Buyer went behind my back

Buying & Selling Real Estate
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Buyer went behind my back

Joe Gee
Investor · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2012 · 51 posts · 29 votes

I had a contract with the seller.  Put it out there and found a willing buyer that I've never worked with.  We signed an assignment contract and I gave him a copy of the contract.  I always feel funny about giving a new buyer I don't know the actual contract, but they need it because it is the contract they are taking over so I guess I have no choice (unless someone can give a tip how to handle this for the future.)  

The buyer then told me that he wanted to get a conventional loan for the property.  I told him since im wholesaling it, I only deal in cash.  He tried to see if he could get the money together but was unsuccessful.  So after a couple days, me and the buyer cancelled the contract. 

Couple days later, I get a text from the seller.  He wanted to get out of the contract cause of tax purposes and plus his wife just got a promotion at work so now they are able to afford to keep it.  My inspection was about to run out and I still haven't found a back up buyer, so I thought Ok i'll cancel the contract and move on.  

Well lo and behold, a few months later I check the assessors office and find the buyers name I was dealing with as the new owner's name.   

I technically do not have any legal recourse since I cancelled the contracts, but its a down right shady move.  I've had this happen only one other time in almost 5 years of wholesaling and it was when I first started out.  

Should I start whiting out the seller's information on the contract before I give it to the end buyer?  

I guess this is what I get for being nice...

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James MasottiPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Washington Township, NJ · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 976 votes
9y

@Joe Gee - A lot of the wholesalers I know require 10% down at the time of executing the contract for this exact reason. You probably have some sort of escrow with the seller and this 10% from the buyer should more than cover that. This way if both contracts cancel you have deposit from your buyer and you pay the ernest money you gave to the seller. Then you still make money and who cares if your deal fell through, you just got paid for doing nothing. 

Sounds to me like you just need to spend a bit of time sharpening your pencil and updating your systems and expectations. 

To address your other point...yes that's shady of the sell. I recently paid a wholesaler and didn't even have a contract. I'd say it was all done on a handshake but we never even met in person. He just fed me the led, I closed it, and then wrote him a check and said thank you, please come again. This benefits both of us, but not everyone will see business relationships that way. 

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  • Mike CumbieBusiness Member
    REALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    @Joe Gee

    "If I have to cancel, then hey it happens. Im in the legal right to do so if im within my clauses."

    You are correct, however the buyer and seller are within their legal right to enter into contract with each other. They used a clause to exclude you legally because you can't broker. Your only way to prevent it is to buy the house yourself or assign it to someone else within the timeframe (and they can deny access to any assignee they want...legally)

    2Reply
  • Matthew Olszak
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Joe Gee Such is the world of business. If folks aren't obligated contractually to pay you and don't care or have reason to build a relationship with you, you aren't getting paid.

    On the license note: The biggest value of licensing for the public isn't to fill the government's coffers, but rather to mandate a way to make people follow the rules. If I don't follow the rules as established by the state for the general good of the people (in theory), I lose my license and essentially my job. I'm not willing to lose my means of living for skirting the rules on a single transaction, so I follow the law, and my clients can rely on that. Folks who are unlicensed have little to lose by not following the rules on a single transaction. That doesn't mean that they will, just that there is a much greater probability of them doing so due to a lack of consequences and in the end victims are left with much less recourse when they get screwed.

    2Reply
  • Mike CumbieBusiness Member
    REALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    Marvin, 

    If someone puts an ad on Craigslist that shows a house and rooms etc. The broker is not listed, with the brokers address and phone number. And the person selling does not own title or a license, then it is illegal, at least in NY as brokering without a license.

    1Reply
  • Rob Rice
    Wholesaler · Douglasville, GA · Member since 2014 · 72 posts · 63 votes
    9y

    Wow.  That sucks and swallows Joe.  Sorry to here that.  However, you know the business.   Being a wholesaler myself, I'm totally in your corner that it was shady.  Might I suggest getting a good size earnest money deposit from new buyers, and also talking to your new buyers about what your expectations are, and how you do business.  This doesn't mean you won't get burned, but It does open up the door for more communication which could be used to weed out any uncomfortable feelings that may arise from how they deal with you.  I myself don't even deal with Buyers unless we speak about there business needs.  This could be only a 5 minute conversation.  I have found that if someone can't take 5 minutes to speak with me about there business needs, and let me qualify them as a good person to deal with, I WON'T DEAL WITH THEM.  Trust me, You will see 95% of the weasels.  Good luck man.  Keep Wholesaling alive..

    Take Care.

    Rob.

    1Reply
  • Chris Purcell
    Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2010 · 739 posts · 372 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Cody L.:
    Originally posted by @Stephen Masek:

    Signing a contract to buy without having the funds to buy is clearly fraud.  It deprives sellers of potentially better offers from others, and failure to close could cause them other problems.   

    I think there needs to be INTENT.  As in someone puts it under contract with zero intention of being able to close.  If you just want to lock up anyone that puts a property under contract with no funds, you'd lock up 90% of the people out there.  I see properties fall out every day.   I know, I bid on them.

    Guy wants $1m.  I offer $800k.  Tell him I'm all cash, close fast, as-is, no back and forth.  No dragging stuff out, etc.   Instead, seller takes an offer for $900k from someone that's never bought before.  Big bid guy fails to get a loan, property falls out, seller comes to me and says "Okay, I'll take $800K"

    (I say, "well, now I'm $750k".  Jk, I don't do that.  Very much :)

    I'd say 1/2 my deals I buy I'm not the high bidder and I get it after it falls out.  I have a property I'm closing on today actually.  I'm at 3.9m.  Previous buyer was at $4.4m but didnt' close. 

    Why not?  That is a great negotiation tactic and should be used every time that happens to you.

    0Reply
  • Matthew Olszak
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Chris Purcell Dropping on the counter - I personally don't like it. On one hand, its a great way to "teach" the other person that they need to take your offer the first time. But most of our transactions in RE are one-off; the sellers will likely not be involved with a sale for another 10 years so you are only training them to perform better for the next guy, if they even remember the lesson years later. I say if its a deal @ $800k, take the second chance and get it under contract. Maybe you could slither out another $50k, but you could also lose the deal again if someone else had the same terms as you at $775k, and since the seller now has a bad taste in their mouth about you they won't counter you.

    Now, if you can explain why the price dropped, then absolutely go for it. Example: A house with a leaking pipe. Offer today: 500k because I can get my plumber in asap to stop the damage. Offer in 2 weeks after the place has flooded: $200k. The 300k drop wasn't just a "punishment" because they didn't take your offer the first time, its because the home now needs more work. The punishment gains you an enemy unless they are extremely desperate, and even then they'll sometimes accept a slightly lower offer just to spite you. Remember, sellers aren't business-people for the most part with a clear mind, they're just ordinary people with a ton of emotion and sentimental value thrown into their homes.

    0Reply
  • Matthew Olszak
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Marvin S. Difference is that CL terms of service are just that - a private company's TOS. State laws are the LAW.

    The unlicensed brokering argument isn't about preventing assigning contracts. Its about marketing a property for sale to the public without a license. In most states, that's illegal. If you want to market your contract go right ahead, you have all the right to do so in most states, but if you aren't a licensed real estate broker/agent, you can't market a property owned by another.

    Redfin, zillow, etc, renders the ages-old argument of us wanting to monopolize the access to real estate listings null. Via those sites, anyone has access to the vast majority of MLS listings. And any list agent who puts something important to a buyer in the agent remarks is a fool in today's digital age...most of the time the remarks are simply to email all offers to xyz or that all showings must be accompanied. As a list agent, the more people who can see my listing the better, agent or not. As a buyers agent, the more listings I can see the better.

    We "chime-in" because "wholesalers" tarnish OUR reputation as licensed professionals by presenting themselves to the general public in a way the law seeks to prevent, and the generally uneducated public doesn't recognize the difference initially. Real estate law and licensing didn't come about because the gov't was just looking for a new revenue source - they started licensing the marketing of real estate not owned by the marketer because of the same abuses committed by wholesalers today in an effort to protect the uneducated public.

    2Reply
  • Matthew Olszak
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Marvin S. knows his state's laws well. He is reporting people who are advertising properties for sale which they don't yet own and without a license.

    IE: 2000 W. Main Street, Miami, FL 2BR/2BA Great home bla bla bla...

    Instead of advertising their contract:

    IE: Contract to purchase 2000 W Main Street, Miami, FL for sale to be assigned. 15 day inspection contingency, 45 day financing contingency as of 05/25/17, $45k contract purchase price, $5k fee to assign.

    Since you aren't selling the property, no inspections/showings should be performed PRIOR to the assignment. So don't skew my words. If you get under contract and advertise the PROPERTY, you are brokering without a license. Get a license for as cheap and easy as it is, and viola! no more problems because you've enabled the state to have oversight over your RE marketing activities.

    1Reply
  • John Thedford
    Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    9y

    Brokering: the act of bringing a buyer and seller together for compensation.

    @Matthew Olszak--face it. Many don't want to get licensed because it costs time, money, and they are then accountable. What I dislike most about these operators, even licensed ones, is that the seller has NO idea how much equity is being stolen. When an agent is approached for help, and the person lowballs them, then takes 12,15, 25% for assigning the contract, whereas a typical listing fee may be 5-7%, the seller is being ripped off because they trusted that person. There is no transparency, Florida is going after these unlicensed operators using contracts to broker. I had a chat with an attorney representing a seller recently, and they stated that using contracts to broker is legal in many states, but their research showed it is NOT legal in FL. There is a case pending in Collier County courts which I have posted about on BP, and one of their arguments is the "buyer" was brokering without a license. Here is the statute:

    475.43 Presumptions.—In all criminal cases, contempt cases, and other cases filed pursuant to this chapter, if a party has sold, leased, or let real estate, the title to which was not in the party when it was offered for sale, lease, or letting, or such party has maintained an office bearing signs that real estate is for sale, lease, or rental thereat, or has advertised real estate for sale, lease, or rental, generally, or describing property, the title to which was not in such party at the time, it shall be a presumption that such party was acting or attempting to act as a real estate broker, and the burden of proof shall be upon him or her to show that he or she was not acting or attempting to act as a broker or sales associate. All contracts, options, or other devices not based upon a substantial consideration, or that are otherwise employed to permit an unlicensed person to sell, lease, or let real estate, the beneficial title to which has not, in good faith, passed to such party for a substantial consideration, are hereby declared void and ineffective in all cases, suits, or proceedings had or taken under this chapter; however, this section shall not apply to irrevocable gifts, to unconditional contracts to purchase, or to options based upon a substantial consideration actually paid and not subject to any agreements to return or right of return reserved.

    0Reply
  • John Thedford
    Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    9y

    @Marvin S.

    Here is where you can look up complaints filed. The state then investigates and determines if the complaint is "legally sufficient". If so, it goes to their legal department. The attorneys there determine if action needs to be taken.

    https://www.myfloridalicense.com/sto/unlicensedact...

    Like it or not, agents are REQUIRED to report suspected illegal activities. With me, it is a bit more personal having met victims of many of these frauds! 

    You can also look up agents, and see if they have had issues regarding following the laws. You can look them up at www.myfloridalicense.com and see if they have had any disciplinary action taken against them.

    Florida has a fund, funded by agents, brokers, and appraisers, to help make whole victims of misdeeds of agents. Agents can also be fined, have their license suspended, or revoked. If a payment is made from the fund, that agent CANNOT practice real estate until they have reimbursed the fund.

    I don't agree with all laws. Nobody does. I DO, however, intend to act within the laws. I worked to get my sales license, and am now preparing to take my brokers license exam. I will not throw those out the window by playing games. 

    You asked what is brokering without a license? Come on--are you serious. 
    Brokering: bringing a buyer and seller together for compensation.
    Brokering without a licennse? Doing so without a license. Simple to understand.
    The BP cheerleader crowd is here to pat the OP on the back, and also offer suggestions, some of which I find to be sleazy. I have asked several of these operators if they would sign a contract with another unlicensed broker--and the answer is NO! They are happy to play games with other peoples lives, but would never be duped by the same crap they pull on others. What's the old saying? No honor among thieves!

    1Reply
  • Mike CumbieBusiness Member
    REALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    If you see agents posts in Craigslist that do not conform. to the ad guidines for your state feel free to report them. Personally I don't spend my time doing that any more than I do reporting wholesalers. But I don't pretend either is legal either.

    0Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    @Jeffrey Hotz  how does redacting the sellers name keep someone from contacting the seller.. simple enough to look the address up and find out who the seller is from public records..

    maybe wholesalers should look at presenting their offers to purchase that are ONLY going to close if they can assign as Bumpable.. 

    We have that in our Oregon forms.. and on the MLS as a status.. so if you see a property and its bumpable that means there is a contract on it but its contingent on something else happening like the sale of a home .. or other monies coming in.

    If another offer is presented.. the original offer then can go Hard with EM and remove that contingencie... Maybe that is a fair way for these wholesalers who have no real means to close to deals to fairly treat the sellers..

    you can't for one minute tell me that most wholesalers disclose to sellers that they have no ability to buy... I get yellow letters by the hundreds literally a month. NOT ONE OF them says any thing but

    " Hey I am a CASH buyer I can close on the day of YOUR Choosing.." Every single one of them period end of discussion

    So for the very few who have no means to close but disclose this up front to sellers that great.

    for the rest of them who are lieing by omission.. well that's were the actiiviy of wholesaling simply sucks and is unfair to most sellers who are frankly not trolling BP to see how their buyer is taught to tie up their property  LOL

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  • Jeffrey Hotz
    Real Estate Professional · Dublin, OH · Member since 2013 · 251 posts · 165 votes
    9y

    @Jay Hinrichs

    You're right, they can certainly search tax records and try to find number.  Short of registering the assignment contract and clouding the title there's not much you can do if someone goes behind your back, and an assignment contract isn't going to hold up well in court.

    I entirely agree that wholesaling sucks.  Its not my primary business model, and in the end I can say really leaves a lot of $$ on the table.

    I've actually been on the other side of a tied up wholesale a few times and it's frustrating.  Where I wanted to buy a home a wholesaler was trying to sell at way to high a price and hadn't to wait months for it to fall out so I could position seller.

    For us (HomeVestors the "we buy Ugly Houses" guys) as a large national brand everything is highly disclosed so I dont think many franchisees run into this scenario of someone going behind our back.  We advise our franchisees to initially wholesale for quick cash and then use more profitable exit strategies as they become more comfortable with the business.

    In my business model I only wholesale homes that are lower value areas that have no market price support, or if the seller needs a higher price than I can pay cash and I know I can make a decent margin.  Otherwise I close.

    I should add that I am licensed in a couple states.

    0Reply
  • Joe Gee
    OP
    Investor · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2012 · 51 posts · 29 votes
    9y

    From what I get from the Un-Investor friendly crowd is that its ok to "steal" the seller's equity, so long as you buy it upfront and then market the property once you own it?  Im not being facetious, it's a serious question.  @John Thedford. You want to protect the seller's interest, as you should IF your representing them.  But if they want to sell to an investor who approaches them with a "lowball" offer, and they take it, and they CLOSE on it, are you against that?  I know you're against wholesalers assigning contracts thing, but are you anti good deals too?  Seller is still out of their equity.  How are you going to prevent this from happening?  I'm not saying all investors lowball, but all investors want a good deal let's be honest.  Sounds like you want full control of the market.  I mean hey your spending a ton of time trying to regulate it yourself.  

    0Reply
  • Shawn AckermanPro Member
    Real Estate Entrepreneur · Mid West, East Coast · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Joe Gee never let another man stop or distract you from obtaining the capital to feed your family.  You're never going to find someone or people who 100% agree with everything you do. But keep on pushing....You have just received an education so learn from it, tighten up your business and keep it moving.....  I fail at things regularly.  In fact I look for new things to fail at daily.  But I never let that stop me from adjusting, learning and earning to feed my family.  You can knock me down 9 times and I'll get up 10.  You should send the buyer a "We buy houses cash" marketing piece and get him on the phone....Congratulate him on getting the property.  I'd even tell him "the best man won"  That's how you deal with that.  Always remember to persist and you will WIN!!!!

    3Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    @Shawn Ackerman  I see your quite active in the industry... and I see you took the steps to be licensed even though it appears you do a lot of wholesaling turn key and such.

    Is there a particular reason you got your license... ??? just curious..

    For me in 1975 there was no such thing as wholesaling if you wanted into real estate you got a license LOL.

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  • Joe Gee
    OP
    Investor · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2012 · 51 posts · 29 votes
    9y

    Thank you for the kind and motivating words @Shawn Ackerman.  And to others who provided useful feedback.  Initially, I wrote the OP in anger.  After a couple days, and getting feedback from the group made me realize I have to tighten up my game and move on.  I have no ill will towards any parties involved.  I don't like to blame others for what happened to me. I take full responsibility for what happened.  The military taught me that.  I have no excuses.  Just solutions! 

    1Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    @Joe Gee on a separate note its funny how things are done in and around real estate and other industries..  when I was buying timberland and selling logs... you had a lot of what we called GYPOs

    we would have a contract on a timber stand and someone would come in and try and snake the deal from you... The Mills they would never do that otherwise they get black balled and no one will deal with them.. but johnny lunch bucket logger... they would cut you out in a heart beat.

    however most owners would honor the sanctity of contract even though there was no laws or rules pertaining to timber harvest contracts....  I did have one owner who was kind of a jerk back out of my contract and I took him to small claims court for 7500.00  ( our typical timber harvest would net us 50 to 200k per deal and we did about 25 to 30 every year.. so it was significant revenue.

    Well the judge ruled in our favor.. as I made my presentation that we get our timber jobs we need to line out loggers and truckers and fellers and such.. and pulling a job away from us was costly.  Land owner not happy cuts me a check on the spot walks over hands it to me and storms out of the little court room.

    When I was buying court house steps properties.. that was dog eat dog... and there is a lot of bad crap that happens at those auctions.. including collusion to impede competitive bidding.. FBI has made some spectacular busts in this arena.. but investors continue to do it..

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  • John Thedford
    Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Joe Gee:

    From what I get from the Un-Investor friendly crowd is that its ok to "steal" the seller's equity, so long as you buy it upfront and then market the property once you own it?  Im not being facetious, it's a serious question.  @John Thedford. You want to protect the seller's interest, as you should IF your representing them.  But if they want to sell to an investor who approaches them with a "lowball" offer, and they take it, and they CLOSE on it, are you against that?  I know you're against wholesalers assigning contracts thing, but are you anti good deals too?  Seller is still out of their equity.  How are you going to prevent this from happening?  I'm not saying all investors lowball, but all investors want a good deal let's be honest.  Sounds like you want full control of the market.  I mean hey your spending a ton of time trying to regulate it yourself.  

    I am all for good deals it the buyer is transparent. I buy good deals myself. You and I operate differently because I am an agent. I have the option of listing it at a higher price or buying at a lower price. This works well in many cases. I am against unlicensed brokering..no ifs ands or buts. Agents are REQUIRED to report illegal activities. If someone wants to get licensed, or buys and then resells, that is FLIPPING--i don't use the term "wholesaling" in those instances. I have a very good friend that is buying about two a week. I talked to an agent this morning that buys from the MLS all the time. He makes offers...and if accepted he closes. No deception that. What I am most against is these operators that put properties under contract and then walk if they cannot assign that. That is NOT a service, but rather a DISSERVICE to owners. I won't play that game..and NO, I don't "wholesale" as I believe that is also a disservice.

    0Reply
  • Joe Gee
    OP
    Investor · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2012 · 51 posts · 29 votes
    9y

    @Jay Hinrichs Such an interesting and profitable niche! I listened to your podcast awhile back and was blown away by what you have accomplished.  A few months back, I was getting calls from sellers who had wooded lots within the city limits. I thought about using this approach but didn't dig too deep cause the lots were small (60 x 120) and it seemed like the profit margins weren't there.  Even though the land itself was cheap. 

    However my girlfriend's grandparents recently bought 80 acres in MS and they used the timber on the land to pay for 40 acres of it.  I believe their intention is to keep the land and build a house to retire in. 

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    @Joe Gee  there is HUGE money in Timber far more than you could ever make swapping houses

    in your neck of the woods you need 20 plus acres of tree's that are so big at DBH  ( diameter at Breast Height) that you can't wrap your arms around them and touch.. I am sure there are some good ole boy loggers cleaning up in MS LA GA AL FLA

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  • Cody L.
    Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Cody L.
    ...I personally don't think the governments role is bless me before they'll "let" me sell a property. Or hell, even cut hair...

    Although the frustration is understood, the feeling that government often tries to zealously overregulate every nook of society (and may be true in some cases), real estate transactions for many consumers is quite significant a transaction. The level of consumer abuse and fraud would be unfathomably high if there were no licensing requirement for agents and brokers.

     Then the groups like "Realtors TM" can push to educate people on why license people and people who are REALTORS TM are important to use.   If someone wants to go to an unlicensed whatever, that's their decision

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  • William C.
    Real Estate Agent · Souderton, PA · Member since 2016 · 591 posts · 414 votes
    9y
    Wouldn't "whiting out the name" be useless since there's a property address on the contract and the seller could easily be found with that info? Aside from that I tend to side with the crew that considers some forms of wholesaling as practicing without a license. There is a fine line. Some do it correct. Some don't. If you personally cannot close on the property in the event you don't find an end buyer you have no right in my opinion to even sign the contract and should lose any deposit you put down. Just my 2 cents. More power to those wholesaling the right way, I'm all for it. For those that don't, just get a license it'll cost around $500...
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  • Shawn AckermanPro Member
    Real Estate Entrepreneur · Mid West, East Coast · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Jay Hinrichs thanks for acknowledging the activity, it's intentional... With respect to your question regarding my RE license, I got my license not to become an agent but for the knowledge and foundation going through the licensing course provides. The 3 REI businesses I run come from "hustle" which is not something the RE licensing course taught me. The hustle comes purely from my drive to put my children in a better position than I and to retire my wife from her 9-5.

    In today's REI strategy there may be slight changes but as you know from your decades of experience, the game doesn't change much, it just has different players.

    0Reply
  • John Adams
    Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    5y

    Sorry this is unfortunate 

    0Reply
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