Blockchain real estate brainstorm
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Levi T.Pro Member
Rental Property Investor · Tucson AZ / Nice FR / Washington DC · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votesWe are seeing a lot of hype around using blockchain on stuff that does not need it, but if those startups want to be hot and sexy, you need blockchain in the game to turn heads. ICOs are the new IPOs for all startups. There is a reckoning coming for all those altcoins that are launching with zero value as a business that backing it.
As for what blockchain will do for real estate, counties that adopt it can stop dealing with clouded titles as blockchain will let us insure the owner on record is the owner, once a property is recorded to the blockchain. It wont be hard for them to adopt, it's basically a centralized BC ran by the county. It will also mean faster transfer and recoding.
I only see 2 futures for crypto:
As Currency: It lets people move money freely, cheaper, and it also provides them an exit out of their countries currency without a stock broker. When it comes to the currency side of things, the rest of the world will come first before America as my country is not like Grease or Zimbabwe in that respect yet. This market won’t have a lot of players, we don’t need 1,000 crypto currencies, only 2-3 really. I think our currency players are already defined in this respect, they just need time to stabilize more.
As Technology: On the other side of things, people are issuing coins for startup capital, if they are successful then your coin is worth more, this is what’s driving the value of these coins., from there you can buy or sell it on a open exchange, or maybe you can trade it in for stock at some point if they make the leap to a publicly traded company (I'm speculating on that last bit). It allows everyday people to get in on public offering without having to be a millionaire, it also allows companies to stay private and avoid all the regulation and red tape. Hopefully the SEC does not stomp on that and cut us out of the ICO market. Lots of regulation is headed our way in 2018 for America.
Right now we are is massive speculation mode, people are tossing whatever they can get to stick to the ICO market. There will come a shakedown at some point, that’s when we will see which tech companies emerge as the next Amazon or Facebooks of the world.
My top picks are BTC and ETH for currency. ICO alts are XRP, POWR, TRX, and RED (Launching in a few days). I'll be HODLing those till the end of time. I'm hoping BTC gets segwit2x implemented. It cost to much now of days to transfer, and it's slow as mud. If BTC fails to fix that issue, it's done for as a currency coin.
177 Replies
- 8yJoseph ODonovanPro MemberProperty Manager · Ridley, PA · Member since 2017 · 427 posts · 449 votesTo all the Cryptocurrency advocates; what is so wrong with cash? what about the current banking system? credit markets? debt and equity markets? online banking? EFT's? None of these systems have failed me. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. There are way too many Gordon Gekko's chasing Bitcoin, .......and we know how that story ends.
- Multifamily Syndicator · Houston, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes8y
Whatever anyone wants to say and think about Blockchain and Cryptocurrency. Just check out how many replies are in this thread (got a lot of people's attention)
I'm exasperated trying to read through all the content here-the same feeling I get when I've tried to learn about this "bitcoin" (joking meant crypto).
Thanks for starting the conversation Jon :)
- Bend, OR · Member since 2016 · 28 posts · 7 votes8yHi check out REXMLS it is a decentralized multiple listing service. It’s tokenized on the Ethereum network. I’ve read everything I can on it. I think decentralized ledger technologies can revolutionize real estate. I think a lot of the old systems that the real estate industry uses is going to be obsolete very soon. It would behoove anyone who is an agent, broker, title company, escrow to learn about this new technology. Think about what the internet did to the newspaper and classifieds, they practically no longer exist. But this just my humble opinion. But seriously check out REX. http://rexmls.com/
- 8yIan IppolitoBusiness MemberInvestor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
Ian, your comments remind me of Jamie Dimon, CEO of JP Morgan Chase...
Jamie Dimon says he regrets calling bitcoin a fraud and believes in the technology behind it :-)))
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/09/jamie-dimon-says-h...
There are two kinds of people in the world.
There are those who are rigid. They resist change, continue the old ways of doing things, and eventually get left behind as the economy and the real estate business evolves.
Then there are those who are life-long learners. They are flexible and they adapt. They position themselves in the information flow, absorb information from as many sources as possible, and are on a never-ending search for new ways to improve themselves, their business, and their ability to provide a greater level of service to their customers and value to other fellow human beings.
Ignore this technological innovation at your peril my friend. The world will leave you behind.
LOL Thanks for the "friendly" warning about ignoring technical innovation. I'm a software developer who created one of the first open-source sites and I knew about blockchain and cyber currencies 10 years ago.
I was hoping to engage in a fact-based discussion about many of the crippling technical and structural issues in bitcoin and cyber currencies that make them unusable as real money. Obviously you're out of fact-ammunition and just pitching, since you ignored them all and stooped down to a personal insult and attack.
And by the way, you must not have actually read the article you posted as "proof". Jamie Dimon says he only believes in blockchain (which pretty much everyone on the planet does, including me). Blockchain is completely open-source and free, and no one has to purchase it. Very different than the unregulated initial coin offerings you are pushing, as well as cyber currencies in general.
Your pitch sounds exactly like one of the "pump and dump" promoters by the way. I guarantee, there will be more people walking away in orange jumpsuits (i.e. going to jail for securities fraud) before all of this is over. The SEC doesn't play.
The Real Estate Crowdfunding Review - Vancouver, WA · Member since 2014 · 127 posts · 60 votes8y
Hi @Jon Q.
This is a fascinating topic! Although I am not highly educated in blockchain I do understand technology very well high level. I view technology as this massive cycle that repeats itself at a high level. For example in the concept of computing we go from centralized computing to decentralizing computing throughout time. For example we went from the Mainframe to the distributed PC then to the Cloud and now to Blockchain. I have over simplified this but essentially we are seeing how the benefits shift from centralized computing to decentralized computing and the reverse throughout time. It is fascinating to see how the incremental advancements of software, hardware, and network connectivity work together to create these shifts.
Now onto to addressing your question. I like the concept of Blockchain and believe that it will disrupt the real estate industry at some point in the future. I view it as a massive cost reduction and automation technology. I would look to where we can cut costs in real estate and automate certain things.
1. Can we use blockchain to get rid of paperwork (and automate) for buying and selling real estate?
2. Can we use blockchain to get rid of paperwork (and automate) for the mortgage or commercial loan process?
I hope this commentary is relevant and would be curious to learn more.
- Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Jon in parts of the us most tenant don't even have checking accounts and I think bitcoin would be a tad complicated for them.. heck many have never even been on an airplane..
but will be interesting
Lol, there are landlords that will be accepting crypto in nyc in a matter of days. But that's NYC. I can imagine other places tenants show up with Chucky Cheese tokens and say hey, you said you take crypto for rent...
- 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Originally posted by @Ola Dantis:
Whatever anyone wants to say and think about Blockchain and Cryptocurrency. Just check out how many replies are in this thread (got a lot of people's attention)
I'm exasperated trying to read through all the content here-the same feeling I get when I've tried to learn about this "bitcoin" (joking meant crypto).
Thanks for starting the conversation Jon :)
My pleasure Ola!
Information is power. Of the investors in my personal network, most successful are also the most active. This isn’t a business for wallflowers.
- 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Originally posted by @Jeff Quintanilla:
Hi check out REXMLS it is a decentralized multiple listing service. It’s tokenized on the Ethereum network. I’ve read everything I can on it. I think decentralized ledger technologies can revolutionize real estate. I think a lot of the old systems that the real estate industry uses is going to be obsolete very soon. It would behoove anyone who is an agent, broker, title company, escrow to learn about this new technology. Think about what the internet did to the newspaper and classifieds, they practically no longer exist. But this just my humble opinion. But seriously check out REX. http://rexmls.com/
Thanks! Interesting....perfect example of an application for this tech. I’m going to check it out.
- 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Originally posted by @Uwe G.:
Hi @Jon Q.
This is a fascinating topic! Although I am not highly educated in blockchain I do understand technology very well high level. I view technology as this massive cycle that repeats itself at a high level. For example in the concept of computing we go from centralized computing to decentralizing computing throughout time. For example we went from the Mainframe to the distributed PC then to the Cloud and now to Blockchain. I have over simplified this but essentially we are seeing how the benefits shift from centralized computing to decentralized computing and the reverse throughout time. It is fascinating to see how the incremental advancements of software, hardware, and network connectivity work together to create these shifts.
Now onto to addressing your question. I like the concept of Blockchain and believe that it will disrupt the real estate industry at some point in the future. I view it as a massive cost reduction and automation technology. I would look to where we can cut costs in real estate and automate certain things.
1. Can we use blockchain to get rid of paperwork (and automate) for buying and selling real estate?
2. Can we use blockchain to get rid of paperwork (and automate) for the mortgage or commercial loan process?
I hope this commentary is relevant and would be curious to learn more.
Thanks Uwe! I think we both know that the answer is “yes” however, even though there are some startups operating now in the spaces you mention (see Propy), as others remarked, it’ll likely be some time until they are widely used. These are some of the issues that are preventing widespread adoption, but I think it’s only a matter of time:
Hurdles for Blockchain to be Adopted in Real Estate...
"For real estate blockchains to work, several things need to happen: Governments, homeowners and investors would have to recognize and accept a blockchain registry. Small town halls would need to become blockchain-ready. Courts would have to accept smart contracts the way they accept paper-based contracts today.
“Blockchain is a very natural database technology to keep records like titles and to make them widely accessible,” said Dror Futter, partner at Rimon Law and a member of its blockchain practice. “The issue is, you need to have the real estate blockchain recognized as a title registry. You can’t have a situation where you have multiple registries.”
Consumers would have to be willing to accept a smart contract as their only way to engage with real estate participants. “If something goes wrong, who’s picking up the phone?” Piscini said. “If there is a major event, an earthquake, how do you manage the smart contract? At the end of the day, are we willing to trust this? That’s going to be the biggest challenge.”
- 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Originally posted by @Matt R.:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Jon in parts of the us most tenant don't even have checking accounts and I think bitcoin would be a tad complicated for them.. heck many have never even been on an airplane..
but will be interesting
Lol, there are landlords that will be accepting crypto in nyc in a matter of days. But that's NYC. I can imagine other places tenants show up with Chucky Cheese tokens and say hey, you said you take crypto for rent...
I don’t know Matt. I would consider accepting crypto now... if you’ve got a large enough operation for it to makes sense, you could probably do so using BitPay and they’d auto convert to USD for you.
So are...
- Expedia.com. Expedia. ...
- Microsoft. Thomson Reuters. ...
- Virgin Galactic. Virgin Galactic. ...
- Overstock.com. Jerritt Clark/WireImage. ...
- Newegg.com. Newegg.com. ...
- eGifter. egifter.com. ...
- Zynga. The Zynga headquarters is pictured in San FranciscoThomson Reuters. ...
- Subway. Courtesy of Subway
https://amp.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-price-8-surprising-places-where-you-can-use-2017-10
- 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Originally posted by @Matt R.:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Jon in parts of the us most tenant don't even have checking accounts and I think bitcoin would be a tad complicated for them.. heck many have never even been on an airplane..
but will be interesting
Lol, there are landlords that will be accepting crypto in nyc in a matter of days. But that's NYC. I can imagine other places tenants show up with Chucky Cheese tokens and say hey, you said you take crypto for rent...
Matt: here’s another reason... staying relevant to your customer base. I don’t know about you, but millenials make up a large percentage of of my tenants... Remember, millenials grew up through the recession, and therefore, have a high distrust for government and people working in “traditional” financial services. And I say this having worked in “traditional” financial services / investment management for over 15 years :-)
30% Of Millennials Would Rather Invest In Cryptocurrency
“According to a recent survey conducted by Blockchain Capital, 30% of those in the 18-to-34-age range would rather invest $1,000 in Bitcoin than $1,000 in government bonds or stocks. The same study also indicates that 42% of millennials have heard about Bitcoin, compared with 15% awareness among those aged 65 and up.”
- 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Originally posted by @Ian Ippolito:
Ian, your comments remind me of Jamie Dimon, CEO of JP Morgan Chase...
Jamie Dimon says he regrets calling bitcoin a fraud and believes in the technology behind it :-)))
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/09/jamie-dimon-says-h...
There are two kinds of people in the world.
There are those who are rigid. They resist change, continue the old ways of doing things, and eventually get left behind as the economy and the real estate business evolves.
Then there are those who are life-long learners. They are flexible and they adapt. They position themselves in the information flow, absorb information from as many sources as possible, and are on a never-ending search for new ways to improve themselves, their business, and their ability to provide a greater level of service to their customers and value to other fellow human beings.
Ignore this technological innovation at your peril my friend. The world will leave you behind.
LOL Thanks for the "friendly" warning about ignoring technical innovation. I'm a software developer who created one of the first open-source sites and I knew about blockchain and cyber currencies 10 years ago.
I was hoping to engage in a fact-based discussion about many of the crippling technical and structural issues in bitcoin and cyber currencies that make them unusable as real money. Obviously you're out of fact-ammunition and just pitching, since you ignored them all and stooped down to a personal insult and attack.
And by the way, you must not have actually read the article you posted as "proof". Jamie Dimon says he only believes in blockchain (which pretty much everyone on the planet does, including me). Blockchain is completely open-source and free, and no one has to purchase it. Very different than the unregulated initial coin offerings you are pushing, as well as cyber currencies in general.
Your pitch sounds exactly like one of the "pump and dump" promoters by the way. I guarantee, there will be more people walking away in orange jumpsuits (i.e. going to jail for securities fraud) before all of this is over. The SEC doesn't play.Congrats on ”creating one of the first open-source sites and I knew about blockchain and cyber currencies”. I hope that was a successful project for you.
- 8yMike CumbieBusiness MemberREALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
I am familiar with how blockchain works. That is not the issue. How is that going to assist in the following tasks.
1) User wants entrance into a house to view one they like (Do we need a worldwide network of computers tracking that step?).
2) User wants to put in an offer, How is the network of computers in China/Africa/Texas/Toronto/London going to assist in determining how the roof is, the color scheme and styles in South Florida vs the patterns used and kitchens in Southwest Detroit?
3) Assuming you have crowdsourced all laws/regulations/market data across the planet and know percentage of rentals on every HOA on the planet etc, do you recommend a 1 day or 5 day attorney approval for the student rental on the corner here?
I guess I can understand the recording of the deed, but still each area has specific laws, legal precedents for challenging a property sale. Having a title company, attorney and agent who works for you vs a hive mind who works for both is in each sides best interest.
Just my opinion
- 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Originally posted by @Mike Cumbie:
I am familiar with how blockchain works. That is not the issue. How is that going to assist in the following tasks.
1) User wants entrance into a house to view one they like (Do we need a worldwide network of computers tracking that step?).
2) User wants to put in an offer, How is the network of computers in China/Africa/Texas/Toronto/London going to assist in determining how the roof is, the color scheme and styles in South Florida vs the patterns used and kitchens in Southwest Detroit?
3) Assuming you have crowdsourced all laws/regulations/market data across the planet and know percentage of rentals on every HOA on the planet etc, do you recommend a 1 day or 5 day attorney approval for the student rental on the corner here?
I guess I can understand the recording of the deed, but still each area has specific laws, legal precedents for challenging a property sale. Having a title company, attorney and agent who works for you vs a hive mind who works for both is in each sides best interest.
Just my opinion
1) The large SFR REITS are already doing this... not sure exactly which tech they use, but they are doing "self showings".
2) I don’t think blockchain will take the places of home inspectors or other similar services providers / contractors required for the sale.
3) yes, there are hurdles... please see my comment above that includes a list.
It will take time to adopt the tech, and it will be used for a specific purpose, but I think most applicable are transaction in which there is a middleman or centralized company that doesn’t offer much value except keeping a ledger or keeping track of paperwork (ex. lending, listing service, escrow, etc.). Read the articles/links above for other applications in real estate. It’s not going to happen overnight, but there are companies that are already integrating blockchain into their business (ex lending).
- Duluth, GA · Member since 2017 · 32 posts · 27 votes8y
Jump to the bottom for the point.
First: Blockchain's purpose is to offer enhanced security and anonymity of transactions.
Second: Blockchain is not cryptocurrency. Blockchain is a way to secure a transaction. Cryptocurrency is a replacement for cash that leverages the enhanced security that Blockchain networks provide.
Here we go...
The two things we transfer in real estate are deeds and money. The people you call "middlemen" - brokers, title agents, auction websites, etc - are a paid service that we could perform ourselves, but we choose not to, and they aren't actually trusted to hold property or equity at any point so blockchain doesn't actually threaten any of their jobs. The only thing that threatens their jobs is convenience - so will blockchain or crypto become a more convenient way to find property, search and ensure a title, etc? No.
Really, blockchain is only a threat to banks, and cryptocurrency is only a threat to the Federal Reserve. They'll both impact every other industry, yes, but only banks will be threatened in terms of being put out of business, and only the Fed (or equiv in other countries) has to be worried about dollar bills being replaced with Bitcoins. For the rest of the industries, it's just a matter of keeping up with the trend to use blockchain instead of banks to transfer money, and I sure as hell doubt the government will allow the Fed to be overtaken by private currency. South Korea, whose citizens are a huge player in the crypto market, today passed major, major restrictions on the use of cryptocurrency.
If you think that the recorder of deeds is going to get their system to run on blockchain - a more secure way to maintain and transfer records - anytime this century, consider that the internet has been around for almost 35 years and we still have systems run on paper in many parts of the country. And there's no fix for a misspelled name or a lost file/paper.
So, what about blockchain with cryptocurrency for the money part of the transaction?
Blockchain wouldn't take the place of escrow or earnest money, because Blockchain itself does nothing to put a hold on the liquidity of your money. It's just a network for completing transactions. Cryptocurrency is liquid, just like cash, and the point of an escrow or earnest money deposit is to demonstrate a hold on your liquidity.
But, Blockchain would add security to the transaction of funds to seller, or from a tenant to a landlord. This is definitely where we'll most likely see an impact on the RE industry. Unfortunately, we'll probably also see a lot of "Pay your rent in Bitcoin!" signs, which is pretty misguided. Either way...
There are two hiccups that even that has to overcome:
For one, if I'm a millenial tenant (and I am) who has a small portfolio of Bitcoin (and I do), how likely am I to want to give up my Bitcoins, whose value have gone up over 1000% in the past year, rather than my liquid cash, whose value has actually decreased nominally with inflation? Bitcoin value is driven 99.9% by speculation at this point, so I'm going to hold onto it as long as I speculate the market for Bitcoin will keep growing -- for whatever speculated reason. If I were a landlord collecting rent, I'd be worried when Bitcoins start flowing my way, because that probably means they won't be worth anything soon.
Secondly, banks tend to think of themselves as pretty damn secure - and largely opposed to blockchain as it's their biggest threat as an industry - so if your lender is a bank, you can be sure you won't be paying with Bitcoins. If you're using an HML, private money, etc, you might start to see sellers requesting funds in Bitcoin or Ether. But, again see my points above. Banks are starting to consider adopting blockchain to secure their transactions, but you certainly won't see them using cryptocurrencies.
Consider for a second how long it took people to adapt from bullion-secured paper bank notes to getting rid of the gold standard. Paper currency has existed for centuries, but we didn't eliminate the Gold Standard in the US until the 1970's, and even that was an update to a policy that reduced the Gold Standard four decades earlier. It took us decades, or arguably centuries, to switch from barter, to bullion-secured bank note, to where we are now. It will take us decades to transition the majority of our economy to crypto-currency. Much like electric cars and solar power, industry investment is a very slow-moving beast, no matter how wonderful the new technology is.
For now we still conduct 99% of our day-to-day transactions in fiat currency (dollars), so much like in the 30's we had gold-backed paper bank notes, we currently have fiat-backed cryptocurrencies, in terms of public perception. Everyone would be thinking "what is the value of this house in dollars" and convert that to bitcoins (hopefully in real time, given its current volatility), rather than "what is the value of this house in bitcoins".
At the end of the day, what drives both the value of Bitcoin and the value of the Dollar is trust. So long as people trust and understand the ability of the Federal Reserve to mint new dollars and the US gov't to defend them more than they trust blockchains to do the same, people will continue to think in terms of dollars, and Crypto will continue to be to volatile and speculative to pay rent or buy a property.
It will take a generation or longer for crypto to become our collective finance method of choice, if it goes that way.If I were a landlord, I WOULD NOT accept payments in crypto, no matter how convenient my twenty-something-year-old tenants might think it is. It's too volatile in the long run. I would only go this route if you understand the crypto market and want to speculate with your earnings.
If I were a home seller I WOULD NOT accept payments in crypto, for the same reason as above.
In general, if my transactions are funding my livelihood or my business, I would stick to dollar bills.
However, if I found a system that let me transact dollars on a Blockchain network, I would use that system hands down.
One more thing is certain: The aggregate market cap of all cryptocurrencies on all markets across the world is approaching ONE TRILLION USD - backed on zero inherent value. When this bubble pops, you can bet real estate and a whole lot else will come tumbling down with it as $1,000,000,000,000 in global net worth suddenly evaporates. - 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Jump to the bottom for the point.
First: Blockchain's purpose is to offer enhanced security and anonymity of transactions.
Second: Blockchain is not cryptocurrency. Blockchain is a way to secure a transaction. Cryptocurrency is a replacement for cash that leverages the enhanced security that Blockchain networks provide.
Here we go...
The two things we transfer in real estate are deeds and money. The people you call "middlemen" - brokers, title agents, auction websites, etc - are a paid service that we could perform ourselves, but we choose not to, and they aren't actually trusted to hold property or equity at any point so blockchain doesn't actually threaten any of their jobs. The only thing that threatens their jobs is convenience - so will blockchain or crypto become a more convenient way to find property, search and ensure a title, etc? No.
Really, blockchain is only a threat to banks, and cryptocurrency is only a threat to the Federal Reserve. They'll both impact every other industry, yes, but only banks will be threatened in terms of being put out of business, and only the Fed (or equiv in other countries) has to be worried about dollar bills being replaced with Bitcoins. For the rest of the industries, it's just a matter of keeping up with the trend to use blockchain instead of banks to transfer money, and I sure as hell doubt the government will allow the Fed to be overtaken by private currency. South Korea, whose citizens are a huge player in the crypto market, today passed major, major restrictions on the use of cryptocurrency.
If you think that the recorder of deeds is going to get their system to run on blockchain - a more secure way to maintain and transfer records - anytime this century, consider that the internet has been around for almost 35 years and we still have systems run on paper in many parts of the country. And there's no fix for a misspelled name or a lost file/paper.
So, what about blockchain with cryptocurrency for the money part of the transaction?
Blockchain wouldn't take the place of escrow or earnest money, because Blockchain itself does nothing to put a hold on the liquidity of your money. It's just a network for completing transactions. Cryptocurrency is liquid, just like cash, and the point of an escrow or earnest money deposit is to demonstrate a hold on your liquidity.
But, Blockchain would add security to the transaction of funds to seller, or from a tenant to a landlord. This is definitely where we'll most likely see an impact on the RE industry. Unfortunately, we'll probably also see a lot of "Pay your rent in Bitcoin!" signs, which is pretty misguided. Either way...
There are two hiccups that even that has to overcome:
For one, if I'm a millenial tenant (and I am) who has a small portfolio of Bitcoin (and I do), how likely am I to want to give up my Bitcoins, whose value have gone up over 1000% in the past year, rather than my liquid cash, whose value has actually decreased nominally with inflation? Bitcoin value is driven 99.9% by speculation at this point, so I'm going to hold onto it as long as I speculate the market for Bitcoin will keep growing -- for whatever speculated reason. If I were a landlord collecting rent, I'd be worried when Bitcoins start flowing my way, because that probably means they won't be worth anything soon.
Secondly, banks tend to think of themselves as pretty damn secure - and largely opposed to blockchain as it's their biggest threat as an industry - so if your lender is a bank, you can be sure you won't be paying with Bitcoins. If you're using an HML, private money, etc, you might start to see sellers requesting funds in Bitcoin or Ether. But, again see my points above. Banks are starting to consider adopting blockchain to secure their transactions, but you certainly won't see them using cryptocurrencies.
Consider for a second how long it took people to adapt from bullion-secured paper bank notes to getting rid of the gold standard. Paper currency has existed for centuries, but we didn't eliminate the Gold Standard in the US until the 1970's, and even that was an update to a policy that reduced the Gold Standard four decades earlier. It took us decades, or arguably centuries, to switch from barter, to bullion-secured bank note, to where we are now. It will take us decades to transition the majority of our economy to crypto-currency. Much like electric cars and solar power, industry investment is a very slow-moving beast, no matter how wonderful the new technology is.
For now we still conduct 99% of our day-to-day transactions in fiat currency (dollars), so much like in the 30's we had gold-backed paper bank notes, we currently have fiat-backed cryptocurrencies, in terms of public perception. Everyone would be thinking "what is the value of this house in dollars" and convert that to bitcoins (hopefully in real time, given its current volatility), rather than "what is the value of this house in bitcoins".
At the end of the day, what drives both the value of Bitcoin and the value of the Dollar is trust. So long as people trust and understand the ability of the Federal Reserve to mint new dollars and the US gov't to defend them more than they trust blockchains to do the same, people will continue to think in terms of dollars, and Crypto will continue to be to volatile and speculative to pay rent or buy a property.
It will take a generation or longer for crypto to become our collective finance method of choice, if it goes that way.If I were a landlord, I WOULD NOT accept payments in crypto, no matter how convenient my twenty-something-year-old tenants might think it is. It's too volatile in the long run. I would only go this route if you understand the crypto market and want to speculate with your earnings.
If I were a home seller I WOULD NOT accept payments in crypto, for the same reason as above.
In general, if my transactions are funding my livelihood or my business, I would stick to dollar bills.
However, if I found a system that let me transact dollars on a Blockchain network, I would use that system hands down.
One more thing is certain: The aggregate market cap of all cryptocurrencies on all markets across the world is approaching ONE TRILLION USD - backed on zero inherent value. When this bubble pops, you can bet real estate and a whole lot else will come tumbling down with it as $1,000,000,000,000 in global net worth suddenly evaporates.Lookup BitPay. They take risk of volatility and automatically convert bitcoin to cash for you.
Many “Bubbles” aren’t bubbles at all. Would you call addition if the television a “bubble”? What is actually going on with distributed ledger tech (“blockchain”) is the adoption of a new technology. And it will disrupt many, if not all industries.
In regard to crypto currencies...I would say that there are siginfant risks associated with investing in crypto currencies. That said, many have experienced tremendous returns (ex. 20,000% returns in 12 months). I personally have invested a small amount and have generated over 1,000% return in two weeks. Do you know of a stock that you can invest in and generate those returns in such a short period of time. Each crypto is like a startup, with a founder and founding team that developed the platform (ex. Etherium / Ether) and/or currency to solve a particular problem. Similar to the stock market being developed in the early 1900s, it is still the wild Wild West in this space and many believe in the immense potential of this technology to improve the world. Like I said, there is no way to shut down the over 1,300 crypto currencies now circulating. It’s very likely, that your future will involve paying with many different currencies in different situations (ex like you do with air miles, club cards, etc...), bitcoin for large purchases, litecoin for smaller purchase, IOTA for micropayments, Ether or ADA to invest in startups, etc.
In regard to bitcoin driven by speculation... you’re partly right. It’s also driven by alternative investments (crypto) information about competing currencies, the regulating bodies, mining, adoption, etc. etc. it’s not that simple. Also bitcoin impacts altcoin prices, etc. because you may not understand it, doesn’t mean it’s driven “99%” by speculation. There are some very wealthy people investing millions in the space. If I were to assume anything, i would assume that they are smarter and more well informed than you and I... because they likely are!
Although there are newbies investing in crypto that they don’t understand, which is creating significant volatility/risk for crypto investors, there are very large institutional investors and companies investing in the space. Have you been watching the news?
Distributed ledger technology, blockchain, crypto currencies are not going away. They are global in scale and CANNOT be shut down, even by the FED and U.S. government. The largest exchange is Binance, a Chinese company now based in Tokyo. Here’s a recent interview with the CEO:
https://yt2fb.com/binance-ceo-zhao-changpeng-talks-bitcoin-ripple-so/
Ignore the real estate technilogical evolution at your own peril my friend. We can agree to disagree.
- Duluth, GA · Member since 2017 · 32 posts · 27 votes8y
Originally posted by @Jon Q.:
Lookup BitPay. They take risk of volatility and automatically convert bitcoin to cash for you.
Many “Bubbles” aren’t bubbles at all. Although there are newbies investing in crypto that they don’t understand, there are very large institutional investors and companies investing in the space. Have you been watching the news?
Distributed ledger technology, blockchain, crypto currencies are not going away. They are global in scale and CANNOT be shut down, even by the FED and U.S. government. The largest exchange is Binance, a Chinese company now based in Tokyo. Here’s a recent interview with the CEO:
https://yt2fb.com/binance-ceo-zhao-changpeng-talks-bitcoin-ripple-so/
Ignore the real estate technilogical evolution at your own peril my friend. We can agree to disagree.
Risk of volatility isn't the only reason to not use crypto, which I addressed.
While crypto might not be a bubble (it's my opinion that it is), the fact that crypto can't be used in place of fiat means that when a "normal" recession begins, say the '18-year housing cycle', and people's fiat accounts wane, crypto will be converted back to fiat to fill those accounts, because normal everyday things are still transacted in fiat.
Never said ledger, blockchain, or crypto are going away, and I agree that we'll see much more of it for good reason.
Never said they'd be shut down, but regulation is imminent.
I don't think I'm ignoring a revolution, I think I'm speaking plainly to temper expectations that I think are generally overinflated, and that's the most important thing to me. All of this hype will only exacerbate the negative effects of a crypto bubble that I do believe very obviously exists. These are differences of opinion that could have big consequences. - 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Jon Q.:
Lookup BitPay. They take risk of volatility and automatically convert bitcoin to cash for you.
Many “Bubbles” aren’t bubbles at all. Although there are newbies investing in crypto that they don’t understand, there are very large institutional investors and companies investing in the space. Have you been watching the news?
Distributed ledger technology, blockchain, crypto currencies are not going away. They are global in scale and CANNOT be shut down, even by the FED and U.S. government. The largest exchange is Binance, a Chinese company now based in Tokyo. Here’s a recent interview with the CEO:
https://yt2fb.com/binance-ceo-zhao-changpeng-talks-bitcoin-ripple-so/
Ignore the real estate technilogical evolution at your own peril my friend. We can agree to disagree.
Risk of volatility isn't the only reason to not use crypto, which I addressed.
While crypto might not be a bubble (it's my opinion that it is), the fact that crypto can't be used in place of fiat means that when a "normal" recession begins, say the '18-year housing cycle', and people's fiat accounts wane, crypto will be converted back to fiat to fill those accounts, because normal everyday things are still transacted in fiat.
Never said ledger, blockchain, or crypto are going away, and I agree that we'll see much more of it for good reason.
Never said they'd be shut down, but regulation is imminent.
I don't think I'm ignoring a revolution, I think I'm speaking plainly to temper expectations that I think are generally overinflated, and that's the most important thing to me. All of this hype will only exacerbate the negative effects of a crypto bubble that I do believe very obviously exists. These are differences of opinion that could have big consequences.Yes, I agree with many of your remarks here. Thx!
- 8yMike CumbieBusiness MemberREALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
I agree there is some usage in RE and Blockchain is not a bubble, it will have plenty of uses. However when the only tool someone has is a hammer everything is a nail (Not you but speaking in general). Like Bluetooth when it came out. The amount of Bluetooth enabled socks/wine bottles/water bottles and completely useless items are sitting in nightstands and the bottom of closets. The next generation of copyproof CD's that got all sorts of backing only to find out that a lowtech sharpie marker could beat it.
To go back to just the crypto currency. What value do I have in taking a currency that I have to convert back to cash? I was pretty excited about Bitcoin in the beginning. Then MtGox pulled it's move and stole Millions in it (wonder what the value of that stolen wallet is today). I was pretty familiar with MtGox because I use to play Magic The gathering and sold a chunk of cards there when I was quite a bit younger. Somehow they turned from collector card trading site to a Bitcoin trading site, to oops looks like some stuff is gone.
The only real value of using this currency is "its secret", however every single transaction is tracked. If I wanted to buy something illegal, I could either take out untraceable cash, pay on credit card or use a currency that is being tracked by millions of computers all across the globe verifying who paid who what. I would bet before it gets big, there is a court case where they break into those blockchains and find a murder for hire transaction or something. Then a precedent will be set and all sorts of those transactions will be dug into.
To quote a favorite movie of mine: Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should
- 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Lookup BitPay. They take risk of volatility and automatically convert bitcoin to cash for you.
Many “Bubbles” aren’t bubbles at all. Although there are newbies investing in crypto that they don’t understand, there are very large institutional investors and companies investing in the space. Have you been watching the news?
Distributed ledger technology, blockchain, crypto currencies are not going away. They are global in scale and CANNOT be shut down, even by the FED and U.S. government. The largest exchange is Binance, a Chinese company now based in Tokyo. Here’s a recent interview with the CEO:
https://yt2fb.com/binance-ceo-zhao-changpeng-talks-bitcoin-ripple-so/
Ignore the real estate technilogical evolution at your own peril my friend. We can agree to disagree.
Risk of volatility isn't the only reason to not use crypto, which I addressed.
While crypto might not be a bubble (it's my opinion that it is), the fact that crypto can't be used in place of fiat means that when a "normal" recession begins, say the '18-year housing cycle', and people's fiat accounts wane, crypto will be converted back to fiat to fill those accounts, because normal everyday things are still transacted in fiat.
Never said ledger, blockchain, or crypto are going away, and I agree that we'll see much more of it for good reason.
Never said they'd be shut down, but regulation is imminent.
I don't think I'm ignoring a revolution, I think I'm speaking plainly to temper expectations that I think are generally overinflated, and that's the most important thing to me. All of this hype will only exacerbate the negative effects of a crypto bubble that I do believe very obviously exists. These are differences of opinion that could have big consequences.I wanted to add that many of these “crypto currencies” are not just digital money... they are also entirely new platforms. Etherium platform and “Ether” the crypto currencies are one such example:
https://www.coindesk.com/information/what-is-ethereum/
And many/most Initial Coin Offerings (ICOs) have been raised with investors investing in these startups with Ether (crypto currency).
Tech start-ups raise $1.3bn this year from initial coin offeringshttps://amp.ft.com/content/1a164d6c-6b12-11e7-bfeb-33fe0c5b7eaa
- 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Originally posted by @Mike Cumbie:
I agree there is some usage in RE and Blockchain is not a bubble, it will have plenty of uses. However when the only tool someone has is a hammer everything is a nail (Not you but speaking in general). Like Bluetooth when it came out. The amount of Bluetooth enabled socks/wine bottles/water bottles and completely useless items are sitting in nightstands and the bottom of closets. The next generation of copyproof CD's that got all sorts of backing only to find out that a lowtech sharpie marker could beat it.
To go back to just the crypto currency. What value do I have in taking a currency that I have to convert back to cash? I was pretty excited about Bitcoin in the beginning. Then MtGox pulled it's move and stole Millions in it (wonder what the value of that stolen wallet is today). I was pretty familiar with MtGox because I use to play Magic The gathering and sold a chunk of cards there when I was quite a bit younger. Somehow they turned from collector card trading site to a Bitcoin trading site, to oops looks like some stuff is gone.
The only real value of using this currency is "its secret", however every single transaction is tracked. If I wanted to buy something illegal, I could either take out untraceable cash, pay on credit card or use a currency that is being tracked by millions of computers all across the globe verifying who paid who what. I would bet before it gets big, there is a court case where they break into those blockchains and find a murder for hire transaction or something. Then a precedent will be set and all sorts of those transactions will be dug into.
To quote a favorite movie of mine: Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should
1. Speed
2. Lower fees
3. Marketing / meeting demands of your customers
In re to Mt.Gox... that kind of think happens with USD on a daily basis. Have you heard of the financial crisis where bankers stole billions from the American public? Did a single banker or financial executive go to prison?
Educate yourself. Help educate others. Promote economic justice.
Fact: Your USD is backed by nothing except faith in the U.S. banking system and your gov’t. Do you have faith in your bankers?
Fact: Your USD is worth 2% less every year
Fact: Banks create money when they charge interest on your savings that is lent out to others. As this money is created it causes inflation and lowers the value of your money. The fractional reserve banking system.
Fact: as of 1/21/16, banks with deposits less than $15.2M have no (zero) reserve requiremen. Banks with $15.2M and $110.2M in deposits have a reserve requirement of 3%, and banks with over $110.2M in deposits have a reserve requirement of 10%.
Do you know of any other business that can borrow 100% from a bank with zero investment?
A federal reserve banking scam... which began in 1971 with an announcement by President Nixon...
“It was 45 years ago, on Aug. 15, 1971, when President Richard Nixon announced that the decades-old monetary system that had controlled the U.S. dollar—and thus the world’s currency values—for more than three decades just wasn’t working anymore. To most Americans the news, known as the “Nixon shock,” wasn’t actually shocking. War in Vietnam had drained America’s resources, world currency speculation was rampant and 1970 saw the biggest deficit thus far in U.S. history.”
Here’s some history:
- 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Originally posted by @Mike Cumbie:
I agree there is some usage in RE and Blockchain is not a bubble, it will have plenty of uses. However when the only tool someone has is a hammer everything is a nail (Not you but speaking in general). Like Bluetooth when it came out. The amount of Bluetooth enabled socks/wine bottles/water bottles and completely useless items are sitting in nightstands and the bottom of closets. The next generation of copyproof CD's that got all sorts of backing only to find out that a lowtech sharpie marker could beat it.
To go back to just the crypto currency. What value do I have in taking a currency that I have to convert back to cash? I was pretty excited about Bitcoin in the beginning. Then MtGox pulled it's move and stole Millions in it (wonder what the value of that stolen wallet is today). I was pretty familiar with MtGox because I use to play Magic The gathering and sold a chunk of cards there when I was quite a bit younger. Somehow they turned from collector card trading site to a Bitcoin trading site, to oops looks like some stuff is gone.
The only real value of using this currency is "its secret", however every single transaction is tracked. If I wanted to buy something illegal, I could either take out untraceable cash, pay on credit card or use a currency that is being tracked by millions of computers all across the globe verifying who paid who what. I would bet before it gets big, there is a court case where they break into those blockchains and find a murder for hire transaction or something. Then a precedent will be set and all sorts of those transactions will be dug into.
To quote a favorite movie of mine: Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should
So... keep your money invested in real estate. It is good inflation protection and offers one of the best stores of value.
- Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Jon Q.:
Originally posted by @Matt R.:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Jon in parts of the us most tenant don't even have checking accounts and I think bitcoin would be a tad complicated for them.. heck many have never even been on an airplane..
but will be interesting
Lol, there are landlords that will be accepting crypto in nyc in a matter of days. But that's NYC. I can imagine other places tenants show up with Chucky Cheese tokens and say hey, you said you take crypto for rent...
I don’t know Matt. I would consider accepting crypto now... if you’ve got a large enough operation for it to makes sense, you could probably do so using BitPay and they’d auto convert to USD for you.
So are...
- Expedia.com. Expedia. ...
- Microsoft. Thomson Reuters. ...
- Virgin Galactic. Virgin Galactic. ...
- Overstock.com. Jerritt Clark/WireImage. ...
- Newegg.com. Newegg.com. ...
- eGifter. egifter.com. ...
- Zynga. The Zynga headquarters is pictured in San FranciscoThomson Reuters. ...
- Subway. Courtesy of Subway
https://amp.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-price-8-surprising-places-where-you-can-use-2017-10
In the NYC case there was a PM setting this up for owners and he had a bunch of owners ready to go starting in Feb.
In NYC they already pay in Crypto for private schools etc...culturally speaking it is being adopted faster there as expected perhaps.
- 8yMike CumbieBusiness MemberREALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
1) I do not believe there is a speed in paying issue with any current platform (except mailing a check or money order), I went to lunch today and paid at the table, happened in about 2 seconds. If I buy stuff on Ebay or Amazon or any other platform by the time my browser refreshes the transaction is complete. By the time I logged into my credit card site the transaction is there.
2) If I pay via my debit card or pay my credit card (or cash) I don't have any fees as the consumer. I do not forsee businesses offering a discount for using bitcoin, that they will have to transfer later to cash anyway for a cost. (I could be wrong)
3) If my customers are not saving any time/money what demands are they having? Sure some who jumped in early and are now sitting on some bitcoin to spend because they mined it.
Just my 2 cents (or bits.... bada bing)
- 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Originally posted by @Mike Cumbie:
I agree there is some usage in RE and Blockchain is not a bubble, it will have plenty of uses. However when the only tool someone has is a hammer everything is a nail (Not you but speaking in general). Like Bluetooth when it came out. The amount of Bluetooth enabled socks/wine bottles/water bottles and completely useless items are sitting in nightstands and the bottom of closets. The next generation of copyproof CD's that got all sorts of backing only to find out that a lowtech sharpie marker could beat it.
To go back to just the crypto currency. What value do I have in taking a currency that I have to convert back to cash? I was pretty excited about Bitcoin in the beginning. Then MtGox pulled it's move and stole Millions in it (wonder what the value of that stolen wallet is today). I was pretty familiar with MtGox because I use to play Magic The gathering and sold a chunk of cards there when I was quite a bit younger. Somehow they turned from collector card trading site to a Bitcoin trading site, to oops looks like some stuff is gone.
The only real value of using this currency is "its secret", however every single transaction is tracked. If I wanted to buy something illegal, I could either take out untraceable cash, pay on credit card or use a currency that is being tracked by millions of computers all across the globe verifying who paid who what. I would bet before it gets big, there is a court case where they break into those blockchains and find a murder for hire transaction or something. Then a precedent will be set and all sorts of those transactions will be dug into.
To quote a favorite movie of mine: Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should
Since the Great Depression financial institutions and banks (hereafter “FI+B”) have gained greater power over U.S. workers and corporations/employers (see attached charts).
This is how:
STEP 1: FI+B pushed bad loans to those who can't afford them, bundled this junk debt into CDOs and CMBS, then rating agencies pressured by these financial firms committed fraud by selling these securities as investment grade securities.
FI+B benefits to detriment of American workers.
STEP 2: They cause real estate crash then the government aka “the public” bails them out. American workers lose their house and many lose jobs, for many only means of income generation. Not a single executive of any bank goes to prison.
FI+B benefits to detriment of American workers.
STEP 3: The government bailout leads to a sovereign debt crisis. The programs that were designed to support the public and American workers are stripped / de-funded.
FI+B benefits to detriment of American workers.
“The effects of the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression are forcing changes on state governments and the U.S. economy that could linger for decades. ... The deep and persistent losses of the recession forced states to make broad cuts in spending and public workforces.”
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/2812691
Sep 14, 2013
* Nearly half the individuals in this country have a negative net worth.
* Education debt surpassed credit card debt for the first time in U.S. history
* If You Have $10 And No Debt, You Are Richer Than 15% Of American Households Put Together
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