Blockchain real estate brainstorm
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Levi T.Pro Member
Rental Property Investor · Tucson AZ / Nice FR / Washington DC · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votesWe are seeing a lot of hype around using blockchain on stuff that does not need it, but if those startups want to be hot and sexy, you need blockchain in the game to turn heads. ICOs are the new IPOs for all startups. There is a reckoning coming for all those altcoins that are launching with zero value as a business that backing it.
As for what blockchain will do for real estate, counties that adopt it can stop dealing with clouded titles as blockchain will let us insure the owner on record is the owner, once a property is recorded to the blockchain. It wont be hard for them to adopt, it's basically a centralized BC ran by the county. It will also mean faster transfer and recoding.
I only see 2 futures for crypto:
As Currency: It lets people move money freely, cheaper, and it also provides them an exit out of their countries currency without a stock broker. When it comes to the currency side of things, the rest of the world will come first before America as my country is not like Grease or Zimbabwe in that respect yet. This market won’t have a lot of players, we don’t need 1,000 crypto currencies, only 2-3 really. I think our currency players are already defined in this respect, they just need time to stabilize more.
As Technology: On the other side of things, people are issuing coins for startup capital, if they are successful then your coin is worth more, this is what’s driving the value of these coins., from there you can buy or sell it on a open exchange, or maybe you can trade it in for stock at some point if they make the leap to a publicly traded company (I'm speculating on that last bit). It allows everyday people to get in on public offering without having to be a millionaire, it also allows companies to stay private and avoid all the regulation and red tape. Hopefully the SEC does not stomp on that and cut us out of the ICO market. Lots of regulation is headed our way in 2018 for America.
Right now we are is massive speculation mode, people are tossing whatever they can get to stick to the ICO market. There will come a shakedown at some point, that’s when we will see which tech companies emerge as the next Amazon or Facebooks of the world.
My top picks are BTC and ETH for currency. ICO alts are XRP, POWR, TRX, and RED (Launching in a few days). I'll be HODLing those till the end of time. I'm hoping BTC gets segwit2x implemented. It cost to much now of days to transfer, and it's slow as mud. If BTC fails to fix that issue, it's done for as a currency coin.
177 Replies
- Wholesaler · Waldorf, MD · Member since 2015 · 459 posts · 245 votes8y
@Account Closed, yes there is no stopping the "crypto-craze", built on block-chain technology. Here is the issue I see that is being overlooked by crypto promoters. Amazon, Kodak, issuing it's own crypto-currency is VASTLY DIFFERENT than what is currently out there - Bitcoin, Litecoin, Ethereum, etc.
Amazon provides an actual service/product, just like Kodak, or Google. If they were to issue crypto-currencies, their currencies are backed by an actual asset. For example, 1 Amazon coin could be worth 5 books, which in turn could be worth $25.
Bitcoin is backed by an "idea", promoted by a bunch of nerds back in the day over 10+ years ago when I first was exposed to it. Back then as it is now, we were asking "What is bitcoin, how do you use it, why is it worth something?" Bitcoin/Litecoin & all the other coins are speculative. In my opinion an internet Ponzi scheme. Why has bitcoin increased from $800 to ~ $13K(for right now)? There is nothing you can point to that has caused it to increase other than MANIA! Just a year or 2 ago it was hovering between $200-$500. Trying to equate it to a commodity is laughable. After all there are actual pork bellies.
I see this as nothing different than the dot.com boom & bust or the RE collapse in 2004/05. When you have people looking to "invest" in cryptos just from attending a webinar, but yet can't explain what it is or why it exists.... I see a big problem. Sure there are people making money, for now, but there will be plenty holding the bag when it crashes.
My 2 cents.
PS - not to mention it's relatively easier to steal bitcoins out of a "internet wallet" from someone than it is to steal a dollar out of my own wallet in my pants. Both need skill, but at least with someone pickpocketing me, there is a chance that: I may notice or feel someone doing it, there is CCTV video of the thief,...unlike crypto-wallets. When your internet money is gone it is gone, unless the amount is high enough (can you say millions) or the individual/company/organization is important enough, that one of our government agencies gets involved.
- Duluth, GA · Member since 2017 · 32 posts · 27 votes8y
@James Green I think we're on the same page. You make a good point that Amazon or Kodak issuing a token built on blockchain vs. Bitcoin as a currency is different because of what it's backed by.
To use my example of selling a house for bitcoins, the substantial majority of people would go about that transaction by thinking "What is my house worth in dollars?" and convert that figure to Bitcoin, because they get paid in dollars, their daily transactions are in dollars, and they were born and raised on dollars. Until salaries and groceries are in Bitcoin, I don't think cryptocurrency can hold anything but speculative value.
Disclaimer: I'm not aware of the details of Amazon or Kodak's crypto plans.
But, if a business like Amazon or Kodak would allow you to purchase tokens for a standardized dollar amount in order to process orders via a blockchain (ensuring greater security within their system), that's completely different than those companies issuing cryptocurrency. We have bus tokens, but they aren't currency by definition - they have a regulated dollar value and a regulated exchange value (1 fare) and are only backed by faith in the issuing company. What they provide is a service (convenience), just like a token over a blockchain provides a service.
I think you get it. I hope everyone else does. Actually, I hope I'm getting it too.
Blockchain is golden.
Bitcoin and crypto... I think will face a tumultuous future and will take a very long time to be accepted and adopted as actual currency. That's why I'd recommend landlords and sellers avoid it as a means of payment.
As a VERY small time amateur investor, yes, I do have a small portfolio of cryptocurrencies. Fundamentally, I like the idea of a decentralized currency whose value isn't tied to a nation's S&P credit rating and speculative future. That's because I'm a hippie who believes in free nationality and equality. But realistically I think there will be stifling regulation for a very long time, if not indefinitely to the point of failure. The real reason that I own crypto right now is because I'm playing the market for huge returns; which is something the hippie side of me thinks is unethical, but I have loans to pay.
I made a point in one of my posts that banks are adopting blockchain networks to secure their transactions. Banks have (arguably) the most power in terms of determining fiscal policy in the US and most other countries, so I see them as the gatekeepers of cryptocurrency's future. If banks support the use of the Ethereum blockchain, then they have to also support the value of Ether, which "fuels" the network by giving miners (the people who own the decentralized servers that process the data) an incentive to keep on mining and running the data. But, if banks develop a private blockchain, or a government offers a federally-backed blockchain, then they don't have to use Ethereum and support Ether. That subverts the whole point of Ether (that it's distributed), but there are many centralized blockchains already in existence, and I don't think most people know the difference. There wouldn't be any backlash in the public if the gov't said that Ether was outlawed, but USD-B ("USD-Blockchain", a crypto I just made up) could be used instead. People would be happy that their dollars were being transacted more securely, mostly unaware of the fact that they weren't using a decentralized blockchain. Most people have no idea what the difference is. And, despite what some may think, most people still trust the US government (with a S&P AA+ credit rating), which is why most people still aren't asking to be paid in Yen.
I just don't see a future for crypto as an alternative to dollars. I don't think I'm being a Luddite, I think it's realistic. - 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Matt R.:
It is possible google, amazon, facebook start their own crypto and fast. I know google has many millions invested in some crypto tech companies for example and Microsoft too. If you think about it, look how much Jay helps BP, in the crypto world, he would actually make 8 to 10k a month providing that same content. Same would go with a popular facebooker in theory.
boy I like the sound of 8 to 10k a month for my time on BP ... bout time this was recognized and monetized !!!
I agree Jay. I’m sure you’ve clocked many more hours than I, but it would be good to see a clear crypto currency return in our time. FYI: the website Steemit is already doing this! Paid in crypto for contributing content.
- 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Originally posted by @Tom Gimer:
Originally posted by @Marshall Hooper:
Originally posted by @Jon Q.:
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
@Jon Q. I suppose what will happen is its just another consultant I hire.. just like I hire someone to do my tax's I will need someone to explain how all this works..
No, Not solely that. This will fundamentally change the way you conduct your business. Imagine when you buy a property having no middleman but the parties can transact and you can watch as the closing progresses through the block chain. Imagine taking payments directly from tenants using crypto currency with money being received (note waiting to be “posted”) within 4 seconds, no banks involved and little to no fees. Imagine when you are developing properties you don’t need to go to a lender to raise debt or equity capital, but you raise capital through an initial coin offering, similar to crowdfunding, where small investors globally can invest very small amounts because it is so cheap to facilitate the transaction (no lender to drive up fees).
Crowdfunding via ICO in the US without being registered with the SEC is illegal, just fyi.
This reminds me of the marijuana industry. Silicon Valley says it's legal so it must be true.
Let's see how that works out.
😂 that’s true too man. There’s weed in the streets here in Berkeley.
- 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
@James Green I think we're on the same page. You make a good point that Amazon or Kodak issuing a token built on blockchain vs. Bitcoin as a currency is different because of what it's backed by.
To use my example of selling a house for bitcoins, the substantial majority of people would go about that transaction by thinking "What is my house worth in dollars?" and convert that figure to Bitcoin, because they get paid in dollars, their daily transactions are in dollars, and they were born and raised on dollars. Until salaries and groceries are in Bitcoin, I don't think cryptocurrency can hold anything but speculative value.
Disclaimer: I'm not aware of the details of Amazon or Kodak's crypto plans.
But, if a business like Amazon or Kodak would allow you to purchase tokens for a standardized dollar amount in order to process orders via a blockchain (ensuring greater security within their system), that's completely different than those companies issuing cryptocurrency. We have bus tokens, but they aren't currency by definition - they have a regulated dollar value and a regulated exchange value (1 fare) and are only backed by faith in the issuing company. What they provide is a service (convenience), just like a token over a blockchain provides a service.
I think you get it. I hope everyone else does. Actually, I hope I'm getting it too.
Blockchain is golden.
Bitcoin and crypto... I think will face a tumultuous future and will take a very long time to be accepted and adopted as actual currency. That's why I'd recommend landlords and sellers avoid it as a means of payment.
As a VERY small time amateur investor, yes, I do have a small portfolio of cryptocurrencies. Fundamentally, I like the idea of a decentralized currency whose value isn't tied to a nation's S&P credit rating and speculative future. That's because I'm a hippie who believes in free nationality and equality. But realistically I think there will be stifling regulation for a very long time, if not indefinitely to the point of failure. The real reason that I own crypto right now is because I'm playing the market for huge returns; which is something the hippie side of me thinks is unethical, but I have loans to pay.
I made a point in one of my posts that banks are adopting blockchain networks to secure their transactions. Banks have (arguably) the most power in terms of determining fiscal policy in the US and most other countries, so I see them as the gatekeepers of cryptocurrency's future. If banks support the use of the Ethereum blockchain, then they have to also support the value of Ether, which "fuels" the network by giving miners (the people who own the decentralized servers that process the data) an incentive to keep on mining and running the data. But, if banks develop a private blockchain, or a government offers a federally-backed blockchain, then they don't have to use Ethereum and support Ether. That subverts the whole point of Ether (that it's distributed), but there are many centralized blockchains already in existence, and I don't think most people know the difference. There wouldn't be any backlash in the public if the gov't said that Ether was outlawed, but USD-B ("USD-Blockchain", a crypto I just made up) could be used instead. People would be happy that their dollars were being transacted more securely, mostly unaware of the fact that they weren't using a decentralized blockchain. Most people have no idea what the difference is. And, despite what some may think, most people still trust the US government (with a S&P AA+ credit rating), which is why most people still aren't asking to be paid in Yen.
I just don't see a future for crypto as an alternative to dollars. I don't think I'm being a Luddite, I think it's realistic.I do not agree with your last point. It’s happening now, but I think it’s likely our future will involve multiple crypto currencies for many things. FYI: Countries and governments will move away from paper currencies for many reasons (cheaper, faster, etc). And of all that doesn’t convince you, you can now buy fried chicken with your crypto:
- Duluth, GA · Member since 2017 · 32 posts · 27 votes8y
Originally posted by :
I do not agree with your last point. It’s happening now, but I think it’s likely our future will involve multiple crypto currencies for many things. FYI: Countries and governments will move away from paper currencies for many reasons (cheaper, faster, etc). And of all that doesn’t convince you, you can now buy fried chicken with your crypto:
I can see gov't converting currency to blockchain the way I described above. This is just my opinion, and all of the current hype about different companies allowing for payments with crypto just doesn't change my mind, I think I've layed out my reasons why.
I wouldn't buy chicken with Bitcoin currently. I LOVE fried chicken (hello, Georgia), but currently my Bitcoin wallet is still appreciating nicely whereas my drowsy dollar bills are doing nothing good, so I'd rather trade in my dollars for chicken and keep my BTC. No offense to fried chickens everywhere, you are beautiful and worth every Bitcoin, but I have to do me.
Edit to add: If my salary was paid in BTC, then yes, I'd be happy to spend them on everyday things. Reason given in previous post. - Duluth, GA · Member since 2017 · 32 posts · 27 votes8y
BTW, @Jon Q.,
Just saw your post w/ the World of Cryptocurrencies image, and it does have me thinking. The fact that Japan, Australia, etc. are accepting BTC as cash is interesting. Maybe you're right. It could go like internet infrastructures in that the gov't regulates the privately-installed infrastructure very loosely, but has't put in place its own internet infrastructure (analogous to the gov't starting USD-B in my earlier post).
I just imagine that the power of the Fed is pervasive. USD is a currency infrastructure that we already have in place - there was no internet infrastructure that private companies tried to subvert w/ their own. But, USD via blockchain is NOT an infrastructure that we have in place. I think it'll be int to see how the gov't chooses to regulate crypto ... the case of private entity vs. gov't entity is something we've seen many times, and it tends to get messy. - Real Estate Investor · Encinitas, CA · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
@Account Closed I think you also run into some challenges when you look at motivations. Is KFC doing this because they "believe in blockchain" because they "believe in Bitcoin" or are they doing it because they "believe in marketing?" I'd guess "Option 3" but what do I know, I don't work for the Colonel. The rush to crypto is all well and good when it's fueled by speculative returns (i.e. "my Bitcoin wallet is still appreciating nicely") but will people buy more Bitcoin if it drops to $5,000? Maybe...but why? How many people bought Ether for the sole reason that "it was cheaper"? A lot... Why is Ether up 7% today? Deere is up because of activist investors, Ether is up because...well few people can answer that. Or, to use the KFC analogy, why is Ether worth an extra piece of chicken in that KFC bucket today but not yesterday?
I'm hungry...
- Duluth, GA · Member since 2017 · 32 posts · 27 votes8y
Originally posted by @Andrew Johnson:
@Account Closed I think you also run into some challenges when you look at motivations. Is KFC doing this because they "believe in blockchain" because they "believe in Bitcoin" or are they doing it because they "believe in marketing?" I'd guess "Option 3" but what do I know, I don't work for the Colonel. The rush to crypto is all well and good when it's fueled by speculative returns (i.e. "my Bitcoin wallet is still appreciating nicely") but will people buy more Bitcoin if it drops to $5,000? Maybe...but why? How many people bought Ether for the sole reason that "it was cheaper"? A lot... Why is Ether up 7% today? Deere is up because of activist investors, Ether is up because...well few people can answer that. Or, to use the KFC analogy, why is Ether worth an extra piece of chicken in that KFC bucket today but not yesterday?
I'm hungry...
I hear you, I think we're on the same page.
And me too... On my way to Popeye's
- Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2017 · 129 posts · 62 votes8y
Stop thinking about blockchain as a currency and start thinking about it more as an asset. i'm not trying to be a jerk, but there are so many misinformed comments on this thread that it's made it very difficult for me to comment here because i get a sort of "analysis paralysis" from wanting to respond to everything, but then not wanting to respond at all. I know this is a new space for many of you, relatively speaking, it's new to everyone. But the reason I first started studying this space was because I saw where the "smart money" was going and I knew I wanted to be a part of it.
Without getting too much into it, the best analogy that I can come up with for you guys would be to relate this to real estate...
Imagine you could go back 500 years and buy land anywhere in the United States that you want? That's what blockchain is. It's also almost like being able to own stake in the internet.
It's likely that 98% of all of these new "coins" will be worthless in the next 5 years, yes. But the 2% that remain will have an impact on EVERYTHING we do. And similar to using the internet, you won't have to know how it works in order to use it.
Many people believe that bitcoin and ethereum will likely be part of the 2% that remain. Mainly due to their current maturity and/or dev support. Think about how .com was one of the original domain. It might have been clunky at the start or more expensive, but how many .net or .io's do you see out there? The majority of what we use now is .com.
I personally have no faith in bitcoin except for the fact that it was the first. My horse for this race is ethereum because I believe in the developer support behind it.
I equate owning ethereum to being able to buy real estate in Manhatten in 1800. The amount of applications that are in line to be built on top of this network is similar to me leasing out my land to someone wanting to build out high rise condo's and office buildings. And as space becomes more and more scarce, the amount I charge for my land goes higher and higher.
Others might disagree with me and want to put their stake in something else besides ethereum. But each investment you make is going to be like buying real estate. That land that you purchase will either some day be Manhatten, Fort Worth or Norman, Oklahoma.
I understand that this might make no sense to many of you because I feel you still do not fully understand the capabilities or use-cases for this technology. But your first step is to stop thinking of it as a currency or a replacement for the USD. You also need to understand that this is not a USA "fad or phenomenon. This is a GLOBAL phenomenon. There are at least 20 countries in the world that can support a $500b market cap for crypto. And 10 of them are more technologically advanced than the USA and the majority of them would love to stick it to us and our globally dominated USD currency. You still think this is a bubble? We could see a $10 TRILLION market cap before I finish....this....sentence....nope, didn't happen. But it was possible!
- Realtor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 857 votes8y
Yeh...I'm not seeing how Blockchain and Property are coming hand in hand. You going to be able to evict a tenant using blockchain? You going to make sure tenants pay on time using blockchain.
Hip.property has a cool ICO for tapping into equity using blockchain but good luck taking their idea once they launch. Rentberry TRASH, BEE token ripping of AIR BNB.Just keep real estate traditional, off the blockchain. Been doing great so far.
Maybe the title work can be done with blockchain BUT Fracton already beat you with turning all documents digital.
- Realtor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 857 votes8y
Also forgot that searching the blockchain (if title records ever get on the blockchain) is also good but theres already a coin for that, Nebulas (NAS)
- Dr · Danville, VA - Virginia · Member since 2016 · 42 posts · 56 votes8y
@ Jon S. Cryptocurrencies are def a force to consider when the government begins to accept them. 3 states are currently considering accepting bitcoin payments of taxes. Utah, New York, and New Hampshire are all in the process of ramping up to accept bitcoins.At least three states in the US may soon allow bitcoin to be used to pay for taxes... "The State of New Hampshire, New York and Utah have been considering introducing a bill that would make this possible. Each of these states have come up with their own slightly different versions on why this could be a great option and what would be the benefits" http://bitcoinist.com/us-states-plans-enable-tax-payments-bitcoin/
- 8yIan IppolitoBusiness MemberInvestor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
Originally posted by @Jon Q.:
Originally posted by @Ian Ippolito:
Jon: Ian, There are two kinds of people in the world.
There are those who are rigid. They resist change, continue the old ways of doing things, and eventually get left behind as the economy and the real estate business evolves.
Then there are those who are life-long learners. They are flexible and they adapt. They position themselves in the information flow, absorb information from as many sources as possible, and are on a never-ending search for new ways to improve themselves, their business, and their ability to provide a greater level of service to their customers and value to other fellow human beings.
Ignore this technological innovation at your peril my friend. The world will leave you behind.
Ian: LOL Thanks for the "friendly" warning about ignoring technical innovation. I'm a software developer who created one of the first open-source sites and I knew about blockchain and cyber currencies 10 years ago.
Jon: Congrats on ”creating one of the first open-source sites and I knew about blockchain and cyber currencies”. I hope that was a successful project for you.After your previous "advice" that was actually an insult, the congratulations don't sound super sincere. But I'll assume that it was...and say thank you. (It actually was very successful and you can even look me up on Wikipedia to read about it). ;)
By the way, this popped up in my feed this morning from the Washington Post. As if cyber currencies don't have enough crippling problems (rampant theft, outright ICO fraud, out-of-control volatility, soaring transaction and unacceptable processing delays)...here's yet another huge fly in the ointment: pain-in-the-back-side tax liability.
Cyber currencies were promised to be a libertarian paradise and tax-free. Anyone with any sense knew that couldn't possibly be true and you can't cheat the IRS. Sure enough: if you use a cyber currency to buy coffee, and it went up in value since yesterday, you owe taxes on it. So let that sink in: every time you use bitcoin as actual money, you're going to need to track it, so you can pay tax on it. Exactly who is going to pull out their spreadsheet every time they want to use a cyber currency is real money?And before you say you don't have to worry about it because the IRS will never catch you, here's the latest. The IRS is suing the cyber currency platforms to get the names of the people who are avoiding taxes, and then is going to go after them. Hope you're not one of those people who hasn't paid up.
The Real Estate Crowdfunding Review - Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2017 · 129 posts · 62 votes8y
Originally posted by @Ian Ippolito:
Originally posted by @Jon Q.:
Originally posted by @Ian Ippolito:
Jon: Ian, There are two kinds of people in the world.
There are those who are rigid. They resist change, continue the old ways of doing things, and eventually get left behind as the economy and the real estate business evolves.
Then there are those who are life-long learners. They are flexible and they adapt. They position themselves in the information flow, absorb information from as many sources as possible, and are on a never-ending search for new ways to improve themselves, their business, and their ability to provide a greater level of service to their customers and value to other fellow human beings.
Ignore this technological innovation at your peril my friend. The world will leave you behind.
Ian: LOL Thanks for the "friendly" warning about ignoring technical innovation. I'm a software developer who created one of the first open-source sites and I knew about blockchain and cyber currencies 10 years ago.
Jon: Congrats on ”creating one of the first open-source sites and I knew about blockchain and cyber currencies”. I hope that was a successful project for you.After your previous "advice" that was actually an insult, the congratulations don't sound super sincere. But I'll assume that it was...and say thank you. (It actually was very successful and you can even look me up on Wikipedia to read about it). ;)
By the way, this popped up in my feed this morning from the Washington Post. As if cyber currencies don't have enough crippling problems (rampant theft, outright ICO fraud, out-of-control volatility, soaring transaction and unacceptable processing delays)...here's yet another huge fly in the ointment: pain-in-the-back-side tax liability.
Cyber currencies were promised to be a libertarian paradise and tax-free. Anyone with any sense knew that couldn't possibly be true and you can't cheat the IRS. Sure enough: if you use a cyber currency to buy coffee, and it went up in value since yesterday, you owe taxes on it. So let that sink in: every time you use bitcoin as actual money, you're going to need to track it, so you can pay tax on it. Exactly who is going to pull out their spreadsheet every time they want to use a cyber currency is real money?And before you say you don't have to worry about it because the IRS will never catch you, here's the latest. The IRS is suing the cyber currency platforms to get the names of the people who are avoiding taxes, and then is going to go after them. Hope you're not one of those people who hasn't paid up.
Ironically, the reason it will be a pain is because Bitcoin and it's brethren are not actually treated as "currencies" by the IRS. The IRS treats it as property and therefore a tax event triggers every time you sell or use it. This will change if the a new tax bill passes proposing that all purchases under $600 are treated similar to foreign currency and thus will not create a tax event because you bought $4 coffee with bitcoin.
And again, this is a US issue, not a global one. Bitcoin, assuming the goal in your eyes is to be a currency, can exist without US adoption. In fact, despite it's volatility (which is not as big of a deal as people want to make it), Bitcoin is an excellent hedge against inflation in corrupt countries where currencies are easily manipulated by Gov't.
- 8yIan IppolitoBusiness MemberInvestor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
Bitcoin currently has three good uses: allowing drug dealers and other criminals to transact easily, allowing people under oppressive governments to get their money out of local currency, and a means for speculators (not investors) to try to make money.
All of those people are willing to put up with volatility, and for the speculators the volatility is actually a plus.
However, the view of the future that Jon is selling is one where cyber currencies are used in real estate transactions and for making loans and deposits. In situations like that we are *definitely* talking about the average Joe using cyber currency as real money. And no average Joe is going to touch it with the volatility. Nor will they touch it with all the rampant theft and the inability for even many technical people to secure it. Nor with the fact that it can take over a day to settle ( Coffee gets pretty cold by then). Nor because of the fact that it’s like $29 per transaction to buy that coffee and getting worse, etc. etc.
The Real Estate Crowdfunding Review - Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2017 · 129 posts · 62 votes8y
Originally posted by @Ian Ippolito:
Bitcoin currently has three good uses: allowing drug dealers and other criminals to transact easily, allowing people under oppressive governments to get their money out of local currency, and a means for speculators (not investors) to try to make money.
All of those people are willing to put up with volatility, and for the speculators the volatility is actually a plus.
However, the view of the future that Jon is selling is one where cyber currencies are used in real estate transactions and for making loans and deposits. In situations like that we are *definitely* talking about the average Joe using cyber currency as real money. And no average Joe is going to touch it with the volatility. Nor will they touch it with all the rampant theft and the inability for even many technical people to secure it. Nor with the fact that it can take over a day to settle ( Coffee gets pretty cold by then). Nor because of the fact that it’s like $29 per transaction to buy that coffee and getting worse, etc. etc.
"drug dealers"
Dad? Is that you?
"get their money out of oppressive governments"
yes, which gives it an intrinsic value in the trillions
"speculators (not investors)"
those are two of the same things. i think you might be trying to differentiate between a "trader" and an "investor". Either way, block chain can very much be an investment to those who believe in it long term.
I actually think you're not following what Jon is saying about how block chain will be used in real estate going forward. The applications he is speaking about are not effected by the volatility of bitcoin or whatever other crypto-asset you've read about. He's speaking about blockchain in it's use case as a distributed ledger. And even if the average Joe one days uses bitcoin to purchase a coffee. He would use an application that converts his USD to bitcoin for him. Therefore he has no "volatility risk". Bitcoin (or whatever crypto you want to replace that with) will be used as the vehicle for exchange. And the settlement times have nothing to do with the exchange for goods. Not even credit card payments are settled immediately when a purchase is made and goods exchange hands. The rest of that last paragraph is in reference to bitcoin, which is what's in the news so I can see why it's what most people will harp on, but the bitcoin you know today is not going to be the same bitcoin you will see in 10 years (assuming bitcoin is still the market leader in this space).
- Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
Originally posted by @Matt R.:
It is possible google, amazon, facebook start their own crypto and fast. I know google has many millions invested in some crypto tech companies for example and Microsoft too. If you think about it, look how much Jay helps BP, in the crypto world, he would actually make 8 to 10k a month providing that same content. Same would go with a popular facebooker in theory.
boy I like the sound of 8 to 10k a month for my time on BP ... bout time this was recognized and monetized !!!
I say 8 to 10. It might be more like 20 to 30 on this so called blockchain 2020s. Good luck!
- Broker · Logan, UT · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
This is whole thread has been super informative and really interesting.
I can't help but think it feels a lot like discussions about how the internet was going to change the world circa 1995-1996.
Or how crowd funding was going to change real estate investing circa 2011.
It may be just a bit early to decide which specific applications are going to revolutionize trade.
- 8yIan IppolitoBusiness MemberInvestor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
@Marshall Hooper
>> Ian:"speculators (not investors)"
>> Marshall those are two of the same things. i think you might be trying to differentiate between a "trader" and an "investor".
If you do a Google search on the difference between speculating and investing, you'll see that they are actually 2 very different things.
>>Marhsall: The applications he is speaking about are not effected by the volatility of bitcoin or whatever other crypto-asset you've read about.
He actually specifically talked about the average Joe using cryptocurrency as money in the future. And even using cyber currency in initial coin offerings to raise debt. (Which would be insane for one party or another considering the volatility).
>>Jon: Imagine taking payments directly from tenants using crypto currency with money being received (note waiting to be “posted”) within 4 seconds, no banks involved and little to no fees. Imagine when you are developing properties you don’t need to go to a lender to raise debt or equity capital, but you raise capital through an initial coin offering, similar to crowdfunding, where small investors globally can invest very small amounts because it is so cheap to facilitate the transaction (no lender to drive up fees).
>>Ian: "get their money out of oppressive governments"
>>Marshall: yes, which gives it an intrinsic value in the trillions
No, it really doesn't. And for numerous reasons.
1) Just because someone lives in an oppressive government, doesn't suddenly make all the fundamental flaws of bitcoin/cyber currencies disappear. It's still virtually impossible for a typical average Joe to secure it without making it very easy for a knowledgeable person to steal, for example. They still have to deal with the volatility if they ever hope to spend the money on something. And they still have to deal with the crippling transaction costs.
2) Even if those fundamental flaws didn't exist and magically disappeared tomorrow: bitcoin's intrinsic value has *nothing* to do with the $ amount of transactions conducted on it. It's the equivalent of seeing a $1 trillion check and saying that the intrinsic value of the paper that it's written on must be $1 trillion also! The paper is actually worth less than a penny.
3) Even if number one and number two were not true: the even bigger problem is that Nothing that has an unlimited supply and can be essentially created for free has any value. Yes, bitcoin is limited in #, but if a miracle happened and it was ever really used for money by most people in oppressive governments or anywhere else, then as the price went up, they would simply switch to the next of the 1300 coins, and so on and so on. Again, similar to the value of the paper of the $1 trillion check still being worth less than a penny.
>>Ian: "drug dealers"
>>Marshall: Dad? Is that you?
That sounds like it was supposed to be an insult. You would be a lot more believable and the conversation would be a lot more intelligent if you could try to defend your point of view with facts.
The Real Estate Crowdfunding Review - 8yIan IppolitoBusiness MemberInvestor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
@Marshall Hooper,
>> Ian:"speculators (not investors)">> Marshall those are two of the same things. i think you might be trying to differentiate between a "trader" and an "investor".
If you do a Google search on the difference between speculating and investing, you'll see that they are actually 2 very different things.
>>Marhsall: The applications he is speaking about are not effected by the volatility of bitcoin or whatever other crypto-asset you've read about.
He actually specifically talked about the average Joe using cryptocurrency as money in the future. And even using cyber currency in initial coin offerings to raise debt. (Which would be insane for one party or another considering the volatility).
>>Jon: Imagine taking payments directly from tenants using crypto currency with money being received (note waiting to be “posted”) within 4 seconds, no banks involved and little to no fees. Imagine when you are developing properties you don’t need to go to a lender to raise debt or equity capital, but you raise capital through an initial coin offering, similar to crowdfunding, where small investors globally can invest very small amounts because it is so cheap to facilitate the transaction (no lender to drive up fees).
>>Ian: "get their money out of oppressive governments"
>>Marshall: yes, which gives it an intrinsic value in the trillions
No, it really doesn't. And for numerous reasons.
1) Just because someone lives in an oppressive government, doesn't suddenly make all the fundamental flaws of bitcoin/cyber currencies disappear. It's still virtually impossible for a typical average Joe to secure it without making it very easy for a knowledgeable person to steal, for example. They still have to deal with the volatility if they ever hope to spend the money on something. And they still have to deal with the crippling transaction costs.
2) Even if those fundamental flaws didn't exist and magically disappeared tomorrow: bitcoin's intrinsic value has *nothing* to do with the $ amount of transactions conducted on it. It's the equivalent of seeing a $1 trillion check and saying that the intrinsic value of the paper that it's written on must be $1 trillion also! The paper is actually worth less than a penny.
3) Even if number one and number two were not true: the even bigger problem is that Nothing that has an unlimited supply and can be essentially created for free has any value. Yes, bitcoin is limited in #, but if a miracle happened and it was ever really used for money by most people in oppressive governments or anywhere else, then as the price went up, they would simply switch to the next of the 1300 coins, and so on and so on. Again, similar to the value of the paper of the $1 trillion check still being worth less than a penny.
>>Ian: "drug dealers"
>>Marshall: Dad? Is that you?
That sounds like it was supposed to be an insult. You would be a lot more believable and the conversation would be a lot more intelligent if you could try to defend your point of view with facts.
The Real Estate Crowdfunding Review - Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2017 · 129 posts · 62 votes8y
Originally posted by @Ian Ippolito:
@Marshall Hooper,
>> Ian:"speculators (not investors)">> Marshall those are two of the same things. i think you might be trying to differentiate between a "trader" and an "investor".
If you do a Google search on the difference between speculating and investing, you'll see that they are actually 2 very different things.
>>Marhsall: The applications he is speaking about are not effected by the volatility of bitcoin or whatever other crypto-asset you've read about.
He actually specifically talked about the average Joe using cryptocurrency as money in the future. And even using cyber currency in initial coin offerings to raise debt. (Which would be insane for one party or another considering the volatility).
>>Jon: Imagine taking payments directly from tenants using crypto currency with money being received (note waiting to be “posted”) within 4 seconds, no banks involved and little to no fees. Imagine when you are developing properties you don’t need to go to a lender to raise debt or equity capital, but you raise capital through an initial coin offering, similar to crowdfunding, where small investors globally can invest very small amounts because it is so cheap to facilitate the transaction (no lender to drive up fees).
>>Ian: "get their money out of oppressive governments"
>>Marshall: yes, which gives it an intrinsic value in the trillions
No, it really doesn't. And for numerous reasons.
1) Just because someone lives in an oppressive government, doesn't suddenly make all the fundamental flaws of bitcoin/cyber currencies disappear. It's still virtually impossible for a typical average Joe to secure it without making it very easy for a knowledgeable person to steal, for example. They still have to deal with the volatility if they ever hope to spend the money on something. And they still have to deal with the crippling transaction costs.
2) Even if those fundamental flaws didn't exist and magically disappeared tomorrow: bitcoin's intrinsic value has *nothing* to do with the $ amount of transactions conducted on it. It's the equivalent of seeing a $1 trillion check and saying that the intrinsic value of the paper that it's written on must be $1 trillion also! The paper is actually worth less than a penny.
3) Even if number one and number two were not true: the even bigger problem is that Nothing that has an unlimited supply and can be essentially created for free has any value. Yes, bitcoin is limited in #, but if a miracle happened and it was ever really used for money by most people in oppressive governments or anywhere else, then as the price went up, they would simply switch to the next of the 1300 coins, and so on and so on. Again, similar to the value of the paper of the $1 trillion check still being worth less than a penny.
>>Ian: "drug dealers"
>>Marshall: Dad? Is that you?
That sounds like it was supposed to be an insult. You would be a lot more believable and the conversation would be a lot more intelligent if you could try to defend your point of view with facts.
it's literally an action that an investor takes. an investor speculates that his investment has a better chance of making him money than losing him money. feel free to google it yourself or search Wikipedia for it while you're writing your own wiki page.
i'm not even going to go down the wormhole that is your 1,2 and 3 response. it's not worth my time.
the dad joke was simply that, a joke. the "drug dealer" argument was played out several years ago. fiat currency is used 10000x more than bitcoin for drug transactions. this whole drug dealer argument is completely mute.
- 8yJon Q.Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 713 votesOP
Just release by JP Morgan Chase:
https://www.jpmorgan.com/country/CL/EN/cib/markets-investor-services/blockchain-economics
- Investor · Morrisville, NC · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 673 votes8y
@Jon Q. Very insightful article from JP Morgan. Strategically, I'm sure every major business has assigned someone to at least investigate and provide some initial information to the leadership how business might get impacted. Not every business would make their findings public.
Here is another interesting application of Blockchain in tracking international shipping.
Another area to watch as well is the number of patents being approved around Blockchain Technology. Here, a financial power house is leading the way ahead of a technology company.
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