Blockchain real estate brainstorm
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Levi T.Pro Member
Rental Property Investor · Tucson AZ / Nice FR / Washington DC · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votesWe are seeing a lot of hype around using blockchain on stuff that does not need it, but if those startups want to be hot and sexy, you need blockchain in the game to turn heads. ICOs are the new IPOs for all startups. There is a reckoning coming for all those altcoins that are launching with zero value as a business that backing it.
As for what blockchain will do for real estate, counties that adopt it can stop dealing with clouded titles as blockchain will let us insure the owner on record is the owner, once a property is recorded to the blockchain. It wont be hard for them to adopt, it's basically a centralized BC ran by the county. It will also mean faster transfer and recoding.
I only see 2 futures for crypto:
As Currency: It lets people move money freely, cheaper, and it also provides them an exit out of their countries currency without a stock broker. When it comes to the currency side of things, the rest of the world will come first before America as my country is not like Grease or Zimbabwe in that respect yet. This market won’t have a lot of players, we don’t need 1,000 crypto currencies, only 2-3 really. I think our currency players are already defined in this respect, they just need time to stabilize more.
As Technology: On the other side of things, people are issuing coins for startup capital, if they are successful then your coin is worth more, this is what’s driving the value of these coins., from there you can buy or sell it on a open exchange, or maybe you can trade it in for stock at some point if they make the leap to a publicly traded company (I'm speculating on that last bit). It allows everyday people to get in on public offering without having to be a millionaire, it also allows companies to stay private and avoid all the regulation and red tape. Hopefully the SEC does not stomp on that and cut us out of the ICO market. Lots of regulation is headed our way in 2018 for America.
Right now we are is massive speculation mode, people are tossing whatever they can get to stick to the ICO market. There will come a shakedown at some point, that’s when we will see which tech companies emerge as the next Amazon or Facebooks of the world.
My top picks are BTC and ETH for currency. ICO alts are XRP, POWR, TRX, and RED (Launching in a few days). I'll be HODLing those till the end of time. I'm hoping BTC gets segwit2x implemented. It cost to much now of days to transfer, and it's slow as mud. If BTC fails to fix that issue, it's done for as a currency coin.
177 Replies
- 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Originally posted by @Matt R.:
Originally posted by @Jon Q.:
Originally posted by @Matt R.:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Jon in parts of the us most tenant don't even have checking accounts and I think bitcoin would be a tad complicated for them.. heck many have never even been on an airplane..
but will be interesting
Lol, there are landlords that will be accepting crypto in nyc in a matter of days. But that's NYC. I can imagine other places tenants show up with Chucky Cheese tokens and say hey, you said you take crypto for rent...
I don’t know Matt. I would consider accepting crypto now... if you’ve got a large enough operation for it to makes sense, you could probably do so using BitPay and they’d auto convert to USD for you.
So are...
- Expedia.com. Expedia. ...
- Microsoft. Thomson Reuters. ...
- Virgin Galactic. Virgin Galactic. ...
- Overstock.com. Jerritt Clark/WireImage. ...
- Newegg.com. Newegg.com. ...
- eGifter. egifter.com. ...
- Zynga. The Zynga headquarters is pictured in San FranciscoThomson Reuters. ...
- Subway. Courtesy of Subway
https://amp.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-price-8-surprising-places-where-you-can-use-2017-10
In the NYC case there was a PM setting this up for owners and he had a bunch of owners ready to go starting in Feb.
In NYC they already pay in Crypto for private schools etc...culturally speaking it is being adopted faster there as expected perhaps.
I wasn’t aware of that. Interesting... thx!
- Duluth, GA · Member since 2017 · 32 posts · 27 votes8y
Ethereum is the blockchain, and Ether is in fact a cryptocurrency that fuels the network by incentivizing people to support the network (mining).
Again, blockchains I think will be very successful.
Cryptocurrencies used in place of Fiat currency is going to be a slow adoption, I think. I think we'll see govt regulations that stymie its growth as a cash alternative, whether direct or indirect, until sentiment shifts. When block chain succeeds, crypto as Fiat eventually will too, otherwise there's little incentive for miners to mine. However, until blockchains are widely adopted by those with power, I don't think crypto as everyday cash is going to happen.
- Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Ethereum is the blockchain, and Ether is in fact a cryptocurrency that fuels the network by incentivizing people to support the network (mining).
Again, blockchains I think will be very successful.
Cryptocurrencies used in place of Fiat currency is going to be a slow adoption, I think. I think we'll see govt regulations that stymie its growth as a cash alternative, whether direct or indirect, until sentiment shifts. When block chain succeeds, crypto as Fiat eventually will too, otherwise there's little incentive for miners to mine. However, until blockchains are widely adopted by those with power, I don't think crypto as everyday cash is going to happen.
In the short run I don't see crypto replacing cash for everyday purchases like coffee etc...dollars, credit cards already work perfect for that stuff. Right now it just seems like a couple bigger ticket items might work out ok like NYC rents, NYC private schools or in LA you can buy a Telsa or Lambo in bitcoin etc. For the everyday stuff it is not ready for primetime imo.
- 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Originally posted by @Matt R.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Ethereum is the blockchain, and Ether is in fact a cryptocurrency that fuels the network by incentivizing people to support the network (mining).
Again, blockchains I think will be very successful.
Cryptocurrencies used in place of Fiat currency is going to be a slow adoption, I think. I think we'll see govt regulations that stymie its growth as a cash alternative, whether direct or indirect, until sentiment shifts. When block chain succeeds, crypto as Fiat eventually will too, otherwise there's little incentive for miners to mine. However, until blockchains are widely adopted by those with power, I don't think crypto as everyday cash is going to happen.
In the short run I don't see crypto replacing cash for everyday purchases like coffee etc...dollars, credit cards already work perfect for that stuff. Right now it just seems like a couple bigger ticket items might work out ok like NYC rents, NYC private schools or in LA you can buy a Telsa or Lambo in bitcoin etc. For the everyday stuff it is not ready for primetime imo.
I agree. It’ll take some time for most retailers to adopt, although lots of big ones already accepting it. And it’s likely that Amazon will do so shortly or issue their own crypto currency.
FYI: You can use your crypto as collateral for a loan:
SALT Lending
Founder: Shawn Owen
SALT (Secured Automated Lending Technology), a membership-based financial ecosystem based in Denver, Colorado, is launching what is claimed to be the first lending platform to support loans denominated in national currencies collateralized by blockchain assets including bitcoin.
- Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes8y
It is possible google, amazon, facebook start their own crypto and fast. I know google has many millions invested in some crypto tech companies for example and Microsoft too. If you think about it, look how much Jay helps BP, in the crypto world, he would actually make 8 to 10k a month providing that same content. Same would go with a popular facebooker in theory.
- 8yMike CumbieBusiness MemberREALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
Kodak just announced they were doing their own crypto currency to help copyrite images online and have people pay for usage using their currency.
- 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Originally posted by @Chris Seveney:
The American banker article talks about
A blockchain could also facilitate crowdsourced mortgages. Instead of taking out a $200,000 loan from one lender, a borrower could get $2,000 each from 1,000 investors
- yeah and how would that work for lien position. I would love to be in position #999 or 1,000.
For this to be implemented it would need to be regulated very strongly which means the US government would need to write up the regulations. How long do you think that would take?
While it appears to look like a great idea, I still think it’s over a decade away. Flying cars would be great too and we have talked about them for 25 years and where are we with them
Some businesses yes blockchain may be functional and efficient but I have severe doubts on getting the lending industry and local jurisdictions doing this. Counties just started allowing electronic assignment recordings never mind moving to something this advanced
Not saying it’s not a great technology as I don’t know enough about it- but it has a ton of hurdles
Flying cars...2 Years...
- Investor · Morrisville, NC · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 673 votes8y
There is no stopping the crypto-craze anymore. ... Just like in the dotcom years, when some people thought the web would never make it because of wide adoption and security concerns ... a few years from now, we will be talking about it ... like we talk about the web, e-commerce, ... etc.
I believe the big doubters should really ask themselves the question whether Blockchain Technology is on solid technological (and fundamental footing). And the answer is clearly yes across the board. Of course, there will be a lot of hype around it. Everyone can't wait to talk themselves up ... However, there is also a lot of solid backing based on people who have experience in these areas. The hype should call for caution, but not for dismissal of the idea. The Blockchain Technology is here to stay. And its impact will be transformative.
The future will be shaped by technology, business , government and of course the people. My biggest concerns is whether this might become too big to fail. We have all seen what happens, when something becomes too big too fail. How does it get "fixed" without causing John Does on the street to lose everything? We still don't know who hacked the DAO in June 2016.
- Real Estate Investor · Encinitas, CA · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
@Mike Cumbie You win BP for today! Nothing is more interesting to me that "do an ICO" and have it (somehow) cause a 44% jump in Kodak's (the entire business) stock price. I still having figured out what happens to the value of the ICO if Kodak declared bankruptcy in 6 months. Maybe Toys'R'us should make up a use-case for cryptocurrency and have an ICO...
I think there are interesting uses for blockchain and easy things to start with like notarization. But I think the *value* of it will first be expressed in 3rd world countries. Places where you have to legitimately worry about record keeping for real estate, trust in the government, etc. The U.S. process for recording real estate might be "clunky" and kind of a pain but it's far different than issues the 3rd world faces in terms of social trust and the reliability of legal institutions.
I think you also make a pretty salient point about payment today via credit card. There really isn't much "friction" in consumer process to get rid of. It's actually *harder* to use Apple Pay with my thumbprint than it is swipe my Visa. I do think there could be value in higher dollar transactions where someone is buying something for $5,000 and the merchant doesn't want to get dinged for the AMEX charge. You do enough of those transactions and it becomes "real money" and the consumer might opt for a 1.5% discount to use Bitcoin over AMEX. I know small business's I've deal with have sometimes given me a small discount if I pay with a check instead of credit card because of those fees. But that's way different than buying lunch.
That said, if I was selling Bentley's for a living I don't know if I'd be too stoked to use any currency proxy that routinely swings +/- 10% on a daily basis.
- 8yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Matt R.:
It is possible google, amazon, facebook start their own crypto and fast. I know google has many millions invested in some crypto tech companies for example and Microsoft too. If you think about it, look how much Jay helps BP, in the crypto world, he would actually make 8 to 10k a month providing that same content. Same would go with a popular facebooker in theory.
boy I like the sound of 8 to 10k a month for my time on BP ... bout time this was recognized and monetized !!!
- Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2017 · 129 posts · 62 votes8y
Originally posted by @Jon Q.:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
@Jon Q. I suppose what will happen is its just another consultant I hire.. just like I hire someone to do my tax's I will need someone to explain how all this works..
No, Not solely that. This will fundamentally change the way you conduct your business. Imagine when you buy a property having no middleman but the parties can transact and you can watch as the closing progresses through the block chain. Imagine taking payments directly from tenants using crypto currency with money being received (note waiting to be “posted”) within 4 seconds, no banks involved and little to no fees. Imagine when you are developing properties you don’t need to go to a lender to raise debt or equity capital, but you raise capital through an initial coin offering, similar to crowdfunding, where small investors globally can invest very small amounts because it is so cheap to facilitate the transaction (no lender to drive up fees).
Crowdfunding via ICO in the US without being registered with the SEC is illegal, just fyi.
- Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2017 · 129 posts · 62 votes8y
Originally posted by @Henri Meli:
The greatest thing about it is ... it is not regulated. In theory, No government intervention, consensus rules.
The biggest issue with this thing is ... it is not regulated. Just imagine a few wealthy and ill-intentioned powerful people (or even governments via third parties) discover a flaw in the system or "buy" enough control to manipulate it one way or another (yes, it is possible).
no, that is absolutely not possible or even close to being probable.
- Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2017 · 129 posts · 62 votes8y
Originally posted by @Joseph ODonovan:
To all the Cryptocurrency advocates; what is so wrong with cash? what about the current banking system? credit markets? debt and equity markets? online banking? EFT's? None of these systems have failed me. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. There are way too many Gordon Gekko's chasing Bitcoin, .......and we know how that story ends.did you really just say what's so wrong with credit markets? and cash? and online banking? and... and...
i don't even know where to start with this.
- 8yMike CumbieBusiness MemberREALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
I currently live in the Rochester market which is the home of Kodak. You cannot walk down the street, sit in a bar, talk to parents at a playground, attend a ice cream social, help pull a car out of a ditch without hearing how their parent, older aunt/uncle etc worked for Kodak. You are hard pressed to find someone working there today.
If somehow declares Bankruptcy........ AGAIN..... Restructures.... :)
The list of technology patents/items they owned and gave up is staggering: digital cameras, online photo transfer......
I am no professor of the future or speculator any means. But in my silly uneducated opinion... If Kodak is buying into Crypto Currency..... I personally consider it a gift card for Amazon, Google, Kodak, Olive Garden, Kohls, The McBucks I got in a stocking as a kid to buy a happy meal.
Today everyone has gift cards, tomorrow everyone will have even more secure gift cards to their business using blockchain technology.
You bring up another excellent point about third world countries, because if we are running a global system there are plenty of places that have to be brought up to a standard.
- 8yMike CumbieBusiness MemberREALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
"boy I like the sound of 8 to 10k a month for my time on BP ... bout time this was recognized and monetized !!!"
All we have to do is get Oregon, New York, Paris, Sidney. Kristiansand and Prague to agree on a standard and we are set. Can we split a bit of that 8K?
- Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Nothing but tulips and Retsyn.
- Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes8y
@Mike Cumbie, you wrote "The list of technology patents/items they (Kodak) owned and gave up is staggering: digital cameras, online photo transfer......".
Here's a cautionary tale: "The Kodak Tower, a 19 story skyscraper completed in 1914 was Rochester’s tallest building for more than 50 years until it was overshadowed by another edifice in the late 1960s. That building was the Xerox Square Tower." [namedropping.wordpress]
The reason? Kodak could not see past the cost of making a plain paper copier, so, rejected the opportunity to get in at the ground floor when offered!
The solution that Kodak missed? Leasing, rather than selling, the not-yet-made 914 Copier!
So yes Mike, that's just one tale of lost opportunity that sailed past Kodak back in the day.
No doubt, Xerox now have their own too.
The lesson for all of us? Are we looking for opportunity, and ready to grasp it when we see it?...
- 8yMike CumbieBusiness MemberREALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
Hehe yeah they have their share as well. The networked computer with a GUI interface and mouse that printed exactly what was on the screen that they let Steve Jobs in to view before Apple was around.
- Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2017 · 129 posts · 62 votes8y
Originally posted by @Mike Cumbie:
Hehe yeah they have their share as well. The networked computer with a GUI interface and mouse that printed exactly what was on the screen that they let Steve Jobs in to view before Apple was around.
wow! is this true? is this in a book or something? that's incredible.
Kodak is a great example about how an established household name failed to innovate and ultimately died. I wouldn't be surprised if blockchain ends up being the black swan to the stock market that everyone has been waiting for since the last crash.
- 8yMike CumbieBusiness MemberREALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
Yup, do some reading up on Palo Alto Research Center and Steve Jobs visit. There are two sides to it. Some say "he just innovated it, Apples 1 button mouse was completely different than the 3 button mouse he saw during the tour" and "The GUI demonstrated that day opened up a prompt window, nothing at all like the application itself launching in the MAC". It was actually shown in quite a few documentaries.
It's a good read and bit of History.
- Investor · Nipomo, CA · Member since 2014 · 366 posts · 401 votes8y
@Marshall Hooper funny that you mention Kodak. They recently announced they would be jumping into the crypto game with an ICO. Not sure if this will save them, but thought it was interesting, at least.
- 8yMindy JensenPro MemberBiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
@Mike Cumbie, any day you can quote Jurrasic Park is a good day.
- Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2018 · 19 posts · 4 votes8y
@Jon S. - To respond to your original post: I think blockchain technology could solve the issue of trust in the real estate industry. There are so many areas in this business that desperately NEED it. Think of all these courses, workshops, mastermind groups, etc. claiming to hold all the secrets to successful real estate investing. The organizers cite their prior success to convince you to buy their product/service. However, there is no way to verify those claims. If only there was a public record of those deals/transactions (a ledger of sorts) to reference, it would help honest teachers and mentors to show credibility and kick the scam-artists out of the market. That's definitely something I'm struggling with as a new real estate investor. And while I think I can identify scam artists, it's hard for me to find someone legitimate and trustworthy.
@Henri Meli - completely agree with you! To add to that, cryptocurrency is only a tiny part of the blockchain tech industry, which we are going to heavily rely on in our daily lives much sooner than most people think.
- 8yTom GimerBusiness MemberDMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Marshall Hooper:
Originally posted by @Jon Q.:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
@Jon Q. I suppose what will happen is its just another consultant I hire.. just like I hire someone to do my tax's I will need someone to explain how all this works..
No, Not solely that. This will fundamentally change the way you conduct your business. Imagine when you buy a property having no middleman but the parties can transact and you can watch as the closing progresses through the block chain. Imagine taking payments directly from tenants using crypto currency with money being received (note waiting to be “posted”) within 4 seconds, no banks involved and little to no fees. Imagine when you are developing properties you don’t need to go to a lender to raise debt or equity capital, but you raise capital through an initial coin offering, similar to crowdfunding, where small investors globally can invest very small amounts because it is so cheap to facilitate the transaction (no lender to drive up fees).
Crowdfunding via ICO in the US without being registered with the SEC is illegal, just fyi.
This reminds me of the marijuana industry. Silicon Valley says it's legal so it must be true.
Let's see how that works out.
Gimer Law516 Reviews - Real Estate Investor · Encinitas, CA · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
@Mike Cumbie For what it's worth, I do think there's a massive difference between a gift card and Bitcoin and even a larger difference between Bitcoin and buying into an ICO. Some people are using Bitcoin to basically transfer money and if "everyone has Bitcoin" then it's a fairly easy to use system. When my Bitcoin goes up, yours does to, and it's ultimately tied back to a "dollar" so there's some ubiquity when it comes to price. ICOs (currently) freak the heck out of me because mostly it's akin to "let me buy an Amazon gift card today for $10 because I think Amazon gift cards will be in high demand and be worth $50 tomorrow!" It sounds hyperbolic but it's not like ICOs haven't jumped 500% in value. So what happens then? Does the Amazon ICO "coin" price fluctuate hour-to-hour on their website? Does the McCoin buy a Big Mac today but if people decide to eat health does it only buy a lowly cheeseburger tomorrow? I've seen the value proposition on one of the real estate ICOs that you should pre-buy tokens today because they will be worth more in a 3 months and that's when you can use your tokens to buy a portion of a real estate asset.
That said, I think there is a great future for some use cases for blockchain. I have to think there are great use cases to use some kind of blockchain-ish way to store "value" and to "trade" that stored value. I do think those "stored value" ideas will only get super useful when you have ubiquity. If there isn't ubiquity you have to have parallel systems (for dollars and coins) or you turn off a potential buyer. And the savvy buyer will probably sit there with a Bitcoin wallet open, looking at the spot price, and then has to decide: Do I want to buy my hamburger today with a McCoin or with my Visa?
And the weird part is that I know people do it today when they are on vacation. They'll buy in dollars vs. another currency based on the value of the currency. I've seen them punching numbers into their calculator to see what it "costs". I could see some fun end-of-the-night conversations at Olive Garden about how to split the bill between cash, Bitcoin, and OliveCoin! After, of course, everyone has had 38 breadsticks...
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