.
  • Queens, NY · Member since 2014 · 153 posts · 64 votes
    10y
    Anthony G great question. The place I currently rent for $3,900 would cost $1.2mm to buy with a monthly common charge of $800. In addition, I'd own the liability of paying for stuff when it breaks, and my insurance would cost more. On a purely pre-tax basis my monthly payments to own would be about $5,000 (putting down 20%). Writing off the interest expense brings it down to roughly a wash vs renting. However I'd obviously be building equity in the second scenario, but I'd have no liquidity left to invest for a couple of years.
  • Real Estate Agent · Burbank, CA · Member since 2012 · 271 posts · 79 votes
    10y

    @Eric A. In that case I would probably buy the primary residence first, if you get a better place and the difference is only 1.1k.

    You don't need 200k to start investing.

  • Elmhurst, NY · Member since 2016 · 10 posts · 4 votes
    10y
    Depends on if you plan sending your kids to a public school. My crystal ball sees you in a single family home in a nice town in Westchester somewhere. If schools aren't a concern, buy a single family home in a safe neighborhood along the gentrification path in one of the boroughs...think Astoria, that type of neighborhood. I doubt cash flowing real estate is going to be your thing because of the time demands that it requires, but I've been wrong before, so take what I say with a bit of salt.
  • Queens, NY · Member since 2014 · 153 posts · 64 votes
    10y
    Andrey Norin thanks for the response. I'm more of an urban guy having grown up in NYC. I can't see myself raising my kids in a yuppie suburb. Diversity is very important to me.
  • Investor · New York, NY · Member since 2016 · 105 posts · 118 votes
    10y

    @Eric A. Yonkers has always been overlooked but as of late it has been getting a lot more attention.  Specially from investors who can no longer afford Brooklyn.  That's because there are very few places left that are within 25 minutes of Manhattan and still boast affordable prices.  The best part is that you don't have to live there to own there.  All of my properties are managed by a third party property manager and still boast a 12%+ cash on cash return.  

    Shoot me a message, I'd be happy to share my experience with you.  

    Ruben

  • Phoenicia, NY · Member since 2016 · 42 posts · 29 votes
    10y
    I vote for buying your primary residence in the city and waiting on the rentals for a few years. Though counting on appreciation is speculation most places, it really isn't in NYC. So if you plan on being in the house 10+ years, buying a primary residence in NYC is an investment. You could even do a refi and get cash out for investments and add that to the cash you'll be able to put aside over the next few years. I bought a 2 bedroom coop in Windsor Terrace five years ago and and looking at a similar strategy, since it's appreciated in value so much.
  • Real Estate Coach · Venice Beach, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    Ooh, I want to be called a philosopher! :) Maybe I'll call myself one. Haha. I like philosophy.

    My philosophy on what you are asking is-

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog/2014/01/1...

    I live in LA, so same capital/returns situation here. I rent the place I live in and buy investment properties out-of-state.

  • Yonkers, NY · Member since 2016 · 14 posts · 2 votes
    10y

    @Ruben Guerrero hello I am born and raised in yonkers. Very interested about hearing your start in investing in yonkers ny and any knowledge you have on the market there. Outside influence of family and friends some who do and don't invest have all gave me the assumption it would not be smart for me to invest in yonkers just mainly because of taxes and property price . Also me just starting out i could invest elsewhere for cheaper. I feel yonkers would be the market i would know the most about as far as rental pricing, good or bad neighborhoods to invest, jobs in the city etc... becuase i was raised there and see the development thats going on. Would you consider it regentification ? I have learned the 12% return is a good return margin on investment. So i feel you know good investments in this market. It's hard for me to consider another market being that I know a lot about yonkers that I'd be able to use to my advantage.  When ever i speak on investing out of yonkers I really can't pin point a place besides saying it's all about the deal finding a good deal then it would be the place for me its all about the numbers making sense having that right return on investment. My profession is a truck driver traveling thru all 48 states so this makes me say I can invest anywhere and have a property manager run it. Very interested in anything you would share with me with you start where do u see the Yonkers market going, what parts of yonkers do you invest. Trying to be more active on BP to expand my know ledge. Thanks for your time.

    And for @Eric A. To me yonkers is a emerging market trying to catch up to white plains ny. Yonkerst has alot of development going on as far as housing and jobs. Most i have ever seen in all my years of living there new shopping areas being built Hudson River water front properties. Alot of old run down buildings being tore down for newer bigger buildings. The location is also very convenient with the metro north train in downtown yonkers runningyou right into the nyc in the less than a hour. Also I even see clear improvement of neighborhoods which used to be bad. Just trying to add some info on the city from someone who lived there along time

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Eric A.:

    Question for my seasoned investors and mentors. I'd like to get a healthy debate going here. I live in the very expensive Brooklyn/NYC market. I have about 250k in liquid assets and I earn a high W-2 income. I have a family and I currently rent in Park Slope.

    My goal is to diversify my income away from my W-2 career and eventually become financially independent one day.

    The question is, what should I do first? Buy a home for myself (this will definitely cost at least $1mm for the type of place I'd want) or keep renting my residence and use my money to invest in flips/buy and holds with partners?

    Buying a primary residence will wipe away my liquidity but at least put me in the game of building equity and benefiting from appreciation and get me out of renting. It will also get me a much needed tax break from Uncle Sam. It will take me at least 2 years to build up a similar liquidity again. If I see appreciation, taking home equity out is always an option but this is far from a given, especially how late in the cycle we are.

    Partnering up and investing in flips or buy and holds gets me into the game of being an investor right away and helps me build a track record for lenders, which opens the door for better financing eventually. However, I'd continue renting and getting no tax write offs against my high W-2 salary.

    Before anybody suggests "house hacking" in a multi-family, I've been searching for that elusive unicorn in Brooklyn and Queens for the better part of a year, but I've concluded that multi families are way too expensive in neighborhoods I'd want to live in (I have a stay at home wife and two young children). The rent you make from the rental unit barely makes a dent in the huge mortgage payment and then I become a landlord when I barely have enough free time between my family and job as it is.

    So, what do the mentors and philosophers out there say?

     In LA, paying $3900 rent and if you were staying in LA definitely buy personal residence. NYC that is getting closer to that threshold I imagine. Perhaps ask yourself how much rent do you want to pay over the next 10 years? Some LA areas personal residences can almost be investments as is. Some parts of NYC this could be the case too. Consider the 500k tax free for couples on personal residences is not too shabby either. Places like LA, NYC this is a common reality, that is 500k in profit just with appreciation alone. OTH if you took that 250K and made some bold Reit moves 10 years ago you would be sitting on well over 1 mil liquid and paying 60k annually in dividends today. There could be many superior ways to invest your cash other than personal residence or multi is probable. Good luck!

    This one returned 180% since 2010 and double that for the 10 year investment window. 

  • Investor · Sunnyside, Queens, NY · Member since 2015 · 213 posts · 159 votes
    10y

    They NYTimes has a very good rent v buy calculator:

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/upshot/buy...

    One major flaw when analyzing rent v buy is you need to compare apples to apples. You said you want to find a bigger place, that I could see my family in for 10 years. You need to include the cost of renting that bigger place, not your current place to figure out what is the right financial decision. 

    If your rent is below market and can stay that way for a few years, I personally would take advantage of that and keep renting while you scoop up some investment properties. $250k should be able to get you 4-6 SFH's in a good city, lower B class housing which would cash-flow well, each with 25% down.

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    And on a personal note, I used to rent a nice house, good hood, pool etc in LA. My landlord lived on Park Ave in NYC. She had a bakers dozen of these in LA. What city produce the biggest profits( cash flow+equity) for SFH rentals in the nation since 2000? LA. Location ultimately will determain ultimate profits in owning physical RE assets. Not really a secret:)

  • Investor · Coppell, TX · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 646 votes
    10y

    Hello and welcome to BP!  Since you know Yonkers well, I would invest in a place you know best.  If you are into house hacking that might work for you and get your own tenants to pay you enough to cover your mortgage payments.  I just turned 60 years old and I have a bunch of knowledge but have only closed one investment deal for myself.  Most of my experience is in the construction business and I have a little bit of experience in real estate.  I held a active real estate broker license for about 30 years.   I think you are better off investing where you are living and know what's going on.  I would really not do what others say unless they do what you want to do.

    I would tend to invest in a diverse economy, has a population that is growing, and public transportation nearby.  The more amenitities that are near you the better.  I have never been in New York but everything I have heard is positive about its economy.  Learn how to say "no" and how to walk away from something that does not make sense.  You have found a good website to get answers to your questions from some people that have allready been there.

    Good luck to you!

  • Abel CurielBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Queens, NY · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    Well said @Michael Lee. 

    @Eric A., you seem to have more options than most people wanting to get into REI. The more you learn about each option (on your own!) the easier it will be to make a decision. You've received some great advice on this post from fellow BP members but ultimately, nobody knows whats best for you, your family, and your future business plans better than you.

    With your income, available liquid, interest rates as low as they are now, and location, I think looking into a 203K loan for a fixer upper home is an option that may interest you. It will allow you to obtain financing at a low rate and you might have some cash left over to pursue other investment opportunities. Getting in contact with local wholesalers could help you find some decent deals in some of those desirable neighborhoods.

    Best of luck to you!

    -Abel

    REbuild Team - eXp Realty5234 Reviews
  • Wholesaler · Birmingham, AL · Member since 2016 · 26 posts · 9 votes
    10y

    Be wise and patient starting off and soak up as much knowledge as possible. Above anything else get a full understanding of what a true asset versus a liability is and then approach the market. Don't fall for the sizzle in real estate. There's a lot of that being sold out there. Real investors understand that financial freedom and success is a process that's learned and earned in this business, so be patient with yourself as you make decisions entering the business. I strongly suggest refreshing yourself on Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad, Poor Dad and Cash Flow Quadrant. Cash Flow Quadrant will help you on your perspective entering into the business. Good Luck to you and go out and create your own wealth.

    Good Luck,

    Sharif

  • Manhattan, KS · Member since 2016 · 6 posts · 3 votes
    10y

    Nothing worse than looking back at all the years of giving my hard earned money away to landlords. Buying a house is an investment. 

    Think of it this way...

    Just buying a rental property = 400.00 cash flow + 400 equity each month = 800.00 a month increase in worth. However, you spend 1200.00 a month to rent for yourself. -400.00 increase in worth per month (800-1200 = -400.00). You are losing money!

    Buy house of your own = 300 to 600 per month in equity built. 

    Add on a investment property when you're ready. Add in the rental totals (800.00) plus 300 to 600 your own equity. That is 1100-1400 increase in wealth per month.

    Obviouslythe math is dependent on many factors but, the point is still there I believe.

  • Rental Property Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2014 · 92 posts · 17 votes
    10y

    Hi @Eric A.I would say you should keep renting for now an invest youre capital where youre money would have the most return maybe in a few years when there is a market correction buy youre dream home with a fha low down payment.

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