Pic #1: This is the water I found in one of my rentals that’s about 5’ below grade. This came AFTER we had finished doing a foundation waterproofing around the perimeter of the house! - How could this happen!?
I had to do some brainstorming . I was actually excited this happened!(Find something good about your problem & get excited ). I was about to find the solution to a problem I knew many investors and homeowner HATED dealing with when they encountered it.
Tip: Once you figure out the solution to a problem you now are able to solve it at lower cost in less time.
Pic #2: The solution was to install an interior French drain.This captures the water before it rises to floor level and channels it back out of the home. Note: holes on pipes go facing down not up. Just had them this way to show holes in picture
Pic #3: The room is now dry and ready to be finished & rented.
I'm a newbie and I'm not sure if I found this more comical or educational. I saw the topic and decided to read after my brothers apartment just flooded. @Jorge P. just because you've already experienced success to a certain degree and used professionals that were "licensed and insured" does not make you all knowing on the topic.
Not sure about you but my "good vibes only" attitude would have me remaining humble and not throwing jabs at the people trying to give decent advice. "you learn something every day" is a saying that applies to absolutely everyone in this world and while you may think you're right in your approach to fix your problem, did you stop to think for one second that maybe by slim chance you may have done it incorrectly?
I'm not saying you did it wrong but don't go around like "I'm right you're wrong" just because you THINK you did it right. consider the different points of view, debate, and PROVE that you're right if you want to act like that.
BiggerPockets forums are a meant to be a place for learning and sharing, not whatever this thread turned into. @Joe Splitrock @Matthew Paul Thanks for trying to help someone that doesn't want any helping.
@Joe Splitrock looks like your making a lot of assumptions. If your passionate enough, come down to Flatbush BK & i’ll be happy to show you the property & you can educate me in person?
No need to be smart-mouthed with every response you post. It is not professional at all. I happen to have experience in this particular area, so I offered it for other landlords. I said in my original response that I don't know code in New Jersey. Apparently rain water can be put down the sewer drain there. That is not allowed in many cities. Must just be a regional difference.
The last paragraph of a New Jersey law from 1998
ftp://www.njleg.state.nj.us/19981999/A1000/861_I1.PDF
6 STATEMENT 27 28 This bill would prohibit a person from connecting a sump pump, 29 cellar drain, roof leader, or area drain to a sanitary sewer system. 30 Each entity owning a sanitary sewer system would be required to 31 adopt measures prohibiting such connections and would be 32 empowered to enter upon property to find a violation and to issue a 33 summons for up to $500.00 to a violator of the prohibition. A 34 monetary penalty would only be imposed, however, if a person has 35 been ordered to disconnect an illegal device but failed to do so in a 36 reasonable time. The regulatory and enforcement powers granted in 37 this bill are in addition to any other powers a system owner currently 38 has. 39 This bill is necessary because thousands of illegal sump pump and 40 similar connections exist. These connections are made as a means to 41 discharge basement water, often the result of a high water table. The 42 proper discharge method for this water should be to a stormwater 43 system or to the outside of a building. Vast amounts of water can be 44 discharged into a sanitary sewer system due to these connections. 45 These connections can result in, not only the unnecessary treatment of 46 clean water, but the possible upset or overload of a system which A861 FARRAGHER, ROONEY 11 1 could cause raw and inadequately treated sewage being discharged 2 into the State's waters. 3 An average sump pump discharges approximately 10 gallons per 4 minute, or 14,400 gallons per day. If an average home discharges 300 5 gallons per day, one sump pump can equal the flow of 48 homes. 6 Therefore, each sump pump connected to a sanitary sewer system 7 takes away the capacity that could otherwise be provided to 48 homes. 8 A typical 8" sewer line can serve approximately 500 homes. 9 Therefore, it would take only 10 homes out of the 500 in a 10 development to double the capacity needed in a sewer line. A few 11 sump pumps can thus easily overwhelm a sanitary sewer system.
I'm a newbie and I'm not sure if I found this more comical or educational. I saw the topic and decided to read after my brothers apartment just flooded. @Jorge P. just because you've already experienced success to a certain degree and used professionals that were "licensed and insured" does not make you all knowing on the topic.
Not sure about you but my "good vibes only" attitude would have me remaining humble and not throwing jabs at the people trying to give decent advice. "you learn something every day" is a saying that applies to absolutely everyone in this world and while you may think you're right in your approach to fix your problem, did you stop to think for one second that maybe by slim chance you may have done it incorrectly?
I'm not saying you did it wrong but don't go around like "I'm right you're wrong" just because you THINK you did it right. consider the different points of view, debate, and PROVE that you're right if you want to act like that.
BiggerPockets forums are a meant to be a place for learning and sharing, not whatever this thread turned into. @Joe Splitrock @Matthew Paul Thanks for trying to help someone that doesn't want any helping.
@Mike Bean I Don’t know it all & if you read the messages - I actually admitted that to @Matthew Paul. I’m sorry your interpretation of my messages gave you the wrong impression.
The fact remains. There just isn’t enough information on my post to give anyone the complete certainty of how the work was completed to deem it incorrect or illegal. Those are pretty strong alligations. One may render a hypothetical senario, but there’s still not enough information concrely come to conclusion.
There are a lot of Assumptions being made without a complete assessment of the scope of work involved here. we know what happens when we make ASSumptions.
My Goal:
I freely create this post to share my experience and hopefully help someone. I’m sorry this post gave you the wrong impression of me as your description of who you “think” I am does not aling with reality and who I am.
Good luck in your investing journey my friend :-)
@Joe Splitrock if your looking to educate I won’t stand in your way for I share the same passion. But when your doing it at my expense, I’ll def have something to say.
@Joe Splitrock @Matthew PaulWith all things being equal, I think it’s safe to say we have the same goals in mind “to be of value”. I want to apologize if somehow I interrupted that process for you.
Your advise and tips are very appreciated if it means anything.
With that said - this will be my last post on this forum.
@Matthew Paul the property is not in jersey.
@Jorge P. No assumptions made . Your statements
Rental Property Investor from Jersey City, NJ
replied about 20 hours ago
@Matthew Paul We were lucky to find the sewage line coming into this room when we broke the cement. This allowed us to connect the slopped French drain pipes directly into it. Allowing us not to use a pump.
AND
@Matthew Paul @Luke Ski Gentleman thank you for your inputs. But take some time to read carefully... we did not connect ANY drainage to the sewage line. The garage drainage which WAS connected to the sewage line & coming into the house was CANCELED therefore no drainage water is going into the sewage line. We added a sep new line for the garage drain leading out to the street.
Black or white , it cant be both
I have a lot of experience with this. The exterior foundation waterproofing doesn't hold up when there is a lot of rain and the water table is high. That much water suggests a sump pump / drain tile system is needed.
I tend to not want to finish basements in rentals because of the risk of water.
Since you installed the drain tile, you might as well get a battery back up for the sump pump.
I want to just say that this was an entertaining post :) I don't know much about plumbing but I appreciate the pictures @Jorge P. Thanks for sharing. We have some water issues like this in crawl spaces where I live, so it's nice to see a way to deal with the water.
@Jorge P. Hey bud, you got a pretty rough go of posting here. How about we try this, I’ll ask questions that allow to demonstrate to the group the complete solution you devised and perhaps we can all learn here.
1) When you canceled the original gutter drainage system, where did you redirect the water that drained from the gutter system?
2) For the newly installed system, how far is the wall the drain pipe left the structure from to the street?
3) Did you install backflow preventers?
4) How long did the work take to complete?
Thank you, look forward to your response.
@Luke Ski. Totally agree!!!! I’m in ohio and it is illegal to drain storm water in a sanitary system. That drain pipe that’s on the inside of your basement should drain into a Sump pump system then out the wall back into your storm lines.
This was an amusing series of posts. Picked it up via my usual keyword alerts. I've done many interior french drains. Google searching will show plenty of stuff but to correct any confusion in this post, the french drain should drain into a basin with a sump pump. Cheapest I've ever seen it is about $30/linear foot (very labor intensive) excluding the pump...I would only pay that little if I weren't finishing the basement. In my area, the pump is supposed to discharge into the street (verified multiple times by multiple building department inspectors).
As crazy as it sounds, many of the towns in Hudson County, NJ have combined storm and sanitary systems. The stormwater actually connects into the sanitary system. This whole area is a concrete jungle so you can image the amount of water entering the sanitary system. It's disgusting and illegal by federal and state law but too costly for cities to fix. And yes, when it rains a lot, the sewers backflow like water mains. I've seen it firsthand on numerous occasions in numerous basements with uncovered cleanouts, etc. The situation is getting worse because of higher tides and generally higher levels of water. I'm very wary of finished basements in my area, particularly if you have any floor drains, basement bathrooms, etc. I'm hearing numerous anecdotes from the sewer company about more and more complaints. Nothing like neighborhood sewage mixed with stormwater in your basement...
This thread is great.
@Seth Williams
This is a funny thread. I had a house with simile problem. Sump pump plus the drain solved the problem. The big cost was in breaking the concrete and install the perimeter drain, not in the sump pump which is easy and cheap to do.
I still can not figure out what the OP want to achieve here by draining directly to the sewer line. It may not save him any money, plus it’s a huge risk for the property.
I think the plumber he hired was incompetent.
Finished basements are not a good idea due to risk of flooding from a) high water table, b) poor drainage from exterior of house, c) water heater leak, d) plumbing pipes letting go. e) washing machine hoses bursting, f) basement bathrooms, g) sewage backups from the street, etc.
It's just not worth the risk and mess.
I actually just uncovered a similar problem in one of my flips. I'm very happy I found it now, while the basement is not finished so it didn't damage any drywall, finishes or insulation.
We are getting ready to install the exterior french pipe system and apply the liquid rubber. Hopefully, that solves the problem. Going to try and get it done before next week as we are supposed to get some heavy rain and that will be a great test to see if the effort pays off.
@Matthew Paul We were lucky to find the sewage line coming into this room when we broke the cement. This allowed us to connect the slopped French drain pipes directly into it. Allowing us not to use a pump.
Ummm that's illegal.
This was an amusing series of posts. Picked it up via my usual keyword alerts. I've done many interior french drains. Google searching will show plenty of stuff but to correct any confusion in this post, the french drain should drain into a basin with a sump pump. Cheapest I've ever seen it is about $30/linear foot (very labor intensive) excluding the pump...I would only pay that little if I weren't finishing the basement. In my area, the pump is supposed to discharge into the street (verified multiple times by multiple building department inspectors).
As crazy as it sounds, many of the towns in Hudson County, NJ have combined storm and sanitary systems. The stormwater actually connects into the sanitary system. This whole area is a concrete jungle so you can image the amount of water entering the sanitary system. It's disgusting and illegal by federal and state law but too costly for cities to fix. And yes, when it rains a lot, the sewers backflow like water mains. I've seen it firsthand on numerous occasions in numerous basements with uncovered cleanouts, etc. The situation is getting worse because of higher tides and generally higher levels of water. I'm very wary of finished basements in my area, particularly if you have any floor drains, basement bathrooms, etc. I'm hearing numerous anecdotes from the sewer company about more and more complaints. Nothing like neighborhood sewage mixed with stormwater in your basement...
This is correct.
When I first read this post I was was going to be the first response but didn't want to be a wet blanket. But this was 100% done wrong and I knew it was a disaster when he said it was $1200 to fix. I just had a french drain installed a year ago with 2 sump pumps in a very wet basement (the previous owner had the pump going into the sewer line which is illegal) and it was under $10k but $33 p/ LF.
Then the OP gets arrogrant when people tell him he's incorrect. He will sell it and some sucker is going to have a total disaster on their hands unless the problem happens while he's still the owner.
@Russell Gronsky Just make sure that if it's an exterior french drain that it'll solve the problem of rising water table/ground water that is below the slab. Exterior drains solve problems at the perimeter and outward I think. Many times the water comes from the walls AND below the slab. It just depends on your area. You might need something below the slab to pick up rising water and drain it into a basin before it seeps through cracks. Ask your contractor.
@Kevin K., thanks for the tip. I truly hope, with every once of my being that I don't have water coming up through the slab. That sounds very expensive!
From the several times I've seen the basement flood, was after we get a good amount of rain and the water came in from between where the basement floor meets the cement block wall. It did not come up from the sump pit (existing sump pump is broken so it would not have pumped any water out), which I think would happen if I had a high water table/ground water?
@Jorge P. No assumptions made . Your statements
Rental Property Investor from Jersey City, NJ
replied about 20 hours ago
@Matthew Paul We were lucky to find the sewage line coming into this room when we broke the cement. This allowed us to connect the slopped French drain pipes directly into it. Allowing us not to use a pump.
AND
Rental Property Investor from Jersey City, NJ
replied about 8 hours ago
@Matthew Paul @Luke Ski Gentleman thank you for your inputs. But take some time to read carefully... we did not connect ANY drainage to the sewage line. The garage drainage which WAS connected to the sewage line & coming into the house was CANCELED therefore no drainage water is going into the sewage line. We added a sep new line for the garage drain leading out to the street.
Black or white , it cant be both
I don't think he understands the french drain is considered drainage. Definitely against code for all the reasons stated. No competent licensed plumber would do this. Of course he hasn't said a permit was pulled because it wasn't no way this would fly.
Going to be interesting having sewage seeping up around the walls first time the sewer backs up. Enjoy the sewer smell when the trap runs dry until then. Jorge you should learn some humility and fix this for you and your tenants sake.
@Russell Gronsky Hmm, it's hard to tell if that would determine whether groundwater is an issue. I had water coming in from the same area because the hydrostatic pressure at the wall and below the slab caused water to seep through the cracks which were primarily at the point where the slab met the wall. I also noticed water seeping in from a few parts in the slab where it was dry around it so I knew water was coming up from below the slab at those cracks/openings. One way to test is to make a few holes in various parts of the slab that generally stay dry during the rain and see what happens.
Slabs are generally thin so it's not that expensive or hard to break the slab to install a french drain. All my installs were interior french drains that cost about $30/lf. I got quotes from more reputable guys at $50+/lf. The install consists of making holes at the bottom of the wall, using gravel, pipe, etc...google it and you'll see a common theme among the recommendations. I think exterior installations are more expensive because you need to excavate a lot to get to the footing.
Google exterior vs interior:
@Jorge P. I had something similar done on my personal home. They put the membrane outside the foundation and had the piping and crushed rock buried outside of the house. They also did a French drain inside the house, but the excess water flows to a sump pump that pumps it away from the house.
I did one of these last summer. This video is worth watching. It ran me $30-35 a foot, but I'm in the midwest. Took them 2 days and I only had to remove my baseboards.